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T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 27 APRIL 1992]
FORTY-FIRST YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 210
FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1992-93
House of Commons
1. Mr. Hain : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the impact of the recession (a) on Wales and (b) on Neath.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : The transformation of the Welsh economy over recent years has left it well placed to weather the effects of the recession. All the indications are that the future prospects for the Welsh economy are very good indeed.
Mr. Hain : Is the Secretary of State aware that the recession is creating a terrible housing crisis in Wales? People come to my surgeries in tears. One young woman sleeps with her 14-month-old baby on the living room floor of her parents' home because there is nowhere else for her. In another case, two adults, four children and another couple--a total of eight people--live in a three-bedroomed house. Those problems could be solved at a stroke if the Secretary of State would release £500,000 from housing capital receipts funds in Wales and let councils build houses that are so desperately needed. Does the Secretary of State not care about those human tragedies?
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Mr. Hunt : To put the matter in perspective, the number of housing units built in Wales in the past 10 years has risen by 8 per cent., whereas the population has risen by just over 2 per cent. We are putting increased resources into housing. As the hon. Gentleman will know, Housing for Wales is now building a record number of homes and the prospects are very good.
Mr. Sweeney : Will my right hon. Friend welcome the opening by the Cabot factory in Barry of the new silica fume plant, one of the most modern in Europe?
Mr. Hunt : Yes, and I was glad that my hon. Friend could be with me on that important occasion--a £48 million investment, promising a state-of-the-art factory and tremendous prospects for the future. Following that opening, the opening of Revlon at Maesteg last week, and the announcement about Northern Telecom, I am glad to announce today an industrial investment package of £28 million involving the planned creation of more than 814 new jobs. I am delighted to make that announcement, which comes as another tremendous boost for Wales.
Mr. Barry Jones : May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that unemployment stands at 124,000 and is rising, and that last year 5, 500 manufacturing jobs were lost in Wales? Does not the Chancellor's decision to scrap the National Economic Development Council call into question the whole future of the Secretary of State's planned Welsh economic council? Did the Chancellor consult the right hon. Gentleman before he made his statement?
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman is absolutely wrong. Our plans for the Welsh economic council continue and we shall shortly issue a consultation paper. On unemployment, the figures for the hon. Gentleman's constituency show that in July 1986, 4,274 people were unemployed ; in June 1987, the figure had fallen to 3,689 ; in April 1992, it had fallen to 2,923 ; and last month, it fell again to 2, 855. The prospects for his constituency and for Wales are very good.
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Mr. Richards : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, were it not for the Government's policies, the impact of the world recession on Wales would have been far more severe?Mr. Hunt : I am delighted that my hon. Friend asks me that question, because we have seen a transformation of Wales in the past 10 years. The offers of regional assistance accepted by employers since 1979 are forecast to save more than 50,000 jobs in Wales and to create more than 100,000 new jobs. The transformation of Wales has secured its future.
Mr. Gareth Wardell : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will examine the waiting times for approved home adaptations for the disabled in each local authority in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : Local councils must deal with all applications for disablefacilities grants within six months of receiving them.
Mr. Wardell : As renovation grants and adaptation grants for the disabled are usually mandatory under the Housing Acts, why has the Welsh Office discriminated against disabled people by transferring the funding of those mandatory grants from the special credit allowance to the basic credit allowance? That change of policy has effectively ended the ringfencing of a vulnerable group in society. Does not that mean that elderly and disabled people throughout Wales look forward with trepidation to the implementation of the Community Care Act next year?
Mr. Jones : I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that there have been no changes to the regulations ; the disabled facilities grants remain mandatory. The policy changes give local councils far more flexibility, which is necessary as they need to consider all the options in order to respond effectively. In the current year we have provided £26.3 million to deal with disabled facilities and other grants, compared with last year's expenditure of a little over £7 million.
Mr. Wigley : Does not the Minister understand that local authorities in Wales face a crisis which has a knock-on effect for disabled people? Until 31 March, work to renovate houses to an acceptable standard and the installation of disabled facilities was possible in most districts, and the money spent was refunded. Now, as that refunding has come to an end, it is not possible to bring houses for disabled people up to acceptable standards. Disabled people will have to live in dampness and poverty for years to come unless we revert to the original policy.
Mr. Jones : As I have explained, we have substantially increased the funding for disabled facilities grants to £26.3 million compared with a little over £7 million. We have made a generous increase in allocation of £80 million for all mandatory home renovation grants, bringing the total figure to £143 million.
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3. Mr. Michael : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of county councils in Wales to discuss continuity and quality of local government services in Wales.
Mr. Michael : Does the Secretary of State agree that the two prime requirements for quality of services are, first, democratic accountability through the ballot box and, secondly, continuity so that people know where they are? Do the Government intend to introduce legislation before the recess to cancel or delay next year's county council elections or are they to allow the doubt and confusion to continue?
Mr. Hunt : The question about holding elections has been asked of me by the local authority associations, but it is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, not me. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman and, more particularly, his hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) could give the Labour party's view on holding county council elections next year. It would also be helpful for other parties to do so, as they would aid my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and me in reaching a decision-- [Interruption.] It is no use the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) shouting at me--he is still the young pretender and has not yet taken over from his hon. Friend. I should warn him about what they used to do to young pretenders in medieval times--the same fate may well await him.
Mr. Alex Carlile : When the Secretary of State met council representatives, was he aware of the importance of the trading standards and consumer protection service as the last line of defence between the public and unscrupulous traders? How does he expect a uniformly high standard of consumer protection to be administered throughout Wales after local government reform?
Mr. Hunt : I am determined that a high standard should be maintained. I have been greatly assisted in that objective by the fact that we have now been able to establish a number of sub-groups on the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance, whose members include representatives of county and district councils, as well as the Welsh Office. I want those sub-groups to work out the best possible way to deliver the services, with the best quality, once we have the new unitary authorities.
4. Mr. Roger Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress he has made in establishing a youth agency for Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : I am pleased to announce that the Wales Youth Agency was established with effect from 1 April this year. The appointment of Mr. Gerald Davies as chairman and Dr. Howard Williamson as vice-chairman was announced on 16 March. Other appointments will be made shortly.
The agency is the successor body to the Wales youth work partnership. It is funded by the Welsh Office under
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the powers conferred by the Education Act 1944. It is expected to be fully operational by the autumn. Its grant in 1992-93 will be about £360,000.Mr. Evans : Will my right hon. Friend assist us with an outline of the functions of this agency and what he sees as its principal purposes?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The agency will have three main functions. The first is to secure an effective partnership between all the agencies involved in youth work. Secondly, it will provide training for youth workers and ensure that they are well informed. Its third function will be to ensure that the aspirations of Welsh youth are expressed, and realised if possible. The ultimate aim of the agency will be to improve the quality of life for our young people.
Mr. Llew Smith : What proportion of the youths who are now leaving school are finding employment in Wales?
Sir Wyn Roberts : About 61 per cent. of our young people do not leave school and go to work, partly because we encourage them to stay on at school as we want them to receive further education and training. As for those who go on to training, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that a significant proportion leave training to go to work in due course.
5. Mr. Ainger : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much money (a) in cash and (b) as a percentage of the Welsh total, will be spent on trunk roads in Dyfed in the financial years 1992-93, 1993-94 and 1994-95 ; and if he will make a statement.
Sir Wyn Roberts : Central Government provision for roads and transport in Wales in 1992-93 is £197 million. An analysis by county is not available, as the programme is subject to changing engineering, statutory and financial considerations.
Provision for 1993-94 and 1994-95 will be announced in due course.
Mr. Ainger : Is the Minister aware that the analysis by Dyfed county council shows that less than 6 per cent. of the capital from the Welsh Office is spent on the 24 per cent. of the road network of Wales that lies within the county? Is he aware that all the local authorities and the members of the task force on whose strategy team the Secretary of State sits identify the fact that west Wales has serious problems with its road communications? Is he further aware that his answer is wholly inadequate, as are the sums allocated to road communications in west Wales?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Although I do not deny the county council's figures, I should point out that they vary from year to year. In 1990-91, about £22.6 million was spent on motorways and trunk roads in Dyfed-- 12.6 per cent. of the total spent in Wales. I do not know why the county council should complain. There are nine trunk road schemes in the pipeline for Dyfed, costing about £81 million--five of them to be started before 1995 and four before 1998.
As for expenditure on roads, the hon. Gentleman will know that our expenditure on the M4, in particular on the Baglan-Lonlas section in west Wales, will greatly benefit life there.
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6. Mr. Jonathan Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on designating new environmentally sensitive areas in Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. David Hunt : I am pleased to announce the designation of four new ESAs--Radnor and Anglesey by the end of this year, and Preseli and the Clwydian range by the end of next.
Mr. Evans : Is my right hon. Friend aware that his announcement will be very welcome in Radnor and, I hope, in Ynys Mo n, which is represented by the hon. Member for Ynys Mo n (Mr. Jones)? Does my right hon. Friend agree that his announcement, when coupled with the common agriculture policy reform package announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, recognises the role of farmers in caring for our countryside? Will my right hon. Friend also confirm that adequate funding will be made available to back the ESA scheme so that farmers are encouraged to join it voluntarily?
Mr. Hunt : Yes. First, may I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who made strong representations-- [Interruption.] I could stop there--on the importance of placing Radnor as a high priority in the designation of new ESAs? I agree that it is important for those from towns and cities, who come to view the beautiful countryside, to recognise that it is mainly due to the farming community that they are able to benefit from it. However, they must also recognise that they must pay. Therefore, I have allocated £2.5 million to cover those agreements in the coming year.
Mr. Ron Davies : May I welcome the Secretary of State's announcement, as far as it goes? Now is the time to develop a far more ambitious and comprehensive system of countryside management. May I press him on two points? First, will the rates payable under the four schemes that the right hon. Gentleman has announced today bear at least some resemblance to the scales that applied in 1986? The Secretary of State will know that those scales have not been uprated and that they have been severely eroded by inflation. Secondly, is it not time to recognise that all farmers throughout Wales should be entitled to the payments, because that is one way to prevent the intolerable level of surpluses from increasing and, at the same time, compensating farmers for the losses that they will incur as a result of CAP reform?
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman's question contains many important points. I recognise that it is vital to ensure that we have the right level of payments. However, one must view that against the overall level of resources available and I believe that the scale of payments announced today will more than meet the present requirements. It is always important to keep an eye on all the various schemes operating throughout Wales. Tir Cymen, the countryside stewardship scheme, is another important one which is getting under way. National parks also play an important part in our strategy.
My announcement will mean that 24 per cent. of rural Wales will be covered by the new ESAs, which comes on top of the schemes for the Cambrian mountains and the extension of the scheme for the Lleyn peninsula. We must
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learn the lessons from all that when we decide on which way to proceed. However, I take on board the points that the hon. Gentleman has made.7. Mr. Murphy : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the level of tolls on the Severn bridge.
Sir Wyn Roberts : The Department has received some 54 letters about the level of tolls as provided for in the Severn Bridges Act 1992.
Mr. Murphy : Does the Minister agree with the RAC, which said a few days ago that hundreds of motorists make diversions of up to 60 miles in order to avoid paying the tolls on the Severn bridge? Does he also agree with the RAC that the small commercial vehicles that use the bridge should be placed in a different tolling category? Above all, does he agree that the position on the Severn bridge has become, as the RAC described it,"outrageous"? Is not it time that the Minister personally intervened not just for the sake of those who use the bridge but for the sake of the whole Welsh economy?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman makes a number of points. On the RAC survey, which suggests that vehicles are being diverted, the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that the record of the Severn bridge is one of steady growth in traffic. I believe that that growth will continue and that is why we are providing a second Severn bridge. When the hon. Gentleman refers to small vehicles, I presume that means light vans. There was an unintended ambiguity in the Severn Bridges Act 1992, which we have now sought to clarify with the Severn Bridges (Description of Vehicles) Order 1992. There cannot be a change from the provisions of that Act. My feeling is that matters have settled down since the change in the tolling regime at the bridge. We all look forward to the tolling regime providing the new bridge by spring 1996.
Mr. Sweeney : Does not fixing the level of toll at £2.80 make it more difficult to collect the money? Would not it be better to change £3, with a guarantee that it would be pegged at that level for a considerable time? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the present system of charging the owner of a light van who may be using it for private purposes considerably more than the owner of an ordinary car, which may weigh substantially more, is unjust?
Sir Wyn Roberts : My hon. Friend is suggesting going against the provisions of the Severn Bridges Act, which was passed by the House. In that Act, the tolling regime is fully provided for, not only now but for the future, until the new bridge is paid for. It also covers maintenance of the existing bridge, and there can be no change of that Act except by the will of the House.
8. Dr. Kim Howells : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the National Rivers Authority to discuss water quality in Wales.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : My right hon. Friend and his officials regularly have meetings with the chairman and
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officers of the National Rivers Authority to discuss water quality and other matters associated with the discharge of the authority's functions in Wales.Dr. Howells : The Minister's constituency shares a river with mine, the River Taff. If he is that confident about the quality of the water in the Taff, which I am not, does he agree that improvements to water quality should be speeded up, that we have treated our rivers for long enough as open sewers and that everyone who dumps effluent in the river, including Welsh Water, should be pursued ruthlessly by the NRA and fined? If he is, as he often says that he is, pleased with the improvement in water quality will he come to my constituency, where I promise that I will have my constituents line the banks of the River Taff to watch him take a running jump into it?
Mr. Jones : I think that I shall decline the hon. Gentleman's last offer, but I would go along with the general sentiment that he expresses. We all want to see further and continuing improvements. Already, there have been substantial improvements and 94 per cent. of river quality in Wales is at least of a good or fair standard, and that is a net improvement over the last time. I have also noticed that there has been a useful improvement--a significant population of migratory salmon and trout in the Taff--which I should like to see continue.
9. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new initiatives he plans to introduce to safeguard jobs in Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : My Department and the development agencies have in place a number of successful initiatives to safeguard jobs and create new ones.
Mr. Flynn : Does the Secretary of State regret the surrendering of the ownership of Inmos from the British to other Governments?
Mr. Hunt : Discussions are continuing with Inmos and the European Commission and we still hope that they will come to a successful conclusion, so the hon. Gentleman's question does not arise. I hope that he will take time to reflect on the announcements that I have been able to make today, because they have great significance for his area.
The 13 projects that have been backed by regional selective assistance--RSA --of more than £7 million include a major new project for Flexonics Automotive Ltd. at Crumlin, a new project for Vales Wiper Systems at Ystrad Mynach and another project that is being started by Electronics Manufacture and Test Ltd. at the Llantarnam park industrial estate. All these are good projects and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on them and realise that we are determined to continue to win new investment as well as taking every possible step to safeguarding existing investment.
Madam Speaker : Mr. Roger Evans-- [Interruption.] As I have such a choice of Evanses, I call Mr. Jonathan Evans.
Mr. Jonathan Evans : I am obliged, Madam Speaker.
May I say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that his announcement about jobs will be widely welcomed in the Principality, if not by the Labour party? In his role of job creation, did he have any part to play in job creation
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for the former Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas, who was recently elevated to a position in the other House? As for the safeguarding of jobs, is my right hon. Friend able to offer any advice to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones)?Mr. Hunt : First, I should make it clear to the Opposition parties that the Evanses reign supreme on the Government Benches. I do not want to comment especially on job creation, as I understand that it is a subject which divides one of the Opposition parties. I was personally delighted by the recognition given to the former Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside constantly preaches doom and gloom in the context of the Welsh economy, but the facts speak for themselves. We have had remarkable success. In the 12 months to April 1992, accepted RSA offers have safeguarded 4,868 jobs and created 8, 257 new ones.
Mr. Rowlands : Has the Secretary of State read the recent report of Mid Glamorgan county council, which shows a huge and growing jobs gap in the county? The area might attract 5,000 jobs during the decade, but even an extra 15,000 would only maintain the present high levels of unemployment. There is talk of convergence of the economies of the Twelve, but it seems that we cannot have convergence in the United Kingdom, or even in Wales between mid and south Glamorgan. Whatever the achievements that have resulted from the valleys initiative, is it not now time for a major new programme of positive discrimination in favour of valleys development to create a degree of convergence and to make up for the huge jobs gap which has been created and which is growing every day?
Mr. Hunt : I read the articles in the report to which the hon. Gentleman referred and I was struck by some of the inconsistencies. For example, it was stated that there had been no inward investment projects in the valleys in the past year, but I know that there have been 20 such projects. I was first told about the report last week when I was in Maesteg opening the new plant for Revlon, which will safeguard 370 jobs and create 188 new ones. The hon. Gentleman will know of the investment by Mayor Sakata and Artec in Merthyr. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we need constantly to pay attention to the valleys. That is exactly what my predecessor did in setting up the programme for the valleys. About £800 million will be available over the five years of a programme that has seen the largest land clearance programme in Europe, record levels of investment in factory building, substantial industrial support and urban renewals and many initiatives in training, health care and housing.
Mr. Ian Bruce : What is my right hon. Friend's assessment of the effectiveness of the Welsh Development Agency in bringing new jobs to Wales? If the agency's work is not welcomed by Opposition Members, perhaps it could come to Dorset and do the same wonderful job for my constituents as it has done for the constituencies of Opposition Members.
Mr. Hunt : The WDA does a remarkably good job in its Conservative form. I strongly support the inward investment work that it is doing. I hope that it will not seek
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to do the same for my hon. Friend's constituents, as that would militate against the impressive work that it is doing in Wales. I am sorry to bring my hon. Friend that sad news.Mr. Barry Jones : With the loss of 5,500 manufacturing jobs last year, is it not clear that Wales needs a much stronger regional policy? Will the Secretary of State pledge that, in the review of assisted area status, Wales will not lose out?
Mr. Hunt : That is not a matter for me, but I am determined to do everything possible to secure the future attractiveness of our country for jobs. On the hon. Gentleman's first point, has he not noticed that whereas unemployment in Wales has always been considerably above the United Kingdom average, last month's figures show that, for the first time in more than 70 years, unemployment in Wales is now below the United Kingdom average? That is a reflection of the transformation that has taken place.
10. Mr. Dafis : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales who in his Department has been appointed to oversee and develop green issues ; how many civil servants have been allocated new or additional responsibilities to deal with the management and development of green issues ; and what additional allocation of resources has been made to support programmes related to green issues in his Department.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has assumed personal responsibility for overseeing the Welsh Office's environmental policies and programmes. The Department's wide-ranging responsibilities mean that environmental issues impact either directly or indirectly on the workloads of all Welsh Office staff. All are encouraged to take the environment into account in their day-to-day work. Full details of the financial provision in 1992-93 for environmental programmes are set out in the departmental report published in February.
Mr. Dafis : Does the Minister recognise that, following the Earth summit in Rio, ecological sustainability is now fundamental to all economic policy and that that has implications for economic development in Wales? Does he further recognise that west Wales has considerable potential for green developments, not least in renewable energy? What plans does the hon. Gentleman have for promoting such developments-- [Hon. Members :-- "Reading."] Yes, I am reading my notes. What plans does the Minister have for promoting such developments and ensuring that when they occur they will not be an almighty rip-off of the Welsh economy? That has happened many times in Welsh economic life, for example, in opencast coal
Madam Speaker : Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is Question Time ; he is making a speech. Will he now come directly to his question, as time is passing?
Mr. Dafis : What plans does the Minister have for developing that green potential--
Madam Speaker : Order. I am much obliged.
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Mr. Jones : I join the hon. Gentleman in welcoming the successful outcome of the Earth summit in Rio. I assure him that the Welsh Office was fully consulted before and during the conference. On the hon. Gentleman's final point, the work of conserving the Welsh environment is well under way. As he will note in the departmental report, the allocation to the environmental services programme is planned to be £194.5 million, an increase of £21.3 million. In addition, the WDA is carrying through its environmental improvement programme, which involves an increase of £15 million. Cadw's programme is up by £4 million and the programme for the Countryside Council for Wales is up by £3 million.11. Mr. Rogers : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for the reorganisation and development of the health service in Rhondda/Taff-Ely.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : This is principally a matter for Mid Glamorgan health authority at this stage.
Mr. Rogers : I understand that Mid Glamorgan health authority has submitted proposals for some capital development around Ynysymwm and other parts of the Rhondda-Taff-Ely area. While we are waiting for those major capital developments, the fabric of the existing buildings--especially Llwynpia hospital--is rapidly deteriorating. Will the Minister make available some emergency funds, in response to my letter to him, so that my constituents do not have to wait for medical treatment in the most appalling conditions imaginable?
Mr. Jones : I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall respond fully to his letter. In the interim, I remind him that the funding of £244 million for Mid Glamorgan health authority in the current year is an increase of 7.2 per cent.--well above the rate of inflation. I hope that that health authority will continue with the successful increases that it has been delivering in improved health care. I especially note that the number of in-patients treated is up 14 per cent. and the number of day patients is up by 42 per cent.
12. Mr. Llew Smith : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the implications for Wales of the findings of the Committee of Public Accounts on the level of monitoring of the working of the financial regime operated by housing associations under the Housing Act 1988.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : Detailed monitoring is undertaken by my Department and Housing for Wales on the basis of appropriate data, including that supplied by the Welsh Federation of Housing Associations.
Mr. Smith : What advice would the Minister give those of my constituents who live in substandard housing or who are homeless and who, because they receive low wages, do not qualify for a housing association flat?
Mr. Jones : As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said earlier, we will continue the successful work of the past decade, when the number of housing units increased by more than 8 per cent., while the population of
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