House of Commons Hansard Debates for 8 May 1992

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Delors said in 1988 :

"We will not be able to take all the decisions that need to be taken between now and 1995 without moves towards a European Government of one kind or another. In 10 years time 80 per cent. of economic and perhaps even fiscal and social legislation will originate in the Community."

I can only say, "God help us." We will not tolerate socialism through the back door. It is certainly not what the founding fathers of the Community had in mind, never mind what Conservative Members have in mind.

Although the treaty of Rome speaks of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, it is clear from the bulk of the document that, while that aim is political and social, the chief means were to be economic. Economic integration can create prosperity, but it should not be used as an excuse for an act of grand larceny against British sovereignty. The plans to extend the jurisdiction of the already bloated Brussels Commission, the Parliament of Strasbourg and the Luxembourg court are ridiculous. The result will be excessive bureaucracy and bad laws. We can all prosper without the social charter telling us what time we should go to bed.

The common agricultural policy shows us the dangers of allowing the corporatist notions of the Commission to override free market policy. The common agricultural policy accounts for two thirds of the entire Community budget and costs the average European family of four £1,000 a year. We in Britain, as the electorate have displayed on four successive occasions, are acutely aware of the need for less government, less taxation and greater competition, so it is nonsense to sanction the establishment of a highly centralised political union with a powerful federal government in Brussels dictating economic and social priorities to enfeebled member states.

We have seen since Maastricht what can happen in Germany, France, Belgium and Italy. We are the nation with a secure Government. We need no longer listen to what Kohl and Mitterrand are saying. They are dead meat. They are dead in the water : let us not forget that. Europe, east and west, is too diverse, too large and sophisticated, to lend itself to central control. We in Britain have our own traditions and ways of doing things. Europe's prosperity has been built on the nation state. Our success has been due to diversity rather than to administrative and political unity.

We require a union of free states, co-operating as closely as possible, to maintain peace and to ensure economic prosperity. That arrangement should not impinge on issues that are best decided in this House. The EC should learn to keep its nose out of matters that concern United Kingdom national borders. Within two years, perhaps sooner, people will be able to travel freely from one Community country to another. Travellers from all member states will no longer pass through customs.

The Commission further believes that there should be no systematic control of travellers between Community countries, even for the purpose of distinguishing between EC citizens and other nationals. The Commission believes that it should not be necessary for United Kingdom authorities to have any control over a passenger arriving in London from, say, New York, having changed planes in Paris. Such freedom of movement will work only if the Community can maintain credible external frontiers. This is clearly a matter that the Commission has not thought through. If foreign nationals can enter the country freely

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and without control, and are legally entitled to stay here for, say, only a short time, how shall we ensure that they leave? The police and immigration authorities will no longer be able to rely on spotting potential trouble at the border.

To combat the problem, the Commission suggests the greater sharing of information between member states, increased co-operation and large fines on companies employing illegal immigrants. Those are the sort of useless, head-in-the-sand solutions put forward by the Labour party. People who enter Britain under false pretences are, on the whole, never heard of again. They become absorbed in the work force and start a new life, often at the taxpayer's expense. The Commission's attitude is at best complacent and at worst negligent. Statistics show that the population of Europe in the 19th century was one third of the world's population. By 2025, it will be only 6 per cent. The population of the five main southern Mediterranean countries--Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and Turkey--which used to stand at a ratio of 1 : 3 against western Europe, will soon stand at 2 : 3. Growing numbers of people in those countries, frustrated by their lives at home, will simply try to move to western Europe. Germany wants immigration and refugee matters to pass to the Commission. That is hardly surprising, because Germany is the major destination of people seeking asylum. It received 200,000 applicants last year alone, and the right to asylum is formally guaranteed in its constitution. Unable to win all-party agreement for changes in asylum rights, Kohl hopes that the EC may break the deadlock by taking immigration policy out of German hands and giving it instead to the Community institutions.

If there is a final right of appeal in immigration cases in the European Court, the Home Office will no longer have the final say over deportations. In contrast, the United Kingdom has instituted a hard but fair immigration system. There is no reason why we should relinquish our sovereignty on the issue because of difficulties encountered in Bonn. Far from capitulating, we should strengthen our internal safeguards against bogus asylum seekers. I stress the word "bogus", because genuine asylum seekers will always be welcome in the United Kingdom, as is our tradition. But cheats will not. The number of people applying for asylum in the United Kingdom has risen dramatically, from 5,000 in 1988 to nearly 50,000 last year. The problem is made worse by the disturbing reduction in the percentage of applicants who are recognised as refugees under the conditions laid down in the 1951 United Nations convention on refugees. From 1979-83, on average, 60 per cent. of applicants complied with the benchmark. Last year, the figure went down to 25 per cent.

We need to worry not about legitimate asylum seekers but about those who come here on a visit, to become students, or to visit parents or friends, and who have no intention of leaving. Those are the men and women we seek to stop. They are freeloaders, eager to maintain the good life that they have experienced on their vacation. They seek to circumvent immigration rules and procedures

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passed and approved by the House, thus putting a huge strain on the resources of the United Kingdom Immigrants Advisory Service. As a result, only 4,000 decisions were made in 1990 compared with more than 7,000 in the previous year. That discrepancy arises because of the problems of handling increasing numbers of bogus applications. The overall backlog now runs at 60,000 cases, which hurts genuine applicants whose proper assimilation into this country is then delayed because we cannot decide whether those 60,000 people should be here.

It is worth remembering that, despite the Opposition's scandalous smears, the Government have made it perfectly clear that, as a signatory to the United Nations convention, they will not return refugees to countries where they fear persecution. However, since 1975, the number of applicants for asylum in Europe has doubled every three years. More than 500,000 applied in 1991, and who knows what the figures will be in 1992-94? Millions of east Europeans--7 million from Russia alone--seek visas to come to the west.

Mr. Tony Banks : Not to come here.

Mr. Evans : The hon. Gentleman says not to come here, but 800,000 of them want to come here. Who can blame them? They want to taste the good life. Let us not forget that 75 per cent. of asylum seekers already live here. They have come here for their holidays and want to stay and sign on-- no problem. There is increasing evidence of multiple applications being made for benefits--129 were recently made by one person. False identities are being assumed for the purpose of making fraudulent social security claims, which are estimated at 100 million. That number may be 500 million or even 1,000 million, who knows?

Mr. Tony Banks : It could be two trillion.

Mr. Evans : It could be--no one knows.

Mr. Banks : Least of all the hon. Member for Welwyn, Hatfield (Mr. Evans).

Mr. Evans : I shall conclude now, as I think that other Members wish to speak.

Faced with such problems, the Government are right to commit more resources and speed up the scrutiny procedures for asylum seekers. I was delighted to learn from the Gracious Speech that the Asylum Bill is to be revived. In addition, I recommend that the Government should consider extra measures for inclusion in the final legislation. Thousands of people come to Britain under false pretences, never to return to their country of origin. Those families draw social security benefits to which they have made no contribution. Would it not be a good idea if asylum seekers and their families received no state benefit until they had paid five years of taxes? Applicants should be placed in secure accommodation, not allowed to leapfrog people who have been waiting for houses for years. Many constituents who see that happening become upset.

Applicants should be placed in accommodation while their claims are being considered, not in permanent residences. It may be worth commissioning disused army camps for the purpose. I hope that the Government will

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consider introducing a moratorium, and not allowing anyone into the country for two years so that we can deal with the 60,000 backlog. We must not become the dumping ground for the world's freeloaders and bogus asylum seekers. We are a compassionate nation, but we should not allow our immigration policy to become a joke throughout the world. At present, people are told, "Get to the United Kingdom where you will be paid £100 a week for doing nothing." We taxpayers are not prepared to foot that bill now or in the future. Charity begins at home.

1.37 pm

Mr. Piara S. Khabra (Ealing, Southall) : I congratulate you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on your appointment.

I was amused to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans) and thought that he was going to ask me whether I could produce my passport.

I have been in this country since 1959. I pay tribute to my predecessor. We used to be great friends, but when we finally parted company we were no longer friends. Ealing, Southall has been a Labour constituency since the end of the war in 1945. I am proud and privileged to represent a constituency in the west of London, part of which has been known as the queen of suburbs. It has a unique character ; it is international, with constituents from all over the world. It is multicultural, multilingual and multi-faith. During the past almost 30 years, my constituency has, independently, made much progress and, in the past 13 years, it has received no support from the Tory Government. For many years, my constituency has contributed to the development of the economy.

My constituents will not tolerate racism of any kind. In 1979 my constituency hit the international headlines. The then Home Secretary will recall that there was some social unrest there, and that many people were arrested, charged and sentenced. Now, people of all races live together there in peace and harmony and there is no place for racists in the constituency. My constituents are united in their determination not to let the National Front or any other racists enter the constituency. We have the strength to resist racism ; my constituency is proud of being multicultural.

Many jobs have been lost in the constituency in the past five or six years due to the policies of the Government, who encouraged industry to move out of the area and to relocate in cheaper areas. Thousands of people have been affected and many of them have lost their jobs and their homes because they could no longer pay the mortgages. Many have become homeless, and businesses have collapsed because of Tory policies.

The Tories have been telling the country that the recession will end, and my constituents have been waiting for that end. But it does not seem to be ending and many people are worried that they will lose their jobs, that they will be unable to educate their children properly or afford good medical care for them. For instance, the Government have encouraged schools to opt out. I am pleased that some of the schools in my constituency have not opted out, although some have. I am not in favour of education only for those who can afford it, or of selective education. Education should be the responsibility of the state and of democratically elected local authorities. For some years I have been trying to unite the community, and I have been successful, in that the

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indigenous and the ethnic minority communities have been living in peace. I have noticed over a period of 20 years that the Tories have failed to encourage ethnic minority communities to stand on their own feet, to develop their own businesses and to enjoy a good standard of living.

I have also noticed during the past year that the Government have tried to change the criteria for section 11 funding. As a result, people have suffered ; colleges have closed and good courses have been lost. My constituents feel deeply distressed by that. I do not intend to discuss problems of an international nature today, but I will point out that I was born in India before it was divided. I lived through the period of riots in India which were caused by the British Government's colonial policy. Millions of people were murdered and there were race riots. The division of India in 1947 was also the result of Britain's colonial policy. Initially, two states were created and we later saw the creation of another. I do not favour fundamentalist politics : I stand for secularism and democracy. I would not like this country to interfere in the affairs of any sovereign, independent country, but I hope that Britain will do what it can to bring parties together to address issues such as those that exist in Kashmir. That matter must be sorted out by Pakistan and India and Britain should not interfere in any way, directly or indirectly.

Human rights issues arise in many parts of the world and they also arise in this country. I enjoy being a Member of Parliament and hope that I shall learn more and more and will be able to contribute to future debates. I intend to be fully involved in the politics of this country.

1.46 pm

Mrs. Ann Clywd (Cynon Valley) : I join hon. Members who have congratulated you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We look forward to your long tenure in the Chair and admire your natty style in ties. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Khabra) on an erudite and well-balanced maiden speech which was far more typical of the majority view of Britain's people than that of the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), who has now left the Chamber and who sounded as though he was suffering from a bad bout of indigestion and too much reading of The Sun. We look forward to many speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Southall, who spoke about tolerance and the richness of the multicultural community that he represents.

I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) whose vast experience of foreign affairs will be of considerable benefit to the Opposition. We look forward to much participation by him in debates of this kind. He noted that the commitment to NATO was not accompanied by support for the kind of defence and security policy review that was sought by so many of our allies at the end of the cold war.

My hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) made his usual passionate plea for settlement of the Cyprus question. Like all of us who have taken a particular interest in Cyprus and have visited that country several times, I join him in calling for the Government to play a more proactive role.

For 13 years, massive cuts in Britain's aid spending, a lack of real action to tackle the debt crisis, a refusal to address the deterioration in the terms of trade for the poorest countries, and laggardly support for key

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international institutions have contributed to the growth of poverty and the impoverishment of many nations. The programme outlined in the Gracious Speech does nothing to change those divisive and damaging policies. The programme fails to address the fundamental challenges confronting the world. It provides no indication of how Britain can improve its contribution to the creation of a more just, equitable and prosperous world.

An increasingly interdependent world needs Governments who care about all the world's citizens. We need a Government with vision who are willing to take action to eradicate poverty and conflict and to promote peace, and who will work for human rights and for development and environmental protection. The Labour party would have provided that vision if it had won the general election.

The gap between the rich and the poor nations has doubled in the past 30 years. The richest fifth of the world population now receive 150 times the income of the poorest fifth. How can any country that fails to make that a top priority in foreign policy claim concern for global security or for humanity? How can we stand idly by when every 2.4 seconds of every day throughout the year a child dies somewhere in the world because of poverty? The challenges of global warming, AIDS, refugees, terrorism, wars, civil strife and the drugs trade know no boundaries. They confront us all. As Susan George so aptly commented,

"there may be a first and third class on the Titanic, but we all have the same need to navigate away from disaster."

The Conservative manifesto for the general election mentioned "taking responsibility for Britain". It failed, however, to articulate any concept of Britain's international obligations. As a result, the Conservative party's programme for government is weak. It is lacking in substance and vision and it is fundamentally dishonest.

I intend to concentrate on some specific areas, and I shall begin with aid. Successive Conservative Governments have refused even to set a timetable to meet the United Nations aid target of 0.7 per cent. of gross national product. Only a couple of days ago, the United Kingdom was blocking a plan for EC member states to pledge 0.7 per cent. by the year 2000. The Gracious Speech tells us that the "Government will maintain a substantial aid programme". The same hackneyed phrase was used in 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988 and 1987. It has been used every year from as far back as 1981 the same rhetoric, the same cliche s, the same old story.

In 1979, the Conservative downgraded the Ministry of Overseas Development and replaced it with the Overseas Development Administration, an annex to the Foreign Office, and the marginalisation of development issues in Government decision-making continues. Instead of promoting world development at a time when it is essential to do so, the Prime Minister has demoted overseas development by refusing to have the Minister for Overseas Development in the House of Commons, let alone in the Cabinet. He cannot give two thirds of the world an extra 10 minutes a month for ODA questions. That is how much he cares.

In the past 13 years the aid budget has been cut by 17 per cent. in real terms. Last year, the Minister for Overseas Development told the House that she did not like it any

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more than anyone else, but she failed to do anything to prevent cuts taking place. There was no principled resignation. Instead, there was just hot-footing it down the corridor, only days after being rejected by the voters of Wallasey, to wrap herself in ermine while pontificating on the poverty of two thirds of humanity. I ask right hon. and hon. Members to imagine two pictures : first, the poverty, stench and squalor of a Delhi slum ; secondly, a noble Lady, ermine clad, in a glittering, tiara-d and perfumed other place, presiding over a massive decline in Britain's aid budget.

Mr. David Howell : Will the hon. Lady give way?

Mrs. Clwyd : From being the second largest donor of the seven major industrial countries in 1979, we are now the second smallest. As a percentage of GNP, our aid is now the lowest ever on record at just 0.27 per cent.--what a disgrace. [Interruption.] Conservative Members who are muttering should feel ashamed that our overseas aid is at its lowest level ever. If the Government had maintained aid at 0.51 per cent. of GNP, as it was under the last Labour Government, people in Africa and Asia would be better off by more than £10 billion today.

Mr. Hurd : It is the hon. Lady who should be ashamed at making such a personal attack. I have never heard her say such a thing before. I can only assume that she is jealous of the reputation that, as she well knows, my right hon. Friend Lady Chalker has built up, especially in Africa where my right hon. Friend is well known, respected and loved.

Mrs. Clwyd : Unfortunately, the electors of Wallasey did not love Lady Chalker enough to elect her to the House. It is a disgrace that a Minister who is, or should be, accountable for one of the large-spending Department budgets--as large as the budget of the Department of Trade and Industry--is not here in the House of Commons to answer for that budget and for her policies. The Foreign Secretary's feeble defence of that position is just not good enough. Sadly, not only the quantity but the quality of aid has been cut in the past 13 years. Commercial considerations have taken priority over poverty reduction. In 1989, only 2 per cent. of Britain's bilateral aid to Africa was used to meet local costs. We should be able to improve that ratio and boost development through increased trade. For many countries, an increase in carefully targeted assistance would greatly benefit millions of people.

In the Horn of Africa, there are now more than 23 million people facing severe food shortages. In southern Africa, the effects of the worst drought for 50 years and of famine are undermining recent progress towards peace and democracy in Zambia, in Angola, in Mozambique and in other countries. Increasing Britain's contribution to food aid and transportation assistance, ensuring that the EC implements its proposals for 680,000 tonnes of food aid rapidly and efficiently and ensuring that the UN is given every encouragement and sufficient funds to promote food security and peace, and to protect refugees are just some of the measures urgently needed.

An immediate reversal of the Government's decision to boycott the second special programme for Africa of the International Fund for Agricultural Development, one of the few programmes effectively addressing the long-term causes of famine by working with poor farmers, especially

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women, and addressing environmental problems is also urgently required. Why will the Government not reconsider their decision not to fund that programme? Surely it is one of the best ways to prevent famine in future.

With regard to debt and trade, according to the United Nations Development Programme between 1983 and 1989 the poorest countries in the world paid to us, the rich, $242 billion more than we gave them in aid. Who would have believed that a country such as the Philippines, which in 1990 received $1.3 billion in aid, paid back more than twice that amount in debt service? In 1990, Britain took more in debt repayments from third-world countries than it gave in aid.

The Government have made a lot of noise about their proposals for debt reduction--the Trinidad terms. However, it is worth bearing it in mind that even if the initiative had been implemented fully--it has not been--in line with the original proposal, it would have resulted in only 1 per cent. of total third-world debt being written off. Even that very limited proposal has not been implemented fully. What about the other 99 per cent ? Perhaps the Minister will tell the House which countries have benefited from the Trinidad terms and the corresponding amounts of debt that have been written off. The Government have refused to take any steps to encourage the cancellation of debt owed by poor countries to the commercial banks. They have blocked proposals for reducing debt owed to the European Community. They have refused to take action to reduce debt owed by the poorest countries to other multilateral agencies.

For many poor countries, trade is as important as the problem of debt, and certainly more important than aid. One might have expected that a Government who claim to be concerned about security in the world, and a country that has many historic and continuing links with the poorer countries of the Commonwealth, would be more vigorous in examining the effects on the poorer countries of the Single European Act and the current GATT negotiations. Can the Minister tell us what progress has been made in that direction?

I refer now to development and its impact on the environment. In June, at the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development, representatives of more than 150 nations and countless non-governmental organisations from around the world will gather in Brazil. The Government's programme makes no mention of the specific additional measures, including additional funds, that the Government will make available to tackle the problems of development and the environment.

Many British people are tired of hearing Government rhetoric about taking a lead on environmental issues. Perhaps the Minister will tell us today exactly what proposals the Government will make to encourage the OECD donor countries to meet the UN aid target, or cancel a greater proportion of debt owed by the poorest countries. Do the Government have any proposals for enhancing technical assistance for poorer countries? How will they ensure that UNCED agrees a programme that meets the long-term needs of the poorest countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America? What proposals will Britain put forward to ensure that the needs of the

poorest--especially women--are high on the UNCED agenda?

Why the deafening silence from the Government after my old colleague Mr. Carlo Ripa di Meana threatens to shun the Rio conference? Is not Ripa di Meana saying

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what most of the participants from the third world are saying--that unless the rich north is prepared to discuss and fund increasing aid flows from the north to the south, to transfer technologies, to put its own environmental house in order and to dismantle trade barriers, why should the poor south curtail its population, development and growth for the sake of the north's environmental demands? Those are the pivotal questions on which the success of the earth summit rests.

Instead of the easily impressed Baroness Chalker hotfooting it round the world with kings, queens, princes and princesses, why does not she roll up her ermine-trimmed sleeves, go to Washington and thrash out these issues with President Bush?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Order. I ask the hon. Lady to recognise that, while it is perfectly appropriate for Members of this House to be made the subject of strong political debate, it is not appropriate for those outside the House, especially Members of another place, to be the subject of such treatment.

Mrs. Clwyd : Lest you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, should feel that I have been somewhat flippant in my remarks about the noble Baroness, I should explain that it is because she is in the other place rather than here at the Dispatch Box as an elected representative, taking part--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I hope that I can help the hon. Lady. That point is perfectly acceptable. It is the personalisation of the matter that is not acceptable.

Mrs. Clwyd : Although I do not quite understand that ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I bow to your feelings in the matter. Nevertheless, the lack of a Minister in this House responsible for these matters downgrades the importance of overseas development and is an insult to democratic accountability.

I now refer to the former Soviet Union, and to Russia in particular. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) noted, the Government said little about the former Soviet Union. According to the Financial Times yesterday, Russia is to adopt a convertible currency by the end of July, underpinned by a stabilisation fund. Will the Minister confirm that the stabilisation fund, if it were ever used, would have to be repaid by Russia? Has that consideration diluted the conditionality that International Monetary Fund negotiators agreed with Ministers in the Russian Government?

To what extent is the stabilisation fund dependent on the Russian authorities controlling wage and price inflation? Did the discussion on setting up the stabilisation fund include undertakings on the question of food supply arrangements within Russia? To what extent do the Government believe that undertakings given by the Russian Government on wage inflation can be upheld? How does a stabilisation fund for the rouble and for Russia interact with the use of roubles in other members of the Commonwealth of Independent States? Could not irresponsible economic mismangement in other states undermine an agreement with the Russian financial authorities?

Is there any truth in the rumour that the rate of convertibility has been pitched so low to avoid any attempted currency speculation? The IMF agreement raises many questions involving balance of payments

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support or the stabilisation funds. I am surprised that so little information on those important issues has been given to the wider public.

As the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) said, elections will be taking place in Iraqi Kurdistan against a background of continuing and escalating intimidation from Saddam Hussein. Reference is made in the Gracious Speech to the Government's insistence on Iraqi compliance with UN resolutions. The Foreign Secretary referred to that again today. What are the Government doing to ensure that the Iraqis comply with the resolutions?

The economic blockade of Kurdistan continues. Public officials are not being paid, and much of the area is mined. The Kurds do not have the resources to allow de-mining to take place. The Kurdish representatives whom I met yesterday want to know about the discussions allegedly taking place between the United Nations and Iraq about the potential use of oil revenues. They want absolute assurances that the revenues will not be released unless the UN has total control over their use. They argue that UN resolutions provide for the use of oil money for humanitarian purposes. Therefore, if the money is released, they believe that it should be made available in part to the new Kurdish administration which will be set up following the election. That has implications for the United Nations and its observance of national sovereignty, but perhaps the proposition should be considered.

I wish now to consider international co-operation. A few days ago, Mr. Gorbachev reiterated the need for concerted international action under the aegis of the United Nations to deal with a variety of problems confronting the world. Despite all their talk of supporting the UN, the Government's record has been dismal. It shows a lack of commitment to internationalism.

Since 1979, the Government have cut funding in real terms for key UN agencies including the much-respected United Nations children's fund by 44 per cent., the UN development programme by 57 per cent. and the UN development fund for women by 65 per cent. They withdrew from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation and are still keeping the United Kingdom out of it, despite substantial reforms.

In Europe, the prospect of greater integration and co-operation over the next few years can transform the lives of millions of citizens and ensure that an enlarged European Community becomes a more effective institution in promoting peace, democracy, environment and development world wide. Significant steps could be taken under the British presidency of the Community later this year, but there is little in the Government's programme to suggest that they will take such initiatives.

I disagreed with the Minister's response to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell). Human rights must be discussed by all international institutions. The issue cannot be put on and off like a party frock that one takes out of the wardrobe on high days and holidays. It should be an integral part of all our dealings. The Foreign Secretary tried to persuade us that there is no great difference between the political parties on foreign affairs. In fact, there is a world of difference. The Opposition recognise the importance of human rights and

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justice and paying more than lip service to them. We recognise the UN's opportunities to resolve conflicts, deal with disasters, promote prosperity and co-ordinate international action to protect the global environment. We believe it to be both morally right and in our common interest to help not only the poor in our own country but the poorer nations of the world. That is a fundamental difference between the Conservative party and the Labour party.

2.10 pm

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones) : I join right hon. and hon. Members who have congratulated you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on presiding over a debate for the first time.

I am sure that the House would want me to begin by referring to the two maiden speeches from the Opposition Benches. The hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) will not object, nor will any of his hon. Friends, when I say that we miss our former colleague, who was a stalwart member of the Defence Select Committee and of the IPU. The hon. Gentleman himself told the House that he will have to tread a careful path between being controversial and boring. He did that with success and modesty. He also showed the House that there is more to Essex man than the rather patronising caricature that we are sometimes given. We look forward to hearing from the hon. Gentleman in future foreign affairs debates.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Khabra) on his excellent maiden speech. I suspect that his arrival in the House will be part of a growing pattern of members of ethnic minorities coming here, and that will be welcomed by both sides of the House. We are pleased to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Deva) on this side. We remember his predecessor with affection. I am sure that the whole House will not mind my saying that I hope that, unlike his predecessor, the hon. Member for Southall is not an amateur cartoonist.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) led the debate for the Opposition and reminded the House of the remarkable changes that the world has seen over the past five years. There was an underlying poignancy to his analysis, because I think that he senses that he himself is shortly to be a part of those great changes. He is a great cinema lover. As he "panned across the landscape", "flashed back" and used "close up", if I may use the terms that he used in the chapter titles of his charming book, "My Life in the Silver Screen", I remind him and the House that the last chapter of that book is entitled "Fade Out". In that final chapter he wrote :

"All the big stars, the last survivors of the days of stardom as it once was, were ageing, with no newcomers to take their places." I suspect that that is as much a reflection of the Labour party today as it was of the cinema when the right hon. Gentleman wrote that book. As those great changes sweep him aside, we wish him well as he rides off into the sunset-- a Mancunian Gary Cooper--leaving our debates behind.

Mr. Kaufman : Far from riding off into anywhere, I have just been re -elected by my constituents with the largest majority ever given to anybody in the history of my constituency. I intend to regard that as a strong base for my activities in the House.

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Mr. Garel-Jones : I hope that, when it comes to electing the shadow Cabinet, the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues in the Labour party give him the same warm endorsement as he has been given by his constituents.

The right hon. Gentleman and other right hon. and hon. Members raised several questions, and I shall do my best to answer all of them. Obviously, in the short time available to me, I will not be able to cover every point, but I shall seek to cover the principal ones. The right hon. Member for Gorton and other hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), spoke about the former Soviet Union and what we need to do there both as a country and in the various international groups to which we belong.

A sum of $50 billion of assistance has already been committed to the former Soviet Union, including $24 billion from the Group of Seven. The United Kingdom can claim to have led the way in championing Russia's entry into the International Monetary Fund and the World bank. Indeed, Moscow asked the United Kingdom to co-ordinate its application. Those are substantial commitments. Britain's commitment is a serious one. However, I recognise that, as the right hon. Member for Gorton, my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford and the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) implied, we shall have to watch the position carefully. The right hon. Member for Gorton also referred to nuclear weaponry in the former Soviet Union and to the nuclear weapons policy of the United Kingdom. My right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford is also increasingly anxious about nuclear weaponry in the former Soviet Union and keeps a close watch on it. The Gracious Speech commits Britain to maintaining its minimum nuclear deterrent. Even the Labour party manifesto conceded that Britain needs a minimum deterrent while other countries keep theirs. The old threat has all but disappeared, but risks and uncertainties have taken the place of the manifest threat that we formerly faced.

There are still more than 27,000 nuclear weapons in the former Soviet Union. The House will agree that the best response is to help the former Soviet republics to get rid of their massive surplus before we consider what to do with our minimum deterrent. That is why we have provided Russia with special containers and vehicles for the secure transport of nuclear weapons at an overall cost of £30 million. With our partners in the European Community and the United States, we have set up a centre for former nuclear scientists to be retrained and perhaps redeployed.

The right hon. Member for Gorton and my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) mentioned Cyprus and Kashmir. The right hon. Member for Gorton upbraided us a little about working in the marginals. I suggest that working in the marginals might in part account for the fact that we are sitting on this side of the House and he is on the other. He was not averse to working in the marginals. Indeed, the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Vaz) seems to have identified at least four different Labour party positions on Kashmir. I have a number of Kashmiris in my constituency. I take a close interest in the matter. I can assure the hon. Member for Southall that Her Majesty's Government have no intention of interfering. But we stand ready to help if asked to do so by the Governments of India and Pakistan.

As one would expect from the Chairman in the previous Parliament of the Select Committee on Foreign and

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Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford referred to the European Economic Community and the treaty signed at Maastricht which the Government will invite the House to approve through legislation shortly. My right hon. Friend put his finger on the essence of the Maastricht treaty. My right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary did not achieve a "victory" at Maastricht--one hesitates to talk in confrontational terms. For the past 20 or 30 years, debate in the Community has proceeded on the assumption on which the Liberal party proceeds, that we are moving towards a finalite politique involving a single structure built around a single treaty.

The principal achievement of my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary was to prevent the debate from being brought to a conclusion and to open up alternatives for intergovernmental co-operation in foreign policy, security policy and interior justice policy. The hon. Member for Ilford, South made an excellent maiden speech, but I do not agree that we must choose between NATO and the Western European Union. That is not the choice. The choice is to build up a European dimension through the WEU that complements and strengthens NATO.

Picking up the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford and the anxieties expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), I must say that this is not a great battle but an intellectual discussion. What we achieved at Maastricht was the start of turning the tide and the chance to persuade some of our partners to consider the proposition that co-operation in foreign policy through intergovernmental consensus is not qualitatively worse than a decision taken by the Twelve through qualified majority voting on other matters where the Community has competence. That is the banner under which we need to march in the coming three or four years as we move towards 1996.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) made an interesting speech about the Community and I know that he takes a close interest in it. He said--I think that it is official Opposition policy--that he supports the ratification of the Maastricht treaty. Of course, he expressed the doubts and the anxieties of the Labour party, of which the House is well aware, about the total package, in particular the social dimension and regional policy. No doubt, during our debates on the Bill, he and his hon. Friends will make those points. I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber on being returned to this House with the smallest percentage vote of any Member. My right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North enjoyed teasing the hon. Gentleman on that pleasing irony, as the hon. Gentleman's views on proportional representation are well known to the House. He made an interesting speech and we agree with him about the emerging importance of the United Nations in the affairs that we seek to confront.

There is a matter that is causing my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary some concern, and the House may want to consider it. It is the way in which the large number of institutions to which we belong--the United Nations, NATO, WEU, G7 and so on--need to adjust to the new world that the right hon. Member for Gorton described. The role of those institutions is one to which the Government and hon. Members interested in foreign affairs should pay attention.

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I am sorry that, briefly, I was not in the House when the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) spoke. I am aware of his concern about Cyprus. He and my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) frequently come to see me about that problem. I can say in all honesty that their concern, the pressure that they exert upon us and the contacts that they have inside Cyprus are of definite assistance in our discussions with the Turkish and Greek Governments and the various parties in Cyprus. We are grateful for the interest that the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend take in this matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Arnold) made a wide-ranging and interesting speech, to which the House listened with care. He spoke about the events in Peru, but was heckled by the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). We are concerned about what has happened in Peru and we have suspended the balance of payments assistance that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister promised President Fujimori when he came to this country. While deploring events in Peru, we must recognise the background against which they have taken place. We must do other than beating our breasts. I recall the story of the Duc de Engheim being shot. When told about it, Talleyrand said, in effect, "That is certainly a serious crime but, worse than that, it may have been a mistake."

Those of us who regard ourselves as friends of Peru should tell that country, through the European Community and the Organisation of American States, "It is a mistake. How can we help you to rectify the mistake as soon as possible?" That is what we shall be seeking to do through the Community in its dialogue with Latin American countries at the Rio group meetings.

I am reluctant to respond to the speech of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd), not least because it was out of kilter with all the other contributions to the debate-- [Interruption.] I see a number of her hon. Friends assenting to that proposition. It was a pity that she made that type of speech. Hansard should note that fact because we hope that, especially in foreign affairs, that type of attitude will not be taken. I say this in the knowledge that our debates will include banter, and at the outset of my remarks I teased the right hon. Member for Gorton.

I hope that, on reflection, the hon. Member for Cynon Valley will agree that her remarks were unfortunate. As you pointed out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, she is entitled to upbraid the Government, if she considers that to be necessary, for example because the Minister responsible

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