| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) effectively criticised the Labour party's attitude to the legislation. I hope that that criticism will be taken to heart by Labour Members if the House divides, although I hope that it will not. The hon. and learned Gentleman also said that the legislation makes serious incursions into the rights of
Column 405
citizens. I had difficulty following him on that point because, bearing in mind the fact that the internment power is not operational, no provision in the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991 in any way conflicts with the European convention on human rights. Therefore, that Act is not a serious incursion into the rights of citizens. Comments could be made about the detention powers in the prevention of terrorism Act, but that is another matter.My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) welcomed the Secretary of State's announcement about the introduction of an independent commissioner for police centres. I also welcomed his comment about remand prisoners. I am glad to know that there will be target time for bringing people forward for arraignment to reduce remand periods. I understand the reluctance immediately to adopt a statutory scheme, such as the one in Scotland, but I hope that, when the informal targets have been reached, we can move to a statutory scheme, because failure to achieve sensible progression could lead to a deterioration of the position. Such a statutory scheme would ensure that there is no subsequent backsliding.
Much of the debate has turned on Lord Colville's report. Like other hon. Members, I congratulate Lord Colville not only on that report but on his series of reports over the years. They are well worth reading. My one regret about them is that they do not seem to receive the circulation and study that they deserve. People who are worried about the legislation will find that Lord Colville checks matters such as applications for extension of periods in detention and looks extensively at individual cases. That is a considerable reassurance. I should like to deal with a few other issues in Lord Colville's report. He says that the current difficulties about definition arise from the difference in statistics emanating from the Lord Chancellor's office and the Northern Ireland Office and suggests that that conflict should be resolved. Perhaps the Minister will outline the arguments on definition and say why we cannot have reliable statistics. Such statistics are important. How else can one measure the effectiveness of legislation?
In the previous Parliament, I tabled a question about how often those convicted of murder were actual trigger men for people who placed bombs. I was informed that it was not possible to answer that, because statistics were not available. That is quite incredible. Without such statistics, how can we measure the effectiveness of the security forces and the legal system?
I regret to say that I have the impression that the number of trigger men who are convicted of murder in any one year could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. If figures were available, they would demonstrate that the system is not as effective as it should be. I fear that such figures as are available give a somewhat false impression.
On the fifth page of the report, Lord Colville discusses the legislation that is designed to deal with terrorist funds. He refers to the position on the Channel islands and on the Isle of Man. He notes that power is available to extend part of the emergency provisions legislation to the islands. He then states :
"Whatever may be said about the efficacy of section 13 and schedule 4 to the Prevention of Terrorism Act, it must be of direct concern that the fullest possible range of facilities
Column 406
should be to hand for the authorities in those jurisdictions to give such assistance as they can to expose terrorists' off-shore accounts and money laundering."Two issues arise from that passage. The Prevention of Terrorism Act provisions that operate on some of the islands are much narrower than those in the emergency provisions legislation. Part VII of the EPA deals with the confiscation of the proceeds of terrorists' illegal activities. I think that it is fair to say that the PTA provisions on terrorist funds--the Minister's comments will be interesting--are virtually useless. The EPA provisions may be useful, but the PTA provisions are not. That underlines the need for uniform legislation throughout the British Isles, but excluding the Republic of Ireland. In the same passage of his report, Lord Colville refers to protection payments and tax. Unfortunately, his comment is wrong. I have personal experience of persons who reported that they were being intimidated by terrorists and were making protection payments. They found that, as a result of taking up the invitation of the previous Secretary of State to report these matters, they were raided by the Inland Revenue, and found themselves in a much worse situation. Lord Colville states that he is not aware of such cases, but unfortunately they exist. His comment is no response to the position of those citizens, who behaved, perhaps at a later date, in a responsible manner.
That brings me to the section of Lord Colville's report which refers to cases of irresponsibility on the part of the television medium. At paragraphs 4.2.9. and 10 he refers to a case that went to court in 1991. The defendant was a man called Gilgunn. A complaint was made by the detainee's mother on his behalf to the Anglo-Irish secretariat alleging serious threats made to him by the police. In the witness box, however, the detainee made no attempt to substantiate the allegation. The judge in the case said : "I am satisfied that there is no truth in any suggestion that any threat of this kind was made at any time. I have said previously that Gilgunn was an intelligent young man. He is also, I am satisfied, a manipulative young man."
Lord Colville continues :
"In the recent Channel 4 documentary programme Behind the Walls of Castlereagh', Mr. Gilgunn repeated these allegations. I heard no reference to the comments made by the judge."
The inescapable conclusion is that Gilgunn manufactured the complaint in an attempt to discredit the RUC and that Channel 4 was too gullible. It is not the only time that there has been such gullibility. I recall the notorious "Despatches" programme which alleged the existence of a so-called inner circle in which it was said that police and loyalist terrorists plotted assassinations. What was produced on screen in the way of evidence was singularly unconvincing.
After the programme, in an attempt to bolster their case, those involved in the production of "Despatches" supplied the RUC with names, some of whom they said were members of the inner circle. Some of the names were not even in the RUC, although those involved with "Despatches" said they were. I believe that the RUC is satisfied that none of those named was so involved.
If the programme makers had consulted any reputable journalist operating in Ulster, they would have been told that the allegations were fantasies. Indeed, some journalists working in Northern Ireland are now reluctant to have any dealings with Channel 4 programmers as a result. I understand that the programme cost about £250,000, which is something worth considering.
Column 407
I suspect that the programme involved more than gullibility. The person who made it was no wide-eyed innocent coming to Ulster for the first time. He was a native of Ulster who in his student days was associated with extreme Republican politics.If the police succeed in their attempts to compel "Despatches" to disclose its sources, I think that it will be found that essentially that programme had one source--a person who is known to have a Republican political background. We shall then see that the programme was tainted from the outset. The sinister aspect of the programme was that, in addition to smearing the police, it effectively identified members of a mythical inner circle and so targeted individuals in the Loyalist community. That is a dangerous consequence of
irresponsibility.
That naturally leads one to the programme earlier this week and the case of Mr. Nelson. Like other hon. Members, I shall suspend judgment on that until we know more of the facts. It illustrates what we do know from what has come out through the courts and elsewhere and underlines the danger of competing organisations in intelligence matters and the danger of not having proper co-ordination and effective control.
I am not drawing any conclusions about what may have happened. It is clear from what we know that Mr. Nelson was or may have been a double agent. It is unwise to conclude that all his actions were controlled by his intelligence handlers, but there is sufficient in the public domain of a reputable nature to show that there is cause for concern.
I appreciate the difficulties of inquiries into intelligence matters, but I should like to be reassured that there will be an investigation into those matters and that as much as possible will be put into the public domain so that we can see where the truth lies. However, as I say, I caution against taking what emanates from Mr. Nelson as gospel because it comes from a tainted source.
The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) said that the "Panorama" programme, which I am afraid that I did not see, alleged collusion in the importation of arms. If I remember correctly, all the arms that were being imported for the UDA on the occasion to which the hon. Gentleman refers were seized and the majority of the arms destined for the UVF were also found.
Mr. Mallon : Those arms were imported by a group known then as Ulster Resistance. Some of them were handed over to the UDA and some to the UVF. A consignment was seized by the police outside Tandragee and the rest have not been recovered. It has been established that the gun which killed the people in the betting shop was imported in that shipment.
Mr. Trimble : I am aware of that fact. The facts are, as I stated, that all the weapons in that shipment going to the UDA were found. The majority of those going to the UVF were found. It is said that there were some going to another organisation which have not been found. If, as the hon. Gentleman says, the gun used in that terrible attack was found, it could well be from the UVF contingent.
Column 408
The significance of the situation is that Mr. Nelson was said to be working for the UDA, and all the weapons destined for the UDA were seized by the RUC. I think that there is no dispute about that. The hon. Gentleman referred critically to a long passage in Lord Colville's report about complaints against the police. At this stage, I shall simply urge hon. Members to read everything that Lord Colville says on that point. He makes a number of cogent points analysing the way in which the system is not working effectively. There is a serious problem here, because of the way in which the civil legal system is being used to give a false impression. The actions of the authorities on that point-- particularly the Northern Ireland Office--are reprehensible. It is wrong to settle those cases. They should be contested unless it is clear that there is wrongdoing by the soldiers and policemen concerned, in which case, by all means settle. But, as I understand it, Lord Colville points out that cases are being settled because the material to defend them is not available. His suggestions are directed towards ensuring that evidence is preserved.It is wrong to criticise the suggestion that detailed records should be kept when they are kept, for example, on interrogation and patrolling. Anyone who reads the passage concerned will note that Lord Colville makes some cogent points, which probably provide uncomfortable reading for the Northern Ireland Office : they require a positive response and certain changes.
The current IRA bombing campaign has, of course, caused great concern, which has increased significantly over the past year. My own constituency has suffered the effects of three large bombs. One, containing 1,200 lb of home-made explosive, was defused at Banbridge ; another, containing over 2,000 lb of HME, destroyed Craigavon RUC station, wrecked a nearby Catholic school and damaged a Catholic church, various community services and hundreds of houses. The third, containing over 1,000 lb of HME, tore the commercial heart out of Lurgan, a town in my constituency.
Following the bombing of the Baltic exchange in London, people in England may have some idea of the effect of such large bombs. The bomb in the City, however, affected modern buildings, and most of the damage--although it was bad at the time--was essentially superficial : the structures remained intact, and the damage can be repaired relatively easily. In Lurgan, two entire blocks with over a dozen different buildings suffered severe structural damage. I do not want to labour the point, but I think it fair to say that immediately afterwards--and, indeed, today--the town resembled scenes from the blitz.
The bombs did not come from nowhere. A large home-made explosive bomb takes time to prepare : fertiliser must be ground up, other ingredients must be bought and mixed in, and the thing must eventually be assembled and primed. Grinding up the fertiliser for a large bomb requires several days' work, which must be done in places where there is apparent freedom from detection or interruption. I believe that the bombs that went off in my constituency were made up in the IRA safe havens along the south Armagh and Monaghan frontier ; I am not sure which side was involved, but that was where they originated. They were not, however, moved up along the length of Armagh, where they might have been intercepted by vehicle checkpoints. It is believed that they were taken
Column 409
up through the salient in the Irish Republic created by County Monaghan, crossed the frontier into east Tyrone and then moved into north Armagh.The police in my constituency may sometimes suspect that a bomb is in transit. They then face the impossible task of covering all the likely targets. That, of course, cannot be done ; judgment must be exercised, and the defence of some targets prioritised. It is then child's play for the IRA to see which way the police have gone, and to go the other way and hit a target that has apparently been left open. Many believe that that happened in Lurgan. After the event, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney) mentioned a last-minute reconnaissance car going through the town, and that lends support to their belief.
If that happened, however, I think that it would be wrong to blame the police. As I have said, theirs is an impossible task. The question that should be asked is, why are they given that task? The obvious response must be to go to the source of the bombs, and cut off the movement at that point rather than trying to catch the bombers when they come in. That must focus attention on the frontier areas--not to keep people happy, but to keep people alive and our towns intact.
At this point, we come up against what I regard as a fundamental flaw in the Government's policy : a flaw that has vitiated policy for over a decade, and will continue in the future to render of no avail the sacrifices of soldiers and policemen. The Government believe that they must at all costs have the co-operation of the Irish Republic on the frontier. They have some co-operation, but the truth is that they do not and will not have effective co-operation ; effective, in the words of the previous Secretary of State--the right hon. Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke), who I am glad to see is present--to end the use of the border as a resource for terrorism.
I think that a little quiet reflection on the nature and objectives of the Catholic Irish nation will make it clear why that degree of co-operation will not be forthcoming. The necessary job can be done by our British security forces. It will be done when the necessary reassessment of policy has been made. The legislation that we are renewing contains almost all the legal tools necessary for the job. All we need is for Ministers to have the wit and the will to use them well.
10.54 pm
Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South) : I hope not to make the same kind of personal intervention in this debate as I made in the last debate of the previous Session, when the sitting had to be suspended because I was taken ill and had to be examined.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Jeremy Hanley) : The hon. Gentleman is worth waiting for
Mr. Marshall : I am always worth waiting for : that is why the House has been waiting so long.
I thank the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) for being brief. I know that he wanted to make more points if time had been available. I thank him for leaving enough time for the Minister of State and me to reply to the debate.
Column 410
I should like to reinforce one of the points that the hon. Member for Upper Bann made. He claimed that Lord Colville's conclusion in paragraph 2.1.5 is incorrect. The paragraph refers to anecdotal stories of employers co-operating with the authorities, who would then attract the attention of the Inland Revenue and Customs. Lord Colville says, quite clearly and categorically, that there is no factual basis for that fear. What the hon. Member told the House a few moments ago is completely contrary to that conclusion, so I should like to hear the Government's view.It feels as though we started the debate a long time ago. I regret that the Secretary of State is not here--that is not a criticism--as I wanted to thank him for taking us so clearly and succinctly through the order, and for the overview he gave of the security situation in the Province in the past 12 months.
If I had been Secretary of State, I would have felt some trepidation, because this must be the first occasion in recent years when the Secretary of State had his two immediate predecessors hovering in the shadows. I should like to think that they were here to give him moral support. I am sure they were, but perhaps they were here also to ensure that he stayed on the straight and narrow and trod the path that was so well laid out by them.
It was a delight to me, and I am sure to the House, to see the right hon. Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke) acting as Parliamentary Private Secretary, conveying information from the Box to the Minister of State. I hope that he does not intend again to seek a ministerial career, which he gave up recently.
The Secretary of State went through the customary practice of congratulating Lord Colville on the review. Perhaps I may enter a counter- view. There is a growing view in the Province--clearly not a majority view- -that perhaps Lord Colville has passed his sell-by-date. It is felt that, regrettably, he has not introduced the reforms that were suggested in previous reports. We certainly regret that he feels that there is no point in advocating changes that the Government have already rejected. That relates to a point made by a number of hon. Members--in previous years, Lord Colville has argued for televised recordings which were refused by the Government, and it is unfortunate that he has not reiterated that suggestion.
We welcome the Secretary of State's words about the close and growing co- operation between the security forces north and south of the border. The co -operation shows an increasing willingness and desire by the United Kingdom and the Irish Governments to ensure that terrorism does not succeed, and co -operation will increase in order to bring about that state of affairs.
We also welcome the time limits set for prisoners on remand. I realise that it is on a non-statutory basis at the moment, and although we welcome it, it should not be too long before the system is placed on a statutory basis.
We agree that it is essential to pursue social and economic policies to enhance the lives of all the citizens of Northern Ireland. I only wish that the Secretary of State had the necessary freedom to introduce policies that would increase the living standard for the people there, but I strongly suspect that the curbs on public expenditure that are likely to take place in Great Britain will also impinge on citizens in Northern Ireland. Instead of an improvement in living standards, there will be a standstill.
We share the Secretary of State's view that there is a need for a political settlement in the Province. Despite all
Column 411
that has been said, until there is a clear political settlement which is seen to be fair to all the citizens of the Province, the good will shown by the Governments and politicians from both sides of the divide will come to naught. There must be a political settlement which is seen to be fair and non-discriminatory and one in which all citizens of the Province feel that they are equal in a social, political and economic sense.Mr. Barry Porter (Wirral, South) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Marshall : No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman came in at 10.45 pm and has missed a great deal of the debate.
Mr. Porter : I came in at 10.40 pm.
Mr. Marshall : I apologise. I tend to exaggerate occasionally, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that it would be unfair to give way to him, as that would take time from the Minister. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) gave us his usual views, and I am sure that the House was grateful to receive them yet again. He referred to a certain gentleman, whose name I forget, not knowing what was going on behind closed doors at Stormont. He tantalisingly hinted that he knew, and I thought for one moment that he was going to share his knowledge with the House so that not only he and Ministers but all hon. Members could share his knowledge of any progress being made in Stormont. I was extremely disappointed that the hon. Member for Antrim, North, who is usually loquacious, did not go on to give us that information.
I do not often agree with the hon. Member for Antrim, North, although we disagree in a gentlemanly way. However, I agree with two points that he made, and I certainly agreed when he said that it should be made clear to the terrorists and their apologists that they cannot bomb and murder their way to the conference table. He certainly has the Labour party's support on that, and I would guess that he has that of every right hon. and hon. Member.
I also agree with the hon. Member for Antrim, North--he shares the view of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis)--that there should be a visual record at the Castlereagh holding centre to assist the police and to help to refute allegations made against them. That alone will make it easier for the authorities to refute allegations and prevent people of violence from being able to use those allegations to undermine public confidence in the security forces.
When the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone talks about the need to curb racketeering and close off funds to terrorists, he has the House's full support. In speaking of the need for police primacy, not just in theory but in practice, he again echoes a view repeatedly expressed by the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) has occasionally been unfairly criticised for persisting in putting that view.
The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) said that Lord Colville had drawn attention to complaints about ill treatment at holding centres. He then said that the disquiet arising from those matters needed to be eliminated. If that is the hon. Gentleman's view, why did
Column 412
not he suggest the next logical step : to introduce recording equipment into those centres so that there would be a visual record to help in refuting most of those allegations? I was a little disappointed that the hon. Gentleman picked up a point made by Lord Colville but did not then take the next logical step.In a succinct--perhaps a euphemism for brief--speech, the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) asserted that the reintroduction of internment would be counter-productive. We agree that it would be a recruiting sergeant for terrorists in the Province. He then asked why the Labour party was voting against the renewal order this evening. There is not time adequately to answer that question now-- [Laughter.] If those hon. Members who laugh at that assertion read in detail the Second Reading debate last year, they will see all the constructive criticisms that we made about the legislation in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading. They will then realise that we had sound and valid reasons for opposing it, and the necessary changes have still not been made to it.
I shall name but two of our objections to the legislation : first, the question of internment remaining on the statute book ; and, secondly, the power to seize documents--a matter that is even dearer to the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East. If the hon. and learned Gentleman reads those debates--
Mr. Menzies Campbell : I shall make a point of doing so.
Mr. Marshall : I am delighted that the hon. and learned Gentleman will find time. I just wish that Conservative Members would avail themselves of the same opportunity.
In the few minutes remaining to me, I shall make one general political point. The debate has shown that, although we may hold differing views on the efficacy of the emergency provisions legislation, all Members and parties are united in our determination that terrorism will not succeed. Political change must be brought about through the democratic process, not by the power to bomb and murder. No one can bomb their way to the conference table. We all recognise the difficult and dangerous work undertaken by the RUC and the security forces. On behalf of my party, I pay tribute to them for their bravery and steadfastness. We must never forget that, in the battle against terrorism, the security forces are there to protect citizens' lives, not to place them at risk ; to protect individual freedom, not to undermine it ; and to uphold the rule of law, not subvert it. There is no doubt in my mind that in most instances those high ideals are upheld, but when they are not, the consequences provide succour to the terrorists and make the job of the security forces that much more difficult. It is in all our interests that, in the defeat of terrorism, no corners are cut and no laws deliberately broken.
Finally, let me make our position absolutely clear : we intend to force a Division on the order, and I urge support from all quarters of the House.
11.11 pm
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Mates) : I warmly endorse the penultimate words of the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall). We entirely agree with everything that he said about the necessity for the forces to act honestly within the law and
Column 413
evenhandedly. I congratulate him on, for the large part, a moderate and sensible speech. I hope that my saying so from here will not damage his credibility, but we find little to quarrel with in most of what he said. The hon. Gentleman has a problem and he was honest enough to say that he did not intend to explain to us tonight what it was. That is why he is urging his colleagues not to support the order.The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) started down that road, using a slightly different tack from usual--but then he has been known to change his fig leaf from time to time. Although he produced a different fig leaf this time, that is to say that he could not support the order because inherent in it remained powers of detainment--not an argument that has been in the forefront of his reasons for opposing the measure in the past--the order does nothing of the sort. The power of detention, or internment as he called it, is not dealt with in the order and could not be brought into force without our coming to the House for an affirmative order. Therefore, that reason is even less valid than usual. In looking to what I hope is mainstream thinking that would command support in both Houses, one can do no better than quote the words of Lord Mason in the last debate in the other place. He spoke for many people when he said :
"Unfortunately the circumstances are such within the United Kingdom that some liberty must be sacrificed in the defence of liberty, insidious though that may be. It is the price that must be paid in defence of our democracy Nothing gives the IRA more joy and some encouragement than to see a divided House, and especially the image created by some within Parliament of seeming to be too protective of the terrorists and their political allies, rather than wishing their destruction."--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 13 February 1989 ; Vol. 504, c. 33-4.]
That used to be the words of the mainstream Labour party and I long for the day when it is so again.
Tonight's debate has enabled the House to examine once again the requirement for, and the scope of, the emergency powers now in effect in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Winnick : I listened with care to the Minister's quotation from Lord Mason, who has a point of view, even if it is not one shared by us. The Minister gave the impression, at least, that the Opposition display some softness towards terrorism. He will know of our loathing and hatred for terrorists on both sides of the sectarian divide, not least for the Provisional IRA, whose members have for 22 years committed the worst type of crime, as I said in my intervention in the speech by the Secretary of State. Will the Minister therefore reconsider and recognise that, although there are genuine differences of opinion, there is no difference of opinion in the House when it comes to condemning the crimes and atrocities that have been perpetrated, some of which have occurred in the past six months?
Mr. Mates : I acknowledge unreservedly that that is the view of the hon. Gentleman, and I have never questioned that. But some Labour Members entertain these people--they have brought them over to the mainland and into this House. For as long as that happens, it will be perfectly reasonable to point it out.
I welcome the scrutiny that we have given the measure tonight. It is entirely right, in a parliamentary democracy such as ours, that there should be full and open debate on the need for exceptional powers such as these. In that
Column 414
regard, I must say that I do not share the view expressed by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) that our annual debates are no more than a ritual. It is because we examine the legislation every year, because changes are made in the light of experience and because we continue to draw on the independent advice of people such as Lord Colville that they are not a ritual but a real event, and I am glad that they take place--inconvenient though that may be for some of us.The Government's aim is a full return to normality and the eradication of terrorism in Northern Ireland. That is our first priority. Terrorist organisations are criminal conspiracies, representing perhaps the most dangerous threat to the fabric of any democratic society. We are determined that they will not prevail. Violence in pursuit of political ends is neither acceptable nor inevitable and for so long as it continues terrorism will be met with a firm, resolute and proactive response.
Within that basic approach, however, it is open to the Government--indeed, it is incumbent on them--to introduce specific measures and powers, where the ordinary law is insufficient, to enable the police and Army to deal with the particular difficulties that they encounter in protecting society from terrorism and apprehending the perpetrators of it. The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991 and the relevant sections of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 also being renewed by the order do precisely that.
We have had a wide-ranging and interesting debate, and I shall be dealing with some of the points raised by hon. Members in such time as I have. Before I do so, however, it may be worth illustrating the practical application of the emergency provisions Act measures by examining one particular case--the refurbishment of a number of permanent vehicle checkpoints. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) made some valuable points based on his considerable experience of these matters, and I promise him that I will consider them carefully.
The permanent vehicle checkpoints in border areas provide protection for communities particularly vulnerable to terrorist attack. They deter terrorists by controlling cross-border traffic. They block key escape routes used by terrorists and they provide bases for security force patrols working in dangerous areas. Following a thorough review, 10 permanent vehicle checkpoints in Fermanagh and Londonderry are being refurbished and improved. In some cases, they are being moved a short distance to more operationally suitable sites. The upgrading programme, which began in south -east Fermanagh, is designed to reduce inconvenience to local communities by improving traffic handling arrangements as well as to provide better protection and improved accommodation for security force personnel at the bases.
The entire exercise provides an example of how powers provided for in one part of the Act can be used to ameliorate the impact of the operation of others of its powers. We recognise the disruption caused to local people by the necessary use at the checkpoints of the powers to stop and question people for so long as is necessary to ascertain their identities, movements and any knowledge that they may have of recent terrorist incidents, and to search vehicles under sections 23 and 26 of the Act.
Part of the refurbishment programme is intended to reduce or remove the lengthy traffic queues that can build
Column 415
up by redesigning or resiting the PVCPs, providing space for controlled bypasses and lay-bys where inquiries and searches can, where necessary, be made without delaying other traffic. The necessary land is, in a number of cases, being acquired using powers contained in section 24 of the Act, and compensation is being paid under section 63. Work is still in progress, but I understand that the new arrangements for the finished checkpoints have proved much more acceptable to local communities. The repositioning of some checkpoints may also allow the reopening of one or two minor roads in the south Fermanagh area. The Irish security forces have been providing necessary security for the operation on their side of the border and their assistance has been greatly appreciated. I turn now briefly, I am afraid, to some of the points that have been made during the debate. Reference has been made to videotape recording. Of course we acknowledge that there is genuine concern about the interview procedures. I know that that is a difficult subject and I have made it my business early in my new incarnation to go to Castlereagh. I have been right round the course that a detained person goes round and I have seen every aspect that that person goes through. I have also seen the controls and checks intended to ensure that there is no ill-treatment.There is provision for medical inspection as soon as the detained person arrives and for a log to be opened to show where that person is at every moment of the day and night. Every time the person is taken out of the cell, even to go to the lavatory, and is returned to it, that is recorded. Whenever that person is taken to an interview room, that is recorded by someone who is not involved in the investigation. That is an imporant safeguard. The people who carry out that part of the handling of a detained person are uniformed members of the RUC. All the time that someone is being interviewed in an interview room, that is monitored by a uniformed police inspector who is not part of the investigation team.
The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) wanted to know whether we could go even further than that and provide a record. We have obviously considered that. However, there are difficulties which do not simply relate to the difficulties in obtaining a confession. It is important that people should understand that.
There are difficulties in that some people who belong to terrorist organisations will have their lives and the lives of their families put at risk if they so much as talk to the authorities. That is why many of them adopt a policy of silence to start with. That is visible to the inspecting officer and to the inspector who is present. If a recording of the tape became available even showing that the detained person had opened his or her mouth--never mind whether to make a confession--perhaps just to ask the time of day, there are fears that that person, his friends or relations could be in danger from the terrorists who would suspect
Mr. Rupert Allason rose--
Mr. McNamara rose--
Mr. Mates : I am sorry, I will not give way as I have only a very short time left. I am trying to reply to the debate.
Column 416
That is why the Chief Constable and those who advise us have concluded that it would not be right to move further at the moment. However, I happily give the undertaking that we will continue to monitor the situation. We do not want those who are detained to be able to sue us afterwards. That makes no sense. However, so long as there are real dangers and when life might be at stake, we must take the cautious view.The hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull, North and for Antrim, North referred to out-of-court settlements. Lord Colville makes it clear that many of those actions cover a portmanteau of complaints and that in those that include an allegation of assault that claim is very often not substantiated or pursued. The police authority is now analysing civil action settlements to determine in how many cases the settlement relates to a claim of assault and in how many to some procedural error. The results of that study will be made public. The House may be interested in one example cited by Lord Colville. The plaintiff alleged false imprisonment, wrongful arrest and assault. The police contested the claim, and the assault claim was not accepted by the court, but compensation was paid for overholding-- that is, for holding him for too long. The plaintiff was delayed for 45 minutes while a doctor was called to make a final medical examination. Those are some of the problems that we are up against in settling out of court, and they have nothing to do with ill-treatment.
The hon. Member for Antrim, North complained about Crumlin Road and delays on remand. I hope that he is as pleased as others have been with the announcement that we really are seeking to tackle the problem by administrative means, and I repeat my right hon. and learned Friend's assurance that we will not be satisfied with a year's limit if we can bring it down further.
As to the conditions in Crumlin Road, I have visited that prison myself, although I did so voluntarily and not as a guest of the governor. There are some difficult accommodation problems there. It is an old Victorian prison in the middle of the city. The governor, the staff and the prison department in the Northern Ireland Office are making herculean attempts to put that right, but it is inevitably a fairly slow process.
Mention was made by several hon. Members of the independent assessor. His terms of reference will be published when they reach fruition. Of course, that information will be given to the House at the appropriate time.
Legislation, no matter how well-focused and appropriate, is effective only when it is properly enforced. I am pleased to report to the House that the vigorous and impartial actions of the police and Army are bringing real results. The level of security force activity is very high. In addition to the numerous patrols mounted by the RUC, the Army currently undertakes 250 to 300 patrols per day, day in and day out in the Province. For that it should be thanked. That very high figure should be put into perspective when the inevitable but fortunately rare occurrence of improper action by the security forces takes so much of the headlines. It is in the context of 300 or more patrols of young professional soldiers and police going out in fear of their lives day after day that we get the odd regrettable incident. But there is one way in which that can be stopped at once, and that is for the terrorists to stop their deadly business. There would then be no further need for Army or police patrols.
Column 417
Last year, more than twice as many people were charged with murder as in 1990. Adjustments to force structures and deployments to meet the evolving threat continue to be made where appropriate. Reference has already been made to the establishment of the new post of Deputy Chief Constable (Operations), and I note the wide welcome that that has received in the House. Recruitment of the additional 441 police officers, which was announced last November, continues. For example, an additional 104 regular officers and 40 reservists were recruited during May alone.Although I welcome the appointment of the Deputy Chief Constable, I do not want anybody to think that there will be an immediate panacea as a result of it. We are hoping, as the terrorists' tactics evolve and change, to evolve and change the structures whereby the control and co-ordination of all the security forces takes place. Having a senior policeman clearly in charge of all operations of the police and the Army is, I hope everyone will agree, a step in the right direction.
Our commitment to the defeat of terrorism is undiminished. I hope that that message is getting through to the terrorists on both sides. There are some small signs that it is. Whether it is or not, the security forces will continue their relentless pursuit of the criminals. The emergency powers continued by this order are vital to enabling them to carry out that task. In that context, we would all agree with the valuable contribution by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell). It is on that basis and not with any pleasure, of which some accused us, but with reluctance and determination that I commend the order to the House.
Question put :--
The House divided : Ayes 281, Noes 170.
Division No. 30] [11.29 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Ancram, Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Aspinwall, Jack
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Beith, A. J.
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowden, Andrew
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chaplin, Mrs Judith
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
| Next Section
| Home Page |