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House of Commons
Monday 15 June 1992
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
NATIONAL HERITAGE
Artistic Heritage
1. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what measures he is taking to enable the United Kingdom to retain outstanding items of the nation's artistic heritage.
The Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. David Mellor) : As this is the first Question Time for the new Department, I hope that you will not object, Madam Speaker, if I preface my answer by saying that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State and I have been delighted by the positive response to the creation of the Department. It has been welcomed on both sides of the House. I wish to make it clear from the outset that we welcome advice and assistance from all hon. Members. Views will be listened to on their merits. I hope that there will be the very minimum of partisan argument ; certainly, I intend to proceed on that basis.
The Waverley system of export controls is the foundation of our policy. Significant grants are made to the national heritage memorial fund. Several important tax concessions are available to assist the retention of pre- eminent works. I have, however, decided against listing certain works of art as a means of prohibiting the export of key heritage items.
Mr. Carrington : My right hon. and learned Friend will be aware of the considerable concern about the inability, because of the high prices that now obtain, of our major public collections to purchase works of art that people attempt to sell on the open market. Will he examine closely the level of purchase grants of our national institutions and the rules that govern the acceptance of works of art in lieu of tax, which are frequently very restrictive and applicable only in certain clearly specified circumstances?
Mr. Mellor : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's question. Purchase grants have been frozen since 1985, largely because the substantial additional resources that have been made available to museums and galleries have gone into refurbishment and towards increasing the sums available for running costs. I note what my hon. Friend said, however. He knows that we have considerably increased the sums of money available to the national heritage memorial fund, which was of great assistance recently in the purchase of the Holbein portrait for the national gallery. I certainly intend to look at the various
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ways in which we can ensure that pre-eminent works are not lost to the nation. I hope to have something further to say about that in due course.Mr. Sheldon : I look forward to hearing what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has to say in due course, but is he aware that many great works of art were obtained in the last century when, by comparison with other countries, this country was far more wealthy than it is ever likely to be again? It is important that we do not lose important works of art. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman is opposed to listing, we shall have to produce far more substantial sums of money than have been thought of so far. How does he intend to deal with that?
Mr. Mellor : In recent years, we have managed to retain just over half the items that were listed under the Waverley rules. I accept that that is not good enough. For instance, I should like the acceptance-in-lieu scheme to be more widely used. We have a provision of £10 million a year. Although the amount was doubled, last year it was only £3.8 million. The right hon. Gentleman will know that the Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art made the point about the availability of extra public resources. When I dealt with the question of the list, I was not in a position to say that extra resources would be made available, but I have not rejected that application. I have the need to meet the challenge of keeping such items in this country well in mind when I frame my public expenditure bids, although how far they will succeed in a difficult period for public expenditure remains to be seen.
Mr. Brooke : In that context, does my right hon. and learned Friend make any distinction in his mind between British works of art and those works of art of other lands that were brought here at some stage in the past?
Mr. Mellor : That point is certainly taken into account as part of the Waverley rules. The Waverley rules apply to pre-eminent works that originated from outside this country. Origin plays a part in the interesting judgments that have to be made according to the Waverley rules.
Mr. Fisher : I join other hon. Members in congratulating the Secretary of State on his appointment and on the creation of his Ministry, which will be widely welcomed. I am less optimistic than he is about not resuming political hostilities. Before such hostilities resume, may I say that I hope that he gets a great deal of pleasure from, and does something with, his job? I also congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on rejecting the idiocy of the listing system and on his statement last week. Only his predecessor and Benito Mussolini thought that the system was a good idea. I am disappointed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman's response to the question about unfreezing national galleries' purchasing funds. He knows that the increase in funds elsewhere does not address the problem. When he was Arts Minister before, he listened to the chairman and directors of those national galleries constantly urging him to unfreeze those funds. Will he now call together the chairmen of the trustees, the directors of those national galleries and the chairman of the Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art to discuss, on the basis that those funds will be unfrozen, how best to unfreeze them? If he does not do that, his Department will soon be known not as the Ministry of National Heritage but as the Ministry of National Heritage and Humbug.
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Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman's intervention deteriorated during its course. On his first comment, if I can help him into the shadow Cabinet by my appointment, that will be a job well done. I have noted the reviewing committee's view that extra public resources should be available for intervention. I have not rejected that view, although I have to fit it in with the various other things that we have to do. There is a range of ways in which heritage items can be kept in this country. We have heard about theacceptance-in-lieu scheme and we know that there is a douceur available for sales by private treaty which has been of great use in relation to, for example, the purchase of the Holbein. We know that, when I was last Arts Minister, the national heritage memorial fund received a substantial boost in resources which has been deployed very usefully. We also know that, in a prosperous nation in which wealthy people no longer have to go into tax exile, it is possible to have individual acts of beneficence, such as the decision by Sir Andrew Lloyd-Webber--I congratulate him on his knighthood-- to purchase a Canaletto, which is now on public display. There is a range of ways in which things can be done. However, I do not ignore the role of public resources.
Relocation
2. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement about the future location of his Department.
Mr. Mellor : I shall make an announcement in due course.
Mr. Hughes : I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary. There could rarely be two people who are more qualified to take on the job. I envy them it myself : I cannot think of a better job to do in government.
Mr. Tony Banks : The hon. Gentleman will never get the chance.
Mr. Hughes : The chance may come.
When the Secretary of State evaluates the options for the location of his Department, will he consider seriously the office space in Rose court above the Rose theatre in Bankside on the south bank? The space is vacant and has been vacant since the Rose theatre was built. It is cheap and it would be much nearer than Canary Wharf. There could be no better location for the Department of National Heritage than Bankside, at the centre of Elizabethan greatness in England. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give that idea serious consideration?
Mr. Mellor : I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said. If he will kindly supply me with a list of all properties available in his constituency, I shall peruse it.
Mr. Bowis : May I suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend that the location of his Department should be in something more mobile--perhaps a mobile home--so that he can spend quite a lot of his time touring the country and ensuring that central to his plans for the arts and heritage are the many centres of excellence in the regions, not least the region of London? Away from the west end, there are many superb ventures to support the arts, from the Hackney Empire to the Battersea arts centre.
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Mr. Mellor : I am glad that the Battersea arts centre came into the question. I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says. I must, however, disappoint the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson)--who, sadly, is not in his place--who suggested that wherever the new Department was, it should be called Stan Flashman house. I reject that suggestion.
Mr. Boyes : Wherever the Secretary of State locates his new office, will he recognise the importance of photography--
Madam Speaker : Order. May we get the location of photography correct? The hon. Gentleman's question would then be in order. The question concerns the Department's location.
Mr. Boyes : Wherever the Secretary of State locates his offices, I hope that he will recognise the importance of photography, particularly by buying pictures from young photographers--the men and women who will be the photographers of the future. Will he bear that in mind?
Mr. Mellor : I will certainly do that. It was very generous of the hon. Gentleman to exclude himself by asking only about young photographers.
Taylor Report
3. Mr. Hicks : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage whether he has any proposals to modify the recommendations of the Taylor report as they relate to football clubs in the current third and fourth divisions of the English league ; and if he will make a statement.
15. Sir Michael Neubert : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what plans he has to review the policy for all-seater stadiums for Football League clubs.
Mr. Mellor : I announced last week that I was re-examining the all- seating requirement, with a particular focus on third and fourth division clubs and clubs in the second division with low average attendances. I have set a four-week period for the receipt of further views, and I intend to make an announcement before the summer recess. I am grateful to the all- party football committee and others in the House for their advice on this important matter.
Mr. Hicks : I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's interim statement on that subject. Does he agree that, whatever arrangements are eventually introduced, there must be maximum flexibility? The arrangements must take account of sides such as my local team, Plymouth Argyle, which seems to vacillate between the second and third divisions with amazing frequency. Would it not be sensible to adopt a formula whereby, if the average attendance is less than 50 per cent. of the ground's capacity, the club should be eligible for exemption?
Mr. Mellor : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's suggestion. I take the House with me when I say that we all agree that large clubs should be all-seater. Equally, we all agree that small clubs should not be all-seater if that is consistent with safety arrangements, as I believe it is. The difficulty is in deciding into which category each club will fit. That could be achieved by membership of a particular
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division or by maximum gate. We are considering that important detail and I will bear my hon. Friend's advice in mind.Sir Michael Neubert : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, although improved arrangements for safety inside stadiums are very welcome, the public outside stadiums also need to be safeguarded against the activities of the kind of empty-headed, beer-bellied louts who once again besmirched our national name in Sweden this weekend? Is not the key factor that they should be kept as far away as possible from alcohol?
Mr. Mellor : I did my best to express in Sweden what I feel certain is the feeling in the whole House about the disgraceful behaviour of a small minority of British--
Mr. Mellor : --of English football fans in Malmo at the weekend. That have very strongly reinforced my view that alcohol and football supporters--certainly English football supporters--do not mix well. We need to bear that in mind for the future.
Mr. Pendry : Will the Minister accept from me the congratulations of all football lovers in the House for taking the stand that he took with regard to relaxing the Taylor recommendations and for listening to the football world, while ensuring that safety standards are not relaxed as a result of the review? Will he now consider the related problem of the admission charges of certain premier league clubs, which receive Football Trust moneys, which are forcing many genuine football fans away from those grounds? Will he meet the Football Trust and urge it to ensure that its grants are related to realistic admission prices?
Mr. Mellor : Before the Football Trust decides what grants to make available, it must bear in mind resources available to clubs. Increases in admission prices are plainly a matter for the directors of the clubs concerned ; they are not my responsibility. However, I hope that all clubs will use their best endeavours not to price out of their grounds their most loyal supporters, some of whom do not have the means to withstand major increases in seat prices.
Mr. Grocott : Will the Secretary of State acknowledge the serious damage that is done to the finances of the third and fourth divisions--and, indeed, to the second division--by the deal that has been struck between the BBC and BSkyB for the coverage of live matches? Will he now link his responsibility for sport with his responsibility for broadcasting and acknowledge the simple truth that, far from extending people's freedom of choice, the proliferation of channels is restricting freedom of choice for many people--including many of my constituents who, like his, will no longer be able to watch live league football? Does he not think that that is a disgrace? Is it not time that he used his authority to encourage the football authorities to think again?
Mr. Mellor : When the Broadcasting Act 1990 was going through Parliament a couple of years ago, it was never suggested that league football should be on the list of protected events. Not so long ago, live league football was not available on any channel. It would be wrong for us to seek to intervene in the ability of the premier league to sell its product as it chooses. The real test for the
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premier league will be what it does with the money. I hope that the arrangements will lead not to an escalation of transfer fees and of the money paid to footballers but to an improvement in ground conditions, so that fans are housed in ways more appropriate to the 21st century than to the beginning of the 20th.As for broadcasting, there is more choice for sport on television today than there has ever been. We have to accept that we cannot opt out of the satellite revolution--nor should we try to do so. It would be perverse if we in Britain, one of the great centres of broadcasting, were somehow or other to try to restrict the development of satellite broadcasting from which so many other countries are benefiting.
Mr. John Carlisle : As my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Sir M. Neubert) said, the Taylor report was primarily concerned with hooliganism within grounds, but last night's scenes in Sweden, disgraceful as they were, highlighted problems that could exist outside grounds, whether in this country or elsewhere. What consultations has my right hon. and learned Friend had with his colleagues in the Home Office regarding those so-called fans, who would have been recognised on television? Were British police there? Does my right hon. and learned Friend have any ties through which those people can be brought to justice and, I hope, banned from football grounds in this country?
Mr. Mellor : The British police were much in evidence in Malmo and are working very closely with the Swedish police. Assistant Commissioner Malcolm George of the Greater Manchester police is leading our police team. The police have been looking at the videos that were taken of the incidents and have been identifying fans. Some of those fans who can be proved to have committed criminal offences are being charged in Sweden. If convicted, they could be prohibited from entering football grounds in the United Kingdom. Even if they are not convicted, if they can be identified, their names can be provided to other countries which may be hosting football matches. If those countries see fit, they can exclude those players-- [Interruption.] There may be a few players whom we want to exclude as well, but that is another matter. Those countries will be able to exclude those fans from admission. That is very important. Half a dozen fans were excluded this time. It should be more the next time England plays abroad.
Mr. Fatchett : Further to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's reply to his hon. Friends the Members for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) and for Romford (Sir M. Neubert), does he accept that Opposition Members totally condemn the behaviour of a small number of English football supporters? Will he recognise that their behaviour has put back the reputation of English football and damaged England's reputation in Europe?
What steps were taken to liaise with the Swedish police so that known troublemakers were recognised and isolated, and appropriate action taken? Was the Football Association responsible for selling tickets to individuals who have already been prosecuted for offences in this country? If so, what action will be taken to stop a repeat of the events of the past two nights? Will the Secretary of State make it clear to other countries with which English
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football is involved that the Government will take every possible action to ensure that there is no repeat of what happened in Sweden?Mr. Mellor : No one can ever guarantee that some people will not behave badly. There was great understanding on the part of both UEFA and the Swedish authorities of the real job that the football authorities, the Government and the police in Britain have done to improve arrangements. That included supplying the Swedish authorities with the names of nearly 300 known troublemakers so that they could be excluded if Sweden saw fit. It also included the advice which was formally minuted in the Council of Europe minutes of the official meetings before the championship that beer should not be served to English football fans.
I very much regret that, once again, we have had the opportunity of proving that beer and certain English football fans do not mix. That is not to say that that in any sense excuses the lamentable behaviour of some of those fans, flying in the face of the warmest of welcomes. Certainly, everything possible is being done to ensure that those who can be identified as playing a part in those events are arrested. Already, serious charges have been preferred by the Swedes. I certainly hope that serious charges will be preferred wherever there is evidence to justify it. I hope that we shall be able to exclude those convicted from going to football matches again for a long time.
Mr. Nigel Evans : Does the Secretary of State agree that the action that is taken following the incidents during the weekend in Sweden should fall on the heads of those who perpetrated those deeds, thereby protecting the vast majority of fans who went to Sweden to enjoy the matches, were peaceful, and did, indeed, enjoy the matches?
Mr. Mellor : There is no doubt about that. When I walked around Malmo yesterday, there was plenty of evidence of fans who appreciated the warmth of the welcome that they had received and themselves apologised to local residents for what had happened. I also make it absolutely clear that the Swedish authorities have done nothing to blow up the incidents out of proportion. If anything, they have sought to minimise them. There is no question but that there was anything other than a warm welcome in Sweden for Britons, whether football fans or others. I congratulate the Swedes on the generous hospitality that they showed us and on their willingness to overlook the disgraceful behaviour of a small minority.
Heritage Assets, Greenwich
4. Mr. Raynsford : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will visit Greenwich to consider how the unique heritage assets of the area can be best promoted and preserved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key) : My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary ofState visited the national maritime museum on 26 May, and I am a regular visitor to the borough.
Mr. Raynsford : I thank the Minister for his answer, but I stress that the unique and special element of the national heritage represented by the centre of Greenwich is more than merely the national maritime museum and requires
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urgent attention. Does the Minister recognise that the current appalling levels of traffic congestion are destroying and damaging that unique location? Is he prepared to discuss with his colleagues at the Department of Transport effective measures to restrict that traffic before the unique assets of the nation's and Greenwich's heritage are damaged irreparably?Mr. Key : Yes, I will. I should like to take the matter up with the borough itself. I visited Greenwich last Thursday, taking advantage of the one-line Whip, and renewed my acquaintance with the centre. I agree entirely that there is a tremendous problem of traffic, both around the centre and further along towards Woolwich. I have a long association with St. Alfege's church, as one of my forebears spent a long time just before the second world war raising funds to repair the roof. Unfortunately, he did not inform the Luftwaffe. There is a tremendous heritage in Greenwich, which needs protection, and the borough will receive a great deal of attention from me because it has some of the most wonderful secret parts of our heritage--for instance, the Trinity museum of 1616. I am well aware that there is more to Greenwich's heritage than the national maritime museum.
Mr. Peter Bottomley : Will my hon. Friend consider whether there are ways of encouraging Greenwich, like other boroughs, to contribute to the process of drawing tourists away from the main pressure points so that not only Greenwich receives environmental improvement? The site of the royal arsenal in Woolwich and Eltham palace in my constituency could be opened so that people could gain from the heritage of the whole borough. That would require co-ordinated action.
Mr. Key : Yes--and I have enjoyed singing in Eltham palace in my time. I visited the Woolwich arsenal site last Thursday evening to see how well the Ministry of Defence is playing its part. I was disappointed with the old entrance to the Woolwich dockyard area, but we could do something to improve that, too.
Arts and Media
5. Mr. Hall : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when he last met the chairman of the Arts Council to discuss the national arts and media strategy document.
Mr. Mellor : I regularly talk to the chairman of the Arts Council of Great Britain. I last saw him on 2 June to discuss a range of issues, including progress on the Arts Council's national arts and media strategy.
Mr. Hall : I am grateful for that answer. Does the Secretary of State recognise the excellence of the work done by local authorities in promoting the arts? For example, my own borough of Warrington has spent £350,000 on refurbishing its art gallery. It has staged several art exhibitions and in July will hold the premiere exhibition in the United Kingdom of the exciting Czech artist Jaroslav Cita. Will the Secretary of State reassure the House that he will fully consult local authorities in drawing up any future arts and media strategies and that they will be fully involved in the delivery of that strategy?
Mr. Mellor : I hope to have an opportunity to see for myself what Warrington does during one of my visits to
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the north-west. I have no doubt that the arts benefit most through generous Arts Council funding, combined with strong support from local authorities for local artistic activity. When I was Minister for the Arts, I had regular contact with local authority representatives, who serve on regional arts boards and who meet formally under the umbrella of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities. I look forward to continuing to meet those representatives in my new post.Mr. Jessel : I warmly congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend and the Government on the substantial increase in funding for the Arts Council in recent years. Has he noticed, however, that the Arts Council document makes scant reference to the fact that much of the greatest heritage in British and European art has a religious or patriotic inspiration? The document contains long sections on women's and feminist art, black art, disabled art, gay and lesbian art, young people's art, old people's art, and so on. Have the authors got their priorities right?
Mr. Mellor : I am sure that that is a perfectly legitimate question for my hon. Friend to direct to the authors of the document. At present, it is only a consultative document. I gather that I am to receive the finished product in September, and I shall read it with interest then.
Mr. Tony Banks : I realise that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be very much a hands-on Minister, and he has an awful lot of things to put his hands on. If, however, responsibility for funding the national arts bodies is to be taken away from the Arts Council, has it a future? Does the Minister envisage it remaining in its present form during, say, the next 12 months?
Mr. Mellor : I am glad that the hon. Gentleman asked me that. I have no ambitions to take over the funding of national bodies. Given a structure in which more funding decisions are made regionally, I think that the key question is what size the Arts Council should be. I also think, however, that the continuation of the Arts Council should be very much part of my plans--although we should seek mechanisms to ensure that the maximum amount spent by the Treasury for the benefit of the arts goes to arts organisations, and is not syphoned into excessive bureaucracy.
Mr. Brandreth : I bring my right hon. and learned Friend greetings from the city of Chester, which is the European capital of national heritage, and salute the Government for increasing arts funding by 60 per cent. in the past 12 years or so. May I remind my right hon. and learned Friend, however, that in his considerations with the Arts Council it is important to bear in mind the contribution of the amateur, as well as that of the professional to the world of arts?
Mr. Mellor : Yes--and I am sure that that is true in politics as well.
Tourism, Bolsover
6. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when he expects to visit Bolsover castle, Hardwick hall and Ogston reservoir to promote tourism in the area.
Mr. Key : I should be very happy to make such a visit when a suitable opportunity arises.
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Mr. Skinner : If the Minister decides--or dares--to go to Bolsover, he had better take some money with him and change the standard spending assessments for Bolsover and other local authorities to those which apply to Westminster and Wandsworth so as to improve the infrastructure, promote tourism in the area and get rid of the dioxin that is blighting it. If he decides to go without any money, we shall take him to Ogston reservoir which, despite the drought, is still deep enough to submerge a big fat Minister.
Mr. Key : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his gentle and friendly welcome, and I look forward to being given tea and sympathy in his ancestral home when I visit his constituency. It is just as well that in my previous incarnation I was a local government finance Minister. If only the hon. Gentleman's county council and other local authorities would stop mucking about and get down to some hard business, we might get somewhere.
To reply specifically to the points that the hon. Gentleman has made, I was indeed distressed to hear that the walls of Bolsover castle are crumbling in spite of the hon. Gentleman. I understand that research is being done by the Building Research Establishment and I shall read it with great interest. I also look forward to visiting Ogston reservoir. The hon. Gentleman should be proud to represent Hardwick hall, Bolsover castle and Ogston reservoir, which have an excellent record on tourism. An increasing number of people visit that part of the world, despite the hon. Gentleman.
Mrs. Currie : Would it not do wonders for tourism in Derbyshire if the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) were taken at his word, locked up in Bolsover castle and the key thrown away, and if he were then encouraged to make an exhibition of himself up there? I assure my hon. Friend of a warm welcome in south Derbyshire. May I invite him to take another look at the potential for tourism of the Trent and Mersey canal which runs right through my constituency?
Mr. Key : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her warm and friendly welcome and I look forward to visiting her constituency when I am in that part of the world. She is absolutely right to draw my attention and that of the House to the potential of waterways in tourism. Water is crucial there, as it is for urban regeneration schemes, and it is an important part of our tourist industry as well as our heritage.
Arts Administration
7. Mr. Tipping : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when he last met the chairs of the regional arts boards to discuss further devolution of arts administration.
Mr. Key : I look forward to meeting all the chairmen of the regional arts boards in due course. The Arts Council will submit to me by October its proposals for further delegation of its funding responsibilities.
Mr. Tipping : Will the Minister give an assurance that he intends to press ahead with the process of devolution? Bearing in mind the important part played by local authorities such as Nottinghamshire county council and the east midlands, will he assure us that they will have an important role in the process? The Minister will be aware
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of Nottinghamshire county council's fine support for opera. Will he attend the opening of the new community opera in September in Mansfield?Mr. Key : If that were possible, I would be keen to do so, and I look forward to hearing more details. Yes, it is clearly our intention to press ahead with those reforms, which will be of great benefit in terms of more local accountability and will encourage more access to, and interest in, the arts locally.
National Lottery
9. Mr. Alton : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what assessment he has made of the impact on the pools industry of the introduction of a national lottery.
Mr. Mellor : The consultation period on the White Paper finished on 1 June. We have had a number of responses from the pools industry. We shall be considering its views, and those of other respondents, before bringing forward proposals for legislation.
Mr. Alton : Will the Secretary of State confirm that in the course of examination of the implications of the national lottery he will look at examples elsewhere in the world? Does he recognise that there is no example anywhere in the world of a pools industry thriving alongside a national lottery? Given that the football pools industry employs 6,500 people, mainly women, that last year £300 million came into the national Exchequer from football pools, and that in areas such as Greater Liverpool many people depend on the pools for their jobs, will he give great consideration to the consequences for those employed and consider bringing a national lottery, should there be one, to an area such as Merseyside to compensate for the jobs that will be lost?
Mr. Mellor : I shall certainly bear those points in mind, along with the others made. One is always keen to look at international experience, although I am not sure how well developed pools industries are in other countries compared with that in our own. I want the national lottery to be a great success, as I believe do most hon. Members. I do not see the national lottery as meaning the end of the football pools. Far from it-- many people who do the football pools will continue to do so : it is part of their way of life. The hon. Gentleman should not be too gloomy about the future of the football pools.
Sir Ivan Lawrence rose-- [ Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear."] I begin by congratulating my right hon. and learned Friend on his inspired appointment. Is he aware that nowhere in Europe has a national lottery killed off a football pools industry where the football industry is strong and the pools industry is efficient? Can he tell us whether any of the pools in Britain have applied to run the national lottery, and whether he has told them that if they are so feeble and weak that they cannot bear the idea of competition they will not be much use running the national lottery?
Mr. Mellor : My hon. and learned Friend will have noted the pleasure that his knighthood has given his many friends in the House and I join them in congratulating him.
I wish to consider with care a number of issues relating to the football pools. I believe that it is absolutely clear
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that the industry can continue, and that it cannot and does not expect to have the right of veto over other developments. I cannot help feeling that the national lottery, as my hon. and learned Friend proved in a debate that he instigated a few months ago, is an idea whose time has come. We want to ensure that the maximum benefit from the proceeds of the national lottery goes to the many things that we all care about, but which, unfortunately, are never in pole position to obtain major increases from the Treasury.Edinburgh Festival
10. Dr. Godman : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what plans he has to make an official visit to Edinburgh during the 1992 international festival.
Mr. Key : Both my right hon. and learned Friend and I look forward to visiting the Edinburgh festival.
Dr. Godman : I am grateful and pleased to hear that the Secretary of State will visit Edinburgh during the festival and I assure him that he will receive a warm welcome from the people of Edinburgh and of Scotland. However, had the Secretary of State visited Scotland today, he would have been subject to an intensely warm reaction following his thoughtless comments about "British" football fans when referring to the disgraceful behaviour of English fans. May I remind the Minister that no Scottish fans were anywhere near Malmo", and that not one Scottish supporter has been in any kind of trouble? The same
Madam Speaker : Order. This is Question Time, not a statement.
Mr. Key : I am not quite so sensitive to that particular problem as the hon. Gentleman. I have a Scottish wife and I am a
Scottish-registered teacher.
On the main question, I look forward to visiting the Edinburgh festival and this year, as in previous years, it will be a huge success given its increased funding. I look forward to making some progress with my knowledge of the arts in Scotland, after too long an absence since I had my first job there as a school master. I also look forward to visiting the Perth repertory company, which has an outstanding record. Incidentally, that theatre was saved by my cousin.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
Disclosure of Evidence
29. Mr. Bennett : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the rules on disclosure of evidence in criminal cases.
30. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the guidelines governing disclosure in criminal cases.
The Attorney-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : Law and practice on disclosure have developed substantially in recent years, both before and since the Attorney-General's guidelines in 1981. In their evidence to the royal commission, the Law Officers have recommended that the rules on disclosure be given statutory force based on fairness and practicability.
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