House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Jun 1992

Mr. John Bowis (Battersea) : I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Austin-Walker) and especially to his point about marches. He spoke about the balance needed between the right to march and the right not to have one's civil rights interfered with by such marches. I hope that he will return to that matter.

I also listened carefully to the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Grant), who said that everyone agreed with him. I certainly agreed with one particular point. He referred to the Irish dimension and I join him, if I heard him aright, in suggesting that Home Office Ministers might consider the discrimination--if one calls it that--of the Irish being excluded from section 11 grants. The hon. Gentleman also gave some horrendous examples of what is happening in Europe and he was right to do so, even if it went a little beyond the terms of the motion. I am sure that we need to consider those problems as we take on the presidency in Europe.

As the hon. Gentleman spoke, it struck me that the more I listened to him, the more I realised how fortunate we are not to have such circumstances in this country. The more one thinks about that, the more one realises that the reason why we do not have such circumstances is that we have a firm view of the kind expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) in his excellent maiden speech. He proved himself to be a true inheritor of Disraeli's seat and of Disraeli's philosophy on these

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matters. I hope that we shall hear him putting that view on many occasions. Such views are the surest way in which we shall have good race relations in this country.

I could not be here without the support of many people of many ethnic and racial origins. Some 25 per cent. of my constituents come from other parts of the world, especially from black countries, whether in Africa or in the Caribbean, and from the Asian communities. I am scarcely conscious nowadays of the colour of my constituents. We have become far more colour blind. They are people, they are constituents, they have problems and they show me the opportunities they have seized. I have worked happily with them. I hope that increasingly we shall not need debates such as this, as people from different backgrounds or from different parts of the world who have come to live here feel themselves part of our United Kingdom.

I remember that great Conservative candidate Lurleen Champagne saying--[ Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear."] I am delighted to hear Opposition cheers. Her great statement was that she was black, she was British, she was Conservative--and she was proud of all three. We can be proud of that as well.

Mr. Vaz : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Bowis : No. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I must hasten through my speech.

The debate has raised a number of issues, including the central issue of jobs. I welcome what has been said about jobs, and I welcome what the Government are doing about job opportunities and the way in which they seek to end any discrimination that there may be. The solution is linked with education and training, and with providing opportunities there.

We must also ensure that there are opportunities in appointments. I want to see more role models from different communities among our police and our magistrates so that people see the opportunities and feel that those in authority are as much their people as anybody's. We need to consider the whole question of tolerance in our society, and religious tolerance is part of that. We can find ways in which to make religious practice more possible. It is a two-way movement. I have done what I can to ensure, for example, that my Muslim community has adequate burial grounds of the type needed for its religious practice. I am entitled to ask those Muslims to ensure that the Muslim community responds, not least in those Muslim countries where religious tolerance is not the norm. In that way, we can get a better understanding round the world.

I have touched on Muslim issues and there are a number that we should study carefully. Early in the debate, my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary referred to voluntary-aided schools. He is right in suggesting that there is no discrimination in the way in which the Muslim communities have been unable to obtain voluntary-aided schools to date. However, there are obstacles which I should like to see removed. If one obstacle is the definition of "available places", we must try to find a better way to define that term. The same is true of single-sex schools. I was glad to hear the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) acknowledge that the Labour party's policy on single-sex schools may be changing so that there could be the opportunity for such schools, and for hospitals for women.

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One of the most important issues, from the Muslim point of view, is the need to consider the anti-discrimination law. Following the 1991 Sheffield judgment, it is felt that the law should be clarified and possibly amended. The Muslim community feel that they have been excluded from protection measures that apply to Christians, Jews, Sikhs and others.

Let me also ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to discuss with his colleagues ways in which we can help people in this country when disasters occur elsewhere in the world. When a natural disaster took place in Bangladesh, involving floods, death and destruction, many people in this country were affected because they were related to the victims. In such cases, relatives often do not know what is happening. I believe that we could help them by providing a more efficient source of information, and by recognising the need for counselling, especially bereavement counselling. I hope that the policy so eloquently described by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury--and, earlier, by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary--will continue. It is a "one-nation" policy. Many peoples have come to this nation : Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Romans, Normans, Huguenots and Jews ; more recently, Jamaicans, Bengalis and Ghanaians, among others ; and, more recently still, the Somalis and Ethiopians who have come to my constituency. I hope that we can continue to prove to the world that we can provide a one-nation society that sets an example to the rest of the world, demonstrating how people from different backgrounds can preserve their own identity while nevertheless integrating in a happy and forward-looking society.

6.41 pm

Mr. Alistair Darling (Edinburgh, Central) : This has been a short debate--perhaps too short. We have heard only one maiden speech, from the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington). I enjoyed the tour of his constituency that he provided : in common with many other Scottish Members, I have flown over it often enough, waiting to land at Heathrow, and I was interested to learn about what goes on beneath the clouds. I agreed with what the hon. Gentleman said about racial attacks, too. He will be pleased to learn that, judging by the Minister's expression--which, of course, he could not see at the time--his criticism of the Home Office delays in dealing with the section 11 review struck home.

The Tory attitude to this issue is interesting. The Government amendment, and the Home Secretary's speech, sit very ill with what the Tory party does in practice--especially before general elections. Before the election, the Asylum Bill was said to be desperately needed. Where is it now? Immediately before the election, the former Home Secretary made what I can only describe as a very grubby speech in which he attempted to equate immigration with proportional representation. He spoke of "a pact with the devil". He must feel very hard done by, finding himself on the Back Benches again, although many Conservative Members owe their presence in the House to what he said before the election. I am sorry to note that not one of the signatories to the Government amendment has ever seen fit to repudiate what he--and, indeed, other Conservative Members--said then. Racism and fascism are, of course, completely independent of the electoral system. The riots in Los

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Angeles, for example, took place in a town where--as far as I am aware--everyone is elected under the first-past-the- post system. Racism and fascism are on the increase in Europe because the ingredients on which they feed are present : unemployment, poor housing and poverty. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Grant) pointed out, such elements have little to do with immigration controls, which are entirely independent of those who feed on people's fears and turn understandable concern into prejudice by pandering to the worst of those fears. That is happening all over Europe.

Moreover, more and more people throughout Europe are becoming disillusioned with their Governments, because those Governments are not tackling the problems that they are experiencing. They feel that Governments do not care for them, and that they have no chance of bettering their position. That sense of injustice, frustration and powerlessness is not helped by such remarks as that made by the Home Secretary, who said, when discussing criminal justice in this country, that the statistics did not show racial bias. They certainly seem to show something. We can all see that black and Asian defendants are treated differently from white defendants, and I feel that the Home Secretary owes it to the House and to our citizens to pay attention to the injustices in our criminal system rather than dismissing them as a statistical aberration.

The Government know that there are problems, and they ignore those problems at their peril. Must we really wait for unrest before anything is done? Cannot the Government realise that, if the problems are not tackled as a matter of urgency, we shall experience difficulties that we have not experienced for years?

The Government seem to dismiss the question of contract compliance. The Prime Minister says that he wants to live in a classless society--a society that is at ease with itself. Surely, if that is true, the Government should examine the imbalances in employment law. Companies operating in areas where there is a mixed population are employing a preponderance of one part of that population--and it is not just a question of ethnic monitoring. It is sometimes helpful to examine a company's total work force, and we find all too often that ethnic minorities are doing the unskilled jobs at the lower end of the employment scale. There are not all that many managing directors from the ethnic minorities.

The Government seem to have accepted that something must be done about the gender imbalance, but they are apparently not prepared to take the same positive action to deal with the ethnic imbalance. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich (Mr. Austin-Walker), they have tackled the problem in Northern Ireland, but they do not seem to be willing to do the same for race relations in mainland Britain.

My hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham made an important point. He said that we must not ignore the influence of local authority funding : in many instances, local authorities are taking the lead in trying to redress imbalances in employment, but time and again cuts and capping deprive them of funds to tackle the problems.

Other hon. Members have mentioned the Commission for Racial Equality and its proposals for the overhaul of the Race Relations Act 1976. The Act is in need of overhaul, and it is no great secret that the CRE held off from making proposals during the premiership of Lady Thatcher--as she now is-- because it suspected that the Government would take the opportunity to undermine the

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Act. I hope that the Minister, when he winds up the debate, will tell us the Government's responses to the CRE's constructive proposals--in particular, its proposals to increase its power to investigate discrimination. We have heard about discrimination in regard to housing and social security. I believe that the CRE should be given powers to instigate investigations on its own account, rather than having to wait until it receives an individual complaint. That sometimes leads to difficulties.

The Home Secretary hinted at a review of section 11 funding. If the Government are indeed to embark on such a review, will the Minister tell us whether section 11 funding will be extended to Scotland, where it has never yet been provided? We live in a United Kingdom, and many areas in Scotland could benefit from such funding. The situation in Europe has also been mentioned. Both my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham and the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) pointed out that many of our constituents face considerable difficulties in travelling in Europe, and will continue to do so after 1993, when the barriers come down in continental Europe and people are more liable to be stopped and asked to account for themselves. We believe that black and Asian people will be especially affected. Unless protection is provided across Europe for the rights of our constituents and all other ethnic minorities, discrimination will continue.

As has been said, the Government could take the opportunity during their presidency of the Commission to promote a directive against racial discrimination. I am afraid that the Home Secretary is right to some extent : no matter how deficient the legislation is in this country, few European countries have legislation anywhere near as strong. If the Government are serious about promoting good race relations--not just in this country--they should raise with other member states the possibility of a directive to strike against racial discrimination across Europe. It is badly needed.

If we are moving into a Europe that has no frontiers, the need for citizens to have rights that they can exercise not just in their own country but in every country in the EC becomes more important, and nowhere more so than a directive striking against racial discrimination. That and a Bill of Rights that we could use throughout Europe would be a significant step forward in redressing the balance between the citizen and the state, not just in this country but in the European Community as a whole. A Bill of Rights would go some way to redressing the problems that are now occurring in the practice and operation of our immigration rules.

This debate is not about immigration, but it is difficult to discuss the difficulties that are being faced by many of our citizens without mentioning the immigration rules. All of us know that, whether it is intended or not--it does not matter how it came about--very few white people ever have any difficulty with immigration authorities in this country. Invariably we find--I found them when I visited Heathrow and spoke to the immigration officials--attitudes that are quite clearly conditioned by an ethos in the immigration and nationality department which tells them that black and Asian people are different. I heard it said by one immigration officer, "You know what these people are like--sir," he added, remembering that some respect had to be shown for a Member of Parliament.

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It is interesting that the Home Secretary had no defence at all to the anomaly that was raised when we discussed the primary-purpose rule. Why is it that a French citizen can come into this country with his non-EC spouse and their dependants without let or hindrance, yet if a British citizen wishes to contract a marriage with someone who is not an EC citizen, especially someone who is black or Asian and is not an EC citizen, he or she must pass the primary-purpose rule ? Getting their children to join them presents even greater difficulties. That is a double standard, and it is absurd. The Government will have to tackle it whether they like it or not. It might be better if the Government themselves were to tackle it rather than wait for the European Court to tell them that they have to scrap the rule. The primary-purpose rule is indefensible and it needs to be tackled.

I also agree with my hon. Friends that, especially following the scrapping of hon. Members' rights to make representations, the lack of any effective right of review of the operation of the immigration rules means that decisions are becoming increasingly absurd and increasingly open to challenge because immigration officers know that there is no effective challenge to their decisions. It is no use saying to somebody, "Go back 3,000 or 4,000 miles and appeal," because very often the reason for the visit may have passed by that time.

The Government must accept that the immigration rules are discriminatory. To some extent, all immigration rules are discriminatory, by their very nature, but unless the Government address the injustices, the sense of frustration that many of our citizens feel is likely to increase.

If the Government want a classless society that is at ease with itself, they must too realise that many of our citizens feel that they are not wanted and are forgotten by the Government. Yes, it is all very well to put fine words in the amendment and for an emollient speech to be made by the Home Secretary, but the people of this country see what the Government did, what their spokespeople did before the election, and what they did in practice. Unfortunately, Government action is very different from the words of the debate. I very much hope that, when we return to the subject, which will not be in the too-distant future, the Government will at least have some concrete and positive proposals to put before the House.

6.52 pm

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : I have listened to the debate with interest and close attention. As my time is very short, and as I may not otherwise refer to him, I should particularly like to single out the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington). He made a first-rate maiden speech. He displayed that informed good judgment that is to be expected from a former political adviser to the Home Office and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and an admirable anger and disgust at racial attacks. The House will also have warmed to his remarks about his predecessors, particularly his tribute to Tim Raison, who is much liked and much respected on both sides of the Chamber. Hon. Members look forward to hearing from my hon. Friend again. The debate has properly ranged widely, as race relations bear on most aspects of our national life. It has

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occasioned strong feelings as well. That is natural as discrimination can have a powerful impact on the lives of those in minority communities. I have no quarrel with hon. Members who draw attention to the discrimination that undoubtedly exists. That is why the Government are pursuing vigorously policies designed to end racial discrimination and disadvantage and to promote equal opportunity.

However, it is extraordinary that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) should argue, as he did and as his party does in the motion, that ethnic minorities receive less than their fair share of national resources when, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary reminded the House, vast programmes are directed to the inner cities where the great majority of ethnic minority communities live. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, those programmes amount to about £4 billion a year. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook sought to justify that remark by saying that resources had been withdrawn from local government. But local government spending has continued to rise, and the Government's contribution to that expenditure is distributed fairly across the country by the rate grant formula that was agreed with local authorities. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook simply did not make out his case on resources, hence our amendment. I had much more sympathy with some of the other points that he made. The right hon. Gentleman talked about discrimination in jobs and the higher ratio of unemployment suffered by ethnic minorities. He was right to do so, although he was wrong to ascribe, if I heard him correctly, all the problems to discrimination. He felt that the anti-discrimination law, which impinges only indirectly on individual cases, was inadequate, but he forgets that the CRE has effectively used certain cases to open negotiations with companies and organisations to change their recruitment and promotion policies for the better. British Rail is a successful case in point. The CRE has also helped the police to develop their policies, too. We can see the benefits of that. Persuasion, backed by the law, is the right way. The right hon. Gentleman referred to ethnic monitoring, as did several hon. Members. It has a useful role. We have it in the police, the prison service and the probation service, and, through the Criminal Justice Act 1991, we have a statutory obligation to monitor the impact of the criminal justice system on minorities. That will both illumine the right hon. Gentleman's point and show the way to the solution of problems such as bail, which he mentioned. The right hon. Gentleman referred also to the desire of ethnic minorities to be visited by their non-resident relatives, and he spoke as though the natural wish is constantly being thwarted. It is not. [Interruption.] Each year, from the Indian sub-continent, for example, come more than 200,000 short-term visitors. They get their visas within 24 hours of applying. For the most part, they apply for them in new purpose-built visa sections that are designed to make visa applications more comfortable and efficient. Far from discouraging bona fide visitors, we welcome them. Alas, a proportion are not bona fide visitors ; entry clearance officers refuse up to 16 per cent. of visa applicants from the ISC--

Several Hon. Members rose --

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Mr. Lloyd : No, I shall not give way.

They are refused because the ECOs are not satisfied that they intend just to visit rather than stay. The overwhelming number of applicants are given visas. Alas, of that number, a sizeable proportion overstay. Last year, one in 12 Pakistani visitors with a visa applied for asylum at the end of their visit in order to remain here. In the light of those facts, I just do not believe that entry clearance officers are generally ready to say no when they should say yes. They might say no when they should say yes at times ; but it is equally clear that they say yes when they should say no.

I have only a few moments left, although I have many points to cover. I conclude by saying that none of us wants any member of our ethnic minorities to be denied the opportunities that Britain has to offer. Discrimination and disadvantage have no place in British society. We are seeking with thoroughness and determination to root them out. That is why I ask the House to reject the Opposition motion and to support the amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question :

The House divided : Ayes 264, Noes 311.

Division No. 25] [7.00 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nicholas

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Margaret

Beith, A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyce, Jimmy

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Ms Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ronald (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Cann, James

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clapham, Michael

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Coffey, Ms Ann

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Corston, Ms Jean

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Dr John (C'p'l'nd)

Dafis, Cynog

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Denham, John

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, William

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fisher, Mark

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Derek (B'p Auckland)

Foster, Donald (Bath)

Foulkes, George

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