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Points of Order
3.35 pm
Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Can you give the House any information about whether the Government intend to make a statement about the Earth summit at Rio de Janeiro, which starts on 2 June ?
I have just had the amazing experience of visiting the other place, where a five-hour debate on the Earth summit is beginning. In the House of Commons, however, we have heard no indication of the Government's policy on an issue of global importance. Furthermore, the Minister for Overseas Development-- who was formerly in this place, and is now in the other place--was not present in the other place to deal with the issue.
Madam Speaker : Order. That has nothing to do with the Chair. I have grasped the main point that the hon. Lady has raised, and she may wish to raise it again during Business Questions on Thursday.
Mr. Andrew Bowden (Brighton, Kemptown) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I return to the original point of order ? Is it not totally unfair--
Madam Speaker : Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat. I have given a ruling and I will not go back on it. I will take only points of order on other issues.
Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. We are about to begin a debate on a Bill that implements a treaty that has to be merged with another treaty, yet we have no text of the merged treaty. We do not know who will perform the merger, or who will produce the interpretation of which treaty shall prevail in that merger.
Yesterday, Madam Speaker, you ruled that the Bill before us was perfectly in order--which, of course, it is, because it is a three-clause Bill. However, it implements a treaty that will be incomprehensible unless the House has a copy of the merged document consisting of the treaty of Rome and the treaty of union. The Foreign Office has failed to provide us with essential information : we are legislating in the dark.
I have here a merged text of the two treaties, which has been drawn up by Professor Stephen Bush. Would it be in order if I laid it on the Table, and we adjourned so that
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hon. Members could read it ? It is only 188 pages long, and it would be useful if we knew what we were legislating about.Madam Speaker : I refer the hon. Gentleman and the House to the statement that I made yesterday. He should consider raising those matters in debate rather than on a point of order.
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. For the benefit of those who have raised the matter, may I remind the House that the vast majority of Scots who live in Britain--
Madam Speaker : Order. I have made a ruling that I will take no more points of order on that issue, and we are not going back. I have made my position abundantly clear.
Mr. John McAllion (Dundee, East) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) has said, we are about to debate a Bill that enshrines the principle of subsidiarity in the United Kingdom's constitution. Unfortunately, the majority of hon. Members are not prepared to apply that principle in Scotland. In such circumstances, how can those of us who represent the democratic majority in Scotland secure Scotland's national rights by ensuring that that principle is applied in Scotland as it will be applied throughout Europe?
Madam Speaker : It is for individual Members to decide how they deal with the Bill and how they vote at the end of the day.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : Further to the point of order with regard to the treaty of union, apart from the effect of the treaty being difficult to comprehend, the clauses of the treaty are, in many cases, not clear and have to be open to interpretation. Normally, when we deal with a complex Bill with a lot of clauses whose interpretation is uncertain, there is the opportunity in Committee to table and move amendments in order to test the meaning of each clause. When this Bill is considered in Committee, will there be an equivalent opportunity for Members to table and move amendments to test the meaning of each clause?
Madam Speaker : I think that we must wait for the Committee stage. It would be wrong for me to predetermine what will happen then. However, I hope that the most thorough examination will be made of the various clauses and amendments, once the Bill is in Committee. Perhaps we can now proceed.
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Orders of the Day
European Communities (Amendment) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
[Relevant documents :
Treaty of Rome, as amended by the Single European Act (Cm 455)Treaty on European Union (Cm 1934)Fifteenth Report from the Select Committee on European Legislation (House of Commons Paper No. 24-xv of Session 1991- 92)Second Report from the Foreign Affairs Committee (House of Commons Paper No. 223 of Session 1991-92) on Europe after Maastricht and Observations by the Government on the Report (Cm 1965)Third Report from the Health Committee (House of Commons Paper No. 180 of Session 1991-92) on the European Community and Health PolicyMinutes of Evidence taken before the Home Affairs Committee on 5th, 12th and 26th February 1992 (House of Commons Paper No. 215 of Session 1991-92 on Migration Control at the External Borders of the European CommunityMinutes of Evidence taken before the Treasury and Civil Service Committee on 19th February 1992 (House of Commons Paper No. 285 of Session 1991-92) on Economic and Monetary UnionFourth Special Report from the Treasury and Civil Service Committee (House of Commons Paper No. 334 of Session 1991-92) on European Community FinancesThe White Paper on Developments in the European Community, July- December 1991 (Cm 1857)The White Paper on Developments in the European Community, January-June 1991 (Cm 1657).]
Madam Speaker : Before I call the Prime Minister, I should inform the House that I have selected the amendment standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. I have also determined that today I shall not invoke the Standing Order on the 10-minute rule for speeches, but in response to my generosity in that respect, I hope that individual right hon. and hon. Members will exercise some self-restraint. There are a large number of Members who want to speak. We want all their voices to be heard in the debate. 3.41 pm
The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major) : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
When my right hon. Friends--
Mr. John McAllion (Dundee, East) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not want to disrupt our proceedings at this stage.
Mr. McAllion rose--
Mr. McAllion : The Government are denying Scotland its democratic right to--
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Madam Speaker : Order. I do not wish to name anyone. I understand the passionate feelings that run high here, but I am confident that the hon. Gentleman, who I am sure represents his Scottish constituency very proudly, is not seeking to disrupt our proceedings today, which--
Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Hillhead) : They are misgoverning our country.
Madam Speaker : Order. This is a very serious matter. Let us deal with it in a serious way.
Mr. McAllion rose--
Madam Speaker : Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to reconsider what he is asking me to do.
Mr. McAllion : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I spy strangers, and the strangers are those who are denying Scotland its rights in this very important debate.
Madam Speaker : In that case, I must put the motion.
Notice being taken that strangers were present, Madam Speaker,-- pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw :-- The House divided : Ayes 13, Noes 284.
Division No. 17] [3.43 pm
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Canavan, Dennis
Chisholm, Malcolm
Connarty, Michael
Dafis, Cynog
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Galloway, George
Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McKelvey, William
Salmond, Alex
Wigley, Dafydd
Wray, Jimmy
Tellers for the Ayes :
Mr. Mike Watson and
Mr. John McAllion.
NOES
Adley, Robert
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Allen, Graham
Ancram, Michael
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Aspinwall, Jack
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Barnes, Harry
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Battle, John
Beckett, Margaret
Beith, A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Bennett, Andrew F.
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Blair, Tony
Booth, Hartley
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyes, Roland
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chaplin, Mrs Judith
Chapman, Sydney
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Corbett, Robin
Cran, James
Cryer, Bob
Cunningham, Dr John (C'p'l'nd)
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
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