House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Jun 1992

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Mr. Meacher : We shall see. The Secretary of State also said : "there is also a moral question, which we invite the banks and other financial institutions to answer."

My last, and perhaps most important, quotation is this : "the onus is on those who had dealings with Maxwell in the past to examine their consciences and to see whether they should share the profits that they made in the past with those who suffered a great loss at the hands of Maxwell."- -[ Official Report, 8 June 1992 ; Vol. 209, c. 19-24.]

Mr. Lilley : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Meacher : I have been quoting the right hon. Gentleman's words, so I would be glad to allow him to intervene.

Mr. Lilley : The motion before the House urges the Government to underwrite the pensions of existing and future pensioners. Is it not the case that, if we did so, the chance of anyone contributing to pensions or returning a single stolen security voluntarily and ahead of time would be zero?

Mr. Meacher : I am coming on to exactly that point. [ Hon. Members :-- "Oh."] I know that that is often used to evade the issue--

Mr. Rupert Allason (Torbay) : Read Lord Williams and

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Allason) is out of order.

Mr. Meacher : The Secretary of State has come to the core of the matter. He is keeping down the Government's contribution so as to ensure that others will still have an incentive to make a contribution. If they do not, we shall have the disadvantages of both worlds--no contributions and a tiny Government commitment. As I made clear in Question Time yesterday, I believe that the Government should underwrite those pensions and then use the powers at their disposal to ensure that they get the money back from the banks and institutions.

Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Meacher : No, I want to move on, and I am conscious that other Members wish to speak. I may give way later on.

Mr. Lilley : By definition, the legal powers are already available. We are asking people to go beyond their legal obligations to their moral obligations. In those circumstances, if the moral obligations have already been underwritten by the Government, what possibility is there of anybody fulfilling his moral obligations? What powers does the hon. Gentleman suggest that I should take to force people to meet their moral obligations?

Mr. Meacher : I am about to deal with that exact issue. The right hon. Gentleman will then see that he does have the powers ; the problem is that he does not want to use them because he wants to keep the scheme voluntary so that the City might be prepared to give the odd contribution if it chooses. If the right hon. Gentleman really believes his comments of yesterday, which I quoted, he is more naive than I thought. The City is about as conscious-stricken as Maxwell was law-abiding.

It could not be clearer that the Government have one law for the City and another for the trade unions. The

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National Union of Mineworkers was pursued by an army of lawyers, and its funds were sequestrated because it failed to hold a ballot. The banks, which are holding on to £200 million in stolen assets, are given a limp slap on the wrist and then told to examine their consciences.

The right hon. Gentleman has said again today that he has no powers to force the banks' hands, but he has those powers and I shall tell him what they are. For the banks to operate, their banking licence must be reviewed regularly. I submit to the Secretary of State that it would be perfectly proper to threaten to refuse to renew the licence of any bank which is knowingly holding on to stolen assets and which refuses to hand them back. If he or his colleagues have those powers, why does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to use them? They could secure the outcome that we all want to see. That is the question he must answer.

There is another reason why the right hon. Gentleman should take a much tougher line. It is frankly deeply offensive to the Maxwell pensioners, living on the edge of poverty, to be offered a few pounds to keep them going while those who perpetrated the scandal are still living openly and legally in the lap of luxury. Not only does Kevin Maxwell still live in a £1.5 million Chelsea home, but he and his brother are allowed by the liquidators to draw a weekly living allowance of £1,500 from their otherwise frozen bank accounts. Apparently, they even have the money to consider establishing a new media empire. We are told that Mr. Larry Trachtenberg still has the free use of a £350,000 bonus that he received from London and Bishopsgate holdings for services rendered. What are the Government doing when, nine months later, the guilty still enjoy all the trappings of wealth while the victims are fobbed off with an average of £18 a week each, if they get anything at all?

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : Does my hon. Friend agree that the two Maxwell brothers showed total contempt for the House of Commons when they refused to answer questions before the Select Committee on Social Security? They carry on with their millionaire lifestyle and show contempt for the victims, but, as my hon. Friend said, the Government show no concern whatsoever. It will be interesting to learn whether the Attorney- General will make a statement to the House--he should make it as quickly as possible--on when criminal prosecutions will occur.

Mr. David Shaw (Dover) : On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Members of the Select Committee on Social Security were extremely upset, to say the least, when the Maxwell brothers came to us and said that they wanted a right of silence. We took extensive advice about that from within the House of Commons. At least one statement made yesterday about the Maxwell brothers might prejudice a fair trial, so will you advise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it would be helpful if all hon. Members did not seek to make cheap points at the expense of a fair trial?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The matter is not sub judice.

Mr. Meacher : I now turn to the question of the £2.5 million. It is a tiny amount precisely because of the Government's voluntary approach, which the Secretary of State made clear a few moments ago. He admitted that his rescue package must be small, otherwise it would let the

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banks and the other financial institutions off the hook from having to contribute. That means that the Maxwell pensioners will be left in the middle between the hard-nosed meanness in the City and the feebleness of the right hon. Gentleman in failing to enforce reimbursement. Instead of shilly-shallying with appeals to consciences and for discretionary contributions, the right hon. Gentleman should be underwriting the pensions in full and using every legal means and every other lawful pressure to make certain that the banks and the other institutions repay. That is the gap in the rescue package.

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) rose --

Mr. Iain Duncan-Smith (Chingford) rose --

Mr. Dickens rose --

Mr. Meacher : I shall give way to the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens).

Mr. Dickens : As we are examining our consciences, does my hon. Friend--I call him my hon. Friend because he represents a seat in Oldham-- recall the way in which Labour Members, at each party conference, fought their way through the picket line of printers to get to Maxwell's champagne ? Will the Labour party return to the pension funds the contributions that it received from Robert Maxwell ? Labour Members are frightened of the Minister asking for people to examine their consciences because that means that the Labour party must start to examine its own.

Mr. Meacher : As usual, the red-faced hon. Gentleman brings a serious issue into contempt.

The fact is that the Government's figures do not add up. The Secretary of State's case is that the £2.5 million is enough to keep the pension funds afloat until the £100 million is released from the common investment board in about six months' time. Even then, that will leave a shortfall of £458 million. The Government hope that the banks will repay £217 million of that, and they hope, perhaps dream would be more appropriate, that the remaining £241 million will be covered by voluntary contributions. That is about as likely as Mrs. Thatcher becoming Prime Minister again. I know that is something that the right hon. Gentleman devoutly desires, but it will not happen. As everyone can surely see, at the end of the day, there will be a huge hole in the Maxwell finances. It is perfectly clear that, after all the political hoo-hah has died down, as the Government hope, it will be the deferred pensioners-- those who intend to retire in 10 to 20 years time--who will draw the short straw. Such is the cynical calculation that the Government have made and it is one that the rest of us, who have any belief in justice, must stop by making sure that the issue does not go away.

The right hon. Gentleman's rescue package is a huge con. It is designed to give cover to 6,000 pensioners only, when, with the wind-down of the Maxwell Media Corporation staff scheme and AGB funds, more than 12,000 are likely to require support in the next few months. There is no guarantee of a 100 per cent. top-up and the scheme will last only until the common investment fund is divided up. As I said, that is not the end of the problem. After a temporary respite, we shall be left with a much more serious long-term problem.

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The provision of only £2.5 million to Maxwell pensioners is an insult when compared to the £160 million that was made available to the Barlow Clowes offshore speculators. Even the belated implementation of section 58B of the Social Security Act 1990, for which I am glad, will do almost nothing for the Maxwell pensioners unless they are made preferential creditors. I strongly press that course on the right hon. Gentleman, even at this stage. Until he takes powers that are adequate to the scale of the problem and recognises that hawking his begging bowl round the City is not only undignified but no answer to the scale of the crisis, the rescue package will remain a charade. We have tabled our motion to test the seriousness of the right hon. Gentleman's purpose.

7.40 pm

The Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Peter Lilley) : I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof :

"shares a deep concern for the distress pensioners face as a result of the pillaging of pension funds by Robert Maxwell ; applauds the initiative taken by the Government to provide temporary, emergency funding to help those schemes which have a particularly acute short term problem ; and, while welcoming the decision to initiate a thorough review of the framework of pension scheme law, notes with approval the important part that occupational pensions continue to play in ensuring increasing prosperity among the retired population of this country."

It is a pleasure, on our second encounter, to follow the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher), although I shall not be following him along his customary route, which is to go straight over the top, as he did again today.

Characteristically, the hon. Gentleman lambasted the Government response to the Maxwell affair. But he has misunderstood the problem, misrepresented the facts and misjudged the mood of the House. The House recognises that this is not an area for glib statements, easy solutions or partisan attacks. Most hon. Members support the carefully constructed package of measures that I announced yesterday. They have certainly been welcomed across a wide spectrum of opinion outside the House. The Times and The Independent both recognise that it would be wrong for the Government to underwrite the deficit left by Maxwell's theft. So does The Guardian. Its leader said that

"it would have been wrong--as the all-party social security select committee has noted--for the Government simply to bale out the bankrupt pension schemes. A much more subtle approach is needed The Government's strategy is both clear and sensible Mr. Lilley had a balance to strike yesterday between short-term pressure and long-term reconstruction the initial balance is there."

I hope that by quoting The Guardian I have not discouraged the paper from supporting me again.

Dr. Hampson : There was an aspect of yesterday's welcome package that I hope my right hon. Friend will clarify. It concerns those Leeds pensioners who have lost their pensions for two months. There was no clear commitment yesterday that those payments would be paid retrospectively. Can my right hon. Friend relieve them of their anxiety?

Mr. Lilley : I cannot ensure that-- [Interruption.] --but it is certainly the intention that payment will be made henceforth and that the grant will enable that payment to be made. I shall look into the point that my hon. Friend raises.

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Before dealing further with the remarks of the hon. Member for Oldham, West, I wish to pay tribute to the efforts of the all-party group on occupational pensions and the members of the Select Committee on Social Security in the last Parliament. It is a longstanding convention that occupants of this Bench, when presenting welcome proposals, present them as if they were entirely their own ideas, immaculately conceived and produced without any outside influence. I believe that the package that I announced yesterday would have been developed in direct response to the plight of pensioners without any outside prompting, but it is only fair to admit that the efforts of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and of my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page) made its arrival all the more certain. I am grateful to them, to members of the all-party group and to members of the Select Committee on Social Security in the last Parliament. All of them were rowing in the same direction and we have all converged on similar ideas.

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : Many welcome the fact that there is to be a committee of inquiry, as announced by the right hon. Gentleman yesterday, into the structure of pension funds. But does he accept that the disaster of the Maxwell pension fund was, in a sense, a disaster waiting to happen because of the inadequacy of the legal framework surrounding the ownership and control of pension funds and the degree of self-regulation that exists in the City? While I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's need for a committee of inquiry, does he not think that 12 months is too long in this matter and that we need action more urgently to protect all the other pension funds and contributors to pension funds throughout the country from the kind of appalling scandal that we, through the Select Committee, have uncovered in the case of the Maxwell empire?

Mr. Lilley : No, I would not accept that it was inevitable that the Maxwell fraud would be perpetrated. To the extent that it, or the questions that have been raised following it, suggests that there should be changes in the pensions framework--the law and regulation of pensions--we see that we need seriously to consider those changes rather than to jump precipitately into changes without giving the issues proper consideration. I shall return to that matter later.

Mr. John Greenway : It is worth the House taking note of the fact that we are talking about two separate animals in terms of pension rules and regulations. There are large self-administered schemes, such as the Maxwell scheme, and it is right that, for compensation, people should look first and foremost to those who ran that scheme rather than to the Government. But a large number of occupational pension schemes in Britain are insured schemes and are subject to much more rigorous regulation. The pensioners in those cases are protected by the Policyholders Protection Act 1975. Many people would like reassurance from my right hon. Friend that their pensions are safe because of the protection given to them by that Act.

Mr. Lilley : My hon. Friend, who is a leading expert on pension matters, is absolutely right. It is wrong to suggest that, because of this terrible crime, everybody should be going about in fear and trembling, particularly if they are in the sort of schemes to which my hon. Friend referred.

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The hon. Member for Oldham, West and I agree that the Maxwell pensioners have been the innocent victims of a vile and unprecedented crime. But the Maxwell pensioners and the House do not want the undeliverable promises of the hon. Member for Oldham, West ; they want a considered package of measures that will help to give them peace of mind about their immediate financial future, to secure the assets that will pay their pensions in the years ahead and to ensure that a similar crime can never happen again.

Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe) rose

Mr. Lilley : I will make a little progress before giving way further.

That is why, in my statement yesterday, I announced a package of five measures to deal with the short, medium and long-term issues raised by Maxwell. In the short term, we need to ease the acute pressures while assets are unlocked from the central fund. That is why I announced temporary, emergency funding to help schemes restore and maintain pension payments. That should give pensioners greater peace of mind about their immediate financial future.

Mr. David Madel (Bedfordshire, South-West) rose

Mr. Lilley : I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to make some progress.

In the medium term, we must secure the return of stolen assets and any other funds to help pay pensions in the years ahead. To that end, I have established a special unit in my Department. It will work alongside the pension scheme trustees and others to secure the return of assets and their fair distribution between funds. The unit began work in embryo today.

I must tell the House that even if one was as successful as the hon. Member for Oldham, West believes it would be possible to be, deploying an array of powers that probably do not exist, in securing the return of all the stolen assets that were used as collateral for loans, that would still leave a considerable deficit. We expect the unit to establish a trust fund to mobilise support from those who recognise a moral obligation towards the Maxwell pensioners or who have an interest in maintaining faith in the integrity of the pensions industry.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Lilley : I wish to make some progress, and I am outlining the measures. I will then come to matters that will give an opportunity for hon. Members to raise any points that they wish to put. In addition to the fund, I announced the implementation of regulations under the Social Security Act 1990 which will have the effect of making Maxwell pension schemes ordinary creditors of their employer companies, though I emphasised that the financial benefits likely to flow from that were limited. Parliament did not grant power to the Minister to make regulations that would have made pension funds preferential creditors, rather than ordinary creditors, of the employer companies.

For the long term, we need a framework of law that will prevent such a crime ever recurring and which will provide

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a firm basis for the pensions industry to grow. That is why I announced a wide-ranging review under Professor Goode.

Mr. Alfred Morris rose --

Mr. Lilley : I am anxious, before giving way further, to finish outlining the measures that I announced yesterday.

The basic mistake of the hon. Member for Oldham, West is that he simply does not understand the problem. He fails to recognise that the acute short -term problem is distinct from the longer-term problem of restoring or replacing lost assets.

The Maxwell pension funds have some £230 million of assets safe in their hands, but £100 million of it is in the common investment fund that handles part of their investments, while the remainder is in individual schemes. It has not been possible to agree how much of that £100 million is attributable to each scheme. The trustees have therefore agreed to submit to a court ruling the allocation of that £100 million. But that will take a few months and, until then, that sum is frozen. Our repayable grant is designed simply to cope with the acute short-term pressures faced by the schemes while that situation persists. It will also enable progress to be made in securing the return of some of the stolen assets and obtaining other funds.

The hon. Member for Oldham, West and others ask, "Why £2.5 million?" That figure is based on my official experts' assessment of the position of the various schemes. They are better placed than anyone else to make such an assessment and have also taken into account the possibility that the court ruling may be later rather than sooner. So I am confident that the sum allocated is sufficient for the purpose.

As far as I am aware, the hon. Member for Oldham, West has no direct information about the state of Maxwell pension schemes. Yet his motion calls on the Government to provide "a more realistic sum". It is not clear why the hon. Gentleman feels that he is a good judge of what is realistic. Among the many admirable qualities that one associates with the hon. Gentleman, realism is not high on the list. I assume that he is demanding more on the principle of "never knowingly overbid". Indeed, his bids have been constantly rising. At the beginning of May, he called on the Government to mount a huge rescue operation, which he said that we could afford, costing £156 million. At the end of May, he called on the Government to meet the shortfall, which he then put at between £200 million and £300 million. His motion today calls for us to underwrite all the pension liabilities, which means accepting a current deficiency of £350 million. When the hon. Gentleman is comparing our £2.5 million with a £350 million deficiency, he is comparing apples with pears. The sum that we are making available is purely to deal with acute short-term pressures while frozen funds are being released. The longer-term deficiency can be resolved only by the return of assets and by securing other funds.

Mr. Alfred Morris : Returning to the right hon. Gentleman's proposal of yesterday, which is now at the heart of this debate, was there ever before a scheme for the loan of a lifebelt that was at once cash limited and time limited? What happens if and when the time limit runs out?

Mr. Lilley : I am confident that we have provided enough money, even assuming that the court takes longer

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than it may to reach a judgment. The right hon. Gentleman says that this is a loan. Technically, it is a repayable grant. In other words, we expect the schemes to repay only if they are successful in getting back their assets and are able to do so without detriment to the pensioners. I hope that I have made it clear that there is no question of individual pensioners having to repay any sum of money. That is out of the question.

Mr. Madel : My right hon. Friend referred to short-term measures and peace of mind. I refer to the Maxwell Communication works pension fund and possible difficulties after 1 July. Can he assure me that, because of the Government's short-term relief, individual pensioners will not have to fill in forms or contact people but that from 1 July their 100 per cent. pensions will come through automatically?

Mr. Lilley : I confirm that that is so. An arrangement between those handling the grant that we have made available and the scheme trustees, who will discuss how the money should be allocated, will enable the hardest-hit schemes to resume or maintain payment.

Mr. Meacher : Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, from the beginning, I have consistently asked that the Government should treat the Maxwell pensioners in the same way as the Barlow Clowes speculators? He has still not answered that question. Although it was clear yesterday that he did not know how the £2.5 million was calculated, will he confirm that that sum is to provide protection for the Leeds pensioners and the MCC staff scheme only, and that if the AGB scheme and the MCC works scheme have problems in the next few months, it will not cover them?

Mr. Lilley : The hon. Gentleman is wrong on all counts. It has always been clear that Barlow Clowes is not a precedent. I shall ignore his contemptible description of those investors as "speculators". The £2.5 million grant is not limited to a specific fund, but we believe that it will be sufficient to help the funds maintain and resume pensions over that period.

Mr. George Mudie (Leeds, East) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Lilley : I should like to make a little progress, because there was an opportunity at yesterday's statement for the normal process of question and answer.

I must not be too hard on the hon. Member for Oldham, West. The Opposition motion bears many signs of hasty redrafting. I understand that, prior to my statement, the Opposition were planning to table an uncharacteristically moderate motion calling for short-term help, while pressure was put on the financial institutions to help with the long-term shortfall. But now that it is precisely what we have done, so the hon. Gentleman has had to revert to form. He has gone back over the top and tabled a motion calling for us

"to underwrite the pensions of current and deferred Maxwell pensioners"

in their entirety.

No Government could, in effect, agree to reimburse everyone who has their savings stolen. The whole House knows that. Moreover, if any Government did underwrite all the pension schemes, they would, at a stroke, remove the pressure on banks and others to release stolen assets rapidly or to contribute to the fund that we are

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establishing. The Opposition cannot deny that their motion would mean that not a penny would be contributed to the trust fund, and not a share certificate would be returned voluntarily early. The taxpayer would end up paying the whole of the largest possible bill.

Mr. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) : Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to make a distinction between the general Maxwell pension funds and British International Helicopters Limited? His speech has made quite a play on moral obligations to people in the City and banks, and I wholly agree with him about that. However, does he accept that, as the Government owned British Airways when British Airways sold the helicopter company to Maxwell, they therefore have a moral obligation to those pensioners?

Mr. Lilley : That does not follow, but I hope that those pensioners can reach an accommodation with MGN. Obviously, I shall look closely at that.

Another question that was raised yesterday, which may lie behind many of the points that hon. Members wish to raise today, is why the Government are not offering a clear guarantee that all pensions will be paid in full--100 per cent.--in the coming months. We certainly intend to ease the position of pension schemes so that they can restore or maintain payment of pensions while frozen funds are being released, but we cannot offer an open-ended guarantee. Moreover, some schemes have resources just sufficient to continue paying part, but not all, of the pension. It will then be a matter of negotiation how much the scheme pays and how much is met by our grant. Clearly, it would be impossible to negotiate while offering to guarantee a 100 per cent. payment, but I am confident that the position of all Maxwell pensioners over the next few months is substantially safeguarded and vastly more secure than it would be without this scheme.

Mrs. Helen Jackson (Sheffield, Hillsborough) : I speak on behalf of the AGB pensioner scheme. Is the Secretary of State aware how difficult it is for pensioners on low incomes to plan anything months ahead ? Even on the basis of what the Secretary of State has said, such pensioners cannot plan this year's summer holiday or what to do for Christmas. On those pensioners' behalf, I want to ask the Secretary of State whether he will ensure that they are not left waiting until the last day of the last week of the last month before being told whether they will receive their next payment. Such insecurity is absolutely intolerable.

Mr. Lilley : I recognise that one of the legacies of Mr. Maxwell is the element of insecurity felt about the longer term. All I have been able to do is to try to ease the pressures, anguish and insecurity of the pensioners over this acute short-term period when schemes' funds cannot be allocated to pensioners as those funds are frozen. I do not pretend that we have relieved the longer-term anguish, which is a legacy of Mr. Maxwell.

The hon. Member for Oldham, West is keen to blame the Government for the pensioners' problems. As I said yesterday, crime is caused by criminals and in this case we know who the central villain was. It is nonsense to argue that, because a crime happened, the Government are to blame and so are liable to compensate the victims.

When a burglary occurs, we do not say that the police and property laws for which the Government are responsible have failed, so the Government are to blame

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and must reimburse every householder. Of course, we must keep under constant review our systems for preventing fraud and theft from pension schemes. If we find sectors where improvements are needed, that cannot be held as an admission of responsibility for crimes that have not been prevented.

Mr. Rupert Allason : I have followed everything said by my right hon. Friend and agreed with him until he apparently said that there was only one person responsible for the crime and we could all blame Mr. Maxwell. In my view, all the directors of Mirror Group Newspapers and everyone connected with Maxwell who have had their fingers in the till for so long should have resigned months ago. Does not my right hon. Friend agree?

Mr. Lilley : I said that the central villain was Robert Maxwell. I am not making any judgment on whether any other people were involved. That is a matter for the Serious Fraud Office to establish.

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : Will the Secretary of State answer fully the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce)? The Secretary of State is basically saying that in 1986 the Government handed over British Airways' helicopter division to the central criminal figure in the scandal. As he said yesterday in response to the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), the Government knew that Maxwell had been reported as unfit to run a public company. Does not the Secretary of State think that, at the very least, the Government have a moral obligation to those British International Helicopter pensioners?

Mr. Lilley : Many of the companies in the Maxwell group were bought from other people. I do not believe that many people would think that previous owners have a moral responsibility for what the subsequent owners do. The helicopter division was bought from British Airways, and British Airways was not required to seek Government approval for that sale.

To return to the issue of blame, the hon. Member for Oldham, West asked specifically about the report of the Securities and Investments Board, and I promised to respond. It is up to the SIB to state whether it intends to publish the report. I understand--although I only have it second hand--that the SIB intends to publish its findings.

The review of pension law was a major aspect of yesterday's announcement. The hon. Member for Oldham, West said that 12 months was too long a period for the review of pensions. I agree that the need is urgent. The House will recall that I have not only asked Professor Goode to report within 12 months, but said that if his committee finds changes that should be implemented urgently, it should report to me sooner. The committee needs time to invite evidence from all interested parties, and it will hold a number of public hearings.

I was interested to note that Sue Ward, a leading pensions expert, said on the Radio 4 PM programme yesterday that the review team would have to work hard to complete its task in 12 months. She said : "Twelve months was certainly not too long a time."

The Opposition motion states that

"because of the deep flaws in the current supervisory system" the House

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"considers that the new committee to review pension law should not have to take a year to complete its work."

I think that most people would consider that, before changes are made to rectify deep flaws, there should be deep reflection. In his article in The Times, the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) states that he wants the review to consider reforms to make pension contributors holders of their own contributions. We have given the review deliberately wide terms of reference to look at the status and ownership of occupational pension funds. We have not ruled out consideration of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion--far from it. I believe that the hon. Gentleman's ideas are sufficiently attractive to warrant others considering them if the review team feels that they are not relevant to its work.

Mr. Win Griffiths : This debate is principally centred on the Maxwell pension scandal, but the Secretary of State should be aware that pension funds are in deep difficulties. The Oakwood pension plan affects my constituents. It appears that a director of the employers took the major decisions related to the pension plan against the advice of the actuary. Will Professor Goode consider such aspects, as well as considering what went wrong with the Maxwell pension scheme?

Mr. Lilley : Very much so--I am sure that Professor Goode will want to look at any evidence of deficiencies and problems. It would be quite right to do so if we are to change the law and regulate to ensure that such crimes do not recur. I shall draw the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman to Professor Goode's attention.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Is the Secretary of State aware that, with the help of the Union of Democratic Mineworkers, British Coal officials have just awarded themselves another pension holiday? What does he think about that in view of the scandal that has come to light? When I met some of the Daily Mirror pensioners yesterday, I bumped into some Daily Express pensioners. They told me that a few years ago the Daily Express changed its pension fund and as a result they do not receive year-on-year increases. The Daily Express officials fiddled the fund and created a new one for the current employees, but those who worked for the paper for 30 or 40 years will not get a penny piece. The Maxwell scandal has highlighted the fact that, across the board, pension managers and organisations such as British Coal and the Daily Express have been fiddling funds and depriving pensioners of their proper entitlement. What is the Secretary of State's view on that?

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