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Mr. Whitney : What we have achieved is more than 1 per cent. of total flows. That shows an effective transfer of resources.
Miss Joan Lestor (Eccles) : May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that this Government's aid programme is exactly half the level left by the Labour Government in 1979? If he is proud of that, I am not. The recent proposal by the Dutch in Strasbourg--that countries should agree to try to reach the United Nations target by the year 2000--was also opposed by the British Government.
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Mr. Whitney : It is interesting that the hon. Lady did not challenge what I said : neither this Government nor the Labour Government ever came remotely near attaining the 0.7 per cent. target.Mr. Watson : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
It is important to remember the facts when we talk about the transfer of resources, and we must always bear in mind the terrifying examples of Ethiopia and Tanzania. There are many more.
The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) suggested that a further $70 billion be transfered, with no apparent checks attached. That would be ludicrous. Meanwhile, the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould), when pressed time and again by Conservative Members to say under what conditions a Labour Government, heaven forfend, would sign the agreement in question, characteristically refused to answer. He left us with the impression that a Labour Government would have signed a blank cheque.
That would not be sensible for this country or for the north in general ; nor would it be sensible for countries which have yet to develop. Their development, as 50 years of experience have shown, can be achieved only when the political and social conditions in their countries are right.
There is general agreement about the need for progress on GATT. The transfer of resources issue must be disentangled from environmental issues, and in that disentanglement the achievement of an agreement on the Uruguay round is crucial.
Conservative Members and those on the right of politics have nothing to be ashamed of in this area. We bring clear thinking to it, in stark contrast to the thinking of the hon. Member for Dagenham, who sought to inject a note of party politics into what should not be a fiercely partisan debate. He suggested that right wingers have no regard for ecology, and implied that left wingers have. We, however, will never forget the impact of the socialist regimes of the Soviet Union and eastern Europe and the environmental monstrosities and horrors that they created.
This has been a fortuitous chance to debate Rio. I am confident that the Government will go there with their mind clear about the dangers to which I have referred. I only hope that the British public and media will clear their minds and not fall for cheap eco-terrorism or the attempt to confuse two singularly important but distinct issues--the problems of ecology and the problems of international development.
6.34 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) plays an active and valuable role in the House in relation to Latin American affairs, so I was a little surprised to hear him use the word jamboree. He knows as well as I do that the Brazilians and others have gone to enormous trouble to arrange this conference, which has been difficult to organise.
Mr. Whitney : When the hon. Gentleman reads the record he will find that I apologised in advance for using the word. I am happy to withdraw it ; I applaud the summit.
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Mr. Dalyell : I do not think it is a jamboree ; it is an extremely important conference.
I wish to say a quiet and gentle word to the Secretary of State. As this is an all-party issue, would it not have been sensible to invite representatives of the Opposition to join the delegation--I am glad that the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister are going--along with representatives from the Liberal party and the nationalist parties? The British House of Commons should have been represented jointly on this issue. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) will, I think, confirm that the Liberals, like the Opposition, were not invited to join the delegation.
Mr. Simon Hughes indicated assent.
Mr. Dalyell : It is not satisfactory that this should be seen as a partisan issue. I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) that a Labour Government would have included in the delegation to Rio a Conservative shadow Minister or two.
I should like to ask certain specific questions. Yesterday, prompted by a good question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Ms. Primarolo), the Prime Minister said :
"We are working hard to make sure that we shall be in a position to sign the convention. As the hon. Lady knows, this country leads the world in scientific expertise on biodiversity, not least at Kew, and we play an important international role in attempts to achieve a convention that can be signed generally. A number of countries have financial concerns about the convention, and the particular concern, which I hope we shall be able to overcome, is that the financial articles imply an open-ended commitment to provide developing countries with additional finance, without the necessary corresponding commitments to conserving biodiversity. That is not of any interest to us or to them."--[ Official Report, 2 June 1992 ; Vol. 208, c. 702.]
This contrasts with a letter that I have received from Lady Chalker, dated 22 May, whom the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) represents in this place. I had written about the biodiversity convention on the first rumours that it might be in difficulty--particularly about the global environment facility. Lady Chalker replied :
"Britain has been a strong supporter of the Global Environment Facility from its outset. We are one of the largest contributors to the pilot phase, providing £40.3 million".
Incidentally, I have given the Minister's civil servants a copy of the letter to aid greater understanding of what I am getting at. "We see the GEF as having a key role as the multilateral funding mechanism to finance the incremental costs (i.e., those not justified by the benefits to the country in which the activity takes place) of actions developing countries carry out to implement their obligations under the climate change and biological diversity conventions. We have accepted that the GEF will need to evolve to fulfil this role. We were pleased that the participants in the GEF agreed at the April meeting to create a new Participants Assembly which will oversee the GEF implementing agencies (the World Bank, the UN Environment Programme and the UN Development Programme). The Participants Assembly should ensure that there is a voice in the GEF for all the developing countries which are party to either the climate change or the biological diversity conventions, as well as giving due weight to the funding efforts made by developed countries."
That is not the language of a Government who would hesitate to sign the biological diversity treaty. What has happened in the meantime? The letter goes on :
"The assembly will approve work programmes containing the projects under consideration for funding by the GEF."
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The letter goes on to deal with the April meeting, but I shall spare the House that detail. It concludes :"Britain is ready, subject to other developed countries joining us, to replenish the GEF with new and additional financial resources to help developing countries implement their obligations under the climate change and biodiversity conventions. This is an issue which I expect to discuss further at the Earth Summit in Rio next month." Why are the Government reluctant? My colleagues must have heard the Malaysians and others on the radio. What does one say to developing countries which say, "You want us to do something about protecting our rain forests for global reasons but you cannot even sign the biodiversity treaty that was conceived in the first place by Sir Crispin Tickell and other distinguished British civil servants and others"?
Secondly, I should like to return to the question that I asked earlier about intellectual property rights. The Secretary of State is a distinguished lawyer and he knows that patent law is difficult. I agree with him that trade is more important than aid and that his Indonesian colleague was surely right. The Madagascan rosy periwinkle has both vinblastine and vincristine. Those drugs cope with, if anything can, childhood leukaemia and they also cope with Hodgkin's disease. The Madagascans are desperately short of currency and surely they are entitled to some of the benefits that accrue to the great pharmaceutical companies in the west which have used their knowledge. The same reasoning applies in the tackling of AIDS with liana from Cameroon, another desperately poor country.
Only 1 per cent., if that, of plants have been examined for medicinal properties and the other 99 per cent. must have potential. Yet so many species are destroyed, unexamined. I do not get that information only from written scripts because Professor John Dale of the university of Edinburgh, the dean of the faculty of science, put me on to his biological sciences advisory committee and I was able to check with some of Britain's most distinguished botanists. Thirdly, we are endangering the planet's capacity to sustain life and depleting our ecological capital. The term "possible ecocide" is not too much of an exaggeration. I understand that in 17 of the 42 low-income developing countries the daily calorie intake per capita was lower in 1986 than in 1965. The warnings in the Brandt and Brundtland reports have changed from amber to a red alert. What are my colleagues and I to say to people such as George Medley of the World Wide Fund for Nature who yesterday organised a petition on the green outside the House for the tree of life? Many of my colleagues signed it, but I did not because it contained certain matters relating to sustainable timber and sustainable supplies that I could not accept. We must not underestimate the force of public opinion that is represented by the WWF and others. We often talk about the will of the British people. The hon. Member for Wycombe ran down television programmes such as "Fragile Earth" and the programmes transmitted by BBC2 on Sunday evenings. Those programmes are quite perceptibly changing public attitudes.
The Secretary of State spoke about improving the flow of environmental technologies. What did he mean? I would be a little more convinced if I could see examples. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is taking notes. Perhaps in his winding-up speech he will give us some examples.
I was fortunate enough to have an Adjournment debate on the ozone layer on 4 March. The report of the debate
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starts in column 413 and it was answered by the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry). When I raised the issue of crop protection and UVB, I was told that a good deal of research was being carried out in the agriculture departments of our universities. Only yesterday morning, Brian Jordan emphasised the importance of this work for crop protection. What will we be able to say to people in Rio about our work against UVB? The Secretary of State spoke about the network of protected areas. What does that mean? An eco-system must be a certain size in order to be classed as such a system. At what point does destruction cause the cessation of that system? We forsake opportunities for economic growth so that problems caused largely by imprudence and profligacy in rich countries can somehow be ameliorated. I am sure that in Rio the Secretary of State will not try to lecture rain forest countries, as some Americans such as Senator Gore and others do.The hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) spoke about global warming and said that there was not much in it. The hon. Member is at odds with the former right hon. Member for Finchley, Mrs. Thatcher. One of the things on which I agreed so strongly with the former Prime Minister was her concern for the Maldive islands. Do the Government accept that there will be a 2 to 5 deg C increase over 100 years and a sea level rise of 30 to 100 cm by 2090? What are the Government figures?
The Secretary of State spoke about sustainable development. The air that we breathe is not ours alone and the seas that wash our shores wash other shores as well. Many seas and oceans have become dirty communal ponds. The atmosphere has become a polluted universal sky. What action is to be taken? These are the terrible things that are happening. What is to be the attitude in Rio towards sustainable development? This is linked to the debt burden.
There was a moving broadcast on "The World This Weekend" by Jose Carlos Santana, a Brazilian representing a Sa o Paulo newspaper, who said that Brazil had paid its original debt many times over. This attitude to debt is not easy. When I was in Brazil for the Altimeira rally of the Amerindians-- for clarification, I should point out that I went of my own initiative, was beholden to nobody and can therefore make my own judgments--it was at the same time as Kit McMahon from the Midland bank.
One problem is the difficulty of one bank, or perhaps two, writing off debt, and others not doing so ; this must be done on a western basis as a whole. What is the Secretary of State going to be able to say in Rio about the relinquishment of debt?
I return to a question that I raised earlier today about Mauritius, and to which I shall return tomorrow and bore the House infinitely until I get full answers about it. I had the good fortune to be asked by The Sunday Times to review a remarkable book by Sonny Ramphal and I make no apology for reading his description of the mangrove problem.
"Overfishing is not the only culprit. Fish stocks are being endangered by other human encroachment. A particularly pernicious trend is the destruction of mangroves, coral reefs, and seagrass, among the world's most endangered ecosystems. These all shield the coasts and provide vital breeding grounds and habitats for fish. Nearly two-thirds of all fish caught in the world are hatched in mangrove and tidal areas. In my own part of the world, the Caribbean, some 90 per cent. of all commercial species of fish and shellfish depend
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on mangroves, coral reefs, and seagrass at critical stages in their life cycle. Yet everywhere, mangroves are in retreat, coral reefs are being degraded, and sea-grasses are threatened. Mangroves are cut for firewood or to make way for fish ponds, poisoned by pesticides from agricultural fields, or simply smothered by sediment from riverine and coastal development. As mangroves fail, coral reefs become more vulnerable to silt. Reefs are also victims of the construction of hotels or even of tourists themselves. From all this devastation they recover very slowly. Awareness of the serious damage being done to ocean habitats is growing. UNEP has an Oceans and Coastal Areas Program Activity Center in Nairobi whose work demonstrates in an outstanding way what can be done, but resources are scarce and other priorities overwhelm the fate of these often overlooked habitats." How can we help these overlooked habitats?I wish the Secretary of State well and I hope that he has a productive conference in Rio. However, I hope that he will keep at the top of his mind the fact that, while habitats are important, to preserve them one has to have the goodwill of the people who live in the rain forests. My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms. Jackson) referred to the Brazilians. I recall, when I went for an interview with the then Brazilian Minister for the north, Caesar Fernando Mesquita, he said, "In your constituency, Mr. Dalyell, when anybody builds an airfield or an airstrip, you will know about it. I do not, so huge is this area. The sheer difficulty of implementing environmental policies in a country such as Brazil is an enormous task for me." Brazilians do not appreciate being lectured to by whomsoever comes from Europe or the United States. We must do this in tandem with the people and Governments of those countries. I, for one, look forward to the report that either the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State will give to the House, I hope orally, on returning from Rio.
6.54 pm
Mr. Jim Lester (Broxtowe) : It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), whose questions are always penetrating and whose careful, thoughtful approach to this issue is recognised in the House.
I warmly welcome the fact that we are having a debate on this issue, although I am sorry that the reason for having it is that the Maastricht treaty has been put in question. I pressed my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House for this debate, and I am surprised to get it so quickly and at such short notice. However, we must take advantage of the debate and make the best use of our parliamentary time.
I welcome UNCED, the Rio summit. It is a major step forward in world thinking that we can bring together in one place such a large group of experts, leaders, non-governmental organisations and affected and interested people to create what I hope is a new atmosphere in our debates on the future of the planet.
We have talked about raising and lowering expectations. I deplore the attitude of the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould), who opened the debate for the Opposition. He suggested that the conference was a failure before it had begun and that orchestrated comment in some newspapers had written off the concept. I find that difficult to believe. Of course the negotiations will be hard--we are taking a new step. We should be seeking the support of the widest number of people, not just in our
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country or in Europe, but, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow said, in the many affected countries. We can bring about the necessary changes only if we have the support of the local communities in the domestic populations as well as the international concept. I have spent much of my parliamentary time preaching the gospel of an interdependent world. Whether we want one or not, we have a world that is interdependent in terms of its economy and environment. As we see the world contract--we often talk glibly about the global village--we realise that our neighbours are not just the people who live down the road or in the next village or in the immediate vicinity. Today, our neighbours live anywhere in the world because we know about everybody's problems and see them hour by hour and day by day. We cannot turn our backs on our neighbours in need.We tried, through the "One World" programme in 1988, to foster the concept of an interdependent world. We had a major programme in this country and across Europe which just scratched the surface. In 1990, we followed it with the "One World" broadcasting programme, which I thought was extremely good but which lost out because it did not link with the other organisations that have an interest in carrying through such programmes to the grass roots.
Many have commented on the "One World" programmes this year on television and in other forums, which led up to the Rio summit and which tried to educate and inform many people. The project has involved schoolchildren and many others in local communities. Last Saturday, 30 May, people across Europe took part in activities on "One World" day. I am happy to say that my local authority had a programme in the square of Beeston. If people wanted a sense of what it was all about, they should have seen the way that the young children responded quite spontaneously. They did not know that there would be a show in the centre of the town square. It was organised through the United Nations, and a talented group of young people put on a show about the Earth summit and the consequences of the issues that we are discussing tonight. Before it was possible to say "Jack Robinson", a group of young people were holding up banners and participating in various activities. It was extremely impressive. I was glad that many older people were similarly involved. There is a linkage between what individuals can do in their local communities and what others can be pressed to do in a much wider context. Much credit is due to those who will work long and hard in the pre-conference deliberations. Apart from the experts from the Overseas Development Administration, the Foreign Office and the Department of the Environment, there are many others from non-governmental organisations and the World Wide Fund for Nature, for example, with expertise. I find it hard to accept that we should condemn the summit before it has even started, bearing in mind the massive amount of work that has gone into the pre- conference deliberations.
There are 27 chapters in Agenda 21 and they cover virtually every aspect of the environment. There is a chapter on combating poverty, which relates to one of the principal problems of improving the environment. I have already discussed education, training and public awareness. There is also the science of sustainable development. An issue that is close to my heart--I have seen much evidence of the problem--is combating desertification and drought and the role of regional organisations. Many
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other issues raised in the debate concern the sky, the seas and all the other problems of the environment. A considerable amount of work has been done and there are blueprints within Agenda 21 that, I hope, will help us to introduce the necessary developments in future. It would seem from the comments that have been made that there has not been top-down organisation. The approach has been to ascertain how we can help local communities and others to pursue solutions to meet their own needs and to protect their own local environments. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) is especially concerned about population, and I have no doubt that he will speak on that subject if he has the opportunity to do so. The approach of Agenda 21 to population growth is to take up the education of women and the development of women within their communities. It has not confined itself to family planning, which has often been tried and which often has not worked.I feel optimistic about the Rio summit. I give special credit to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who was the first leader to say that he wanted to go to the summit. He spent much time in Harare, at the Commonwealth conference, persuading others to go. Commonwealth leaders and others have told me that my right hon. Friend's approach was one reason why they thought seriously about attending the summit and decided to go.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has had an influence on President Bush. I understand the difficulties that America faces, although I do not necessarily agree with its approach to them. However, we are all politicians and I think that everybody recognises that President Bush is in a difficult electoral year. We have heard his opponents saying on television that not a cent should leave American shores in the form of aid and that all available funds should be put back into American society. It is clear that President Bush has a difficulty, and that should be appreciated. It is significant that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has ensured that the Americans will attend because the conference would have been much weaker without their presence. That must go to my right hon. Friend's credit. I am delighted that he is going to Camp David, and I hope that something even more positive will emerge from the discussions that will take place there.
In spite of everything that occupies the mind of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister--my gosh, he has enough on his plate at the moment--I hope that he will go to Rio on the basis that the general election is over and that there is a long period during which we can plan. He is in a position to raise the sights and, with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, give a lead to the concept of the Earth summit. It should not be allowed to descend into a haggle between north and south. There should not be an argument about whatever percentage of gross national product we are setting aside for aid at current levels. I would qualify that, however, by saying that I have always argued for a larger aid programme ; but that is not what the Rio summit is about. As others have said, it is the beginning of an essential process.
I find it hard to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) when he talks about eco-terrorism. It is a difficult concept. Anyone who has travelled widely in the third world will have been appalled by the changes that have taken place in the countries within it. In west Africa, in the Gambia, society has begun
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to die during the time that I have been a Member of this place. The trees are beginning to die because they cannot reach the water levels. During my political life it was possible to drive from Banjul to Dakar in Senegal and to be under trees throughout. Anyone who undertakes that journey now will be lucky to find a tree. The land has become scrub, and in five years' time it will be desert. The same is true of Mauritania. There has been significant physical change. That will be appreciated by those who have had the good fortune--at the same time, shocking experience--to see the picture of Africa from space over the past decade. If it is presented quickly quarter by quarter on a screen, it is clear that as each year passes the green areas contract. That is a significant example. We know that desertification is linked with drought, water and weather and weather patterns. I do not accept the concept of eco- terrorism. Instead, there should be eco-practicality and understanding.The Rio summit presents us with a welcome change of attitude. The World bank is often criticised, but its operational directive on poverty reduction, which was published only this month, is an example of changing attitudes. Many of us have taken part in writing a letter to the new president of the World bank, Lewis Preston. I think that more than half the Members of this place signed the letter, along with about 1,000 parliamentarians from about 30 countries throughout the world. We state in the letter that we want the World bank to change its attitudes, to recognise that there is poverty, and to accept the need for the alleviation of poverty. We want the World bank to consider relevant loan technologies. Members of all parties here and parliamentarians throughout the world can play a part in influencing positive changes of attitude.
There must be a sense of urgency at Rio and an understanding of a realistic time scale within which practical and workable measures can be introduced and implemented. That might present something of a conundrum, but there must be a sense of urgency. These matters cannot be left to future generations. We must not say, "Let us measure the problems for a little longer to see whether they become worse before we take any action." There is enough scientific evidence to show that the problems exist and are serious.
As I have said, the time scale must be realistic. It is no good saying, "If we do not increase our aid programme this year or next year, there will be disaster." We must transfer resources within a realistic time scale so that the measures that will stem from Agenda 21 and from the various conventions can be implemented and given time to work. If we are to have an intelligent pattern for the future, we cannot rely on the international conventions alone. I very much hope, of course, that we shall find it possible to sign the convention on biodiversity on which we have done so much work.
At the same time, we must take a critical view of United Nations operations. It is interesting that even on defence the United States is suggesting that the United Nations should have a greater role in terms of world policing and world peace. There is a tremendous new role for the United Nations in many areas. Those of us who are involved in Angola, Cambodia, or Namibia know of the important role that the United Nations plays in those countries. However, while everyone is prepared to say that the United Nations is the only organisation that can play that role, they are reluctant to provide the funds to meet
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the cost. That is probably the subject of another debate. A system is needed that will provide the United Nations with resources to undertake the functions that we ask it to perform.I mentioned the change in attitude among institutions such as the World bank and the International Monetary Fund. We must also examine critically regional policies. I agree with the hon. Member for Linlithgow that it is not a question of the north and south and of the developed countries dictating and even financing some of the changes necessary in other parts of the world. We should be encouraging less-developed countries to devise the kind of regional structure that we have in the European Community. Africa desperately needs a regional infrastructure and a way of developing its economy and environmental measures. That applies equally to Latin America and South-East Asia.
We need to consider also our bilateral aid programmes and the way in which we work with non-governmental organisations. Environmental NGOs have a much better public relations system, so they tend to enjoy more public support. The Earth summit is about the environment and development--the two go hand in hand. We need to ensure that the work of the NGOs is more closely integrated.
We must review also our domestic attitudes, in our own homes. A recent weekly television series showed six families in different countries-- including London, Norway, America and Japan--trying to lead an environmentally friendly life. It was fascinating to see families suddenly having to think about matters that they had not considered before, in making an environmental contribution without implementing any significant change in their lifestyles.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Linlithgow felt unable to sign a certain pledge. He obviously took it very seriously. I am not sure of the wording of the pledge or what put him off. Perhaps he will explain. About nine months ago, I signed a pledge that I hope is hanging on that tree in the global forum in Rio, along with many others. It not only pledged me and my family to do something about improving the environment but asked Governments and others to take action.
Mr. Dalyell : I would not sign the pledge because it said, "I will never buy anything made of tropical hardwoods." If we say that in Brazil, the Brazilians will argue that they must repay their debts to the west many times over, and that it is a question of selectivity. I am a trustee of the Scottish hardwood charter that was devised by David Bellamy, David Norman, and Jeremy Bristoe, among others. They are pioneering a way of ensuring genuinely sustainable hardwood imports.
Mr. Lester : I thank the hon. Gentleman for that explanation. If such a pledge had been put before me, I would not have signed it either. The pledge that I signed was rather more straitghtforward in terms of the commitment that I made and its request to other Governments to take action.
There lies ahead a massive task of communication at all levels. The most important of all, which Rio needs to reflect, is the task of communicating with the individual. Governments may sign conventions and make statements,
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but without public commitment they will not necessarily be honoured. I hope that as a result of this debate people in this country and elsewhere will be aware of the concern for, and commitment to, environmental issues that affect us all--which will be advanced at the Rio summit.7.14 pm
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester), whose contribution, as ever, was most thoughtful. It is refreshing and reassuring to hear views such as those he espoused coming from the Conservative Benches. The hon. Gentleman's views contrast starkly with the cynicism of the speech by the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney), and the banality of the speech by the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman).
The hon. Member for Broxtowe made a good point about the photosequence of Africa. It is not, as the hon. Member for Wycombe suggested, a question of eco-terrorism or of television companies confusing witless morons who watch nature programmes ; the evidence of our own eyes tells us that something is badly wrong.
When the hon. Member for Wycombe sneered at the green movement, that was unworthy even of him and his normal standards. I would listen more attentively to the green movement and those who are sympathetic to environmental problems than to the burblings of a cynical old politician.
Many issues could be raised in the context of the Rio summit, and several have already been mentioned. In addressing one point, I should not want anyone to conclude that I am not seized of all the other areas of concern.
In any report on biodiversity, the fate of the great whales and of the small cetaceans--dolphins and porpoises--must be a matter of enormous significance. I draw the attention of the House to two early-day motions signed by right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House. Since 1986, when the worldwide ban on commercial whaling was put in place, Japan alone has slaughtered 7,000 whales and more than 100,000 dolphins and porpoises. The Japanese Government's record is abysmal. Their attitude to animal resources is venal. Japan stands condemned as a nation before all civilised people for the way that it treats animal resources--and it does not stop at whales. There is a saying that if it has wings and is other than an aircraft, the Japanese will eat it ; and that if it has legs and is other than a chair, they will eat it. That is not a racist comment against the Japanese, but indicates that they have no respect for the welfare of other living creatures that share our planet and no concern for those of us who urge that the Japanese show more regard for the opinions of others.
The Japanese managed to get round the International Whaling Commission's moratorium on commercial whaling by claiming that they were indulging in scientific whaling. That consisted of sending whaling vessels to the Antarctic to slaughter minke whales--after experimenting to see how many were there. I put it to the Japanese that there were always fewer minke whales after they had started killing them. The meat from those whales ended up on plates in Tokyo restaurants.
That was abysmal because the good name of science was being perverted by the Japanese to get round the IWC ban. Minke whales now account for the largest stock of the
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big whales left in our seas. They number about 750,000. No one knows the correct figure, because whales do not stand around in neat groups waiting for scientists--Japanese or otherwise--to count them. However, we know that there are many fewer whales now than after the mass slaughtering that went on for many decades. The Japanese do not husband the whale. The hon. Member for Billericay spoke of husbanding resources. No one husbands the whales. They are not framed, in the sense of breeding followed by controlled slaughter. Whales, however, belong to every one of us : they belong to every hon. Member, indeed everyone in the country, just as much as they belong to people in Japan, Iceland and Greenland, although we do not do any whaling. This strikes me as a suitable occasion on which to draw Ministers' attention to the meeting of the International Whaling Commission that is due to take place in Glasgow towards the end of this month. The British Government have taken a good stand so far, and while they continue to do so they will have the wholehearted support of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) made a good point : when issues unite hon. Members on both sides of the House, we should be able to attend international conventions and speak as a united Parliament, so that no one misunderstands the breadth and depth of feeling--indeed, in some instances, the unanimity of feeling-- on some of these great issues. I am sorry that the Government did not seek such an opportunity earlier, but the Glasgow meeting will provide another chance.At that meeting, a report will be presented to delegates--including British delegates--that will undoubtedly lead to a demand for the return of quotas. A revised management procedure will be discussed. I put it to the Government that in no circumstances must that revised procedure be used by countries such as Japan, Iceland and Norway as an excuse to resume any form of commercial whaling.
Human beings have killed far too many of these magnificent, gentle and intelligent mammals. There are only 14,000 blue whales left in our seas. The blue whale is the largest mammal that has ever lived on the planet : it is far larger than the largest dinosaur. The sperm whale has a larger brain than any other mammal on earth. The humpback whale creates music of beauty and mystery. All that should make us want to study the mystery of these creatures in great depth, rather than to kill them and stick them on a plate with the Japanese equivalent of chips. That, surely, is a disrespectful and obscene way in which to treat such wonderful creatures.
Whether we are discussing large whales or small ones, the issue is not management but cruelty. Large whales are killed with a weapon called a Penthrite harpoon--an explosive harpoon whose head has two or four barbs and to which is screwed an explosive grenade. As the harpoon enters the whale's body, the grenade explodes as a result of the delayed-action fuse. Can anyone imagine a humane way of killing any creature with an explosive grenade?
In 1986, a Norwegian whaling inspector provided a detailed account of a whaling trip. On that trip, the 16 whales that were killed took a recorded average of 10 minutes to die. One whale was hit by an explosive Penthrite harpoon, followed by a non-explosive harpoon whose use was banned by the IWC in 1982. Eventually, the whale was killed after the use of a further eight bullets.
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That whale took 30 minutes to die. Although seven of the others died in less than a minute, the rest took between 11 and 30 minutes to do so. Eight received multiple injuries, and 14 of the 16 that were killed were pregnant at the time. I do not consider that to be husbanding the world's whale resources ; I consider it to be utter barbarism--behaviour which should have no place in our so-called civilised world.This is not a question of a revised management procedure. The issue is not whether enough whales are left for us to go out and kill a few more ; it is all about cruelty to a wonderful, magnificent creature. I believe that anyone who wants to kill whales is a barbarian and a savage--and that applies to the Japanese, the Icelanders and, indeed, the Norwegians. I implore the Government to ensure that there is no retreat from a ban on commercial whaling and to stand firm in resisting any demands for such a retreat from any of the countries concerned. In so doing, they will carry with them the full support of the House.
7.24 pm
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross) : It is always difficult to follow the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), but I share his concern for animals of all kinds and his views about their deaths at the hands of man. That, unfortunately, is an experience that all species frequently undergo, for purposes such as the feeding of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West.
The subject that we are debating contains a conundrum and, in a sense, a hypocrisy. Essentially, we are suggesting that the wealth, as it is called, of the developed world, as it is called, should be transferred to the 80 per cent. of the world that is called underdeveloped, so that that 80 per cent. can develop in the same way and remove poverty. I understand, however, that we are also complaining about the depletion of the world's resources. It strikes me as a strange and illogical equation to say that we should enable 80 per cent. of the world to do exactly the same as is being done by the 20 per cent. that is the subject of complaint. If we are concerned about the depletion of the world's resources, what contribution can we make by enabling another 80 per cent. of the population to deplete those resources ? That conundrum, surely, is at the heart of the argument that forms the basis of the Rio summit. As I said earlier, the removal of an entire rain forest was required to prepare the bumf for an exotic and magnificent fantasy--jamboree, even--in Rio de Janeiro, a city that I have often visited. I have visited the poorest parts of Rio and Sao Paulo, and other Brazilian cities, and I am not ignorant about the position there.
At 6.30 am the other day, it did not occur to me that we would be given an opportunity to debate this important subject. During the Maastricht debate that was taking place then, my right hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones)--the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs- -said to me, "One of the difficulties is this : if you once crack a joke and make people think that you are witty, they will never take you seriously." Let me make it clear that I have never had a more serious message to deliver to the House, the country, Rio and the world.
Amazingly, not a word has been said in the debate so far--or, if it has been said, it has featured in a fleeting sentence--about the human population explosion. I
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declare an interest ; indeed, I declare two interests. First, let me say that I will not add to that explosion. Secondly, let me tell the House that, in the face of terrible opposition, I set up the Brook advisory centre in Edinburgh, with the aim of preventing unintended pregnancies in Scotland. I did so on the day that Malcolm Muggeridge gave his sermon on "pot and pill", and the entire medical profession--let alone the Calvinist population--was seriously and vindictively opposed to the move.Let me give the House, so that they may be on the record, some of the figures--the gunpowder of the human population explosion. If we consider those figures, the chances for the whales are nil. It is said in the Rio documents that 95 per cent. of child deaths are preventable, but what is being done to prevent them? It is said that 80 per cent. of all diseases can be cured, but what is being done to cure them? It is said that drought in sub-Saharan Africa led to 30 million deaths in the past five years, but what did the population of sub-Saharan Africa do in the past five years? It rose by 300 million.
On 11 June 1987, the population of the earth passed 5,000 million. It increases by 1 million people every three days. Every 24 hours, there are 1 million conceptions on earth, of which a third are aborted. Every year, 80 million people are added to our planet. The Queen was in China for 10 days, during which time the population of China increased by twice the population of Scotland--10 million people. I am informed by those who know that every time we increase a population of any sophistication by one fifth we have to double its infrastructure : schools, roads, universities, water, housing, medical services.
Let us consider the concept. If the present increase in the population of the world had occurred since the birth of Jesus Christ, there would now be 900 people for every square yard of habitable earth. In 1839, we first achieved 1,000 million people on earth. One hundred years later, there were 2,000 million, 30 years later 3,000 million, 15 years later 4,000 million and 11 years later--in 1986--5, 000 million. In 25 years' time, there will be 10,000 million people on earth.
It is no good talking in Rio about whales, ecosystems, rain forests and all the other matters. Even at this moment, the food requirement for populations at subsistence level throughout the world has to be doubled every five years. In 10 years' time, it will be every two years. In 20 years' time, it will be every six months. Those are the matters that we should really be discussing in Rio--not how to save the blue insect or the rain forests but how to restrict what is causing, and will increasingly cause, their inevitable destruction. I am astonished, having read the papers on Rio, that the subject of the population increase of the human species--homo sapiens, so he is called, though I do not see much sapiens about him--is not considered to be the cause of all our problems. We are fiddling with the effects of the human population increase without for one moment attempting to address it.
I have been a member of World Population Crisis for a long time. I do not know whether people realise that, despite the abominable casualties of the first world war and the second world war and the genocides of Stalinist Russia, the populations of Europe and Russia never ceased to rise during those times. I do not know whether
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people realise that in Ethiopia, which is suffering from famine and civil war, the population has not ceased to rise. Mozambique--seven times the size of France, one of the most prosperous countries in the world and with one of the best climates in the world--says that the fact that 60,000 people are going to die every month will only halve the increase in its population. All the nations of the world must address the issue of population control. That has to be done by education and information. It has to be done sensibly and sensitively.Let me turn to some of the myths. If a developing country is poor, it is said that people breed in order to provide for the family. That does not explain Hong Kong, Sri Lanka, or Kenya. Kenya is the most developed country of sub-Saharan Africa north of South Africa, yet its population is totally out of control. It enjoys prosperity from its tourist industry. It is self- sufficient in hydro-electricity. Kenya has considerable wealth, compared with the rest of Africa, but its population is flying out of control.
I went to Brazil 10 years ago, when the population was 162 million, of whom 68 million were under nine years old. I wonder what the population is now? I do not know whether the Minister can tell us. When it comes to aid--as though one can sort of buy off poverty--what has happened to the aid that we gave to Brazil? It was spent on a railway line which the then president built from the capital to his constituency in the north of Brazil. That is what has happened to the aid.
Let us consider the idea that development is the best form of population control and contraception. It is not. It demonstrably is not so anywhere on earth.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : I have been following the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument closely. How does he explain what is happening in the state of Kerala in southern India? Does that not prove that what the hon. and learned Gentleman is saying is incorrect?
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : No. That is achieved by a simple bribe programme--people are given a radio set. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have been through India. It is simply a holding operation--a finger in the dam that lets the water come over the top. It simply is not working. One has only to look at Delhi, Calcutta, Punjab and Kashmir, where the populations are exploding exponentially.
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