House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Jun 1992

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that no problems arise in obtaining the necessary approval. Such initiatives are an important way forward for the recycling of all materials.

Anyone who has more than a passing interest in and knowledge of the recycling business, believes that the Government must play a firm and decisive role in developing the recycling market. The Government should not fight shy of that role on the ground that it would interfere with the workings of the free market, which is so beloved by the Adam Smith Institute. The Government have already interfered in one important part of the market with the introduction of fiscal measures relating to leaded and unleaded petrol. Unfortunately, it was not an environmentally conscious desire of motor car users that led to the big expansion in the use of unleaded petrol. It simply happened because the Government decided to interfere in the market to make the use of unleaded petrol a favourable and worthwhile option. Some plastic materials can also be recycled. About a fifth of consumer waste, by volume, comes from plastics, but only about 7 per cent. by weight. The Department of Trade and Industry recycling advisory unit at the Warren Spring laboratory estimates that up to between 60 and 70 per cent. of all domestic plastic waste could be recovered. However just 5.7 per cent. was reclaimed in 1989, and that from the industrial and commercial sectors.

Post-consumer plastic waste, which is found mainly in packaging materials, is another important area in which improvements could be made. To take a simple example, more than 400 tonnes of plastic and polystyrene vending cups are discarded in shops, offices and factories every week in Britain. As much as 35 per cent. of all plastics are used in packaging. If the plastics were recycled in new products, we could make an 80 per cent. saving in energy.

Mr. Tony Banks : My hon. Friend's argument could be driven home if this place set a much better example. It is not a question of getting at the Government ; we should set an example. My hon. Friend spoke of plastic cups, but we use vast amounts of them in the Refreshment Department and that should be stopped.

I have noticed some new ingenious devices in the toilets. I thought that they were spying cameras to observe indiscretions in the gents, but they are infra-red machines that switch the lights on and off and make the loos flush only when they are used. They are good, welcome examples. Will my hon. Friend encourage the House authorities to extend the use of such environmentally friendly practices throughout this place so that we can set an example?

Mr. Griffiths : I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I wholeheartedly concur with him, but not just for the environmentally sound reasons which prompted his remarks. I absolutely hate drinking from plastic and polystyrene cups. I should like them to be banned altogether.

I was referring to the 80 per cent. energy savings that we could make from recycling plastics. Of course, we must take account of the energy costs of collecting the plastics for recycling. However, I gather that, despite them, no one has ever challenged the fact that the recycling of plastics has a plus side.

Big improvements can also be made in the recycling of cans. We in Britain use about 12 billion tin-plated steel cans each year. It is estimated that, in 1989, 1,050 million

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steel cans were recycled, less than 10 per cent. of the total. At present, 23 local authorities are recycling cans by magnet separation. There is a 75 per cent. energy saving when steel from scrap is used in the steel-making process. Even taking into account the energy cost of transport, there is a major advantage in the process.

About 2 billion aluminium cans are used in the United Kingdom each year. If they were all recycled, there would be about £13 million worth of product. In 1989, only 60 million aluminium cans, about 3 per cent., were recycled, though by 1990 the figure had improved to 11 per cent. As the hon. Member for Blaby and others pointed out, the industry has a target for recycling 50 per cent., but there is no reason why, with proper collection methods, we could not raise that to close to 100 per cent.

The savings in terms of energy and the value of the aluminium cans returned, not to mention the slowdown in resource depletion, makes that an important option. I hope that the aluminium industry, with encouragement from the Government, will set itself the target of close to 100 per cent. by the end of the century. Perhaps we should not be over-optimistic, and set a target of 95 per cent., the rate being achieved now by some countries.

About 6 billion glass containers are used every year in the United Kingdom. The average household throws out five bottles or jars each week. Each person uses 15 kg of glass a year. Glass makes up about 8 per cent. by weight of domestic refuse.

Bottle banks have existed in Britain for about 13 years. There are more than 5,000 banks, with the target for 1995 of 10,000 bottle banks. Severn and Leeds are two authorities with the most extensive bottle schemes, and they are proving extremely successful. Warren Spring laboratory estimates that 2 million tonnes of bottle were landfilled in 1989. So there is potential for doubling the amount of bottles that can be recycled, remembering that in the recycling process there is a 25 per cent. energy saving.

Some countries in Europe--for example, Holland--have one bottle bank for every 1,200 people. Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, Holland and West Germany have all achieved glass recycling levels of more than 50 per cent. The European average is 33 per cent. We in Britain manage about 20 per cent.

There is growing awareness and activity by local authorities in the recycling of textiles, which make up 4 per cent. by weight of post-consumer waste. It is reckoned that £400 million worth of cloth is thrown away each year.

A large proportion of the textiles and fibres that we consume is imported. Once again, increased recycling could help to improve the balance of payments deficit. Textile mills in the United Kingdom use about 1 million tonnes of fibre each year, of which 70 per cent. are man-made, 20 per cent. are wool and 10 per cent. are cotton. Textile consumption is also about 1 million tonnes a year and the recycling rate is about 25 per cent. of the total. Second-hand clothing represents 15 to 20 per cent. of total reclaimed fibre.

Those few examples of materials that can be recycled show the advantages in cutting down the amount that goes into landfill as well as the energy and resource savings and,

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perhaps most important for the Government, because they need some relief in this sector, possible savings for the balance of payments deficit.

Much still needs to be done. The most recent survey on public attitudes shows that consumers have a positive attitude towards recycling. A recent Mintel survey showed that 94 per cent. of consumers believed in recycling. The Government could exploit that positive aspect to recycling in promoting their recycling initiatives.

Mr. Tony Banks : Two categories of our population seem to be most interested in recycling. The first category is the elderly. They remember the shortages of the war and the fact that they were encouraged to recycle waste. Anyone collecting "on the dust" will confirm that collecting from pensioners and elderly people is almost a pleasure, in so far as that task can be considered a pleasure. The second category is young people. I hope that when my hon. Friend is a Minister in the next Labour Government--a little way off yet--he will encourage schools to extend teaching and education about waste and environmentally friendly practices. Kids will then grow up to be responsible elderly people like those we have today who treat their waste disposal as a matter of considerable concern--even with pride.

Mr. Griffiths : I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and particularly for his aspirations for my career. I agree with him entirely about those people who take a most active part, a pleasure and, as he says, even a pride in recycling. My daughter has recently started teaching in Harrow and her school takes an active interest in that subject. Moreover, organisations like Waste Watch are active in trying to promote recycling and a responsible attitude to the environment through various educational and information programmes. The Mintel survey found that, having got virtually everybody to say that they believed that recycling was a good thing, there was then a great gap between aspiration and performance-- rather like the opinion polls in the general election. The survey found that of the 94 per cent. who were in favour of recycling, only 41 per cent. regularly took their bottles, cans or newspapers to a collection point. The survey concluded that the Government's target of recycling 25 per cent. of all household waste by the year 2000 is unlikely to be achieved unless there is a much greater Government effort to promote recycling initiatives.

It is interesting to look at the reasons why those people did not involve themselves in the recycling to which they gave their support. Thirty-seven per cent. said that it was due to a lack of collection points--that if there were a convenient collection point near their home they would use it. Either they did not know of a collection point or those that they knew of were inconvenient, distant, or out of the way. Twenty-five per cent.--I know that this can be a problem, particularly for those who live in high- rise flats and small homes--said that they did not have enough space to store things. I must admit that my trips to my local paper and bottle recycling banks tend to be infrequent. Consequently, when I go there I take about half a tonne of paper and a bootful of bottles of various descriptions. Therefore, I sympathise with those who say that they do not have enough space to store things. My own recyclable materials use up a considerable amount of storage space before I am able to take them to the banks.

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Ten per cent. said that to separate items for collection was too much trouble. That reflects the experience of local authorities which have been involved in kerbside collection schemes. In those areas, about 70 to 80 per cent. of the people use the facilities provided. Finally, 8 per cent. said that they did not have time to get involved. The survey shows that there is a fair wind blowing for the Government if they want to take more initiatives to encourage recycling. Given the considerable number of references in this debate to reusable containers, it is interesting to note that 54 per cent. are in favour of a money-back scheme and that most of them favour a deposit-led system.

Despite the Government's excellent target, their record is, unfortunately, not very good compared with that of other European Community countries. We are close to the bottom of the class when it comes to recycling glass and paper, two of the major items that can be recycled. When I sought information from the Government about the current recycling lists, the Secretary of State for Scotland hazarded an estimated 2 per cent. The Department of the Environment was excessively generous to itself when it said that it was certainly no more than 5 per cent.

The Welsh Office was so afraid of the reality that it declined to give a figure. Much needs to be done if we are to move from the figure that most experts agree to be about 2.5 per cent. to the 25 per cent. Government target for the year 2000.

I was almost dumbfounded to read in Hansard a short while ago a reply from the Department of the Environment to my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes), who asked a question about a report compiled by the Institution of Civil Engineers and the Association of Municipal Engineers that was issued midway through last year and was entitled, "Recycling Household Waste : the Way Ahead." The Government's reply was that they regarded the report as a useful contribution. I consider that to be an understatement as that extremely valuable report was drawn up by experts and pointed the way ahead. The report stated that, if the 25 per cent. target was to be met, there was a need for households to separate recyclables, the Government to take more initiatives--particularly to provide further financial support--disposal authorities to change their role and become mainly reclamation authorities, measures to be taken to ensure that industry favoured recycled feedstock, packaging to be minimised and recycled products preferred. With the combination of those factors we would see the end of the throw-away society.

The institution and the association, in a typically humble way, stated that their report should be regarded not as a set of recommendations to form the be-all and end-all of achieving the targets, but as a list of matters for consideration in developing new policies and techniques, and expanded public services. The report was sent to more than 500 local authorities, of which slightly more than half--258--responded. The result of the survey was that the majority of authorities carried out some sort of recycling, but that the amount of material recycled as a percentage of household waste was exceedingly small. For glass, paper and cans, the amount recycled was less than 1 per cent. of all household waste.

The figures for local authorities that recycled specific materials show that 80 per cent. had schemes for recycling and collecting glass, 33 per cent. had schemes for cans, 45 per cent. had schemes for paper, 2 per cent. had schemes for plastic, 37 per cent. had schemes for metals, 29 per

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cent. had schemes for oils, 2 per cent. had schemes for construction waste and 1 per cent. had schemes for compostables. Friends of the Earth also conducted a survey to which it received a higher response than did that carried out by the institution and the association. It showed similar, although on the whole slightly better, collection and recycling activities by local authorities. The figures were : glass 89 per cent., cans 48 per cent., paper 55 per cent., plastic 9 per cent., metal 17 per cent., oils 46 per cent., compostables 5 per cent. and for textiles, for which the institution's and association's report gave no figure, 17 per cent. For household goods, it gave a figure of 3 per cent. and 5.5 per cent. for wood.

The target to which everyone refers is that set out by the Government in section 14.23 of "This Common Inheritance". They set the challenging target --that is what they called it--of recycling half of recyclable household waste by the end of the century. That is about 25 per cent. of all household waste. The institution and association said that that would require a supportive marketplace and local initiatives for low-cost schemes and would require industry to finance new productive processes. They said that the Government's willingness to support such measures was fundamental to the development of new initiatives.

The Government are still rather coy and even complacent in their attitude. In a reply to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Ms. Primarolo), the Government said : "there is no point in setting up comprehensive recycling schemes if there is no market for the materials collected."--[ Official Report, 13 May 1992 ; Vol. 207, c. 126. ]

That is true, but, as the Government proved with unleaded petrol, they can take initiatives to ensure that there is a market, in this case for the materials collected.

The Government also said that their preferred approach is for industry to come up with recycling initiatives that will stand the test of time in the free market. Of course, they did not wait for industry to come up with initiatives in the petrol market but took the initiatives themselves. I suggest that they should be taking a similar initiative in recycling to ensure that the necessary market is created. The Government have made a start in paper recycling, but there are many potentially recyclable materials which need a steady market.

In considering the achievement of the 25 per cent. target set by the Government, the institution and the association wanted to ensure that, in the long term, local authorities could achieve it without incurring an increase in service costs for the collection and disposal of household waste.

Mr. Tony Banks : Is my hon. Friend able to clear up the mystery of the 25 per cent. or 50 per cent. target? There was an exchange between the Minister and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Ms. Lynne) about whether the target for the year 2000 is 25 per cent. or 50 per cent. of domestic waste. Does my hon. Friend know which it is? The Minister clearly does not, and I think that my hon. Friend could win a few brownie points if he could cut the Gordian knot, so to speak, and explain to ignorant Back Benchers exactly what the Government's target is.

Mr. Griffiths : The answer is that there is an element of both. The 25 per cent. figure is the target for all household waste. The 50 per cent. creeps in because it is the target for

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the part of household waste which is regarded as recyclable. I hope that that has explained the matter satisfactorily.

The institution and the association see the target as a means of conserving natural resources, of saving energy in production and transport, or reducing pollution risks and of saving costs from pollution. Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Blaby, referred to the landfill problems of leachates and methane gas. The more recycling there is, the less pressure is put on landfill space. It is also argued that, because of energy savings, there can be a reduction in production costs for goods using recyclable material. For local authorities, there can be a reduction in collection and disposal costs compared with present costs.

The association and the institution are wholly confident that, if the Government accepted a number of specific measures, the target of 25 per cent. would be easily realisable. The evidence from schemes in Leeds, Adur, Milton Keynes and Cardiff points to the fact that the only real way to meet the target is to have kerbside collections in which there has been some separation. Some separation is essential, although it is for authorities to decide exactly how much they will demand. The experience of all the authorities is that households have responded enthusiastically to kerbside collection schemes. Another essential is a market for the sale of all recycled material. That can best be secured by every operator having as his first priority a recycling strategy. Local authorities giving contracts for waste disposal should require the contractors to co-ordinate the activities of recycling as a principal task. Provisions should be written into the contracts about the amount of material that is to be retained and recycled. Eventually, companies should undertake the reprocessing and marketing of recyclable materials almost as if they were commercial commodity brokers. The most successful authorities have themselves--or sometimes in association with others--medium or long-term contracts for the materials that they collect. The local authority in Milton Keynes has combined with expertise from a private company in America and experts from Shanks and McEwan to establish a new recycling facility that will be at the heart of the authority's programme to ensure that it reaches the Government's target by the year 2000. The authority is confident that it will reach that target.

The steps that the Government have already taken in the paper sector to encourage the development of a market for waste paper are fundamental. As several hon. Members have said, on occasion there has been chaos in the paper market. Local authorities and voluntary organisations have achieved a reasonable price for selling waste paper into the market one day, but on other occasions they have virtually had to pay someone to take the paper away. As the hon. Member for Rochdale explained, on occasion the position is so bad that a large amount of the paper is thrown into landfill and does nothing to improve the psychology of recycling.

Because of the huge returns that are possible in the paper market--the Government forecast that 1 million tonnes of extra capacity is possible, although that may be optimistic--a huge amount of paper will be available for

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recycling. If the Government were to provide even more help than they are providing now, we could take a significant step forward in that area.

There is the potential to double the amount of coloured glass that is currently recycled. Problems about clear and coloured glass have been referred to. They could be overcome through better colour separation at collection. Greater efforts need to be taken to collect colourless glass. The Government, and particularly the advertising industry and supermarkets, could do more to encourage the public to accept coloured glass. The problem about the amount of glass that is wasted annually is the way in which supermarkets have not been prepared to accept returnables because they clutter up planning and storage space. The problem has nothing to do with the public dramatically and suddenly saying that they do not want drinks delivered in glass containers.

Mr. Robathan : While I approve of the hon. Gentleman's interest in the matter and delight in his support for my comments, I am sure that he would not mind my saying that he is recycling a few phrases from the debate. While I approve of multi-trip containers, multi-trip comments are a little too much.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Order. That is for the Chair to judge.

Mr. Griffiths : The issue is so important that the Opposition must place on the record exactly what we believe must be done. I do not believe that the role of the supermarkets has been discussed too much in respect of the move away from refillable containers.

There is huge scope for recycling much more plastic. Two million tonnes of non-food plastic is manufacturered in the United Kingdom. At least half a million tonnes of it could easily be absorbed into the recycling process. There is also huge scope in respect of aluminium and ferrous metals. In the past decade, there has actually been a reduction in the amount of some metals that have been recycled. The Government should examine that aspect.

The association and the institution reckon that it will take about £170 million a year to set up kerbside collection schemes and all the proper facilities for recycling. They offered one or two suggestions about how that might be done. There could be a packaging levy of 25p, which would raise £150 million, and a levy on newsprint. The Government are examining certain fiscal measures. I was surprised by the Minister's comment that they are awaiting reports to see whether anything further needs to be done. They should wait for the reports to see exactly what further action they need to take, because there is no doubt in my mind or in the minds of people who are closely connected with the problems of recycling that further Government action, including fiscal instruments, is needed.

The Friends of the Earth survey concurred with the view that kerbside collection would be essential. It also pointed out that the cost of setting up and running recycling collections is the major problem seen by local authorities. As the hon. Member for Rochdale pointed out, one of the Government's own officials, John Barton, recognised that we will need a form of houshold collection system and further Government support. It was a pity that, on 27 April, when the Minister announced the 25 per cent. increase in recycling investment, he said that he was reluctant to approve new kerbside schemes until he had the

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final results of the pilot. Given the survey of the institution and the association and all the information that they already have about pilot schemes, it is clear that the kerbside collection method will be the most effective way forward.

Recycling credits are a good idea, but undoubtedly one of the major problems is the low cost of landfill. The average cost in the Friends of the Earth survey is just over £10 a tonne. I do not believe that that reflects the real cost of a properly managed landfill site. It will be interesting that, when the EC directive finally sees the light of day, when measures to deal with leachates and the post-management of a site in terms of methane gas are considered, with the possible civil liability on people managing a site for perhaps 30 or 50 years after, there will be a huge increase in the cost of landfill, which will make recycling immensely more attractive. I hope that during their presidency of the European Community the Government will push that measure forward so that at an early stage we can re-evaluate the cost of landfill and allow recycling to become effective.

I fear to mention the problems of packaging, given the admonition of the hon. Member for Blaby, but it is a vital point. The Minister referred to the problems that could be caused if the countries of the European Community acted separately. As it is, they have different legislation. In Denmark refillable bottles are mandatory for domestic production of beer and carbonated soft drinks. For imports a deposit, return and recycling system must be set up which has an equivalent effect. There is an absolute ban on beverage cans.

Luxembourg has introduced legislation that will provide for mandatory deposits for refillable bottles, taxes on non-refillable bottles and the possibility of limiting or banning the sale of packaging that presents a danger to the environment. France is introducing laws based on the German system, which is the bane of packagers throughout the European Community. That system has been referred to in some detail. I hope that the Government will support a solution based on the German system because, even though well-meaning initiatives have been taken by the Retail Consortium, the Industry Council for Packaging and the Environment and various other bodies involved in packaging, the only effective actionwill come when rules and regulations are introduced to govern it.

The Government's study on returnable deposit containers was outlined--I do not know whether it was officially or unofficially--in the "Warmer Bulletin". The report pointed out that compulsory deposit schemes in Denmark, Norway and Switzerland worked well, that product taxes targeting non-reusable containers worked in Finland and Sweden, and that voluntary agreements with industry backed by legislative threats worked in the Netherlands. Overall, the use of deposits was found to be a more than satisfactory way of tackling the problem of throwaway containers.

Following its survey, Friends of the Earth made several recommendations which have been Labour party policy for some years. It concluded that the Government should create markets and stimulate demand for reclaimed materials and that measures should be taken to include setting minimum standards for the content of recycled materials in certain goods. It also recommended obligatory preferential purchase of recycled materials by public bodies and specific sectors of industry.

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Friends of the Earth also said that the Government should promote an integrated approach to waste management which should cover raw materials, manufacturing process and the design and use of products, and that priority should be given to the operation and design of processes and products to minimise waste and facilitate the reclamation of materials. Lastly, it recommended that fiscal and other measures should be introduced to encourage industry to increase its commitment to recycling and that tax relief should be provided for the capital costs of recycling plants.

All those recommendations have been Labour policy for some time. Long before charters became fashionable with the Government, we had a recycling charter. The charter says that we should minimise the production of waste products and products that cannot be reused or repaired ; we should encourage the manufacture of products that can be reused ; we should ensure that, if possible, whatever cannot be reused is recycled ; products that cannot be recycled should be used productively ; and any residual waste should be disposed of in the safest possible manner. We would use the tax system to provide incentives to achieve those objectives.

Another important objective for the Government during their presidency which would have the full support of the Opposition would be to ensure that the eco-labelling scheme comes into existence. Once established, it should be encouraged through preferential VAT rates, just as the use of unleaded fuel is encouraged through lower excise duty.

Labour local authorities have been pioneering work on recycling. Camden council in London and the councils in Sheffield, Newcastle, Leicester, Leeds, Cardiff, Brighton, Oxford and Milton Keynes are all in the forefront of the battle to ensure that products are recycled, and to achieve the desire of the hon. Member for Blaby for increased recycling, minimisation of waste and the development of returnable bottles and containers. Labour supports all those objectives. 1.21 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I join other hon. Members in thanking the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) for choosing such a riveting and important subject for his first speech in the House. He is obviously blessed with good fortune to be able to win in a ballot-- something that many Opposition Members who have been here for years would kill for.

Mr. Robathan : But not at cards.

Mr. Tony Banks : Then I suggest that he take up cards as soon as possible, because it is a considerable achievement to win the ballot shortly after coming to the House, and to use it to make one's maiden speech. I defer to him in that respect. We well remember his predecessor-- the glowering presence of Nigel Lawson--especially when he sat on the Back Benches.

Mr. Lawson's translation to the House of Lords is a perfect example of political recycling, though one does not know whether he will receive such a warm welcome from the former Prime Minister, the Lady Thatcher. In the twilight of his career he was being treated more like a piece of hazardous waste than a treasured political item. To conclude on that subject, I hope that in choosing her title, the Lady Thatcher will go for something in the east

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end of London, where we know a lot about hazardous waste. Perhaps she should call herself Baroness Barking, because I have always wanted to refer to her as the Lady Barking. I thought that would be a most appropriate title for her.

It is also appropriate that the hon. Member for Blaby has chosen to debate recycling. Perhaps he knows something we do not. I understand that His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales is making a speech on waste management today. Perhaps the hon. Member is one of many Members of Parliament who apparently advise the Prince of Wales on day-to-day matters.

What surprises me is that so few Tory Members have joined in the debate. I expected to find it difficult to get in today as I thought many of them would wish to speak. Perrhaps they are ashamed of the Government's record. If that is so they are right to be ashamed. The Government have created vast quantities of waste.

Mr. James Pawsey (Rugby and Kenilworth) : It is not because we are ashamed of the Government's record on this or any other matter, but simply because we are proud of their record on education and would have welcomed an opportunity to debate choice in education, which is the second subject tabled for debate today.

Mr. Banks : Who knows, if the hon. Gentleman is nice to me and my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) we may even reach the second motion. Perhaps we will reach it a bit quicker if the hon. Gentleman does not intervene again.

We are all big people in the House now and we know what we are trying to do. Yes, there will be an opportunity. The hon. Member for Croydon, North- East (Mr. Congdon), who is sitting nervously on the edge of his seat waiting to make his first speech, can rest assured that he will get that opportunity. I know how he feels. I must tell him that he will continue to feel as nervous as he undoubtedly does now, even when he has made a few more speeches. That is how I feel and how one should always feel. One should never stand up in this place and assume that one can pontificate and everyone will listen with great attention. One should always be humble enough to recognise that there are always many hon. Members who know a damn sight more than oneself about any subject than one cares to talk about. There is not a less appreciative audience than that made up of Members waiting for one to sit down so that they can make their speech. They are not receptive, so I shall not delay the House.

I was talking about the Government's waste production. They should ensure that all these citizens charters are printed on recyclable paper. There was the ridiculous incident of British Rail announcing that a train was running late because of blockages on the line caused by discarded heaps of rail users charters. We must be aware that we produce vast quantities of paper in this place. All of it should be on recyclable paper. That is essential. I know that the Department of the Environment has been looking closely at the matter.

I always said that I would never start a speech with the words, "When I was a lad". I used to hate it when Members started in that way and then banged on about how life was so much better decades previously. I thought

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that that was so boring. As on many other matters in my time in the House, I have retreated from my previous principled position and I shall start in that way.

The Minister questioned whether returnable bottles and recyclable containers were necessarily the most efficient way of disposing of waste or of producing packaging. When I was a kid I earned quite a packet taking back empty lemonade and beer bottles to the off licence. Indeed, I earned so much that I was called the Bernard Docker of Brixton. I had my own customised pedal car--would you believe it, Mr. Deputy Speaker? It was a Delarge. The House can see from that how much money I was making from returning those Tizer bottles. I remember "Tizer the Appetiser" and, yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so do you. I believe it is still being produced, but in plastic bottles. Tizer, like ginger beer, came with its own attached top, which meant that the whole lot went back to the sweet shop. That is a good example of why we do not necessarily have to look elsewhere in the world for ideas, although it is a good thing to do so ; we can look back to what we did previously to see what sort of containers we should bring back into use today. One of the few bottles now to have the flip top or the top still attached can be bought downstairs in the Bar. It contains Grolsch beer. It is far too heavy a brew for me. Certainly, it is far more lethal than Tizer. It is a retrograde step that so few bottles now have such tops.

I am appalled, as we all are, by the amount of material wasted on packaging. We all have our own particular hates in this area. What I hate most are those polystyrene foam pellets--the ones that look rather like prawn crackers and, I am reliably informed, taste better. They are packed round electrical equipment. Even Her Majesty's Stationery Office uses those horrible little pellets when it sends out books. They appal me. Apart from anything else, they are wholly indestructible. Such packaging materials are unacceptable. Plastic holders for six-packs of cans annoy me. Has anyone seen the damage that they do to sea birds that get their beaks caught up in them? We discard plastics into the sea. One sees ships dumping things at sea and rubbish is blown into the sea. When people go on holiday they take plastic bottles of water that end up in the sea. Turtles think that that plastic trash is jelly fish. Of course, because they eat jelly fish, they eat the plastic and it kills them. It is inconsiderate actions, such as leaving plastic filth on beaches--or on the streets, as many people do in my constituency--that annoy me so intensely. People do not think through the consequences of their actions.

It is essential that we reach a pan-European accord on waste disposal. If one looks at the Mediterranean, which, fortunately, I hope to do on my two- week holiday in August, one can see just how much trash is put into that beautiful sea. Greece has a poor record on waste disposal and recycling. I hope that the Minister will constantly draw that to the attention of the Greek Government so that they look more attentively at waste disposal in their beautiful country. Greece relies on tourism, but tourists are put off when they see the filth that litters the beautiful countryside on islands such as Crete. A pan-European accord is important.

Mr. Miller : My hon. Friend has given a more graphic and eloquent account of the distasteful use, and disposal of plastic than my example of McDonalds. However, I am sure that we are driving at the same point. Does my hon.

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Friend agree that the plastics industry and the manufacturers of polyethylene need to be encouraged to find more diverse uses for plastics and, in particular, to discover ways of recycling plastics? To achieve those ends, the industry will need direct help and encouragement from the Government to assist it with research and development.

Mr. Banks : I agree with my hon. Friend. However, McDonalds has a better record of clearing up the litter outside its restaurants than many fast-food outlets. However, I am one of those who think one has a more enjoyable dinner if one eats the container rather than the hamburger. But that is a matter of personal preference.

It is possible to make plastic biodegradable, but that requires much investment in research and development and makes packaging more expensive. The Minister must--to use a horrible and vulgar phrase--establish "a level playing field". If all packaging becomes biodegradable, the cost to the consumer will increase. I accept that. However, it means also that the producers all face equal costs. In those circumstances, the industry will be unable to argue, as some Ministers do, "We like to be on the side of the good, but unless everyone joins us, we shall be at a comparative disadvantage in terms of production." I see the monetarist argument in that and even though it excludes any consideration of morality, I understand it in cash-account terms. However, if we establish a level playing field, it will pay all manufacturers to ensure that their plastic packaging is biodegradable. I hope the Minister will push that point. I wish to consider the situation in the rest of Europe. In the collection of industrial societies that make up Europe, the role of consumers must be taken into account when we consider environmentally sound production methods. That relates to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller). When people are asked whether they would be prepared to buy

environmentally friendly products, most say yes. People are prepared to pay a higher price, if they know that what they are buying is environmentally friendly. However, the producers will have to face the same costs, which reinforces my earlier argument.

It is important for consumers to know more about goods. People want to know how they are produced and whether they are environmentally friendly. When the Minister was asked, in a humorous way, what type of washing-up liquid was used in his home, the question was not designed to embarrass him. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman is beyond embarrassment. A Minister who could make as many sexist points as he made could not possibly be embarrassed by such a question. If I were his wife--thank goodness I am not, and he is probably grateful that I am not--I would want a divorce, especially after reading the Official Report of what he said. I shall make sure that Mrs. Maclean gets a copy of Hansard in case the Minister tries to hide his words from her. Frankly, he should be concerned about the information available on packages. He should be giving advice about whether a washing up liquid or soap powder is environmentally friendly.

Mr. Maclean : I should probably know better than to rise to the bait. On the final point that the hon. Gentleman makes, he may know that on Wednesday, in answering questions on the environment, I told the hon. Member for

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Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) that we intend to have the eco-labelling scheme up and ready as soon as possible. We urge the rest of the EC to be on target. There will then be a whole range of products bearing environmentally friendly labels.

Mr. Banks : I look forward to that time, as, no doubt, does Mrs. Maclean. Then she will know precisely what to buy and that there will be no fear of her flouting Conservative policies. I am sure that she is a jolly good and loyal Tory and would not dream of doing so. The Minister said that the Government were giving encouragement to other European countries. Some of those countries have already introduced special labels, such as the "Blue Angel" label in Germany, which, I am reliably informed, indicates the green quality of a product.

Warning signs in industry--for example, applying to traffic and transportation--are international and used everywhere. Everyone recognises precisely the articles to which they apply. We should have a similar, internationally recognised eco-labelling system throughout the European Community. Such a move would be welcomed by hon. Members in all parts of the House.

Labels that are placed on products should meet certain conditions--first that the raw materials used are environmentally sound and can be recycled ; secondly, that the production methods used are sustainable and healthy to the workers who packed and produced the items ; thirdly, that the packaging is either returnable, perhaps on the payment of a deposit, or is recyclable ; fourthly, that the product and its use does not damage environmental health ; fifthly, that the price is fair compared with other products ; and sixthly, that the energy consumption in production and use is minimised. I hope that the Minister will insist on those standards when discussing the eco-labelling system.

We need in this country consumer legislation similar to the Right To Know Act in the United States. Although the Americans have produced the majority of the world's waste, they have led the way, in many areas, in recycling and the manufacture of environmentally friendly products.

People in Sweden have for more than 150 years had the right to gain access to information about their neighbourhoods. That has covered information about, for example, the use of natural resources such as air, water and emissions, and has led to the more economic use of such articles in production and to more awareness by consumers when purchasing products.

There is a great willingness in Britain by consumers to play their part. As I said, the people in the population who appear to be most concerned are the elderly and the young, the elderly because they can remember the deprivation of the war and immediate post-war period. Resources were scarce and there was a greater degree of social responsibility towards products, their use and disposal.

Today, the young are greatly concerned because they are realising more and more that they will inherit a polluted world. It is encouraging to visit schools, talk to children in class and see the way in which, as part of the curriculum, teachers are creating lessons that encourage youngsters to be more socially responsible and environmentally conscious. Today's youngsters matter. They will ensure that the world, which our generation and generations before us polluted to such a dangerous extent, will be a safer and cleaner place.

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We can achieve that, even if belatedly. I was glad about Rio. There have been many criticisms and I had many criticisms to make about Rio, but I pay tribute to the Prime Minster, who was prepared to be the first world leader to go to Rio. It is vital to place environmental issues at the cutting edge of political decision making. I do not begrudge the Prime Minister his photo-opportunities. I would do the same, were I to hold such an elevated position--

Mr. Maclean : No.

Mr. Banks : The Minister says no, but he does not know much anyway. He does not even know which washing-up liquid he uses so how can he know whether I shall be Prime Minister?

It was important to get environmental issues on the agenda because they encourage people to think in an environmentally friendly way.

Mr. Win Griffiths : My hon. Friend referred to washing-up liquid. So that the Minister does not feel that he is being singled out, may I tell him that I do the family shopping and we use down to earth washing-up liquid. It is completely satisfactory, healthy and recyclable in every way.

Mr. Banks : My hon. Friend is a veritable saint. He is the ideal partner and, were his wife to throw him out, he would be welcome to live with me and Mrs. Banks because he would be the perfect house guest. That is another reason why I want him to become Environment Minister in the next Labour Government. He is a paragon of virtue. I had many more points to make, but the ball game, like many things in politics, changed somewhat and I am conscious of the time. I shall conclude on just a few notes about my local authority, Newham. I have never been mealy-mouthed about the people that I represent, but some of them are the filthiest people on earth. I assume that those must be the few Tory voters in my constituency--but perhaps they are not. When I go out in Forest Gate every morning I see trash discarded the night before, despite the fact that the local authority has installed bins at regular intervals. People often kick the bins over. It is appalling how anti-social some of the people I represent are, and I am sure that that is the view of many hon. Members when they look at their constituencies. We idealise our constituents, but I am damned if I shall idealise the filthy people who trash up my constituency. We must pursue such people.

Although local authorities have been given various powers to fine litter louts, the Minister knows that they do not work. We must ensure that the fines imposed are swingeing and that local authorities step up their street patrols. It is easy to sit down and devise the steps that need to be taken, but the Government must give assurances about the resources that will be available. Local authorities are regularly kicked in this House, almost exclusively by Conservative Members. Yet local authorities are the units of government that affect the day-to-day lives of the great mass of our population. The Government give them more and more tasks while, at the same time, taking away more and more resources from them. It is fine to tell local authorities that they are the primary units responsible for waste disposal and ask them for their plans

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for achieving 25 per cent. recyclable domestic waste by the year 2000, but local authorities want to know what help the Government will provide for set-up costs.

The Minister mentioned the recycling credit system. If I can catch his attention while a discussion is going on over the crutch of his hon. Friend with feet on the Table, I wish to ask him to pay heed to the fact that the credit system must be looked at. Many local authorities, including mine, and businesses, say that it is a bureaucratic nightmare. The Minister said that he will monitor the system, but I hope that he will pay careful attention to the various representations that I know he will receive about how the system works. My local authority wants to recycle as much as it possibly can. Last year, 700 tonnes of waste were collected in Newham for recycling. That has to be put in context. My authority collects about 80,000 tonnes of refuse a year, so less than 1 per cent. of Newham's waste is recycled. The rest of it goes to the local waste disposal authorities and the bulk of it is sent to landfill sites in Essex. There are so many things that we want to do in Newham. I am the first to say that it is not the most beautiful spot on earth. How I envy Tory MPs who get up and talk about the rural delights of their constituencies--the green trees, the parks and so on. Unfortunately, that is not true of inner-city constituencies, particularly constituencies such as mine. However, we are trying hard to create a better environment in Newham and to make it a nicer place in which to live. We want to meet the Government's objective by the year 2000, but to do so we want as much encouragement as possible from the Government. We are prepared to sit down with Ministers and work out schemes.

Adur council in West Sussex has an excellent record. In The Independent today there is a wonderful article about Adur council. It ought to be widely recognised that Adur council is doing its best and that it is the leading local authority in the whole of Europe. I believe that it is controlled by the Liberal Democrats. I do not care who it is controlled by, but that is one local authority doing an excellent job. I want that excellent job to be replicated throughout the local authority structure. However, as Adur council officials will say, "Recycling is not a cheap exercise ; the setting-up costs are very expensive." Everyone praises those councils that do it, including the Minister. However, he must always be aware that when we say that we want more resources it is not just a knee- jerk reaction. The Minister knows from his studies that recycling does not come cheap in the short term. In the long term it is invaluable. I ask the Government to look at local authority projects in the long term and to make sure that the necessary funding is there so that when we have a debate such as this in 20 or 30 years' time when one or two of us, though not me, will still be around, they will say that they remember the great day when the Minister announced these various proposals and that it was the speech of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West that started it all off.

1.46 pm

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