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House of Commons
Monday 29 June 1992
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
TRANSPORT
Motorway Lane Rentals
1. Mr. Page : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what effects lane rental contracts are having on the speed of repairs and extent of disruption to traffic on motorways.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. John MacGregor) : Repairs carried out under lane rental contracts are completed some 30 per cent. faster than works under conventional contracts. Our widespread use of that system means that maintenance is completed faster on average than anywhere else in the world, and it has saved about £100 million in the cost of delays to road users since its introduction.
Mr. Page : My right hon. Friend will be aware that a large part of my constituency is covered by the M25, so I am glad to hear of those improvements. What is he doing to promote the use of lane rentals? As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, may I ask him to tighten up on lane rental contracts, especially the extension of time? I am sure that my right hon. Friend realises that to have a lane rental contract and then to extend the time makes that contract worthless.
Mr. MacGregor : On my hon. Friend's first point, I am glad to say that 50 per cent. of all appropriate contracts for road maintenance are on the basis of lane rentals. Next year, the figure will rise to two thirds, which is about the maximum. Progress in this matter is ahead of the commitments given in the citizens charter.
I am aware of the good report from the Public Accounts Committee and we support a large number of its recommendations. We are dealing with the points that it raised as vigorously as possible, including the one mentioned by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Pike : Although we all welcome what the Secretary of State has said, does he recognise that there is still a massive problem? Single lanes on both the M1 and the M6 cause great traffic delays and many safety problems. Can something be done to eliminate that problem in 1992?
Mr. MacGregor : The reason for some of the delays is the need to repair and update motorways that were built some considerable time ago. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the delays would be very much greater if we
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did not carry out the necessary repairs. The important point is to get the repairs done as quickly as possible, and that is what lane rental contracts are doing.Mr. Dykes : As the Secretary of State for the control of unnecessary cones, can my right hon. Friend give us an up-to-date report on the current position? Far too many motorways have long lanes of cones even when no work is being carried out, and that is especially true at weekends. Are cones to be the only growth industry, apart from security men? I hope that my hon. Friend can give us that up-to-date report.
Mr. MacGregor : I share my hon. Friend's view, but it not the only matter with which I have to deal. The amount of maintenance on motorways has risen by 30 per cent., which is why there are more cones about. The lane rental contracts speed up the time it takes to carry out repairs, which should considerably reduce the number of times that we see cones on motorways.
On my hon. Friend's other point, we insist that all contractors give information to drivers where cones are being used. In particular, they must give information about why cones are being used if it does not appear that any work is being carried out. If anyone sees a 4-mile stretch of cones where it appears that no work is being done and there is no information to tell people what is happening, I hope that they will let me know.
Red Routes
2. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what effect the red route pilot projects have had on the traffic flow in London.
The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris) : On the pilot red route overall accidents have reduced by 36 per cent., with accidents for cyclists down by 55 per cent. and for mopeds/motor cyclists by 60 per cent. In addition, bus journey times have reduced by more than 10 per cent. and their reliability has been improved by a third.
Mr. Greenway : I congratulate my hon. Friend on those figures. Will he confirm that my constituents living at the side of the A40, which is shortly to become a red route, will have ingress and egress to and from their properties and that worshippers going to St. John Fisher church in Perivale will be able to continue to do so without let or hindrance?
As wheel clamps are never used on red routes, why are they used so freely elsewhere?
Mr. Norris : It has always been the case that the key to red route implementation is flexibility, and that the local community's ability to go about its normal business is uppermost in our minds. I can give my hon. Friend the reassurances that he seeks in respect of his constituents.
Mr. Chris Smith : Does not the Minister accept that he and his Department are living in a completely different world from those of my constituents who are affected by the red route scheme? Residents with a year's experience of the red route know that it has succeeded only in attracting more traffic to a part of London that is already congested. In addition, it spells disaster for local traders and shopkeepers. Should not the Minister wake up to that reality?
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Mr. Norris : The hon. Gentleman is wrong on both counts. There is no evidence of extra traffic. Any increase--bar 2 per cent. that is currently unaccounted for--derives from rat-running traffic being taken back on to the main road, where it ought to be. The hon. Gentleman knows that many businesses off the red route in Islington have suffered equally difficult times. There is no evidence to connect lower business activity with the existence of red routes.Mr. Horam : Does my hon. Friend accept that although there is a great deal of support for the red route policy, it could be defeated if too much traffic is forced on to the roads because of deteriorating community rail services? Is he aware that there has been a massive downgrading of the service on Kent commuter lines in particular since May? Some believe that one reason is the desire to create slots for channel tunnel rail services. Will my hon. Friend speak to the director of Network SouthEast to ascertain the facts, and to ensure that the admirable red route policy will not be undermined from that quarter?
Mr. Norris : My hon. Friend is right in saying that we ought to consider not only improving traffic performance but investment in public transport. Some £3.5 billion is to be spent on London Underground alone in pursuit of that objective. As to Network SouthEast, my hon. Friend the Minister for Public Transport will convey my hon. Friend's remarks to Network SouthEast.
Mr. Spearing : Does the Minister remember telling the House that the additional facilities for walkers, cyclists, and parking were a major element in the red route proposals? Does he recall also telling the House :
"the annual cost of the additional police officers and traffic wardens will be about £25 million."--[ Official Report, 18 June 1992 ; Vol. 209, c. 610. ]?
Why does not the Minister provide cycling, walking and parking facilities elsewhere in London, and examine instead preventing congestion--which would surely represent better value for money than that £25 million?
Mr. Norris : Red route programme expenditure is devoted entirely to relieving congestion. I thought that the hon. Gentleman understood that. He is right to say that enforcement is the key, which is why his local borough welcomes the powers in part II of the Road Traffic Act 1991, which will release resources for policing the routes.
Sir John Wheeler : Is my hon. Friend aware that the red route initiative is very welcome in my constituency, but that if it is to be carried through, it is essential that my hon. Friend reviews the management of bridges across the Thames? All too often, they are closed or have obstructions placed upon them. There is no point in pushing traffic through London if it cannot cross the river.
Mr. Norris : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's welcome for the red route programme. He has been in contact with my office about the important question of bridges, and I assure him that I will take a personal interest in ensuring that river crossings are managed as effectively as possible.
Traffic Congestion, Wearside
3. Mr. Etherington : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the Government's proposals to reduce road traffic congestion on Wearside.
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The Minister for Roads and Traffic (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle) : Apart from the A19 west of Sunderland, which is not congested, the responsibility for roads on Wearside lies with the local highway authority, Sunderland city council.
Mr. Etherington : I congratulate the Secretary of State on his new post, and wish him every success in it.
Does the Secretary of State accept that, although billions of pounds have been spent on motorways and bypasses, such measures have only a marginal effect on traffic in urban areas and, indeed, city centres? Does he agree that the way ahead lies in dedicated tramway systems and, possibly, in an extension of the Tyne and Wear metro system from Tyneside to Wearside?
Mr. Carlisle : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for over- promoting me, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State heard what he said and will be grateful for his good wishes.
As the hon. Gentleman will know, in July the city council will be able to present its bids for transport supplementary grant, and I shall of course pay careful attention to the bid from his local authority. It is worth pointing out, however, that last year we accepted the Doxford park access road into our scheme, and that it is one of five local schemes that we are now supporting.
Mr. Butcher : Can I persuade my hon. Friend to increase spending in Wearside by approximately £10 million? That is the amount that he would save by abandoning the unwanted, unneeded bypass improvement schemes in Coventry, South-West. My constituents--
Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman has been most ingenious, but he cannot get that one past me. I think that he has probably asked his question now.
Mr. Butcher : I am anxious to help my colleague from Wearside, the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Etherington), on an all-party basis. I assure him that there is £10 million in the kitty, from my constituency to his
Madam Speaker : That is excellent, and I am sure that the Minister appreciates it.
Mr. Carlisle : My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mr. Butcher) brought a delegation to my office. I do not expect ever again to receive a delegation in the House and to be asked not to spend money in an hon. Member's constituency.
Mr. Boyes : In view of the congestion in Wearside and other areas, will the Minister consider conducting an experiment to establish the relationship between a reduction in the speed limit from 30 mph to 20 mph and injury levels in defined dangerous areas?
Mr. Carlisle : We are considering whether we can extend the criteria under which local authorities will be able to make up their own minds about the speed limit that is suitable in their areas. I hope to make progress on that in the autumn.
Aviation
4. Mr. Jonathan Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the Government's policy on the future of state aids for the aviation industry.
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Mr. MacGregor : In the light of the important agreement on the single market in aviation reached at the Transport Council on 22 June, the removal of state aids in aviation is now more crucial than ever.We believe that state aids that distort, or threaten to distort, competition undermine the effective operation of the market and so harm the interests of air passengers. We will therefore continue to press the Commission to use its powers to control these subsidies strictly, particularly where they are used to shore up inefficient carriers or to finance major expansion plans and acquisitions.
Mr. Evans : Is my right hon. Friend aware that the agreement that he was able to reach in Luxembourg has been widely welcomed? At least Conservative Members recognise it as a significant step forward in the introduction of greater choice and competition. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the great success for which he was responsible is carried forward, thus securing more genuine competition with all European airlines?
Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The agreement came at the end of 10 years of negotiation in which the British Government took the lead. It represents a major landmark in the development of the European aviation industry, and is far the most significant advance in the opening of European skies to full competition.
Mr. Prescott : When is it coming in?
Mr. MacGregor : The answer to the hon. Gentleman's sedentary question is that 90 per cent. of the arrangement will come in on 1 January next year. Contrary to some press reports, it is coming in pretty quickly.
I very much take the second point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Evans). I assure him that we shall use our presidency to steer the Community towards better-defined guidelines on state aids, which would have to be followed strictly--I emphasise the word "strictly"--by member states wishing to give aid to their airlines.
Mr. Sproat : I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on what he and his officials achieved in Brussels last week. Will he assure the House that he will use the British presidency to ensure that the great potential benefits that he won for passengers are not diluted, delayed or rendered useless by other EC Governments subsidising their own state airlines--as they are still doing--or by, for example, abuses of airport slot allocations or other anti-competitive or anti-consumer local working practices?
Mr. MacGregor : The agreement that we reached sets the very significant background to the agreement. As the chairman of British Midland said, it opens up tremendous opportunities. I recognise, however, that there are other steps still to be taken and that there are other significant areas still to be tackled. That in no way undermines the very important advances that we have seen as a result of the agreement. As my hon. Friend rightly mentioned, they are in the areas of state aid which, as I have already said, we shall be taking forward during our presidency. I hope that we shall be able to complete the competition package. I recognise also that slots represent another important aspect in opening up the markets.
Mr. Snape : Will the Secretary of State stop reading out his press releases? Does he accept the view of Sir Colin Marshall, the chief executive of British Airways, that
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"The agreement is not as much as we"--meaning them--
"originally hoped for and nowhere near as much as we would have liked"?
Does he also accept the view of Mr. Ian Wild, airline analyst at BZW, who said that
"The EC agreement seems to be couched in such restrictive terms and with so many conditions that it will be a practical impossibility for anyone to achieve radical change"?
Are they talking about the 90 per cent. or the 10 per cent?
Mr. MacGregor : I disagree with both comments, particularly the last. There has been a failure by whoever said it to understand just how significant the advances are. The safeguards to which he refers are safeguards to protect passengers against predatory air fares. Both Mr. Richard Branson and Sir Michael Bishop warmly welcome this agreement and understand the importance of this advance. Of course, the agreement does not complete everything. There are still important areas to be tackled in what up to now has been a restrictive and protected market. However, I beg the hon. Gentleman to understand just how significant the advances are. I have already said that we shall be tackling those other areas. We believe that 90 per cent. of what British Airways needs in order to compete more widely in the European markets has been achieved. There is a transitional period on one point, and even there we have negotiated down the period of the transition.
Roads, Dorset
5. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans his Department has to improve north-south road links in Dorset.
Mr. Kenneth Carlisle : The national trunk road programme includes two schemes--the A31 to Mannings Heath relief road and the Poole harbour bridge replacement--which, together with trunking an existing section of road, will provide a high-standard trunk road between the A31 and Poole.
Other north-south roads in Dorset are the responsibility of Dorset county council. We support the council's improvement programme through transport supplementary grant, where justified.
Mr. Bruce : Surely my hon. Friend knows that the schemes to which he referred amount to approximately a couple of miles, linking in with the east-west routes from the ports, and that they make no difference to the north-south link. My hon. Friend will remember that when he was Under- Secretary of State for Defence Procurement at the Ministry of Defence he turned down the co-location of Sea Systems Controller in Weymouth, mainly because of the terrible north-south road link between there and Bristol. The roads have not changed. I wonder whether my hon. Friend will use the vigour that he showed in the Ministry of Defence to make sure that he shakes up the Department of Transport and puts real north-south trunk roads into Dorset?
Mr. Carlisle : When I was at the Ministry of Defence, my hon. Friend dogged me with his zeal to relocate Ministry of Defence establishments in south Dorset. I can assure him that the fact that his request did not succeed was not because of road links. Nevertheless, I am sure that he will be just as passionate about road links to Dorset, as he has no doubt hammered every single Under-Secretary of State on these matters on behalf of his constituents. The
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Government have not done too badly by Dorset. A major link between the A31 and Poole is in the programme. Four other north-south schemes are also in the programme and are supported by us to the tune of about £30 million. It might be worth mentioning, as evidence of our support for Dorset, that in the past 10 years eight bypasses have been built in Dorset, two are now under construction and an additional 15 are in the programme, so Dorset is doing very well by the Department of Transport.Roads (Environmental Protection)
7. Mr. Peter Atkinson : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he is taking to make roads more sympathetic to the landscape through which they pass.
8. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he is taking to make roads more sympathetic to the landscape through which they pass.
13. Mr. Moss : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measures he is taking to ensure that the natural environment is protected when new roads are built and existing roads improved.
Mr. MacGregor : We always undertake a thorough environmental assessment and give great weight to sensitive design in the development of trunk roads. A great deal of time, care and money are devoted these days to designing schemes to fit into the existing landscape.
Mr. Atkinson : Will my right hon. Friend recognise the importance of balancing protection of the environment with the needs of an expanding economy? Does he agree that the increase in the number of cars and commercial vehicles on our roads--for example, on the A69 in my constituency--is a direct reflection of that increasing prosperity?
Mr. MacGregor : I very much agree with my hon. Friend. As most hon. Members know, much of the pressure for improved roads, new road schemes and, perhaps above all, bypasses comes from our constituents. That is why we have a massive road programme. He is right to say that increased prosperity has led to increased traffic. At the same time, it is important to ensure, as we do, that the environmental impact of our future major networks is as beneficial as possible.
Mr. Townsend : I recognise the Government's national success in this regard, but does not my right hon. Friend think, on consideration, that the east London river crossing would be more sympathetic to an 8,000-year-old wood and a site of special scientific interest if his two predecessors had agreed that it should be a cut-and-cover tunnel, as agreed by the inspector at the inquiry?
Mr. MacGregor : The crossing was the subject of many inquiries before decisions were taken. I know from having come to the matter afresh that everything has been considered and everything is being done to ensure the minimum environmental effect.
Mr. Moss : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that if the go-ahead is given for the east coast motorway a comprehensive environmental impact assessment will be undertaken to measure its impact on the unique drainage of the Fens area of my constituency? On the dualling of the A47, will he confirm, if not today then later, that his
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Department is investigating possible lines of routes both north and south of the River Neve in the vicinity of Wisbech?Mr. MacGregor : The Government have no plans for an east coast motorway. As my hon. Friend will know, that plan was put forward by a consortium of local authorities and private contractors. If at any point--I make it clear that I do not envisage anything--such a scheme were proposed, it would be subject to the full environmental impact assessment that we require of all schemes. My hon. Friend will know that we plan to make a dual carriageway of the whole of the A47 from Peterborough to Great Yarmouth. I know how widely welcomed that is by all road users in Norfolk, my county. I am not aware of the scheme to which he referred, but if I may I shall look into it and write to him.
Mr. David Marshall : What new measures, if any, is the Secretary of State taking to improve safety on our roads?
Mr. MacGregor : We spend a lot of time and moneyon measures to improve safety--road signing, road design
Mr. MacGregor : Yes, on red routes and on matters that I mentioned earlier such as motorway coning. Heavy emphasis is placed on road safety. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, although we want to do better, the number of road accidents now is the same as in 1948, despite the huge increase in traffic in the intervening period. We not only concentrate heavily on safety but the policy is having its effect.
Mr. Harvey : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, however many trees are planted, building new roads damages the environment, as is evidenced by the M25 and M3 at Twyford Down? As the current road building programme will not meet the 1989 traffic growth forecasts, would not a greener policy be to ensure a level playing field in the investment policies of all modes of transport and to devise policies that reduce the public's need to travel great distances?
Mr. MacGregor : I think that that demonstrates the muddle that the party to which the hon. Gentleman belongs so often gets into on such matters. He cannot say that we are not building enough roads to meet 1989 growth levels but then complain that we are building too many. However much of a switch there is from road to rail--I am very keen on that and we are pursuing it as much as possible--and however heavily we invest in public transport, as we do, there will still be an increasing demand for traffic by road, as prosperity grows, for individual car passengers and for road haulage. Therefore, we need the road programme and I am very keen on a heavy environmental involvement in it.
On the M25 link road, one of the options involves a considerable take-up of extra land because of the landscaping which will mean an enormous number of trees and shrubs being planted. We are trying to get the proper balance.
Mr. Prescott : To judge from the wording of the questions, the Government are more successful at planting questions than planting trees. Does the Secretary of State agree that giving insufficient resources to British Rail while
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at the same time providing millions of pounds for the building of 14-lane motorways and millions of pounds for the planting of trees will merely increase the level of car exhaust gas emissions which not only damage the trees but add to the global warming problem?Mr. MacGregor : On the first point, the Government have been very successful at planting trees. The Department of Transport plants more mature broadleaf trees than any other organisation and, as I said earlier, about 300,000 trees and 400,000 shrubs will be planted on the small stretch of the M25 if our preferred option goes ahead. Clearly, there is a heavy emphasis on tree planting.
On the balance between public transport and roads, the M25 proposal will cost £144 million. We are currently spending £700 million on capital investment in London Underground alone and about £2 billion on a very large British Rail capital investment programme. Therefore, there is a balance, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that we should be cutting the road-building
programme--other measures will enable us to reach the carbon dioxide emissions target.
Mr. Garnier : Will my right hon. Friend accept the thanks of my constituents for the A6 Market Harborough bypass which was opened last weekend by the Minister for Public Transport? Will he also accept that the building of the bypass has not only improved the environment of Market Harborough by removing cars and noise but has enabled 30,000 or more trees to be planted? Will he please pass on the thanks of my constituents to those involved?
Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to my hon. Friend who makes an important point about bypasses. Bypasses now take up about 30 per cent. of our total road programme and have a tremendously beneficial environmental effect on everyone who lives in the towns and villages that are bypassed.
Unlicensed Taxis
9. Miss Lestor : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received about the risks to passengers involved in the use of unlicensed cabs ; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : Following representations about the safety of cab users in London, we set up a working party to investigate the subject. It has just delivered its report, which we are studying with interest. We have had no representations about unlicensed cabs outside London.
Miss Lestor : I thank the Minister for that reply. When he has had time to study the report, will be bear in mind the fact that the registration and checks kept on licensed black cabs, which have made the service probably one of the best in the world, do not apply to many other private services? As the use of the private sector is becoming so large, should there not be regulations to standardise the type of vehicle used and to ensure that there are the same checks on drivers and safety as apply to the licensed cab service?
Mr. Freeman : As the hon. Lady knows, in virtually every local authority outside London, private hire vehicles as well as black taxis have to be licensed. In London, vehicles that are not taxis are not licensed. We have set up
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a working party and, as I said, we are studying the recommendations carefully to see whether there is a case for introducing a greater degree of licensing in London.Ms. Ruddock : Further to that reply, will the Minister acknowledge that there is a problem with licensed cab services outside London? Does he recall the recent case in which Rotherham magistates court and the Crown court overturned Sheffield city council's rejection of an application for a private hire licence from a man who had been convicted of assault and of drink-driving offences? There are people today driving licensed cabs who, in our view, should not be in charge of either a cab or passengers. When the Minister replied to my letter, he said that it was an "unusual decision" but declined to take further action. Will he reconsider those remarks to me? Will he take account of the Suzy Lamplugh Trust's current campaign on the issue, look at the matter afresh and make appropriate representations to his colleagues in the legal departments?
Mr. Freeman : I join the hon. Lady in paying tribute to the work of the Suzy Lamplugh Trust. Both the hon. Lady and I have been to a number of functions sponsored by the trust. I agree that there are regrettable instances of some local authorities proceeding to license drivers when, on the face of it, they are not proceeding on a consistent basis with other local authorities. I undertake to study further the case that the hon. Lady cited, to raise the matter with colleagues in the Home Office and to write to the hon. Lady.
M25
10. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about the widening of the M25.
Mr. Kenneth Carlisle : Work on the proposals for the M25 announced last September is progressing well.
Mr. Marshall : I welcome my hon. Friend's proposals. Does he accept that traffic on the M25 is well above design capacity and that congestion on the M25 will be relieved only when son of M25 is built?
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