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expecting those three farmers to live on fresh air. It is a scandal. Twelve months have gone by and still the dioxin is going into the milk--Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I remind the hon. Member of the need to keep interventions short.
Mr. Skinner : A lot of people in Bolsover have told me to make long interventions on that subject.
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Member's constituents are not in the Chair. I am.
Mr. Barry Field : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is obvious that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) had been concentrating so much on class consciousness that he has failed to notice that the Minister is now at the Department of the Environment and is not an agriculture Minister.
Madam Deputy Speaker : That is not a point of order.
Mr. Skinner : Further to that statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, if it was not a point of order--
Madam Deputy Speaker : I said that it was not a point of order.
Mr. Skinner : He was the Minister who replied to me on the issue when I raised it before the general election, so I
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The point that the hon. Member is making is not a point of order and I do not propose to take any other matters relating to a bogus point of order.
Mr. Griffiths : My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is right to speak about the way in which those farmers have been treated. It is a disgrace and, as he rightly points out, they take a far more sympathetic and positive attitude in the Netherlands to such problems. There, those farmers would have been properly and thoroughly compensated. I hope that the Minister will reflect on the issue, now that he represents a different Department, and will concede the real importance of conserving the environment and having discussions about the matter with his colleagues concerned with agriculture to see whether more positive action can be taken to help those farmers.
A worrying topic is quarrying in the countryside. I have mentioned that there is an opencast operation outside my back door. One that closed recently was extremely well managed, because of the way it went over an area where there had previously been half a dozen drift mines. Indeed, nobody in the village could tell that there was an opencast mine there because a huge bund of earth had been erected around the site. Apart from seeing a few train movements to and from the site, one hardly knew that coal was being taken from the ground by opencast methods.
Beyond that site, however, is the subject of a part-slip that is currently awaiting the inspector's report. The Opencast Executive has said that it cannot operate the site in the same way ; nor is it a site of old coal workings. In fact, it is a beautiful piece of countryside. So my village of Cefn Cribwr and people living in farms in the surrounding area would face, if permission were given, the complete destruction of a large area of countryside. They would have to live with a hole in the ground, which one could describe as a huge crater, for between five and 10 years.
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Given the amount of coal available from other sources, the conservation of the countryside should take precedence in such cases of opencast mining and quarrying. We throw away into waste tips far too much builders' waste and rubble which could be ground down and used instead of the aggregates that are quarried from many sites, including SSSIs. As the Government become more green, I should like to think that they will look seriously at the depredation caused by opencast mining and quarrying, not just on SSSIs but in the countryside at large.Mr. Skinner : Is my hon. Friend aware that the peripatetic workers in opencast mines follow the constructions around and just when one site comes to an end, suddenly another one is made available? What do the managers do then? They make a small fortune from digging out the coal and putting miners out of work. Then they dump toxic waste into the big hole. We are becoming the dustbin of Europe.
Mr. Griffiths : My hon. Friend's reference to dumping toxic waste into old opencast workings is a serious one. I should like to think that that could not take place. I hope that the Minister will investigate that thoroughly as soon as he leaves the Chamber this afternoon.
I hope that the Government will look into the whole issue of quarrying, because we quarry far more aggregate than we need. Far too much builders' rubble and associated waste could be used instead of aggregate, which would be extremely helpful in conserving the countryside.
Great play has been made about the Government's efforts to ensure proper access to the countryside and the Minister mentioned the schemes that they are trying to promote. In 1987 the Conservative party manifesto included a commitment to introduce legislation on the policies of the Common Land Forum. It did not appear in the last manifesto and seems to have disappeared from sight. It would have done a great deal to improve access to the countryside.
The Ramblers Association has raised with me the issue of the sale of Forestry Commission land and the loss of public access involved in that. Between 1981 and 1989, 140,000 hectares of land were sold and access was lost to many rights of way which had previously been open to the general public. In 1989 it was announced that the Forestry Commission should aim to sell a further 100,000 hectares by the year 2000.
The Government recognised the need to do something about the loss of access, so they set up a scheme which allowed local authorities to negotiate access agreements with the Forestry Commission before it sold land. Unfortunately, it is not a statutory requirement on local authorities. Because of the extra financial costs involved at a time of acute financial difficulties for councils, such as poll tax and council tax capping, few agreements have been brought to fruition. I believe that there is one access agreement now and a further 14 being negotiated. In Wales, for example, 40 access agreements have been offered on Forestry Commission land, but only three taken up. That is a serious problem which my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond) tried to put right in the previous Parliament by introducing a private Member's Bill. In doing so, he said that many of the commission's forests were popular recreation areas. He
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specified the Gwydwr forests around Betws-y- Coed in Snowdonia, Cannock Chase in Staffordshire, Thetford forest in East Anglia, Dalby forest in North Yorkshire and the Queen Elizabeth forest park near Loch Lomond. In addition, the Forestry Commission manages the New forest in Hampshire.My hon. Friend said that there were examples of woods that had been sold by the commission and had resulted in a loss of public access. Pen wood, south of Yeovil in Somerset was sold in 1983, since when the car park and picnic sites have been closed, the entrance to the wood locked, and notices erected forbidding the public to enter. Unfortunately, the Government did not agree with my hon. Friend's attempts to allow freedom of access to forests. Given the Minister's keenness to provide access, I hope that he will be prepared to reconsider the matter. He should be particularly eager, bearing in mind the problems of access that exist in other parts of the country, such as the Peak district and my home territory of Brecon Beacons national park where from a distance one can see huge brown swathes of the countryside where people, anxious to enjoy the environment, have gone for walks and simply walked away the grass. I believe that if there were more access points to the countryside, the pressure would be taken off the most popular districts. I hope that the Minister will reconsider.
Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham) : Surely, increasing access, particularly to upland commons as the Common Land Forum recommended, would cause even more damage. The hon. Gentleman must accept that all the scientific evidence shows that unrestricted access to and rights to roam on uplands causes considerable damage to wildlife and the enviornment. Therefore, access must be controlled.
Mr. Griffiths : I agree that access should be managed, but in many districts access is entirely prohibited. I am sure that, with a bit of good will on all sides--ramblers, country land owners, the Government, the Open Spaces Society--we could reach an agreement over more open, but managed, access. I am only sorry that the Government reneged on their commitment to try to take up some of the ideas of the Common Land Forum.
The Government's recent announcement on the M25 will have serious consequences for the conservation of the countryside if the Government intend to solve transport problems around London by extending the M25 to 14 lanes. The recently announced scheme will damage 81 important wildlife sites, including 10 sites of special scientific interest and nine sites of nature conservation interest. The M25 extension scheme also threatens 47 ancient woodlands. Let us not even begin to think about the pollution problems that will be caused to the surrounding district from the increased volume of traffic on the M25.
Friends of the Earth has been considering the announcement and has estimated that 60 per cent. of the works needed to extend the M25 and the associated distributor road network will erode the green belt. That is very serious in view of the Government's commitment to conservation in the countryside.
Hundreds of homes will be destroyed, as will large numbers of sites of special scientific interest and areas of outstanding natural beauty in the Chilterns, the Surrey hills and the Kent downs. Five National Trust properties
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are within a stone's throw of the proposed works. Who knows what damage they could suffer? There will be a huge increase in pollution. At Addlestone on the M25 it has been recorded that nitrogen dioxide deposits have risen by 92 per cent. since the motorway opened. A large number of serious problems are associated with the proposed extension and all the good things that the Minister claims he wants to achieve will be damaged.The Minister referred to his indicative forestry strategy. Most of the voluntary organisations involved in conservation believe that that strategy will not deal with many of the problems because it is concerned mainly with creating new woodland--which is desperately needed--and includes nothing for the management of existing woodland, where more resources need to be concentrated.
I wish to conclude, but I am not sure how long it will take. I want to make an important point on a matter that the Minister also raised. There is a need to promote the rural economy. There is no doubt that rural deprivation is a serious problem. Whole areas and communities in England, Wales and Scotland are now without a bus service. There are villages with no shops, no post offices, no youth clubs, no doctors' surgeries, no banks, no community centres and, in too many places, no schools. The quality of life for those who are used to living in the countryside is being severely threatened. For many people who come to the countryside because they can afford to live there, the threats may not appear to be so serious, but they are serious indeed for the resident communities.
As the Minister said, employment is the key. Unfortunately, his planning policy guidance note 7 has caused some consternation among conservation bodies because it appears to imply that in certain circumstances development might take precedence over important conservation points. If he were to extend schemes such as the environmentally sensitive area scheme and the wildlife enhancement scheme and put them on a more general footing, that would revive traditional countryside skills for the conservation of our countryside. Environmentally sensitive agricultural practices would provide more employment. That would begin to tackle the problems associated with the loss of services in the countryside.
The woodland scheme could be beefed up. Perhaps the farm diversification scheme, with which the Minister will be familiar from his time in MAFF, could be beefed up for rural businesses. Provided that it is interpreted fairly closely, we could get the sort of development in the countryside that would be extremely helpful to it.
The Government's countryside action plan is for England and does not extend to Wales. However, most of the initiatives are present in one form or another although they have not been brought together. The Tir Cymen initiative is more general than the Government's countryside stewardship scheme because it is not targeted at specific types of landscape. The pilot project has been undertaken in three quite different rural areas of Wales-- in Meirionnydd, which has a large upland area, in Dinefwr, which is in a beautiful lowland area, and in Swansea which takes in the Gower peninsula where there is a rural area with tremendous tourist pressures. It covers all types of habitat and landscape.
More needs to be done to promote environmentally sensitive agriculture, which could lead to a return of many traditional countryside skills and provide needed employment. That will lead to the return of shops, post offices and schools and other services. While we endorse all
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that the Government are doing, we plead for a wider and more general application of their schemes and the provision of more resources from and diversification of the CAP budget to environmentally sensitive practices. That is where the future prosperity of the rural economy lies.2.21 pm
Mr. Robert B. Jones (Hertfordshire, West) : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Field) on initiating the debate. This is one of the few occasions during the year on which Back Benchers have a chance to initiate discussion on important subjects. Therefore, it is all the more deplorable that the two Front-Bench spokesmen between them spoke for over two hours. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight justly has a reputation for being concerned with environmental issues. I have seen that at first hand through his diligent work on the Select Committee on the Environment. Therefore, I was not at all surprised at his choosing this important subject for debate. I was also pleased that my hon. Friends the Members for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) and for Surrey, East (Mr. Ainsworth) had the opportunity to make their maiden speeches on this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, East is to introduce a private Member's Bill following the lines of an amendment that I once tabled. The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) graciously spoke about that, but I warn him that he should not hold out too much hope, because I tried a private Member's Bill before I tried the amendment and it was blocked by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen).
The Minister for the Environment and Countryside gave a detailed exposition of the Government's approach to countryside issues. I am sure that he would be the first to agree that much of the work in that sphere was carried out by his predecessor Sir David Trippier, who was a distinguished Minister in the Department of the Environment. He was one of those largely responsible for bringing a rather greener view to Government policies.
One of the problems that we face is that the countryside is approached as a monolith by almost everybody who brings a policy to bear on it. We have heard about some of the issues that affect the countryside. Hon. Members have spoken about rural poverty, problems with schools, the disappearance of shops, unemployment, farm incomes and access. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight spoke about the problems of coastal management and coastal erosion.
The trouble is that not all these problems occur in every rural area. Those of us who represent the rural areas surrounding big cities experience wholly different problems from those who represent remote and inaccessible rural areas. I sometimes think, when I see the circulars that are prepared about diversification in farming suggesting schemes such as bed and breakfast, farm shops and caravan sites, that they may be all very well in Montgomeryshire, but they are inappropriate to the rural fringe of London.
To someone living in inner London, the countryside may be Richmond park or Epping forest. The rural area in my part of the world will be the sort of area that we have to defend from the large numbers of people who want to live there and the even larger numbers who want to visit.
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In remote rural areas, the countryside undoubtedly is a place where incomes have been depressed over recent years as a result of agricultural policy.I shall deal now with some of the environmental background. I have been associated with the campaign to preserve hedgerows, but other issues concern me, such as the loss of old pasture and hay meadows. In 1932, there were 5.48 million hectares used for such a purpose, but the latest estimate is that it is down to 0.12 million hectares--a decline of 98 per cent. over 60 years. There has been a tremendous drainage of fens and wetlands and many of the close-planted conifer plantatations have been responsible for major environmental problems.
Butterflies have been mentioned today and if I may quote a distinguished constituent of mine, Gordon Beningfield the wildlife artist :
"Butterflies more than any other living thing sum up for me the spirit of the British countryside in summer, but the land of quiet glades and flower- filled meadows has all but disappeared." That is true, and that is why the Government are, at long last, taking appropriate action, although I for one wish that they would take more action, and quicker. Their policies on hedgerows are extremely welcome, but when one compares the expenditure on the CAP with what is being spent on the environment, one wonders who is responsible for achieving that balance. After all, people are prepared to support farm incomes through their taxation because they see what farmers do in managing the countryside as preserving the rural environment of which they are proud.
Even in Britain, most people can trace their ancestry to rural roots within a few generations and we all have an interest in the countryside. That is why the quid pro quo of support for farming incomes, of which I thoroughly
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approve, must be the greater direction of resources to ensuring that farmers gain out of our growing environmental concern. Planning has rightly been mentioned today. At half-past four on Sunday morning, when I dare say my hon. Friend the Minister was still dealing with his red boxes, I got up to walk from Ivinghoe beacon along the Ridgeway--a beautiful summer's day walk. Part of the way along that walk, on which we were accompanied by the "Heart of the Country" television programme, we saw a five-bedroomed house that had been built originally as a shepherd's cottage. The Conservative Government have achieved great things in spreading wealth among our people, but even they have not succeeded to the extent that five-bedroomed "shepherd's cottages" are what they purport to be. We have had severe problems with the sub-division of farms, described in some detail by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight. We have also had problems with barns, which need to be preserved. They are beautiful buildings that have outlived their purpose because they are not suitable for modern farm machinery. However, they are best used for some purposes in some areas and other purposes in others. In my constituency I would rather see them as residential units easing the pressure on urban land, but in other areas it may be appropriate to relate them to jobs.It seems that we should not lay down a rule for the countryside generally. That is why in the short time that is left to me in this debate I plead with my hon. Friend the Minister to ensure that countryside policy is not monolithic but something that represents and takes into account the problems of every individual part of the countryside, whether those problems are overcrowding and urban pressures, rural poverty or a declining national asset in terms of the wetlands, our butterflies and our hedgerows.
It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned .
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Orders of the Day
European Union (Public Information) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 3 July.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That, at the sitting on Tuesday 30th June, if proceedings on the Motion on Select Committees related to Government Departments have not been previously disposed of, the Speaker shall, one and a half hours after the Motion has been entered upon--
(a) if the Question last proposed from the Chair is the Main Question, call a Member to move any amendments thereto which may have been selected, and the Questions thereon shall be put forthwith, and then put the Main Question or the Main Question as amended ; or (
(b) if the Question last proposed from the Chair is for the amendment of the Motion, put that Question and then proceed as aforesaid ; and
the said proceedings may be entered upon or continued after the expiry of the time for opposed business.-- [Mr. David Davis.]
BROADCASTING
Ordered,
That Mr. Nick Ainger, Sir Nicholas Bonsor, Sir Anthony Grant, Mr. Bruce Grocott, Mr. David Harris, Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory, Kate Hoey, Mr. Robert G. Hughes, Mr. Gordon McMaster, Mr. Tony Newton and Mr. Matthew Taylor be members of the Select Committee on Broadcasting.-- [Mr. David Davis.]
County Hall, London
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. David Davis.]
2.30 pm
Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your advice and guidance. I thought that Fridays were days when Back-Bench Members were given a chance to speak. In my judgment, there has been a gross abuse of the House by the occupants of both Front Benches, whose speeches took up two-and-a-quarter hours of debating time. Several Back-Bench Members gave up their Friday and gave up engagements last night--
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. When I stand the hon. Member must sit. I had already taken on board the hon. Member's point of order and I have some sympathy with it. He will know that it is not a matter for the Chair. If he is aggrieved, he or any other hon. Member must take up the matter privately with the Front-Bench Members who are concerned. We are taking time from the Adjournment debate, which I am not anxious to do. Ms. Kate Hoey.
2.31 pm
Ms. Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) : I am pleased to have the opportunity to talk about the future of county hall. I am pleased also that the Minister is replying, because he has taken a great deal of interest in the Waterloo area. He was
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supportive in his pre-ministerial days of groups such as the Coin Street Community Builders in their efforts to build low-cost housing for rent.Over recent weeks there has been much rumour and speculation about county hall. There has been a full and informative debate in the other place and an early-day motion signed by more than 150 Members calling on the Government to use their powers to delay the sale of county hall while full and detailed consideration is given to the proposal by the London School of Economics for it to become its home. The 150 signatures include Members from all parties in the House. The future of county hall is no longer a party political issue but one about a future for a great and historic building in London. I speak on the issue, first and foremost, as the Member whose constituency includes county hall. I see the LSE using the building to be in the best interests of the people in my area, and especially in Waterloo. There is a thriving community in Waterloo, as I and others continue to try to remind people. That community has suffered in many ways from more and more office development.
People living in the area have had their lives disrupted substantially by the channel tunnel works. Only this week the traders, shopkeepers and residents of Lower Marsh market, which lies behind Waterloo station, met representatives of British Rail and its contractors, Bovis, to draw attention to just how much damage is being done to market trade by the temporary closure of access roads and by the levels of dirt and dust. These factors have inevitably put off shoppers from using the market. Lower Marsh market needs county hall to be full of people. It also needs people who will be part of the community, not just people who come to stay for one, two or three days and who spend most of their time taking taxis from county hall to see sights in London.
Along the river by the south bank, we are trying to create an area that can inter-relate with the community rather than be apart from it. To have the London School of Economics, which is part of a university, in county hall would be of enormous value to the area. The LSE, which is internationally famous, would give a huge uplift in status to my borough. There would be many ways in which the expertise of the LSE could be used to help the borough. Already, the LSE has committed itself to appointing a community liaison officer, as a first gesture if the proposal goes through, who would work with the other interests on the south bank and especially with local people. There would be jobs for local people and for many of the borough residents who do not have English as a first language, there would be great opportunities to work with the language unit of the LSE. Those proposals are not just pipe dreams. They are ideas which have already been agreed in the heads of agreement drawn up when Lambeth granted planning permission to the LSE earlier this year. The other advantage is that the LSE has committed itself to allowing London Underground a site on the car park beside county hall to use as a spoil site for the Jubilee line, if it goes ahead, thus saving Jubilee gardens and allowing the marathon to continue to end there.
I was greatly disturbed to read that some people suggest that those of us who support the LSE are in some way anti-Japanese. Those are not my feelings and I do not believe that they are the feelings of anyone involved in support for the LSE. I feel rather sorry for the Japanese developer. He has been slightly misled and when he realises the strength of feeling on the issue, he will look again at his
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position. He may consider his agent's remarks in London this week to be unwise. The agent publicly accused the LSE of "criminally irresponsible behaviour".Will the Minister confirm that the LSE is conducting perfectly properly negotiations with the Government under the terms of the contract? Will he confirm that the LSE and his Department's officials are acting properly? It is important for the Government's response to the Japanese developer's agent's remarks to be put clearly on record.
I remind the Minister that the reason why there is no bid from the LSE to consider is that last September, Sir Godfrey Taylor, the head of the London residuary body, categorically told the LSE at a meeting that there were two criteria for the sale of county hall. The first was that the site must be sold as a whole and the second was that it could be sold only with planning permission. Neither criterion is met by the Japanese developer. The site has not been sold as a whole ; we are told that the Japanese have bought only the riverside site. The Japanese have not got planning permission for the development that they want. Will the Minister confirm that the Shirayama bid meets neither criterion, because the Japanese have bought only the riverside site and have not received planning permission for the development?
Clearly, the LSE wants to work out a bid. However, it is difficult to come up with a bid if one is not given access to the building. The London residuary body has, throughout this protracted saga, been reluctant to allow anyone access to county hall. I was given permission after much effort and many requests. In fact, there is not a great deal to see if one has been inside the building, as I have--but if the LSE is to devise a plan, its representatives need more than a five-minute walk round the building.
The LSE needs to know also the size of the Japanese bid. If Shirayama is to be given until October 1993 to complete its bid, surely the LSE can be given even a few weeks. It needs also to undertake a structural survey. The LRB is probably in possession of seven or eight structural surveys paid for with public money. I do not understand why a public institution such as the LSE should not be given access to any information that the board has about the state of county hall. Will the Minister undertake to allow the LRB to pass copies of its structural surveys to the LSE? If not, why not? Will the Minister give an assurance that if Mr. Shirayama wants to get out of his contract, he will be allowed to do so? The contract's opt-out clause applies only to the Government. I understand that the Shirayama bid has created a lot of interest in Japan, where many are asking why a Japanese company wants to buy county hall and turn it into a hotel when the people of London would prefer it to be occupied by an institution such as the LSE.
I do not suggest that the Minister could be bullied by anyone, but will he ensure that the Secretary of State for the Environment will not be bullied by Sir Godfrey into concluding a deal very quickly? No deal should be struck until the LSE bid has been properly considered.
The Government must reach a decision soon. We cannot allow speculation and rumour-mongering to continue. Will the Minister give a categorical assurance that the issue will come back to the Floor of the House for discussion, and not just be dealt with in the form of a
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written answer? There has been a debate in the other place as well as this Adjournment debate and, in view of that huge amount of interest, I hope that the Minister will undertake to make a statement at the appropriate time, and to allow further debate.Does the Minister acknowledge that the LSE wants to move to county hall without having recourse to public funds? It has made its own plans, and must be given the opportunity to come up with ideas. The Minister can help by acknowledging, if other members of the Government will not, that the LSE does not want to have recourse to public funds.
Although this is a constituency matter, it is also of Londonwide and national interest. To allow an institution such as the London School of Economics, which is known world wide, to occupy county hall would do a great deal of good to my area, London and the country. Given the number of other public assets that the Government have sold at less than their full commercial value, I cannot understand their objection in this instance. Of course, we cannot simply give the building away, but county hall was built with public money for public use, and there would be widespread support if the Minister said that the Government would fully consider the LSE bid.
I hope that by the time the LSE celebrates its 100th anniversary, in two or three years' time, it will do so in my constituency on the south bank opposite the House of Commons.
2.45 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robin Squire) : I congratulate the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms. Hoey) both on obtaining a debate on this subject at such an opportune time and on the way in which she made her speech, and I thank her for her kind personal comments--if this continues, one or both of us may be in trouble with our party authorities.
I fully appreciate that hon. Members on both sides of the House will share the concern that the hon. Lady has expressed about the future of this fine building. I can assure them that my colleagues in the Government and I are equally committed to ensuring that such a prominent landmark on the London scene--and one so readily visible from the House--receives the full measure of protection which it deserves and needs to preserve its historic qualities. I have been active long enough in the political life of London to know the respect and affection in which county hall is held by Londoners --in that respect, I distinguish the building from some of the people who have occupied it in recent years. It is essential, therefore, that the decision taken about its future should be the right one in the interests of Londoners and of the country as a whole.
I must first remind the House of the legal position. The responsibility for disposing of county hall was assigned by the Local Government Act 1985 to the London residuary body. That body has done yeoman service for the citizens of London in discharging its function of disposing of land and property formerly owned by the Greater London council. Since 1986 it has distributed about £520 million in capital receipts to the London boroughs, to the general benefit of ratepayers and charge payers.
In carrying out that task, the residuary body was subject to clear statutory obligations--the same as those that are binding on all local authorities under the terms of
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the Local Government Act 1972. They prohibit the residuary body from disposing of land for any consideration less than the best that can reasonably be obtained for it in the interests--Ms. Hoey rose--
Mr. Squire : I believe that I shall reach the point that the hon. Lady wishes to make. If I do not, I shall try to give way in time--but I believe that I can anticipate what she wants to say.
The residuary body cannot dispose of land for any consideration less than the best that can reasonably be obtained for it in the interests of local charge payers in London. If the body wished to dispose of it for any lesser consideration it would first have to obtain the specific consent of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State--although I understand that he has no power to direct the body in that way.
Reference has been made outside the House to two cases in which the residuary body has disposed of areas of the south bank to the south bank board for a nominal price, and it has been suggested that those cases should provide a precedent for the treatment of county hall. But those cases are quite different. In both of them the residuary body was careful to fulfil its statutory responsibilities. The first relates to an area of gardens which the South Bank Board has been managing for some time. The land is subject to agreements which prevent it from being used for any other purpose, and the residuary body took the view that disposal for a nominal sum was the most effective way of ensuring the continued maintenance of these gardens in the public interest.
In the second case there is development and the residuary body has therefore taken action to protect the interests of local charge payers in London by inserting a claw-back agreement which will ensure that they receive a proper return from the proceeds of such development.
Against that background, and with those clear statutory obligations in mind, the residuary body entered into agreement with the Shirayama company in March this year. Some recent press reports have been taken as suggesting that Shirayama has withdrawn or expressed a wish to withdraw from that agreement. I can assure the House that there is no truth in that, and that the reports were false.
The agreement relates to the riverside building--which is, as the hon. Lady said, the handsome building facing us immediately across the river, which everyone thinks of as county hall--but not to the other buildings which form part of the county hall site. It provides for the sale of the riverside building to be completed in October next year. It also provides a power for the residuary body--but not Shirayama--to withdraw from the agreement at any time up to the end of this year, in return for the payment of a modest sum by way of compensation.
There is no doubt that the agreement would provide a major and worthwhile focus for the development of the south bank. A new hotel of international reputation with associated conference centre would do much to bring new life and new jobs to an area of London which stands to benefit from them greatly. It would also be a significant attraction to visitors from overseas. It was a major concern of my right hon. Friend, the previous Secretary of State--now the President of the Board of Trade--when he
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considered the planning application, that the architectural features of the riverside building, including the former council chamber, should be fully respected.The hon. Lady referred to planning permission. I am advised that Shirayama proposes to implement the planning permission granted by my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State. If the company wishes to develop the site in a different way, it might need further planning permission. Should that question arise, it would be a matter for Shirayama and the local planning authority to consider.
Ms. Hoey : I understand that the planning permission granted for the building to the previous developers who went bust was for the whole site.
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