House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Jun 1992

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that were not enough, Opposition Members talk about regional government, which would cost about £375 million a year. I can think of much better things to do with £375 million than to waste it on regional assemblies.

We must draw a clear distinction between local delivery of services and local political decision-making. I am sure that all hon. Members will agree that our constituents expect their services to be delivered locally through local offices to which they can go if something goes wrong and to have elected representatives to whom they can go if they do not get satisfaction. That does not mean, however, that we need a political decision-making body every 35 miles the length and breadth of the land.

My second point is that local government is too expensive. It follows from the fact that we have too many councils that we have too many councillors. Leaving aside parish and town councillors, we have no fewer than 25,087 councillors--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is falling into the trap into which many other hon. Members on both sides of the House have fallen. He must relate his remarks more closely to the reports.

Mr. Stephen : I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me, then, deal with some of the comments made by other Members on the specific matter to which the report relates. The hon. Member for Stoke-on- Trent, South said that a kind of poll tax register would have to be maintained for the purpose of administering the council tax. I do not believe that to be the case.

Mr. Stevenson : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles)--one of his hon.

Friends--confirmed precisely that?

Mr. Stephen : My hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) must speak for himself. My opinion is that a register would not be needed. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South will recall that, under the old rating system, the rate bill was sent to the household and the people in that household would work out among themselves how it would be paid. Those who thought that the rateable value of their property should be reduced had to apply for a reduction. Those who felt that they were entitled, by virtue of their personal circumstances, to have their bill reduced also had to apply. The council tax will be no different. Bills will be sent out to households on the assumption that two people live in them. If only one person lives in a household, that person must apply for a reduction.

The valuation system to be adopted will be the same rather rough-and-ready system that was used by the Inland Revenue to place properties in a rateable value category. I am glad to hear that the private contractors who have been entrusted with the task of valuing properties are using modern technologies such as hot air balloons to perform it more effectively!

The new system will be much simpler than the old rating system, because we shall not have to place on each house a specific value down to the last pound. We shall merely have to identify it as a band-C or band-D house, or whatever. That is a rough-and-ready approach. There will be--

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Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I am afraid that it is too rough and ready. How does it relate to the introduction of the council tax and the moneys needed for it?

Mr. Stephen : I was simply responding to remarks that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South was allowed to make, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Bates) about the need for information technology. The world of information technology has undergone remarkable changes in the past five years. I know that, because I am a consultant to a company in the information technology field--and I must declare my interest in that respect. It is now no longer necessary for any local or central government department to own any computers, to employ anyone to operate them or to lease or own any buildings in which to house them. Departments need only tell one of the many private-sector companies what data to put in at one end and what they expect out of it at the other. They can leave to the private sector the task--a task for which it is much better equipped than local government--of working out what computers to use, who to employ and how to do the job. I commend that way of operating to any local authority faced with the job of introducing the software and hardware that may be necessary for the administration of the council tax.

The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) said that subsidies should be given to areas with low rateable values. I entirely agree with him that central Government subsidy is a legitimate function and that areas unable to raise sufficient money from their local people can rightly expect a subsidy from the rest of the country. My ministerial colleagues are aware of that point and give effect to it.

The hon. Member for Cardiff, West also referred to morale in local authority treasurers' offices. He would surely agree that morale depends on the quality of leadership that those people receive. If they are led by dismal Jimmies who can do nothing more than wring their hands and moan about lack of Government money, it is hardly surprising that they are demoralised. If, on the other hand, as is the case in most Conservative-led local authorities, those people are led by positive people with the attitude that they can do something, rather than that they cannot, I suspect that morale is higher. I welcome the report and believe that the money should be given to local government and used for the specified purpose, but a great deal needs to be done before the people of this country receive the value for money from local government and the efficient delivery of local services which they are entitled to expect.

6.20 pm

Ms. Marjorie Mowlam (Redcar) : The hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) referred to proposals for regional government. He should check whether those are the proposals of the President of the Board of Trade and be careful that he does not direct criticisms at the Opposition Benches. Some of those proposals come from the Government.

Langbaurgh, to which reference has already been made, welcomes the special grant because we desperately need it. It is sad that it has come so late and in such a small amount. Many of the problems that we face will be

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compounded when the council tax is introduced. If the grant had been available when it could have been used to good effect by the local authority, we could have dealt with some of the problems of uncollectability mentioned by the hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Bates).

The special grant will arrive when we already have problems with implementation in Langbaurgh. It will add to the problems and it will take us longer to solve the difficulties. It will help, but it has not arrived at the right time or in the right amount to deal with the serious problems facing Langbaurgh.

Another problem that we will face as a result of the special grant is that it does not take account of the nature of households. There are many one- parent households in Langbaurgh. The special grant does not relate to the make-up of the constituency and will not be the right amount to deal with the extensive problems facing us. The hon. Member for Langbaurgh referred to non-payment. I agree with him that it is unacceptable that others should pay, but he should be more straightforward and consider why that problem exists. There is a difficulty with non-payment, but we have a serious problem with collectability because of the nature of the poll tax. The Opposition have highlighted that problem on many occasions and it must be addressed. Langbaurgh had been caught by that problem. No grant can take account of the difficulties that councillors and officers of local authorities have faced in trying to implement the poll tax in the transition to the council tax. The previous lack of funding has left morale very low. The hon. Member for Shoreham made a facile and silly point when he said that Conservative authorities are positive and dynamic and that the dismal Jimmies in Labour authorities caused the problems. That is not the case. It is clear from representatives of local authorities of both political persuasions and of representatives of hung authorities that there is a serious morale problem.

Some problems arise for political reasons with powers being removed. There is also a serious problem because both Labour and Conservative councillors have difficulties in doing their job. We must consider the issue of civic duty. That is not a party political point and the serious problem of morale must be addressed if we are to deal with the problems that local authorities will face.

Mr. Bates : I am interested in the point about uncollectability. What makes it easier for 400-odd councils to collect more community charge as a percentage of their budget than we do in Langbaurgh? What makes it more collectable in those areas?

Ms. Mowlam : If the hon. Gentleman had been in Langbaurgh a little longer with his predecessors from the Labour party or from his party, he would know that Langbaurgh council had had an on-going difficulty. Together with the hon. Gentleman's predecessor, we met Minister after Minister in cross-party delegations to consider the difficulties with standard spending assessments. The SSAs have taken money from the council year after year and the council has had to take money from Peter to pay Paul. There have been serious problems in relation to sufficient staffing across departments and having people who want to stay with a council with such serious problems.

We must consider the confidence of officers, and councillors from both parties acknowledge that we have a

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problem. I have addressed that problem in cross-party discussions and I hope that the hon. Member for Langbaurgh and I can consider it with the Department of the Environment and the Department of Trade and Industry in the future.

The hon. Member for Langbaurgh knows the geography of the area as well as I. Many people work outside the area on rigs and many work in London. We have a mobile population which is sometimes considered to be an inner-city problem. Our area has the second highest unemployment level in the United Kingdom. It is second only to Northern Ireland.

Mr. Morgan : My hon. Friend is getting across the message very clearly that only a small part of the problem of collectability relates to the Tory mythology of the "Won't pay" extremist Trotskyite groups which are encouraged by Militant Labour Members. Any city treasurer would claim that the overwhelming majority of the difficulties of collection relate to the mobility of population, particularly among 18 to 25-year-olds who simply disappear or who go from one property to another every two or three months. They crash-pad out here, crash-pad out there, return home and then leave home again. No one really knows where they are. It is very difficult to discover someone's whereabouts during the three months that someone qualifies to pay the poll tax. That is why the Government have scrapped the poll tax five years after they introduced it.

Ms. Mowlam : I concur with my hon. Friend. We are not overwhelmed by Trots in Langbaurgh, as I am sure Conservative Members are aware. However, some people do not pay and I met one in my surgery on Saturday. That 82- year-old lady could not pay her poll tax or her electricity bill. She put the bills in front of me and asked me what she was meant to do. Some people are not paying because they do not want to ; people on the Government's basic state pension cannot pay. When he referred to the difficulties, the hon. Member for Langbaurgh said that the Labour party was interested only in the culture of grabbing money. He said that we always want more and that we are not interested in efficient expenditure. I can assure him that hon. Members on both sides of the House are very interested in efficient expenditure and a decent customer service. However, we need to know where the money is coming from and when so that we are not paying 1991 bills as a result of a late Government handout and afterthought in respect of computerisation. If we had known about the grant, we could have planned an efficient service. We cannot do that because of the short notice.

Because of the lottery of funding, whether that be through the assisted status scheme, city challenge, or a development corporation, we must fish from pond to pond to try to run an efficient local government service.

I am with the hon. Gentleman all the way. Yes, let us have efficient services, but let us have a culture that delivers public money to local authorities so that they can function efficiently. Local councillors at whatever level and of whatever party are finding it impossible to do an efficient job because of the incompetence of central Government.

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6.29 pm

Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) : It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlam). Opposition Members take to heart her comments about the culture of local government. Before I comment on the debate proper, I make a technical point to the Under-Secretary of State for Wales about precisely which document we are dealing with. Some days ago, we obtained from the Vote Office the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report No. 40 under section 88 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. Earlier this afternoon, my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon), the Opposition Deputy Chief Whip, indicated that we are dealing with the Local Government Finance Special Grant Report (Wales) 1992, under section 146 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. The confusion over which document we are to use, coupled with other matters that have been mentioned in the debate, including the revelation that hot air balloons will be used to value the people of Wales, or at least their houses, do not inspire much confidence in how the Government will deal with the implementation of the council tax.

Although we are dealing with grants of £6 million paid to Welsh district councils to administer the new council tax, hon. Members talked about the adequacy of that settlement and the detailed nature of the implementation of the new council tax. In Wales, the figure is £6 million, so we are told--that figure is in both books, so I assume that it must be right--although local government treasurers in Welsh district councils still believe that that is not adequate to cover the various aspects of the implementation of the council tax. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) said that his two district council treasurers are not happy with the settlement that they have received, and nor is the treasurer of my local authority. When we look at the various factors that make up expenditure for the implementation of the tax we can see why they are unhappy. It is not simply a matter of having the staff to administer in their offices. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Stevenson) and the hon. Member for Croydon, North-East (Mr. Congdon) both talked, although from different sides of the argument, about the need for a register. Whatever the Government say, a large number of billing authorities in Wales will have to establish some form of register to enable the council tax to work properly, and that will cost a great deal of money.

Reference has also been made to computers. If local authorities in Wales had not had the foresight to invest in computer hardware and software, they would be in serious difficulties in implementing yet another new local government finance system.

My hon. Friends the Members for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth) and for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) referred to discounts, banding and benefits. All those aspects of the new local government finance system which we are to introduce in a year will cost a great deal of money. The Government--in this case, the Welsh Office--have calculated precisely how much they will give each local authority on a rule-of-thumb basis. That is not good enough. That system is based on the number of properties in a local authority area, not on the number of payers.

The hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) referred to the dismal Jimmies in the finance departments of our

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local councils. That is a slur on what they do. Staff in local government finance departments must, within two or three years, deal with an enormous number of unnecessary changes in local government financial systems. Next year, they will have to deal with the demise of the poll tax. They will have to wrap up that tax ; introduce a brand new tax, the council tax ; deal with the growing problem of arrears ; and deal with the transitional relief of the non-domestic business rate. Combine all those things together and we see that the amount of work that has to be undertaken by our local council treasury departments is beyond the expectations of what they should normally do.

The whole package is ultimately unnecessary. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) rightly said that most people in Wales will regard a penny spent on changing the administration of local government finance to be entirely the responsibility of the Government, because they caused the changes to come about and therefore should pay for their implementation.

If ever there has been an intolerable waste of public funds, it is what has been wasted on local government finance in just a few years. In Wales alone, £100 million has been squandered on the implementation and the sweetening of the poll tax. We must add to that the fact that most of our local councils will have to cut their expenditure in the coming year-- although they have not yet been given the revenue support grant, which in itself is a scandal--and they will have to cut services, while the House of Commons will legislate to increase expenditure on administration.

The Conservative party has always said that it is the party of good management. If any local authority had mismanaged its finance in the way in which the Government have mismanaged theirs, they would have been in dire trouble indeed. The hon. Member for Erewash (Mrs. Knight) had the cheek to talk about wasteful Labour local councils when every penny of the £6 million of Government money in Wales alone was ultimately unnecessary. The Welsh council tax will not end that. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) and, although in a different context, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) mentioned gearing. The amount that Welsh local authorities can now raise by way of revenue is extremely small. The effect of that on what is left of local democracy in Wales is indeed very bad.

Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : I regret that I was not present for the start of my hon. Friend's speech, as I was attending to House business. I am concerned about finance, particularly when it affects Ogwr borough council. The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment has mentioned the 4,609 council houses that were sold by Ogwr borough council between 1981 and 1991. I do not know whether my hon. Friend has referred to the amount that has been raised by such sales, what will happen to it, or whether it can be used to build houses for my constituents in Ogwr borough who are crying out for accommodation, yet the Government are failing to respond to their demands.

Mr. Murphy : I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) that that money should be recycled into the local community to make new houses

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available for our people. However, that is another matter--but at least it would be using public money for good ends.

My point was that, necessary as the report might be, the money has simply been put into the administration of our Welsh local authorities. It has not gone to produce services for our people. One of the most tragic consequences is the instability and even chaos which have entered our local government system.

We have seen enormous changes during the past five years. We have seen value added tax increased to pay for the appalling chaos of the poll tax. The cost of implementing the council tax will lead to a tremendous lack of confidence among people in local government and in Wales as a whole in any regime of council finance that the House approves either today or in the weeks and months ahead.

Mr. Morgan : Before my hon. Friend finishes his speech, will he refer to the applicability in Wales of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) that major savings could be made by local authorities when they implement the new calculation procedure by following some new Tory slogan of, "Do your banding while you're ballooning" or, "Do your ballooning while you're banding"? Will he comment on the idea that if the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) was still the leader of Bradford city council he would probably hire Virgin Atlantic to do the ballooning because then it could be called the Branson Pickle?

Mr. Murphy : I am not sure how I can incorporate that idea into my final remarks, but, nevertheless, I found it enjoyable.

There is a special case for Wales. I address that case to the person who will speak last in the debate--the Under-Secretary of State for Wales. The changes in local government finance and the £6 million that we are approving this evening to implement the council tax have to be set alongside the changes in local government that the Welsh Office and the Government say will come about in Wales. Will the Minister assure us, and, indeed, Welsh local government, that they will implement their so-called reform of the structure of local government at the same time as they implement the council tax next year?

Will the county councils have to hold elections next year? Will they have to budget and plan? If the county councils have to set their budgets and the district councils have to collect the money for the county councils, all local government in Wales will effectively be in financial limbo. It will be frozen in the financial sense. Unless we know with some certainty what will happen to Welsh local government, all that we have dealt with this evening with regard to local government finance in Wales will be meaningless. I hope that the Minister will tell us, within the confines of the motion of course, whether implementation of the council tax will proceed alongside the reform of local government in Wales.

Of course, we shall not oppose the reports. By so doing, we would plunge many local authorities into penury. But we accept them with a certain reluctance based on the uncertainty and instability in the local government systems in both England and Wales. I hope that the Minister will give us a clear idea of how that instability can be overcome, at least in the Principality.

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6.43 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : We have had a good and useful debate, especially because wehave heard speeches from hon. Members on both sides of the House who have had experience of local government. As one who served on Cardiff city council for 13 years, I especially valued their speeches. I must first respond to the query of the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) about the reports. Due to a drafting error, the reports were originally laid under the wrong power. We immediately withdrew them and have relaid them under the correct provisions. The amounts of grant set out in the reports did not change.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) fascinated me when he said that he had seen a bright spot on 10 April when he realised that he would not be practically involved in local government finance. It must have come as a blessed relief to him, and I suspect to every other member of the Labour party, that he would not be plunged into government with all the dreadful promises that the Labour party had made.

The hon. Member for Brightside went on to quote The Times . He suggested that councils were already engaged in a campaign against the threat to their survival. In the Principality there is the broadest agreement about the progress that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is making on the reform of local government. There is the broadest agreement that we should move to unitary authorities. That will be accomplished by 1995. I suggest that England might want to take a leaf out of Wales' book about how to make progress in that direction.

The hon. Gentleman pursued the need for a register. My hon. Friends-- especially my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles)- -effectively disposed of that. I suspect that the need for a register is being pursued only out of a socialist yearning to keep everything on a register. The community charge register will be used only to provide an estimate of each authority's revenue-raising power in the first year of the new council tax. It is clearly the best information available for that purpose. From the second year of the tax, the previous year's figures will be used as the basis of rate support grant. Thus, I emphasise that there will be no need for a register beyond the transitional phase.

The hon. Gentleman estimated that authorities would need much more cash. He should note that the reports before the House relate only to 1991-92 and 1992-93. Costs in 1993-94 will be taken into account in the RSG settlement for that year. I suspect that the figure that he quoted was for all three years. He complained that banding would be inaccurate. It is surely self- evident that a system which relies only on broad value bands will be less subject to error than a system based on precise valuations. As the hon. Gentleman advocates the latter type of system, he should be careful not to criticise the accuracy of our system.

The hon. Gentleman suggested that the regulations were late. We have already provided all the key regulations that the authorities need. Some regulations remain to be made. The absence of less critical regulations is not inhibiting local authorities' progress. The most important regulations which remain to be made are on transitional relief. The key figures in those regulations are linked to the RSG settlement. Obviously they cannot be made until the

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RSG settlement details are available. But we have already told local authorities the structure of the transitional scheme and we shall shortly issue our draft regulations. Local authorities will therefore have perfectly adequate information on which to base their computer systems.

Mr. Blunkett : Perhaps the Minister will tell us why the provisional grant settlement has been deferred from its usual slot at this time of the year to the autumn, thus causing the local authorities considerable problems in planning their financial strategy for 1993-94.

Mr. Jones : If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, I shall come to that in a moment. I am responding to the points that he made. He also referred to charge capping. As I have already said, council tax and transitional arrangements will be taken into account in the settlement for the forthcoming financial year.

It is essential that the Government retain a strong capping power to ensure that the introduction of the council tax is not used as an excuse for irresponsible and unnecessary expenditure. On the question about transitional reductions, the Government are committed to limiting the increase in bills which households will face as a result of changing to the council tax. The transitional scheme may vary with property bands. Details of the scheme cannot be decided until property valuation is completed.

The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) asked about interest on capital costs covered by supplementary credit approvals. They will be met through RSG. I was intrigued that the hon. and learned Gentleman congratulated the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who is not with us in the Chamber, on his local success and perseverance. I wonder whether the hon. and learned Gentleman would make the same comments about the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis). The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery objected to paying himself in Montgomeryshire. I have to ask him, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Mr. Congdon), where he thinks that the money comes from. What dangerous naivety does he live in? As my hon. Friend said, the Government do not have any money of their own. It comes from taxpayers in Montgomeryshire and elsewhere. We all have to pay. The special grant arrangements and revenue support grant are the appropriate way forward.

Mr. Morgan rose--

Mr. Jones : Excuse me, but I must make progress.

The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery asked me to reject the notion that all community charge has to be paid. He seeks to rival the Labour party in being more extreme and more left-wing in that respect. The Government have repeated time after time that there can be no amnesty. I fully support--

Mr. Alex Carlile : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Jones : Forgive me, but I must make progress.

I fully support the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) that it is irresponsible to let some people off when the majority have paid and would have to pay for those who do not.

Mr. Carlile : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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Mr. Jones : No-- [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Order. The Minister is not giving way.

Mr. Carlile : He should.

Mr. Jones : The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that time is running out, and I wish to respond to everyone who has contributed. My hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Mrs. Knight) made an excellent contribution and gave us her experience of five years on Sheffield city council. It is little wonder that the hon. Member for Brightside wanted to dismiss his time there as the distant past. She was able to explain that, under the leadership of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), Sheffield was in a shambles. I appreciated her argument that Derbyshire cricket club brings more credit to the county than Derbyshire county council. That would not be difficult.

The hon. Member for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth) was concerned that disabled people might be overlooked. I hope that they will not be. We are aiming to provide reductions for people who are substantially and permanently disabled, which will ensure that no disabled person pays a higher bill because they need more space as a result of their disability.

The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Stevenson) asked whether supplementary credit approvals were possible. They will be available up to a total of £41.2 million in England and will be provided against expenditure on preparation. Each authority will have a maximum allocation, based on the number of properties. As the Minister said at the outset, if any SCAs are not applied for they will be recycled to other authorities that may need them. The hon. Gentleman also alleged discrimination against Stoke-on-Trent. There is no discrimination against his authority. It receives less grant than other authorities because it has fewer dwellings. A common amount for each authority would be nonsense. Why should a small shire district get as much as Birmingham or Manchester?

My hon. Friend the Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Bates) robustly advocated our progress in shouldering the burden of paying for local government finance. How right he was. The consequences of the "Don't pay" campaign advocated by Opposition parties was merely to shove the burden on to someone else. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend say that Conservative successes in two local elections in his constituency were the logical outcome of that campaign.

The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan)--my neighbour and an old school friend--mentioned the need for a higher level of grant support in Wales. I appreciate his point. The level of support in Wales is appropriate, and it will continue to be. We have taken that into account in setting different, lower property bands for the council tax in Wales.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) related his six-year experience of local government. I agree with his tribute to many people in local government who give so much of their time to serve their electorates.

The hon. Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlam) apologised for the fact that she could not be here for the winding-up speeches. I was glad of her welcome for the

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grant reports. I appreciate her desire to make the best case for her part of the world. That is the natural and imperative duty of all hon. Members, and I applaud her spirit in seeking to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Langbaurgh.

The hon. Member for Torfaen claimed, unsurprisingly, that some councils in Wales feel that the special grants that we have prepared are not enough. Generally, the special grants have been welcomed by Welsh local councils. Three Welsh local councils were used in the survey by CSL which helped us to introduce the grants--Delyn, Newport and Monmouth.

In his opening speech, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary told the House about the considerable degree of work that is under way to ensure that preparations for the council tax proceed smoothly to its introduction on 1 April next. There is close collaboration between central Government, local government and key organisations such as the Valuation Office agency. I have been very heartened by the input made by all concerned and, speaking from my own experience in Wales, by the constructive and professional approach that local authorities are taking to preparing for the new tax.

The valuation banding exercise is nearly complete, and considerable progress has been made on other important aspects of implementation, including, on the Government's part, secondary legislation and practice notes. In Wales, provision has been made for the electronic transfer of valuation lists in a variety of formats that best suit the needs of each authority. Most Welsh councils will have lists sorted in community order. At all stages in the preparatory process we have taken care to consult local government and other interested parties and to consider their views carefully.

Mr. Morgan : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Jones : I know that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West has so much hot air to contribute--but not in the time left to me. Final decisions on any transitional arrangements under the council tax cannot be arrived at until details of local tax bases are complete and have been analysed. We have not yet made a decision on whether transitional arrangements will be put in place for Wales. We will consider the need for transitional relief if significant numbers of households face large increases as a result of the new tax. If my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales considers, in all the circumstances, that a scheme of transitional relief is appropriate, he will consult the local authority associations on the arrangements and how to fund them. Draft regulations setting out a framework for the scheme--if there is to be one--have been issued. The level of council tax and transitional arrangements will also have implications for total standard spending and aggregate external finance under the local government revenue settlement for 1993-94. The Government wish to take those implications into account and for that reason--this brings me to the point mentioned by the hon. Member for Brightside--they announced last month their decision to postpone the provisional settlement for 1993-94 until the autumn. I am sure that the House will agree that it is essential that we take into account the most up-to-date information in determining the settlement.

The Government's decision to make special grants available in respect of council tax preparation costs has

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been welcomed by local authorities. The grant allocations set out in the two reports before the House will be of considerable help to local authorities in their preparations.

Mr. Morgan : Will the hon. Member give way?

Mr. Jones : I know that the hon. Gentleman has the old school tie connection. I suppose that I cannot resist that.

Mr. Morgan : Will the hon. Gentleman take up the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) about employing hot air balloons to conduct the valuation and banding exercise? If so, can he tell us how he will use some of the expense that that might save? He has spent a lot of Welsh Office money on changing the notepaper since he introduced his new title. He does not want to be called Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State ; he wants to be called Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That is outside the province of the motion. The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough--

Mr. Morgan rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I do not expect to have a discourse with the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Jones : I am sorry that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman. It was a silly intervention and turned out to be nothing more than something out of his hot air department again.

For those authorities whose expenditure exceeds their grant allocation, by far the greater part of the excess will be met from central Government support within aggregate external finance under the local government revenue settlements for Wales and England. The grant allocations and arrangements set out in the special grant reports for England and Wales are generous and fair. They clearly demonstrate the Government's commitment to facilitating the smooth and timely implementation of the council tax on 1 April 1993 which, contrary to the recent gloomy prognostications made by the hon. Member for Brightside, is firmly on course.

I apologise to any hon. Member if I have not replied to their questions in the short time available, and in the time spent dealing with interventions, some of which I should not have wasted my time on. I will endeavour to write to all the hon. Members to whom I have not replied. I commend the reports to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Special Grant Report (No. 4) (House of Commons Paper No. 61), which was laid before this House on 17th June, be approved.

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