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Mr. Alan Williams : I consulted the Clerk of the House before making that proposal, and he agreed that there is nothing to stop the House making such a rule if it so wished. The advantage of the system is that it retains the requirement to which the Minister referred--that, where possible, every Welsh Member should be able to take part.

Mr. Jones : I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is correct, but I doubt whether there is any precedent for doing it. The House can do what it wants. I feel that it would be at variance with the way in which things have been done before to have such a large Committee. However, I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for one thing. He was the first speaker, apart from me, to acknowledge that there is a serious inconsistency in Standing Order No. 86 that has to be dealt with. That is what the motion will achieve.

Mr. Morgan : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister to assert that the Standing Orders of the House have an inherent contradiction within them that makes them inoperable?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That seems to me to be a double negative. I ask the hon. Gentleman to rethink his point.

Mr. Jones : The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) was concerned about the precedents that the debate was establishing. I do not regard what we are doing as setting a precedent. I cannot do anything that will bind the House in the future. Whatever we choose to do is entirely a matter for the House of Commons. I can say no more or less.

Mr. Michael : I must make it clear that I was asking the hon. Gentleman, not to bind the House, but to bind the Government in relation to the important Bills on the Welsh language and the reorganisation of local government structure in Wales. The Minister comes to the Dispatch Box on behalf of the Government and I ask him to bind them, not the House.

Mr. Jones : The hon. Gentleman said that he did not catch my earlier remarks, but I know that the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) did. It always remains for the House to decide what it will do on future occasions. I can say no more and no less than that. I acknowledge that the hon. Member for Caerphilly echoed the concern expressed by his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth.

Mr. Michael : If the Minister had the authority to do so, he could say that neither he nor his ministerial colleagues would seek to exempt the application of the Standing Order to the Committee stage of the Bills on the Welsh language and Welsh local government. That would greatly assist the House. Surely the Government can give that assurance now. If the Government wish to show respect to the House and accept the important points of principle that we raised about those two Bills, it is open to the Minister to offer that assurance on their behalf.

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Mr. Jones : I have been clear and concise. Whatever the legislation, I cannot commit the House. It will be for the House to consider the issue as and when specific legislation is discussed.

Mr. Alan Williams : The Minister should think again about my suggestion. He rejected it only on the ground that there is no precedent for it, but he accepted that, according to the advice of the Clerks, it is procedurally possible and appropriate. Can he quote any precedent for what the Government are now doing by forcing through a change against the wishes of the Welsh Members?

Mr. Jones : I have already dealt with the right hon. Gentleman's point. I hope that we can proceed on an unopposed basis ; that is what I am seeking to persuade the right hon. Gentleman to do. Finally, I must refer to my old school chum, the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). I should congratulate him on making his shortest and most concise contribution to date on the Bill. I even detected a note of sympathy in his speech, as he conceded that we must find the best way forward. However, I do not accept his argument that the motion represents a Government attempt to ram the Bill through the House. He also invented notions about exempt principles in the Standing Order that I cannot see. His sum case was for the preservation of an inconsistency--in itself an inconsistency that should not be allowed.

The motion represents the best way forward and the best response to the existing inconsistency. With all due respect to the right hon. Member for Swansea, West, it is a far better answer than that which he proposed. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 191, Noes 86.

Division No. 27] [11.48 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Amess, David

Ancram, Michael

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Beresford, Sir Paul

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Chaplin, Mrs Judith

Chapman, Sydney

Clappison, James

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cran, James

Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Elletson, Harold

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Fishburn, John Dudley

Forth, Eric

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Freeman, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Gardiner, Sir George

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Column 274

Garnier, Edward

Gillan, Ms Cheryl

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Gorst, John

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hargreaves, Andrew

Harris, David

Hawkins, Nicholas

Hawksley, Warren

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Jenkin, Bernard

Jessel, Toby

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B. (W H'f'rdshire)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Key, Robert

Kilfedder, James

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Lawrence, Ivan

Legg, Barry

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

Luff, Peter

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

Malone, Gerald

Mans, Keith

Marlow, Tony

Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Merchant, Piers

Milligan, Stephen

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Moate, Roger

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moss, Malcolm

Neubert, Sir Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholls, Patrick

Oppenheim, Phillip

Page, Richard

Patnick, Irvine

Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Pickles, Eric

Porter, David (Waveney)

Richards, Rod

Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)

Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)

Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Speed, Keith

Spencer, Sir Derek

Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)

Spink, Dr Robert

Sproat, Iain

Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Stephen, Michael

Stern, Michael

Stewart, Allan

Streeter, Gary

Sweeney, Walter

Sykes, John

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M. (Solihull)

Thomason, Roy

Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thurnham, Peter

Tracey, Richard

Tredinnick, David

Trend, Michael

Twinn, Dr Ian

Viggers, Peter

Walden, George

Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

Waller, Gary

Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

Waterson, Nigel

Watts, John

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Sir John

Whittingdale, John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wilkinson, John

Willetts, David

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)

Wood, Timothy

Yeo, Tim

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Andrew MacKay and

Mr. Robert G. Hughes.

NOES

Ainger, Nicholas

Barnes, Harry

Bayley, Hugh

Beggs, Roy

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Betts, Clive

Boyce, Jimmy

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Caborn, Richard

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cox, Tom

Cryer, Bob

Cunningham, Dr John (C'p'l'nd)

Dafis, Cynog

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Evans, John (St Helens N)

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