House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 May 1992

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The burning of orimulsion is another matter that should have been considered before the Bill came before the House. It is a dirty fuel. The Minister should have taken action and I hope that it is not too late for him to use his influence to ban it.

The Minister should bear in mind the cost of gas-fired power stations. Perhaps he can confirm that 40 combined gas cycle power stations are in the pipeline and are likely to be on stream by 1996-97. I understand that that number of power stations is likely to produce about 15,000 MW, which would displace an enormous amount of coal. One thousand megawatts equals 3 million tonnes of coal and, as a rule of thumb, the mining of 1 million tonnes of coal employs 1,000 miners. If it is true that 15,000 MW of gas- fired electricity will be on stream by 1996-97, we are talking about the displacement of 45 million tonnes of coal, and the loss of 45,000 jobs. The Minister should also bear that in mind. I hope that he will use his influence to ensure that the cost criterion is applied when we consider gas -fired power stations.

On the subject of nuclear power stations, Conservative Members have mentioned subsidies and their disadvantages. I hope that the House is aware that we subsidise nuclear power and that each of us pays 11 per cent. more on our electricity bills to subsidise that industry. That annual subsidy runs at between £1.2 billion and £1.6 billion. That is ironic because if that subsidy were paid to the mining industry, it would be able to give its coal free to the generators and still make a profit. However, we are using such a subsidy to support an inefficient source of electricity generation--the nuclear industry. The coal industry in Britain must be maintained at a reasonable size, a size that will sustain employment in the industry and the mining communities, and ensure that we are able to provide the needs of electricity generation. If we do not take such steps, we will be totally dependent on imported energy sources, which will lead to a considerable increase in the balance of payments deficit--by, perhaps, £3 billion a year. It will also lead to an alarming expansion in opencast mining. In some reports, it has been suggested that opencast mining may expand to account for up to 25 million tonnes of production. That would mean that, every time we turned a corner in our constituencies, we would be likely to see a great opencast mine. In addition, as has been explained, the dash for gas also presents great problems.

We must consider the cost of privatisation. Conservative Members have spoken of the great benefits of privatisation and how it helps to generate wealth. Let us consider the costs of privatising the coal industry. The Government have been closely associated with N. M. Rothschild, which has produced two reports. The first suggested that the liabilities--current and historic--may cost the Government up to £6 billion. At the same time as paying for those liabilities, the Government will be faced with the industry's considerable continuing debt, possibly in excess of £500 million.

That means that we will have to pay out an enormous amount before we even consider what revenue will be generated by the sale of the industry. Again, the Bill is totally ambigious on that point. Without having some idea of the industry's eventual size, we will be unable to evaluate the amount of revenue that may result from its sale. The Rothschild report appears to suggest that the revenue obtained from the sale may be less than £2 billion,

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yet we will have to pay out more than £6 billion in liabilities. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that, because the costs of privatisation are likely to be enormous.

Other factors that must be considered--they were raised by the hon. Member for Finchley (Mr. Booth)--are safety standards in the industry. It was pleasing to hear him pay a compliment to the mining unions, which have fought tirelessly to ensure that people injured in mining receive reasonable compensation. At the same time, the unions have used their endeavours to ensure that, as a result of section 123 of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954, the workmen's inspectors have done much to reduce greatly the accident levels in the industry. That work was so good that, between 1970 and 1972, Lord Robens, as a result of his experience in the mining industry, took cognisance of the fact that it had kept the number of accidents low by virtue of the involvement of the men in the mines. His report, in 1972, became the basis for the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974, which extended to workers in factories and other establishments the same opportunity to help to eliminate hazards from the shop floor. I hope that the Minister will take note of the way in which the mineworkers unions, with the help of section 123 of the Mines and Quarries Act, have been able to work with their safety inspectors to reduce accidents. I hope that he will ensure that the same standards will apply in a private coal sector, should that come about, so that accident rates do not increase.

It is alarming to compare the current accident rate in the private mining sector--there are roughly 160 private collieries in Britain--with that in the public sector. I hope that the Minister will confirm that the accident rate in the deep-mining private sector is eight times higher than that in the public sector. That statistic causes Labour Members great concern. We hope that the Minister will make a great endeavour to ensure that the legislation is applied in such a way that we are able to maintain high safety standards in the private sector. The recent accident in a private mine in Nova Scotia in Canada showed that any deviation from high standards is likely to result in a horrific accident. Therefore, it is essential that safety in mines is the Minister's paramount objective.

I also hope that the Minister will consider closely an industrial relations formula for application in the future mining industry--by that, I mean a formula which is similar to that in section 46 of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act 1946. That imposed upon the industry conciliation and negotiation procedures which embraced the whole industry from national to local level. I hope that the Minister will consider similar industrial relations procedures for the future industry, because they ended much of the bitterness that the industry inherited at the end of the war. From 1947 until today, there have been only three national strikes in the coal mining industry, and that shows that the conciliation procedures brought about good industrial relations. I hope that the Minister will consider implementing similar conciliation procedures in whatever private mining sector comes about.

I hope also that the Minister will consider establishing consultation arrangements alongside the conciliation procedures so that we can exploit the great experience of the work force so that their ideas can be used to make the industry more efficient. Since the war, since particularly 1974, £12 billion has been invested in the industry and the consultation procedures were used to harness the ideas of

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the men to make the industry much more efficient. That shows the great benefit of having consultation procedures which allow the men to participate with management in achieving the objectives of high productivity and harmonious relationships.

I hope that the Minister will consider my points and perhaps confirm whether he will consider such conciliation and consultation procedures for whatever future industry emerges from the future proposals. The industrial relations structure is one of the most important that he must bear in mind.

8.19 pm

Mr. Simon Burns (Chelmsford) : Thank you for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I add to those of other hon. Members my congratulations on your appointment, which gives many of us great pleasure?

I know that many of my constituents will be interested in the Bill and particularly in that part that deals with British Rail, because it is the first course before the main Bill that the Government will bring before the House later in the year, and that will be of special interest to my constituents. My constituency has one of the largest commuting populations into London. People travel to Liverpool Street station, from where they go to work both in the west end and in the City.

Unfortunately, all too often, my constituents have suffered because, until 15 years ago, East Anglia was an economic backwater before the improvements and developments in the local economy. That meant that the area was the last in line for investment in, for example, new rolling stock. Until relatively recently, other parts of Network SouthEast passed on old rolling stock, which worked until it collapsed and finished its natural working life. That caused a great deal of resentment and many uncomfortable journeys.

The problems with which my constituents have to cope they are not necessarily unique to the Chelmsford-Liverpool Street line--include unpunctual services, a lack of information about delays and cancellations of trains and a lack of basic cleanliness. A number of years ago, many of my constituents were never sure whether it was night or day because the windows were so appallingly dirty. To be fair, in the past two or three years there have been notable improvements and great strides forward in improving services on the line. There has been a great deal of investment, as is manifest by the complete rebuilding of Chelmsford station and the magnificent redevelopment of Liverpool Street station. Only the most churlish of individuals could have anything but high praise for that, although there was a price to pay in that, for a number of years, there was total chaos in rush hours.

There has been new rolling stock on the line, and the beginning of resignalling from Liverpool Street through to Chelmsford and up to Colchester. Thanks to investment by British Rail, this will go to the Shenfield-to-Chelmsford part of the line by 1996. That will improve the ability of the network to meet timetables and be punctual. All that is to be welcomed.

However, all too often, because there was no genuine commercial pressure on Network SouthEast, too many problems have arisen that one would not have expected in the private sector. For example, three years ago, for five days over Easter, the whole of Liverpool Street station was

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closed, quite justifiably, because British Rail was beginning the resignalling of the line at that narrow entrance into Liverpool Street from which the lines fan out into the station. When the line was reopened on the Tuesday after Easter, there was chaos, because the new points system kept on short-circuiting.

When the system was being developed, nobody had considered the implications of having overhead electric cables, so when the network was started up to deal with the commuter services, the overhead electric cables shorted the new equipment. It took British Rail three days to identify the cause of the problem, and it then had to go to York to get some Marconi equipment, then bring it down and use it to get the system working. That caused the maximum amount of trouble to the commuting population, not only in my constituency but in the rest of south Essex. However, getting compensation from British Rail for the disruption and loss of services was like getting blood out of a stone.

By the bye, my constituents warmly welcome the charter being introduced to help provide commuters and customers of British Rail with help when there is a breakdown in services and they do not reach the expected standards.

The 45-odd years of British Rail as a nationalised industry has led to it becoming almost immune to the demands and wishes of its customers. It has a captive audience for the commuter service it provides in the south-east. There is no genuine competition because, realistically, people cannot travel from Chelmsford by car or bus. There are private bus services that work, but the journey is longer and one has to get up earlier and is longer on the road getting in, so the service is not in genuine competition with British Rail. Therefore, it can provide the standard of service that it wishes to provide without having to pay undue attention to the demands and complaints of its customers.

Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East) : Drivel.

Mr. Burns : The hon. Gentleman is probably fortunate in that, for most of his working life, he has not had to be a commuter and travel from Chelmsford or on the Fenchurch Street line from Southend, Billericay or any other parts of south Essex. He is unaware of what commuters there have to put up with day after day. Far too often, it is an unacceptable service.

Mr. Snape : I am glad to say I am not and never have been an Essex man. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that I spent most of my working life in railway signal boxes. I have never heard so much uninformed drivel about the industry in which I spent all my working life. If it was a private firm--I think it was Marconi, but I am speaking from memory--that installed the signalling system at Liverpool Street that the hon. Gentleman described as having failed because of the problems with immunisation of the overhead electric line, why do not he and his constituents seek compensation from that private company, or is that a bit too simple for him?

Mr. Burns : I am sorry to say that the hon. Gentleman is falling into a rather large elephant trap. It was not Marconi that installed the equipment, it was Westinghouse. As I said, Marconi's equipment from York, three days later, bailed out the faulty system. If the hon.

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Gentleman had had the courtesy to listen at the beginning of my speech, he would not have made that mistake. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has made a fool of himself by trying to score cheap party political points.

If the view that the hon. Gentleman has just expressed is symptomatic of the Labour party's view of commuters in south Essex, then it is no wonder that, in general election after general election, the Labour party does so abysmally in places such as Chelmsford.

Mr. Snape : I have no desire to drag this argument on, but I did say that I was speaking from memory when I said that it was Marconi.

Mr. Burns : The hon. Gentleman's memory was faulty.

Mr. Snape : Of course it was faulty. Occasionally, even the hon. Gentleman gets it wrong, as he is now. If it was Westinghouse that installed the signalling equipment, will the hon. Gentleman accept that that is not in the public sector either?

Mr. Burns : I accept that it is not in the public sector. I was making the point that it was British Rail, or Network SouthEast, that was placing the contracts for the equipment to upgrade the service. It seems staggering that, before the equipment was installed, it did not pay special attention to ensuring that it would work so that, when the rail network was brought up again on the Tuesday after Easter, it too would work to the full satisfaction of British Rail and commuters. The hon. Gentleman should stop making accusations. He has made an abysmal fool of himself by revealing that he did not know the company that provided the faulty equipment at Liverpool street station. I can understand him trying to save face, but I advise him to stop digging. The more he digs, the deeper the hole becomes. I was about to say, before being so rudely interrupted by the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), that for over 40 years British Rail faced no competitive forces. It had no competition to ensure that it kept itself in shape and sought to improve the quality of the service that it was providing to its customers. The commuter network provides a service for an almost entirely captive market, and in the absence of competition, it could afford to become soft and not to meet the standards that any decent provider of a service would wish to meet. It did not have the stimulus of competition to ensure that it met the needs, wishes and desires of its customers. Commuters could not turn to another form of transportation to enable them to get to and from their work each day. As a result, the rail system continued to degenerate. Increasing apathy determined the standard of service that BR was prepared to accept for its customers. In the past few years, however, BR began to realise that the writing was on the wall and that, sooner or later, it would have to face the full force of competition. We have seen Network SouthEast seeking to improve the service that it provides. Anyone who uses the service to Liverpool Street from Chelmsford will accept, I am sure, that there have been many improvements in the past few years.

The process has not, however, gone far enough. It is still not what most people would consider a first-rate service, despite the fact that, since 1983, BR has invested £4 billion throughout the rail network.

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The hon. Member for Kingston on Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) talked about subsidy, but to increase a subsidy year in and year out is not the right way to go forward. That approach provides a cushion but not an impetus to improve the service. I believe strongly that investment in the rail network is crucial to give BR the ability to improve its service and meet its customers' demands. The answer does not lie in flabby subsidies that provide a cushion.

I welcome the fact that the Government are prepared to allow the privatisation of British Rail, albeit in stages. I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends look forward to the small detail of the Government proposals as they are brought forward. I know that my constituents will welcome any initiative that introduces a dose of competition and the flair of private enterprise, to ensure that the service that is provided by the rail network is brought up to standard so that those who use it get value for money and a clean and punctual service. That will ensure that their use of the system is more enjoyable as they of necessity travel to and from work. I know that, when subsequent legislation is introduced, my constituents will warmly welcome it. They will recognise that it will improve the level and standard of a service that they have had to tolerate for far too long.

8.35 pm

Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) : I am sure that the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) will forgive me if I do not take up his remarks about British Rail. I shall confine my remarks to British Coal and the Bill to privatise the coal industry, but I have considerable misgivings about debating a paving Bill which, in effect, will give an enormous number of powers and duties to British Coal, as well as placing upon it liabilities without hon. Members knowing how the industry is to be privatised. We have no idea of what is to be the structure or size of a privatised industry. The Government should have published their proposals before they asked us to debate this paving measure. We are faced with an abuse of the House. I agree strongly with the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) about the provisions that will allow the Secretary of State to bypass Parliament when introducing measures that are necessary to privatise British Coal and British Rail. It is unfortunate that the Select Committees are not yet in place. It is especially regrettable that we do not have a Select Committee to scrutinise energy matters. Sadly, we are to lose the Select Committee on Energy, which in the past produced reports on the coal industry.

My misgivings stem from the fact that I do not believe that the coal industry should be privatised. I do not see privatisation doing any good for the industry. Indeed, I do not see it bringing any benefits. The Secretary of State mentioned some of the benefits that he thought that privatisation would bring to the mining industry, such as increases in revenue, the widening of share ownership and increased capital. How can revenue be increased when, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) rightly said, British Coal has billions of pounds worth of liabilities? It has been said already that it is the institutions and other large organisations that purchase shares. Individuals are not buying shares in privatised industries. Ownership is passing more and more to large companies and other large organisations.

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We must concentrate on the market that is available to the coal industry and the market that will be available to it in future. Against that background, privatisation is not the appropriate policy for the industry when we consider our energy requirements. It will do no good to put the industry at the mercy of the market. The generators have said that they want gas-fired generation--combined cycle generation-- and not British coal. They have said more than once that they want to use imported coal. My right hon. and hon. Friends have said that the generators, beginning with the Central Electricity Generating Board, have stated that they want to import up to about 30 million tonnes of coal. They have said also that they are interested in burning orimulsion. Again, that will take markets from British Coal. We must remember that our stocks of coal are as high as about 42 million tonnes.

What are the prospects for gas-fired generation? We were told last year by the chairman of British Coal that 7 to 7.5 GW of generation was due to come on stream in 1994-95. That generation will displace about 20 million tonnes of British coal. If we take that from the current level of 65 million tonnes in the contracts, that leaves an available market of about 45 million tonnes.

British Coal could compete with combined cycle gas if we took into account the capital costs of building those stations. The only valid argument for burning gas, which is a premium fuel, is that it is cleaner. We must also consider the Government's commitment to flue gas desulphurisation. I remember the former Secretary of State for Energy giving the Select Committee a commitment that flue gas desulphurisation equipment would be fitted to the power stations at Drax and Ferrybridge. We are still waiting for much of that equipment.

Very cheap coal stocks are available on the international market from South Africa and elsewhere and British Coal has difficulty competing with such low-priced imported coal. The generators say they will buy and import coal from whatever sources they want. Both National Power and PowerGen have said that many times. How much coal will be imported? How many tonnes will be taken out of the available market of 45 million tonnes? We need answers to those questions before we can judge any privatisation proposals for the coal industry.

Opencast mining, which produced 18 million tonnes of coal last year, also takes away markets from British Coal. We must think about the environmental aspects. It is no use saying that because opencast mining is cheap, because it is good for profits and because it can be mined easily, we should move towards that system of mining. It is a filthy operation. It produces dust and filth, means many lorries on the road and creates many environmental problems. We should restrict, not increase, opencast mining.

Privatisation will compound the coal industry's problems. The hon. Member for Gedling (Mr. Mitchell) referred to a carbon tax and the problems of emissions. Again, those problems will restrict the coal industry's markets. Before we begin to discuss privatisation, how that is to be achieved, or even the safeguards that Labour Members want, we need answers to many questions. Many of the threats to British Coal should be lifted.

We have spoken many times about the increases in productivity in the mining industry--more than 100 per cent. since 1985. In addition, costs have decreased by up to 25 per cent. and prices by about 28 per cent. since the last time that British Coal increased prices in 1985. If prices

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can be brought down under public ownership, why do we need to privatise the industry to try to force prices down even further? How far down will prices be forced while we are paying money hand over fist to the nuclear industry? I do not understand how privatisation will improve the coal industry's record.

Coal is competing with gas, but, as I said earlier, it can be cheaper. Coal also competes with nuclear power, yet there is a £1.2 billion fossil fuel levy, equivalent to 11 per cent. of each of our electricity bills. It has been said many times that if coal had that sort of protection, British Coal could give it away. It could even pay the generators £10 a tonne for taking it and still come out with a profit.

British Coal is also competing with coal from South Africa, which pays low wages, and with coal from Colombia, which uses child labour. The competition is unfair. Privatising the industry will not deal with the problems in the market. It will not produce increased competition within the industry that will benefit Britain or its energy market.

By the time we discuss the details of a Bill that will put the flesh on the bones of this measure, it is probable that only a handful of collieries will be left. Already British Coal is embarking on a further pit closure programme. Perhaps there should be a moratorium on pit closures while we decide what size coal industry we want.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is not the Government's policy that threatens the industry, but the other aspects to which he referred? Does he further agree that it is not privatisation, of itself, that places the industry under threat, but factors that are outside the Government's remit?

Mr. Illsley : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will remember that a former Secretary of State for Energy, Cecil Parkinson, told the generators that they could buy coal from wherever they wished. That was Government policy. The coal industry faces many threats, and privatisation is one. It will affect the size of the industry because it will mean further pit closures. Although I agree with the hon. Gentleman that many of the threats to the industry are not the result of the Government's policies, nevertheless the Government have done little to remove those threats, to encourage the industry or to protect it at a certain size. During the time that I served on the Select Committee, I heard little from the Government about safeguarding the industry at a certain size.

I am not sure who would want to buy into the coal industry. The hon. Gentleman referred to the coal contracts that are still being negotiated. Who would want to buy into an industry that has no long-term future? Nobody knows how many collieries will be left this year or next year, what size of market will be available next year, how the contracts are progressing or what tonnage British Coal will be able to produce. Only the companies involved in the energy market, such as the large oil companies and the international coal companies, might be interested in buying into the handful of British collieries that will remain once the industry is privatised.

There is also the question of the £6 billion of liabilities. Who will take on responsibility for that? In particular, I want to know about the liability for concessionary coal to retired members of the industry. Hundreds of thousands of

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people still receive concessionary fuel because they served in the industry. Will the Government have responsibility for that or will it be hived off to some agency? The Bill contains the power for British Coal to transfer liabilities. Will it transfer the liability for concessionary coal to some agency, to the Government or to someone else? How can we find out about the future for coal concessionaires? What about the liability for compensation cases, especially industrial deafness? Many cases become apparent only many years into the future. Who will have the responsibility for meeting the compensation claims both of the past and of the future?

Who will be responsible for meeting claims against the privatised industry for coal mining subsidence? Only a year ago the House passed an Act dealing with coal mining subsidence, but there was no provision in it for a privatised industry.

The coal industry pension funds have already been mentioned. British Coal is taking a £450 million pension fund holiday. It is immoral that the workers in the industry are still required to pay into that scheme even though British Coal is taking a holiday and accepting hundreds of millions of pounds towards its profitability. Is the pension scheme to serve as an incentive to anyone buying into the privatised industry? Is the scheme to be hived off, sold or transferred to another agency? What will happen to our members' pensions in future? We do not want a repeat of the Maxwell scenario, with people lobbying Members of Parliament day after day because their pensions have been misused.

Although the Bill is only a technical measure, it raises a number of questions, which have been left unanswered. There is no Select Committee ready to scrutinise the Bill, and we shall have to await the Government's proposals, having already given British Coal power to get on with transferring its liabilities and assets in the move towards privatisation. It is imperative that the Government publish their proposals very quickly.

8.50 pm

Mr. Alan Meale (Mansfield) : I join right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House in congratulating you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your new post. Your active participation in crime prevention, as a member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs--on which you served admirably for many years--will serve you well in your years in the Chair. I only hope that I will not be one of those whom you regularly slap down for disorderly conduct.

I am greatly concerned about the Bill's deliberately misleading contents, which set out to con the electorate in the coalfield communities of Britain that the Government are in favour of a coal mining industry. It is clear that the Bill will bring to an end the coal mining industry as we have known it for generations. The Bill implies that only small reductions will be made in the scale of the industry, but no one is fooled by that. Anyone who knows anything about the industry is aware that it has already suffered a series of devastating cutbacks, and the Bill will only serve to erode it substantially further.

The industry's management is employed to protect the industry, produce coal and look after the mining communities. Over the past few years, however, I have seen very weak management, whose only intention is to

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run down the industry. The present management of British Coal and the Government are acting together deliberately to reduce a sizeable public asset.

I ask the Minister to consider imposing a moratorium on any further cutbacks or closures, until the Bill is enacted. If he does not do so, he will be making an enormous mistake. On the stock exchange, trading in a particular company is usually suspended once an offer for it has been made, and there can be no sense in the Government allowing the coal industry-- whose management will be making a bid for it--to be run down by its management to the point where it will then be affordable to them, so that they can make a fast buck out of privatisation. A number of my hon. Friends intimated that the scale of the industry's mismanagement is known throughout the coalfields of Britain.

Most of Nottinghamshire's coal miners are in their early thirties, whereas in the past they would be in their early sixties. Only a few years ago, there were 34,000 coal miners in Nottinghamshire, but today the number is 12,000. Coal mining remains vital to Nottinghamshire, providing £5 million a week, or one quarter of a billion pounds a year, in wages alone. We cannot allow a privatisation that will lead to further pit closures, so that the number of Nottinghamshire mines is reduced to three or four. That would be a tragedy for all concerned.

Although most of Nottinghamshire's miners are young, some of them have previously worked in Yorkshire, Scotland, Lancashire or the north-east. Many of them married young and live in council houses or those that were originally owned by the Coal Board but are now largely in the hands of housing associations. Privatisation will not offer anything of a chance to those miners, as some Conservative Members suggested.

The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) said that the Bill offers miners a great opportunity to participate in and own part of their industry. The question is not whether the Bill is an exercise in share ownership in a dwindling industry, but whether a coal mining industry will remain in Britain. I suggest to right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House that if privatisation proceeds, there will be no industry.

A number of my hon. Friends asked questions about undertakings that must be given before the Government proceed. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Illsley) spoke of the problems created by subsidence. They are known to me, because I endeavoured to defeat them during the lifetime of the previous Parliament, together with other hon. Friends--including my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who battled valiantly in respect of that issue.

I have still to discover where all the moneys have gone that were deducted by British Coal from every tonne of coal produced, to be set aside for subsidence compensation. Three or four years ago, I asked a former Secretary of State for Energy the total value of those funds, and was told that it was more than £200 million. There is no way that any substantial sums have been paid out, so what will happen to that £200 million or £300 million if the industry is privatised? Does the Treasury guarantee that those moneys will be paid out to future generations? I suspect not. I suspect that, by means of regulation, the Government will stand aside from the problem and leave home owners facing a dilemma.

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The question of pensions has rightly been highlighted. I do not trust British Coal's management now, and I trust a privatised coal industry even less. Only a few weeks ago, rather than voting for extra help for coal industry pensioners, the management voted for an extra week's holiday for its senior members. Such action prompts immense distrust in those who must examine the management of public industries.

My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) mentioned people who rely on the industry for concessionary coal. What will happen to people who live in houses where coal is burned? What about those who have moved out of such houses or have had electric or gas fires installed, and who therefore rely on payments? I know--and the Government know damn well--that the privatised companies will not pay allowances to all those people, or provide guarantees to that effect.

The industry is well aware, as are Members of Parliament who represent mining communities, that British Coal's present management will not say, "Here we have a man who used to work in the industry," or "Here we have the widow of a miner"--perhaps one who was killed while doing his job--"who is in a terrible state, cannot walk properly and cannot attend to the fire, and who therefore wants to switch to a different fuel," and decide to help that person. No leeway will be found.

I ask the Government to stop misleading the British people and to stop trying to repeat the exercise of the early 1980s, when they said to the mining industry, "Trust us : stand with the Conservative party. We will look after you--there is a future for coal." We have seen the "future for coal". It means a total rundown of the industry, the closure of hundreds of pits and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs, directly in mining and indirectly in the subsidiary industries.

If the Bill proceeds, there will be no future for the mining industry. It is about time that the Government came clean and started to admit to the malicious damage that they are attempting to inflict on the coalfield communities.

9.1 pm

Mr. David Amess (Basildon) : I welcome the opportunity to support the Bill, especially because it allows me to share with the House some thoughts about my constituency, Basildon. I know that the House is particularly keen to hear about my constituency : it is impossible to have too much of a good thing, and Basildon is a very good thing. During the general election campaign, Opposition Members tried to make transport--and the Fenchurch Street line--an election issue. I am delighted to see the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) in his place, because he visited Basildon during the campaign ; we saw a very nice photograph of him looking out of a carriage window. Let me wish him well in his bid for the deputy leadership of the Labour party. If I had a vote, I should certainly support him : to me he represents the authentic voice of socialism, along with the hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone). We do not want any more of this designer socialism!

During the election campaign, the leader of one of the rail unions also came to Basildon, where he addressed a crowd of 200. I think that his advice was as follows : "In a

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marginal constituency like Basildon, blame the rotten service on the Conservative party. Vote against the hon. Member for Basildon ; vote for the Labour candidate." Neither possibility came true as a result of the efforts of Opposition Members.

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) : Whom does the hon. Gentleman blame for what he and I agree is a clapped-out railway system between Fenchurch street and Southend ? Does he blame British Rail, the Government or the Archangel Gabriel ?

Mr. Amess : I am delighted that two Essex Members are present tonight. Let me make it clear that I blame the disgraceful service on the line.

Just nine months ago, I telephoned the chairman of British Rail after the first disastrous public relations exercise in my constituency. The gentleman who is supposed to manage the line was to meet me at Basildon railway station, but he never turned up. He never turned up because he missed his connecting train. I came to my office in the House of Commons, telephoned the chairman of British Rail and invited him to share the journey with me from Basildon to Fenchurch street. His office told me to meet the chairman of British Rail in time to catch the 8.26 am. train. There was no 8.26 am. train. It should have been 8.36 am. Then we found that two out of the eight carriages were locked. After that, the shambolic journey took place. When we eventually arrived at Fenchurch Street station, we were met by Sir Bernard Braine, the former Member of Parliament for Castle Point. I am glad to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink), who succeeded Sir Bernard Braine, is in his place. Of course, Sir Bernard exploded when he met the chairman of British Rail. He was unable to participate in the journey because he was given the wrong time for his connecting train at Benfleet. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) asked me who I blame. I jolly well do not blame the Government. That is what Opposition Members tried to do during the general election campaign. When I stood with my megaphone during those three weeks outside Pitsea, Laindon and Basildon stations, I found that the good people of Basildon were not blaming the Government. They were not fooled by the Opposition's promises. I see that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East has disappeared. That is a pity. I know that the general public were not fooled at all. Sadly, the management of the Fenchurch Street line is somewhat lacking.

Dr. Robert Spink (Castle Point) : Is my hon. Friend aware that in a parliamentary answer last week, the Minister informed me that British Rail, headed by Sir Bob Reid, who must take final responsibility, had still not come forward with its proposals for rolling stock investment on the Fenchurch Street line? Until British Rail comes forward with those proposals so that the Government can consider them, I do not see how Opposition Members can possibly blame the Government. Does my hon. Friend join me in calling upon British Rail to make its proposals as a matter of urgency?

Mr. Amess : I am delighted to join my hon. Friend in that call. Everything that he said was absolutely right.

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The Fenchurch Street line is very poorly managed. How else can one explain the fact that, when our constituents arrive at Fenchurch Street station, they are given a postcard with eight excuses? There is a box next to each excuse. Each box has to be ticked according to the particular flavour of the day. Employees are expected to hand that postcard to their employers to explain why they were 10, 15 or 20 minutes late. The service is an absolute disgrace.

Mr. Meale : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I and many of my hon. Friends received a similar postcard through our letter boxes from the vice- chairman and chairman of the Conservative party asking for money in the weeks before the general election?

Mr. Amess : I think that that is a red herring. However, during the election campaign, I received a letter from the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) asking my wife and me to subscribe to the party political activities of the Labour party, so I think that that is 15-all.

The management of the Fenchurch Street line is somewhat lacking. We on these Benches believe in strong leadership. [H on. Members :-- "Oh!"] Yes, we do, and we expect strong leadership from the chairman of British Rail. I make no criticism of the women and men who work so hard on our railway stations and who do a very good job. No wonder morale is low. It is the bosses who need to raise their heads above the parapet and take responsibility for rail services.

I know that time is pressing, so I gently say to our excellent ministerial team that we would have liked slightly tougher targets in the citizens charter for the Fenchurch Street line. If British Rail cannot deliver an adequate service, it is about time someone else was given the opportunity to see whether they can do better.

I pay tribute to the Basildon commuter group, led by Mr. Martin Ramms. It does an excellent job, but its members have better things to do with their time than holding committee meetings and doing the job of the management of British Rail. My constituents are fed up with the Fenchurch Street line. They will no longer put up with the shoddy service they get. I believe that this excellent Bill is the answer, and I have no doubt that, as a result, the Fenchurch Street line will improve in the months and years ahead.

9.10 pm

Mr. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) : May I congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker--no doubt for the umpteenth time--on your appointment? I hope that you have a happy time in the Chair and keep us in order, as you would like people to keep their dogs in order. I hope that you will treat us better than some people treat their dogs.

We heard five maiden speeches, most of which were made by Conservative Members. The first was made by the new hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Sproat). He was formerly the Member for Aberdeen, South and he got to Harwich via the circuitous route of an unfortunate brush with the electors of Roxburgh and Berwickshire. That makes him what is called a retread. If the contents of his speech were anything to go by, it sounds as though the retread process has not reduced the friction that he used to induce between himself and Opposition Members.

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Everyone would accept that the new hon. Member for Finchley (Mr. Booth) has a hard act to follow, particularly as he is denied the use of the famous handbag. He seemed to subscribe to the policies of his predecessor. Labour Members at least welcome his warning to Ministers about the need to maintain safety in Britain's mines, even if they are to be privatised.

The next maiden speaker was my good and old hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill). He is a welcome addition to the House, particularly as he is the first non-Tory representative for Streatham since 1912. There must be some lessons there. He made a fluent speech and recited the story of Duncan Sandys' arrogant relationship with the electors of Streatham. I was once told by Nicholas Ridley that Duncan Sandys had a habit of running down the majorities that he inherited from other people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham referred to the outfit called Stagecoach. My view is that much of the railway privatisation will owe rather more to Dick Turpin than to the stagecoach. I thought that I might have some difficulty with the new hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson), because he displaced my good friend and member of my team, Frank Doran. But he paid Frank a most gracious tribute in his fluent speech, and we are all grateful to him for that.

The new hon. Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) made a confident, noteless speech, expounding the virtues of his beautiful constituency. Labour Members who have made hapless visits there in by- elections will at least confirm its beauty. He paid tribute to his short- term predecessor, Nicol Stephen, and, rightly, to his predecessor but one, Alick Buchanan-Smith, who was a genuine, decent Tory gent--a species which, regrettably, is increasingly absent from the Conservative Benches. Nevertheless, his successor is welcome here.

The Bill paves the way for the privatisation of the British Coal Corporation, and before it is drowned in a sea of pro-privatisation propaganda, it is as well to remember the basic facts about British Coal. The 49 colleries run by this publicly owned company are the most efficient in Europe. Britain's 41,000 miners produce coal at a much lower cost than any of their European competitors, but, unlike their competitors, they receive no production subsidy.

Equally, important, Britain's mines are twice as safe as any in the world. No other industry in Britain is twice as efficient and twice as safe as its German counterpart, yet this British industry is in rapid decline and is in danger of being reduced to as few as a dozen pits, not as a result of any shortcomings in the industry but because it is already paying a double price for privatisation--first, as a consequence of the privatisation of its major customer, the electricity industry, and secondly, because of the Government's process of preparation for the privatisation of British Coal itself. Britain's miners and their families in the coalfield communities know that it is make or break time for the coal industry, but they are not asking for any special favours. They believe that a secure future for what remains of the coal industry would be good not only for them but for Britain, and I am sure that they are right. If we do not maintain a substantial supply of deep-mined British coal, everyone in Britain will suffer. No serious Government could contemplate the alternatives.

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Let us consider the inevitable consequences of the alternative ways of making up for the coal that would no longer be produced. First, there is the dash for gas, burning our precious natural gas supplies in power stations. That will prematurely run down our limited gas supplies, drive up the price of gas, add to the trade deficit and, ultimately, make Britain dependent on gas imports from insecure foreign suppliers--all that to generate electricity which will cost more than electricity generated from existing coal-fired power stations.

A second option is to import more coal. Ten years ago, Britain imported only 4 million tonnes, but last year it was 20 million tonnes and rising. If that continues, coal imports alone could add as much as £1.5 billion to Britain's annual trade deficit, a self-inflicted wound which must hamper our economic performance. Another option is yet more opencast mining, on top of the massive increase of recent years. It is a system under which coal is cheap because the price is paid by the communities bordering the opencast workings.

A major option being pursued by the Government is nuclear power, which is being kept alive by endless injections of public subsidies. Every electricity user pays a surcharge to cover the cost of nuclear power which is used whenever or wherever it is generated, while coal-fired plants which produce cheaper electricity are forced to stand idle and are threatened with closure. All these policies are being pursued now as part of the privatised electricity companies' efforts to drive down their short-term costs, whatever the long-term consequences. Needless to say, those cost reductions have not been passed on in any way to the consumers of electricity.

The coal industry needs long-term, high-take contracts with the generating companies. It needs them now and it needs them whoever owns the coal industry. Such strategic decisions are the stuff of government and the Government should be involved in the negotiations--even Rothschild, the Government's own merchant banker advisers, recommended that. But the previous Secretary of State for Energy, John Wakeham, chose to ignore Rothschild's advice. Responsibility for the coal industry now rests with el Presidente, the new President of the Board of Trade. That is appropriate in some ways because the energy industry, besides producing almost one fifth of our country's wealth, has a major impact on our trade. The rundown of our coal industry could add to the trade deficit by massive increases in coal and natural gas imports. The British mining equipment industry would lose export orders if it were denied a home market in which products could be demonstrated to potential overseas buyers. British power plant manufacturers will also lose markets if they are held back by a lack of investment in modern clean coal technology. Instead of exporting, we should end up importing to meet our own needs.

The President of the Board of Trade must take the matter seriously. In 1989 --I assume that he was referring to the Tory party--he said : "I beg our party not to argue that a trade deficit on overseas trade is of incidental importance, self-correcting, easily financed. I don't believe a word of it."

He was right then and we are right now. He should act now to avoid these gratuitous additions to the trade deficit.

The new President of the Board of Trade has said that he believes in intervention. He has his chance. He should get on and intervene, and work to achieve the long-term

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