House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Jun 1992

Ms. Jean Corston (Bristol, East) : I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me in this debate, and I intend to confine my remarks to the issue of drinking water quality. The concern that has been expressed about the quality of drinking water is evidenced by the volume of sales of water filters. Hon. Members should go and see how many water filters are on sale in any high street shop or Boots the chemist. If people were not buying them, they would not be for sale in such numbers or variety. The incresase in sales of mineral water is not just a question of style or the yuppie life but of mistrust of drinking water.

That was brought to my attention a year ago by somebody in the Bristol, East constituency when I was the Labour parliamentary candidate. A complaint was made about the taste of drinking water in one part of my constituency, Barton Hill. I suggested that the complainant, who was a member of a tenants group, should write to Bristol Water and ask for an analysis of drinking water at her residence, which she was entitled to under statute. She did so and received a long printout, none of which she could understand, but, fortunately, some of us could. It showed that her water was in clear breach of the drinking water directive.

That led to people in other parts of Bristol, East making similar requests to Wessex Water. Indeed, it was bombarded with requests for analysis, each of which showed that the water supply throughout Bristol, East was in breach of the drinking water directive. Let us remember that the directive was issued in 1976, yet the Minister referred to it as though it were quite new.

The water in Bristol, East was shown to be in breach for ammonium, lead, nitrites, nitrate and pesticide. I shall read the pesticide printout for a residence in Bristol, East. For a pesticide called CMPP, 40 per cent. of samples

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contravened the directive. For a pesticide called atrazine, 66 per cent. of samples contravened the directive. When I drew that figure to the attention of Bristol Water, the head of water quality management said that atrazine was "not very toxic". I do not consider "not very toxic" reassuring, and nor do my constituents. As for a pesticide called simazine, 16.6 per cent. of samples contravened the directive.

I then discovered that some of the analysis sheets showed that water in some parts of my constituency contained coliform or harmful bacteria. Under the Water Act 1989, there is a legal presumption against coliform of any shape or form. The analysis sheet from which I am reading shows that water contained 16 per cent. coliform and 4.5 per cent. faecal coliform. That means faecal material in the drinking water of my constituents.

I drew that to the attention of Bristol Water, which replied that it was probably due to people rinsing nappies under plastic taps. What decade are such people living in ? Nowadays people use disposable nappies which they do not rinse under taps. It is nonsense to suggest that one can blame faecal material in drinking water on one or two people who happen to have babies and plastic taps on the basis that they still use terry towelling nappies. That seems a spurious reason.

People have also rung to say that, when they filled their fish tanks, the fish died. What in the water causes fish to die ? This is happening 15 years after the directive was introduced. The Government have had years in which to invest in the water industry, and it does not lie in their mouths to blame Labour, which had only three years to do something, for their decade of neglect since the 1976 directive.

If that was the case and still is the case--water is still in a bad state in Bristol, East--and if that had been made clear to the public in 1989, who would have bought shares in the water industry ? People would have been told to buy shares, but in an industry that was massively under-invested and in which the water was clearly in breach of the directive. They would have been told that the Government had had only 10 years in which to comply and that their time was up and the game was up, so what did they do ? They introduced the Water Supply (Water Quality) Regulations 1989.

Under those regulations, the water companies were told that they would be immune from prosecution if they gave what were called undertakings. They were sometimes given what were called relaxations. I wrote to Wessex Water and, as I practise law, I found out what the regulations meant in my constituency. I have here a list from the Department of the Environment. It states that Bristol Water must install treatment for pesticides by 1997. The date by which steps are to be completed for nitrides was 31 December 1995. How long before ammonia is to be removed from the drinking water in my constituency ? The deadline is 31 December 1995. As for aluminium, it had only to investigate the extent of failures to comply with the appropriate standards and identify remedial work, and it has until 31 December 1994 to do so. There is no date for iron--steps are on-going. As for lead, it must identify zones by 31 December 1994.

Is that a record of success ? We are told that coliform must be removed by 31 March 1990, which is an amazing admission, because legislation dated the year before made

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a legal presumption against the presence of coliform in drinking water in any event. That is a weird deception, and also a dereliction of duty by the Government.

People in my constituency are now paying ever higher prices for a product which many of them will never drink because they are worried about what is in it. It is no good accusing politicians of being scaremongers merely because they read aloud figures provided by the company about which the Government boast. That is not good enough. My constituents are being asked to pay by a Marie Antoinette Government, who say, "Let them drink Perrier."

8.54 pm

Sir Anthony Durant (Reading, West) : I first apologise to the House for not being here for most of the debate. I was attending meetings, and I apologise for arriving at this late stage. I am delighted, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you called the hon. Member for Bristol, East (Ms. Corston), who had waited for so long.

When debating the water industry, we need to consider its history. We must realise that most of the capital investment in the industry--in sewerage and water purification--took place in the 1800s. Much of the current equipment, especially that for sewerage, dates from that time when the money was first spent. When the Government realised that there was a major problem in trying to put the matter right, they had a choice : they could have introduced enormous levels of taxation and used public money in an attempt to put right an industry which was in a bad state, but they chose the alternative of privatisation, which I support. I believe that it was the right way to proceed.

When the first Bill on water privatisation was introduced, I was not very happy, because one of my interests in life is inland waterways and rivers. It occurred to me that, with the first Bill, there was a danger that issues such as navigation and the conservation of rivers would be neglected. Therefore, I was delighted when the second Bill appeared, setting up the National Rivers Authority.

I believe that the NRA has done a remarkable job. Lord Crickhowell, who was the Secretary of State for Wales, has taken on the job with great enthusiasm. He has prosecuted every water authority. He set out to shake them up--some seriously and some not so seriously. He recently announced that he will tighten regulations on extraction from rivers. There is a particular problem in my constituency with the River Pang, from which Thames Water extracts water. It is now in a serious state. It is a beautiful fishing river, and its condition is a cause of great concern to my constituents, especially those in Pangbourne which is based on the River Pang.

My concern and my criticism of the Government involves the environmental protection agency. I do not wish the NRA to be gobbled up by the agency which the Government proposes to establish. It should keep its role in dealing with water. I do not want the excellent powers being exerted by the NRA to be lost to the agency. Let us keep the National Rivers Authority.

The Labour party talks about renationalisation of the water authorities. Labour admits that it will take 51 per cent. of the stock, which will cost about £8 billion on present prices. It will then have dumped on it £28 billion,

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which is the current investment programme. All of that will have to come out of the public sector borrowing requirement.

The Labour party does not have a very good record on the water industry. It cut investment by one third when it was in power. Lord Wilson, when he was Prime Minister, appointed Denis Howell as Minister for water. His only success was that, on the day he was appointed, it started to rain, so he felt that he was a successful Minister. It was the same when he was Minister for snow, and the snow stopped the day he was appointed. He had some magic qualities, and had successes in that regard.

I well remember when Denis Howell introduced a water rate equalisation scheme, which other hon. Members may not remember. Wales had bad investment in its water industry because it did not have investment coming in from consumers. The scheme was introduced, and we in the Thames Water area had to pay certain sums to Wales so that it could put its water system right. That did not work, either. We have the lowest water prices in Europe, which is to the Government's credit, because they have kept prices down. Opposition Members ask why we cannot borrow. If one borrows money, it has to be repaid and one has to pay interest on the amount borrowed, which is another debt to the consumer. The Government are putting money into the water authorities ; they put in £2 billion to support the EC directive on clean water, which the hon. Member for Bristol, East mentioned.

The water industry is a good story, and it is getting its house in order. Water is being serviced better, and we have better quality. The rivers are cleaner. Salmon, for example, are now appearing in the River Thames, where they have not been seen for many hundreds of years. The quality of the River Thames, on which I spend a lot of time, is becoming quite clean and is looking very healthy. The NRA is doing a wonderful job there.

It is not all doom and gloom, as the Opposition claim ; it is a success story. Of course improvements are expensive ; water is expensive, which is one of the problems. People have not realised that one has to pay for water. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) said, water is an essential commodity. However, it must be paid for.

All sorts of ideas for helping those on the lowest incomes may be considered, and I am not necessarily against a scheme to assist such people, but we must pay for the water we use. I am in favour of metering, and I want it to be introduced on a much bigger scale. One of my constituents ran a campaign to get a meter. He refused to pay his water bills because he lived on his own, he used the wash basin only twice a day and he flushed the loo only twice a day. He held out until his water was cut off. When he came to see me in my surgery he said, "Don't get too near me, because I smell." He was determined to get a water meter, because he felt that metering was the right way in which to tackle the water system. In the end, the water authority gave in and provided him with his own water meter. The result was that his bills fell and he paid only for what he used ; so his campaign was successful.

I am in favour of water metering. I know that experiments are going on at present, and I shall be interested to see how they work out. There are now

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technical ways in which to meter water which do not require great amounts of capital equipment, and I believe that that is the way in which we must go forward.

I am in favour of the Government's policy on water. I believe that it is the right way in which to more forward. I hope that we shall improve the service, as the water authorities intend to do, and that we shall improve the capital investment and especially the sewerage system, which is where most of the capital has to go.

When I became a local councillor, we put in a main sewer because the local council was then responsible for sewerage. Many people said, "Isn't this going to cost and awful lot of money?" A very experienced councillor said to me, "You never get any complaints about spending money underground, but if you flush the loo and the sewage does not go away, you have a riot on your hands." We must have investment in our water industry, and the water companies are investing £2 billion. I hope that that will provide both the quality of the water, which the hon. Member for Bristol, East mentioned, and an efficient sewerage system.

9.3 pm

Mr. Bill Etherington (Sunderland, North) : I was interested to hear the hon. Member for Reading, West (Sir A. Durant) refer to Denis Howell, who was appointed Minister of drought, as some called the post, in 1976. I bitterly regret that the Labour Government did not do anything then to introduce the proposal for a national water network. It is appropriate that this debate takes place during the week in which the chairman of the National Rivers Authority is threatening to prevent water companies from abstracting water from certain rivers. Last year I spoke to people in Sussex, Dorset and other parts of the south country who were worried about the drought in the south of England. Sixteen years have passed by, but nothing has been done.

What concerns me--I have said this before, but it needs stating again--is that there are never any benefits from privatising a monopoly. Let us make no mistake about it. Since denationalisation of the water industry there has been no commensurate reduction in prices, and no improvement in services or quality.

Many people will point out that vast investment is required to bring water standards up to the quality required by European Community regulations. When the industry was nationalised, there was always the possibility that a water network would be built. We are now in the ridiculous situation of facing the threat of standpipes in the south and south-east while there is a glut of water in the north. The Kielder reservoir was built in the north- east at a time when a tremendous increase in industrial use was expected, especially on Teesside. That reservoir provides water to the rivers Tyne, Wear and Tees, from which water can be abstracted, but that is as far as it goes. There has even been talk of exporting water from the north-east to increase revenue for the Northumbrian water authority. When one thinks about what will be necessary to improve supply and prevent the threat of drought in the south, it is a worrying scenario. We all know that every private company is required by law to look after the interests of its shareholders first and customers next. Imagine the wrangling that will be involved if a pipeline is to be built to bring water from the north to the south of England--it almost defies imagination.

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As the years go by, the problem will not be resolved because there seem to be irreversible changes in the water tables and in rainfall patterns, and there is a burgeoning population in the south. Eventually the private companies will return to the Government with a begging bowl. I do not think that any private company would be willing to invest money when a service is involved. They will invest money for a return on their capital--there is no problem about that--but will not invest in such a large-scale project. That was why so many industries were nationalised. It was not because they had been marvellous successes and the Government wanted to take them over for the benefit of the people, but because they were inefficient and were not providing adequate and suitable services.

I forecast that the Government will have to take action if we have another two or three years of low rainfall and problems with drought and lowering water tables. I do not believe that the private water companies are capable of agreeing among themselves to provide a national water network, which is the only possible long-term solution to the problem.

I hope that in the years ahead I shall not have the dubious pleasure of looking back on these words and saying that I was right. I should love to be proved wrong, but I do not think that that will happen.

9.7 pm

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : I am glad to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Etherington) and that he caught your eye at this late hour, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The Minister of State made a rather cantankerous and nagging speech. He unwisely quoted an opinion poll, but he spoke well on sewerage. He gave way frequently, but not to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon). He made an important statement regarding his intentions on water management. However, work on the London ring main was started before privatisation.

All of us in the Chamber at the time heard the Minister say that the framework of the water industry is working as intended, which was a strange and provocative statement for Opposition Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray) denounced the sale of the century. He said bluntly, in his typical style, that the privatisation was a scandal. I shall not follow him and discuss Scottish matters.

The hon. Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw) conceded that prices had risen and that, in some respects, hardship had ensued. He at least, gave way to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax. Clearly, he welcomed the debate, which contrasted greatly with the Minister of State's tardy response to it.

The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) made a sharp speech. He felt that Conservative Members should have worn sackcloth and ashes when they spoke today. He said that there was no competition in the industry. He referred to the Minister of State as an organ grinder and thought that Her Majesty's Government were selling off the family silver.

The Conservative Member for Dorset, West (Sir J. Spicer) said that we should not aim for perfection at whatever cost. He linked investment in the industry with the need for investment in the third world, which was a challenging concept.

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My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) argued that there was little support for water privatisation among the electorate, and he is surely right. He argued for a national strategy for the industry. The whole thrust of his speech was that there is no such strategy. He concluded by denouncing the water authorities' licence to print money, which was given to them by the Government. We understand why the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) made an animated speech, because he predicted that water charges in his region would increase by between 15 and 20 per cent. He described that as an outrage, which had caused a great deal of anger in his constituency. He said that his region at least needed some fine tuning, and he prayed in aid John Hampden and ship money. Many of us enjoyed the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies). It is nice to welcome him back to the House and to hear his first speech as the hon. Member for that constituency. His predecessor was the much-liked James Lamond, who chaired some of the proceedings on the Water Bill. My hon. Friend has brought with him a handsome majority. Until recently, he was the distinguished secretary of the parliamentary Labour party and of the parliamentary committee. In the previous Labour Government, he undertook an important role most successfully and I enjoyed serving alongside him. Today was the first time he had spoken in the House for 13 years. With his typical humour, he said that he was a fit and active hon. Member who did not need a level playing field, a kick start or a retread. All of us who heard him know that he will serve his constituency honourably, conscientiously and successfully. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Burden) made a spirited speech. He was perhaps the only hon. Member who did not overlook the contribution of the employees in this important industry.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms. Abbott) made a strong plea for a much-needed open space in her constituency which supports a wide variety of birds. She argued strongly against what she described as potential asset-stripping. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown) anticipated a staggering increase in the demand for more and more water. By implication, he was calling for a strategy from the Government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) said that we had won the argument, even if his team had lost the soccer match today, by rather a large margin, against the lobby correspondents. My hon. Friend made a strong speech defending the interests of his constituents, who are already getting a good service from him. My hon. Friend, typically, spoke on behalf of poor people and said that price rises in the industry were going through the roof.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock and Burntwood (Dr. Wright) denounced what he rightly saw as the strategic decision of placing the burden on the poorer consumer. My hon. Friend seeks greater accountability in the industry, and I agree with him. He said that Ministers sheltered behind the water companies and the regulator. The hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) rightly denounced the poll tax.

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My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Ms. Corston), like others in the debate, talked about the important subject of water quality. She pointed to the increasing sales of drinking water and said that such purchases were not just a question of style or the fads of yuppies. Her conclusion, with which I agreed, was that it showed the suspicion of many people in her area about the quality of drinking water.

On the issue of investment in the water industry, the chairman of Welsh Water, John Elfed Jones, is on record as saying that the only reason for his conversion to privatisation was the belief that it would free Welsh Water to invest in the water industry in Wales. In fact, a great deal of money has been used for other investment--for example, for the purchase of a 15 per cent. shareholding in South Wales Electricity and for buying five luxury country house hotels. Without doubt, more money is being invested in the industry in Wales. That is welcome, although in some respects it is an indictment of the low level of investment by the Conservatives in the decade from 1979 onwards. The current investment is at massively increased cost to the water consumer. Before privatisation, it was said that investment would be financed partly by central Government and partly by local consumers. Now the whole burden is shouldered by the consumer. That represents another flat rate tax without regard to ability to pay, and it increases the burden on the ordinary family. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East said, water privatisation focused public concern on the state of drinking water, the quality of which in the United Kingdom has rightly been condemned by the European Commission. In Wales, according to the latest report of the drinking water inspectorate, 27 per cent. of water supply zones do not meet the Government's standards for lead, 19 per cent. for coliforms and 15 per cent. for aluminium. The water industry has had to admit that in 1995, 10 years after the original deadline set by the Commission, water supplies to thousands of households throughout Wales will still breach European standards. It is also calculated that 295 km of Welsh rivers and canals are classified as poor or bad by the National Rivers Authority.

Ofwat's accountability has also been mentioned. In Wales, people are concerned at the water industry's lack of public accountability directly to the Welsh people. On matters relating to the water industry in Wales, Ofwat should be directly accountable to the Secretary of State for Wales. That is what Labour Members repeatedly called for in Committee. Instead, it is clear that the Welsh committee of Ofwat reports to the director general, who in turn reports to the Secretary of State for the Environment. So once again, accountability for matters of direct concern to the people of Wales has moved to London. Ownership and regulation of Welsh Water now rest in London, and no longer in Wales--as they should.

Ofwat's powers in respect of water disconnection have been called into question. Last year, the director general of Ofwat expressed concern about the large number of disconnections by Welsh Water. The latest figures, published only two years ago, show that Welsh Water disconnected more customers than any other water company. I am sorry to tell the House that last year alone 2,938 households were disconnected. The fact that Ofwat has --only now--decided to investigate the problem has

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rightly caused concern. Many people in Wales wonder what the director general has been doing for the past 12 months.

Will the Secretary of State for Wales launch an investigation into those disconnections? In so doing, he will ensure that Welsh water issues are in his hands, which is what we want. We do not want them in the hands of the Secretary of State for the Environment. It would also ensure that the social and economic problems faced by many households in Wales are taken fully into account.

At this stage in the debate, I should like to mention the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. It is rightly concerned about the rate of water disconnections and says in its submission to Ofwat that there is a need for further safeguards against disconnection for certain groups of customers, particularly the elderly, the disabled and the many households with children.

Water disconnection is a punitive measure which will only increase hardship, and it should not be used where consumer non-payment is a result of poverty. People in Wales know all about poverty. The House may not know that the average household income in Wales is lower than anywhere else in Britain and earnings are among the lowest in the United Kingdom. Nearly 30 per cent. of men working full time earn less than £200 a week, and more than 30 per cent. of women working full time earn less than £150 a week. Those worrying statistics are apposite to the debate. So, too, are the unemployment statistics. In Gwent the unemployment rate is more than 11 per cent., in Gwynedd it is some 13.7 per cent., in Mid Glamorgan some 25,900 people are out of work, in the Rhondda 3,978 people are out of work, and in South Glamorgan more than 15,000 people are out of work in the great city of Cardiff.

People who are out of work find paying their water charges a major problem. The Government's set formula has been responsible for the huge increase in water prices. Since water privatisation, Welsh Water's charges have increased by 44 per cent. Last year they increased by 16.2 per cent. Welsh Water has made much of the fact that it will raise its prices by only 5 per cent. above the rate of inflation next year, but as the Financial Times asked the other day, will that self-imposed price cap keep the regulators off the company's back or is it just further proof of how generous the Government were when they set Welsh Water's K allowance?

Taxation is being privatised. Water privatisation is only part of a wider shift in the tax burden, which is affected by water, electricity, gas and telephone charging policies. They have all shifted the burden away from direct taxation towards direct charges which do not reflect ability to pay.

I have read, as other hon. Members probably have, about water from Wales going to other districts to alleviate water shortages. The chairman of Welsh Water has said that he would expect a good rate of return to Welsh Water from any such plans. I hope that Welsh Water customers, rather than the company, will benefit in reduced charges and better services. The people of Wales want assurances that any such scheme will not lead to further flooding to increase the capacity of reservoirs.

The Labour party believes that the Welsh Water authority must get its priorities right. We want it to concentrate on its core activities--to improve water quality and customer service, and keep bills down. Instead, the opposite has happened and Welsh Water has followed a policy of diversification into exclusive country house

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hotels and stock market bids for South Wales Electricity. In Committee, the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Conwy (Sir W. Roberts) defended privatisation, as we always knew he would, on the grounds that Welsh Water would concentrate on its core activities, but that did not happen.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) has a dossier on disconnections and increased charges. I have seen four such cases. As my hon. Friend told me :

"Yet another of my constituents has been put into court for one month's arrears in water charges. This particular case was dismissed but only after my old age pensioner constituent was terrified and upset over the prospect of court action."

It is appropriate to pose the question : what is the reality of a water supply cut-off for an ordinary family? In March this year, a young mother in great distress, living in the heart of my constituency, stood at her front door and asked me for help.

Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : Labour Members are perturbed at old-age pensioners being taken to court due to delays in payment of water charges, while the chairman of the Welsh Water authority allows his salary to treble. We think that that is disgusting and deplorable, and it is a result of privatisation.

Mr. Jones : My hon. Friend's intervention truly reflects public opinion throughout Wales.

My constituent told me of her four young children, one of whom had a heart murmur, and of her husband who was on income support. As a family, they were in debt to the Welsh Water authority. She said that their water had been cut off and she was beside herself with worry, anxiety and alarm. She asked me what I could do for her children. At the time, I could not answer her. She was concerned for her children, especially the one with the heart murmur. Of course customers must pay their way, but it is wrong that super- rich water authorities should behave like all-powerful juggernauts. The punishment of an individual often entails penalising the elderly, the disabled and the young.

The consequences are severe. To help my constituent and the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda get over their distress, perhaps in preparation Welsh Water will let them stay free at one of its fine luxury hotels. I have the details for one such hotel. The tariff at the Cwrt Bleddyn hotel and country club in Usk displays charges which may seem reasonable to some but are certainly not for others. The hotel charges £160 for a full suite or £125 for a period room. The cheapest menu costs £22.50 per person, but the gourmet menu comes in at £32.50 and includes a warm salad of local wood pigeon as a starter. After that, guests can have saddle of venison with a piquant sauce of orange.

Mr. John Jones, the chairman of the Welsh Water, enjoys a salary of £143,000. It has increased by 211 per cent. since 1989. He has share options which totalled £290,000 by the end of May 1992. Since 1989, bills from Welsh Water have increased by 44 per cent. In the year 1991-92, there were 2,938 domestic disconnections.

Little wonder that, according to The Guardian, there has been a wave of criticism of Welsh Water. Its report states that the company has faced criticism from South West Electricity :

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"David Jones, the managing director, said : Perhaps it would be better if Welsh Water concentrated on its own business. It already has plenty on its plate in dealing with pollution of our coast line and improving its standard of customer service.' "

It is time for Welsh Water to consider the corporate image that it wants to convey. Can it really defend disconnecting such a necessity of life for the needy while proudly presenting its large and growing profits to the City? Its principle objectives should be a plentiful supply of wholesome water for every household at the lowest possible cost. Four years on, the conflicts between that objective and the interests of shareholders and the constant necessity to make a profit is still evident.

There is still a long way to go in environmental protection, sewage disposal and drinking water standards. So far the record is not good enough, which is why we ask the House to support our motion. 9.33 pm

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : There have been 22 speakers in this debate, which has been characterised by some good humour, a wide range of points and, sad to say, a paucity of Members for most of its duration.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies) on his recycled speech. [Interruption.] Hon. Members who have just entered the Chamber will see what I mean when they refer to Hansard. The hon. Gentleman asked us to eradicate from the record three well-known phrases, but his request did not have much effect on his hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), who repeated all three. I shall not do that. I compliment the hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton on a clean speech that was delivered virtually without notes. He paid a warm tribute to James Lamond, who was a distinguished member of the Speaker's Panel and much respected in the House. I was under his chairmanship many times. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make many speeches and I wish him success in the future.

I suspect that by calling the debate the Opposition were trying to promote some total fiction, pretending that they care about the water industry's customers and that the Government do not. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have tried to argue that, in privatising the industry, we disregarded the interests of customers. A major consideration in our decision to transfer the industry to the private sector was the conviction that customers would benefit from improved efficiency and standards and the provision of services at the lowest possible cost. That conviction is being borne out by events. In privatising the water industry, we were conscious of the risk of creating private-sector monopolies with excessive power over the consumer. That topic has featured in many speeches, and I agree that such power would be totally unacceptable. Therefore, privatisation went hand in hand with the creation of powerful regulators. These were the Director General of Water Services, the National Rivers Authority and the drinking water inspectorate. As a result, we now have the most effectively and comprehensively regulated water industry in Europe, perhaps in the world.

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray) made a characteristically robust speech. I watched his

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prowess in the tug of war with great respect and considerable fear. He gave himself a great deal of rope when he clearly said that all the privatised industries should be taken into public ownership.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : That sounds pretty good.

Mr. Hunt : There is a rustle among the leaves below the Gangway, but I did not hear much else.

The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) spoke about records being broken, but she did not mention the record investment in the water industry. We heard much about the state of the industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw), who is not only a non-executive director of a water company but was a Minister in the Department of the Environment, made some salient points about the need for major investment and huge underground renovations. That is especially true in the context of the progress being made in reducing leakage. He stressed that it is vital to renew the nation's assets--and that is precisely what is being done by the record level of investment.

The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) said that we must learn lessons from other regulators, and I could not agree more. There is a great deal of contact between the different regulators, who have become an indispensable part of the regulation of key industries. We learn a great deal from the way that regulation operates in other industries, and we shall continue to do so. The hon. Member for North Cornwall made an almost preposterous point when he described Liberal Democrat water industry policy, which was highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls). The hon. Member for North Cornwall said that we ought to abolish standing charges. He was challenged to say whether the Liberal Democrats would abolish standing charges for millionaires. At that point, a smile came over the hon. Gentleman's face, and he said, "Of course." As my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge pointed out, there will be a surge of millionaires to north Cornwall, anxious to get their water charges on the backs of everyone else who pays.

Mr. Tyler : The Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) are arguing for means-tested pensions.

Mr. Hunt : Not at all. I do not want to delve too deeply into Liberal Democrat policy, because I would hit bottom very quickly. My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Sir J. Spicer) made a distinctive contribution. He is proud of Wessex Water's excellent record--and if I may pay tribute to my hon. Friend, he gave a good example of why he is respected as an excellent constituency Member of Parliament.

My hon. Friend pointed out that, contrary to the rumours put about by Labour, 90 per cent. of our rivers conform to EC standards, whereas the figure for the Community as a whole is only 45 per cent. The hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) also delved into the question of public ownership, and said that he would bring water back into public ownership. My hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside pointed out in his excellent speech that we were hearing conflicting noises from the Opposition Benches. That may

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be understandable after the election, but it was not justified before the election. No one in the water industry knew what a Labour Government would have done to the industry. The voices of Provan and of Carlisle confuse us even more.

We then heard an excellent contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge, who represents his constituents vigorously. He has done so for some time, and I am sure that he will continue to do so. We realise the strength of feeling among his constituents on these key issues. My hon. Friend has made a number of points to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, who I am sure will bear them in mind.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) put the record straight. It is no use the Opposition saying that the necessary investment would be made under public ownership, when that never happened. The Labour Government cut investment in the water industry by 21 per cent.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Hunt : I know that the guilty men will refuse to acknowledge that.

Mrs. Ann Taylor : Despite the number of times that we have repeated the figures, the Secretary of State has not grasped the basic fact that investment in the water industry under the last Labour Government averaged £1,254 million a year, compared with pre-privatisation investment under the Conservatives of £922 million a year. It was 1987 berfore spending by a Conservative Government reached even the worse year under the last Labour Government.

Mr. Hunt : Having made the longest speech--

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : Withdraw.

Mr. Hunt : No, I shall not do that, because what I said was true. Having made the longest speech in the debate, the hon. Member for Dewsbury is now making the longest intervention, and getting nowhere. It is a fact that the Labour Government cut investment in the water industry by 21 per cent.

Let me now deal with the points that were made by the hon. Member of Alyn and Deeside about Wales. Will he please inform his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) that, in the past year, investment in the Welsh water industry has amounted to £189 million. Next year, it will be £200 million. Let us compare that with the level of investment in 1978-79, the last year in which Labour held office. In real terms-- [Interruption.] I know that the hon. Member for Dewsbury does not want to hear. In real terms, investment is now 80 per cent. higher.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Hunt : No, I will not give way.

Let me tell the hon. Members for Alyn and Deeside, for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) and for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) that we have an extremely successful water company in Wales. It is the largest indigenous company that we have, and we all are very proud of it--except some Opposition Members.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West) : Will the Secretary of State give way?

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Mr. Hunt : Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to answer points made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North during the debate, not all of which he attended?

For every £100 that Welsh consumers pay in water charges, Welsh Water spends £108 on improving services and upgrading water quality. In the coming year, it will spend £117 for every £100 spent by consumers.

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