House of Commons Hansard Debates for 29 Jun 1992

Mr. Carlisle : My hon. Friend raises a relevant point. I agree that a lot of traffic uses the M25. Indeed, that is one aspect of its success. It is clearly needed in the motorway network. As my hon. Friend knows, we have plans to convert the M25 within its existing boundaries into four lanes within about six years, which will certainly help. Any other improvements--indeed, all improvements--have to go through a clear scrutiny before they are accepted. We pay great attention to the needs of the environment.

Mr. Cryer : Is not the cost of motorway extending and widening extremely high? Why is the Department of Transport prepared to fund extensions with such apparent ease? Is not the real task of the Department to try to encourage people to transfer from road to rail? In that context, why is the Department holding back on a scheme such as Leeds-Bradford electrification and denying authorisation for the money for that scheme, which is in jeopardy because of the Government's railway privatisation proposals?

Mr. Carlisle : We have a balanced transport policy. I remind the hon. Gentleman that investment in public

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transport is at its highest level for 30 years. We have to put the matter in context. The M25 is crucial for our economic success. It carries much of our traffic--not only local traffic, but traffic going to the main ports. It is one of the busiest roads in the country and is central to our economic performance. Our intention is to make certain that the M25 serves the nation well.

Mr. Dunn : The Minister will be aware that in the context of widening the M25, new slip roads are to be built in Dartford connecting the A2 with the M25. Will my hon. Friend give me a personal guarantee that every effort will be made to install noise minimisation measures and proper landscaping for the new slip roads in Dartford?

Mr. Carlisle : I am well aware of that scheme and its importance for my hon. Friend's constituents. I shill supervise the work carefully. I should be delighted to discuss with my hon. Friend later the demands for the road surface and for the landscaping to which we attach such importance in all our projects.

Ms. Walley : Does not what we have just heard show that the Government have a completely piecemeal approach to transport policy? Given the way in which we have heard about the announcement for the £2.5 billion programme, will the Minister tell us what he is doing about the recommendations of the Standing Advisory Committee on Trunk Road Assessment in its report? Why have those recommendations not been taken on board in full in relation to that extension? Will the Minister give me a guarantee that there will be full public consultations in respect of the review of the manual on environmental appraisal which has long been promised and is long overdue?

Mr. Carlisle : I think that the hon. Lady's sums are a little wrong. It was announced last week that the link roads between junctions 12 and 15 will in fact cost about £140 million. Moreover, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, we are concentrating on environmental matters in the scheme. Some two thirds of the land take will be used for landscaping--planting trees, and so forth. However, I agree with the hon. Lady that the SACTRA report is important. We are examining its conclusions and we expect to come forward with a new environmental manual very shortly.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

National Audit Office

28. Mrs. Currie : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what funds have been expended in the last two years by the National Audit Office in maintaining links with similar organisations in the European Community.

Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission) : The National Audit Office spent about £60,000 in the financial year 1990- 91 and £120,000 in 1991-92 on maintaining links with similar organisations in the European Community.

Mrs. Currie : I am delighted to hear that the National Audit Office is spending money maintaining links with the European Commission. Given that the most difficult problem with public money is keeping tabs on it, finding

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out where it has gone and ensuring that we obtain value for money for it, is it not right and proper that we, with our knowledge and expertise in this country, should be sharing the same with our colleagues in the European Community and ensuring that they do the same?

Sir Peter Hordern : My hon. Friend is quite right. As she knows, one of the provisions of the Maastricht treaty is to give the European Parliament new powers, which may be turned to examine the Commission as a whole, in respect of examining expenditure in much the same way as our Public Accounts Committee does here. I hope that the budget committee of the European Parliament will be able to carry out its work.

29. Mr. Peter Bottomley : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission how much the National Audit Office spends on publicity for its reports.

Sir Peter Hordern : The National Audit Office handles its own publicity and one member of staff acts as press officer. Advance copies of reports are provided to the press and other interested parties. In the financial year 1991-92, the cost of those copies amounted to about £6,000.

Mr. Bottomley : I suspect that that is very good value for money, economical, efficient and effective. Will my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission pass on to the Comptroller and Auditor General my thanks and the thanks of the House as in future those reports are to be made available to hon. Members at 3.30 pm, before they are made available to the press, and not at midnight?

Sir Peter Hordern : I am obliged to my hon. Friend.

30. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission how many non-departmental public bodies are audited by the National Audit Office.

Sir Peter Hordern : The National Audit Office audits the individual accounts of 92 non-departmental public bodies.

Mr. Morgan : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Can he comment on the written reply that I received from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in January which referred to the principle that the choice between having bodies audited by private accountants or by the NAO is normally related to how quasi-commercial are the activities of that public body? Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that no reason will be given to the House relating to lack of resources or staffing in the NAO, for which I believe the hon. Gentleman has a responsibility, as grounds for putting the auditing of grant-maintained schools out to private accountants? A school must be the last public body that one could possibly think of as being quasi-commercial, so the auditing of grant-maintained schools should clearly not be carried out by private accountants.

Sir Peter Hordern : I understand that some schools are required to appoint an external auditor and to provide the Department of Education with annual audited accounts. The audit arrangements will be covered by a code of practice on which accountancy bodies and the National Audit Office have been consulted. The hon. Gentleman might also like to know that the Comptroller and Auditor General has rights to inspect the accounts and relevant records of individual schools and to carry out value-for-money studies. The National Audit Office is

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currently undertaking a study of the financial control of grant-maintained schools, during which it will exercise those inspection rights. The hon. Gentleman is quite right : there is no question of the National Audit Office suffering from lack of funds.

TRANSPORT

Underground Railways

11. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what comparisons his Department has done between the London underground and the Paris metro.

The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris) : My Department has not carried out any comparisons between the London underground and the Paris metro, but I have taken a close interest in the joint report produced by the London Research Centre and its French opposite number, and it is clear from their work that the two railway systems face very different problems and serve very different markets.

Mr. Cohen : If the Minister has seen that report from the London Research Centre and the Ile de France regional council, he will have seen that 9 per cent. of French trains and 20 per cent. of London trains are overcrowded ; that one in five trains in Paris and one in two in London are more than 22 years old ; that fares are three times higher in London than in Paris, and that the city centre rail network in Paris is "overwhelmingly superior" to that in London. Does that not prove that socialist planning in public transport is far superior to capitalist neglect?

Mr. Norris : No, Madam Speaker. The hon. Gentleman is extraordinarily selective in the little gems that he picks from the report because he thinks that they suit his case, and he completely ignores the £3.5 billion which is to be spent on the London underground in the next three years.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

Clocking-on

31. Mr. Skinner : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will now end the system of clocking on and off for workers in and around the House.

Mr. Beith : I understand that the relevant Departments of the House have no plans to do so.

Mr. Skinner : It is a scandal that some of the lowest paid people in this building--canteen workers--have to clock on, while Ministers are carted in chauffeur-driven cars in order to come here to vote. Those canteen workers earn £100 a week, and they can lose £7 a time for being a few minutes late. At night when they knock off, if the House finishes straight after a 10 o'clock vote those people, many of them women, are turned out without a chance to go home in a taxi while Ministers are carted from one oak-panelled study to the next. The Government talk about a classless society and we have citizens charters coming out of every Minister's earholes, yet those people are treated like chattels. Get something done!

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Mr. Beith : The time recording system is necessary to establish overtime payments correctly and it is used by every member of the Refreshment Department up to and including the Director of Catering.

Mr. Skinner : The lowest paid.

Mr. Beith : The hon. Gentleman gives a misleading account of the rates of pay provided. He should also take account of the fact that transport is provided for late sittings of the House--

Mr. Skinner : Not at 10 o'clock.

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked his question. Let us hear Mr. Beith.

Mr. Beith : I know of no representations from unions representing the staff that the system of time recording should be abolished.

Members and Staff (Working Conditions)

32. Mr. Tredinnick : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what assessment the Commission has made of the implications of the recommendation in the report of the Select Committee on Sittings of the House for working conditions of hon. Members and staff.

Mr. Beith : The Commission has made no assessment of the possible implications of the report on the sittings of the House because of its responsibility to ensure that appropriate staffing arrangements are made to accommodate whatever hours of sitting the House may determine.

Mr. Tredinnick : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if the procedures of the House are streamlined and become more efficient, not only Members but staff will benefit as a result of the great reduction in late- night sittings, many of which are deemed by hon. Members to be unnecessary?

Mr. Beith : Yes, Madam Speaker. That is my view, but it is for the Commission to provide appropriate staffing arrangements for whatever the House may determine.

Mr. Bryan Davies : Will the right hon. Gentleman support the provision of nursery facilities for the children of the workers who support us in this House?

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is gazumping a later question. If he rephrases his question so that it refers to sittings of the House, I will hear it.

Mr. Davies : My question relates to whatever hours the House works--

Madam Speaker : Order. That was not the original question. We must move on now.

Members' Facilities

33. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what plans he has to improve facilities in the House to assist hon. Members in the discharge of their duties.

Mr. Beith : Responsibility for proposing new facilities for hon. Members rests with the domestic Committees,

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which are expected to meet shortly. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the developing plans for the construction of new office accommodation on the phase 2 site and the introduction of a new computer network for Members and their staff. I shall be happy to pass on to the relevant Committees any other suggestions that the hon. Gentleman may have.

Mr. Bruce : Has the right hon. Gentleman thought about the possibility of giving hon. Members an option of staff based in the House or more money to provide facilities outside, perhaps in their constituencies? That would take the pressure off existing facilities and allow a much quicker raising of standards for Members and secretaries working together in the House.

Mr. Beith : Those matters do not fall within the responsibility of the Commission. The House may hear more about the subject shortly, but not from the Commission.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Agencies

40. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Lord President of the Council, pursuant to his answer of 12 May, Official Report, column 79, what representations he has received calling for early action to make replies from next steps agencies more accessible to hon. Members and the general public.

Mr. Newton : I have not received any further representations. The House authorities have received our proposals for publishing agency chief executives' replies. We remain hopeful that the House will take an early decision, now that the Administration Committee has been reconstituted.

Mr. Flynn : Representations from 208 hon. Members are contained in early-day motion 1. Is it not a continuing disgrace that the increasing number of answers from next steps agencies are not readily accessible, except in this marvellous publication produced by my office and the Rowntree trust? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman ensure that we return to the previous system, whereby traditionally Ministers answered questions for their areas of responsibility, and those then appeared automatically in Hansard. Is not the Government's commitment to sweeping away the cobwebs of secrecy gossamer-thin?

Mr. Newton : The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to agree with the latter part of his remarks. As for his gesture in waving at me his excellent document, "Open Lines", I thought that he was going to complain about our nationalisation proposals in that respect. As he knows, we have proposed to the appropriate Committee that the reply should be published in a way that would be more convenient to the House and the public. I hope that an early decision will be made on that proposal and that it will be the clearest demonstration that there is no thought of trying to conceal useful information from those who should have it.

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Working Conditions

41. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to report on the question of hours and working conditions in the House of Commons.

Mr. Newton : I intend to arrange a debate on the report on the Select Committee on Sittings of the House before the House rises for the summer recess.

Mr. Skinner : If the Government got rid of moonlighting in this gentlemen's club--250 Tory Members in the last Parliament had more than 500 moonlighting jobs between them--we could start talking about changing our hours. Is not the real reason why Parliament does not start until 2.30 pm so that Tory Members can make money in the law courts and board rooms and then turn up later? If the Government want to improve facilities, would it not be a good idea to use the Robing Room as a nursery and change the Royal Gallery into a cafeteria for visitors? If the royal family keeps pushing the self-destruct button, we shall get it.

Mr. Newton : Once again, the hon. Gentleman has enlivened our proceedings. I shall confine my comments, for the time being, to the more mundane business of looking at the recommendations of the Jopling report.

Mr. Wilkinson : Will the European Community's working time directive apply to the working of the House?

Mr. Newton : As there is no such thing as a working time directive at present--at least, not an agreed one--I am not in a position to judge.

Office Costs Allowance

42. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to announce the results of the review of the office costs allowance ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Newton : Before the summer recess.

Mr. Mullin : Is the Lord President aware that a number of unscrupulous newspapers, not least that fascist rag The Sun, have been seeking to pretend that the office costs allowance is merely an extension of our salaries? Is he aware that many of us, particularly those who operate offices in their constituencies, subsidise the office costs allowance from our own pockets? Will he make it clear in the House today that, whatever view the Government take on the final figures, this is an argument about the quality of service that we can provide for our constituents?

Mr. Newton : Without endorsing the language that the hon. Gentleman used, which came close to being as colourful as that of his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), I would certainly endorse the general proposition that there is a clear distinction to be drawn between the salaries of Members of Parliament and the amounts that they are paid to acquire the necessary assistance to do the job that the public expect of them.

Mrs. Currie : Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are Members of this House with about 40,000 constituents and Members of this House with more than 80,000 constituents, often scattered across large areas of the countryside while the allowance that we receive to serve our constituents is identical? That means that many

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Conservative Members also have to subsidise the allowances to a substantial degree. Does my right hon. Friend also agree that it is disgraceful for some of our newspapers to imply that Members who employ members of their families, particularly their wives, as secretaries, should do so for nothing and expect those women to work for nothing at all?

Mr. Newton : I certainly agree that the distinction to which I referred in response to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) and which my hon. Friend has also drawn should be taken into account by those who comment on these matters. As for the earlier part of her question, I acknowledge some of the problems caused to Members on both sides--my hon. Friend may be right to think that the problem applies particularly to Conservative Members--by disparities in the size of their constituencies. It would be a good deal easier to tackle them through the action that we are taking over the boundary commission than to attempt to devise some allowance related to the size of constituencies.

Dr. John Cunningham : Should we not expect but also set aside the more misleading statements from some of our national newspapers about the allowances paid to Members to employ people the more effectively to represent their constituents? Will not the Leader of the House and his Cabinet colleagues accept that the longer they put off this decision the more likely it is that the groundswell of misleading innuendo and abuse of Members of Parliament will grow? Why does he not take the decision now and get on with it?

Mr. Newton : I agree with the first half of the hon. Gentleman's question. I assure him that there is no desire unnecessarily to prolong this matter, but, as he will see in due course, this is a complicated and substantial report and it is right to look at it carefully before bringing it to the House.

Select Committees

43. Mr. Alton : To ask the Lord President of the Council what steps he is taking to speed up the nomination of Select Committees.

Mr. Newton : We are making good progress with the setting up of Select Committees with, for example, the Public Accounts Committee, the European Scrutiny Committee and the four domestic Committees already reconstituted. I hope that we shall have the remainder of the Committees-- that is, the departmental Committees--in place after tomorrow's debate on the motion that I have tabled in that respect.

Mr. Alton : I welcome that news, but can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that nominations for the departmental Select Committees will be placed before the Committee of

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Selection on Wednesday and that the most senior members of those Committees can then convene meetings, so that the Committees can meet at least before the House rises for the summer recess?

Mr. Newton : My understanding is that the usual way of proceeding after nominations by the Committee of Selection is that the senior members call meetings--but the timing of the recommendations by the Committee of Selection is a matter not for me but for the Committee.

London Question Time

44. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to institute a Question Time for London ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Newton : I have no specific proposals for a separate Question Time for London, but hon. Members representing London constituencies can, of course, ask questions of relevance to London to any of the Departments of State.

Mr. Greenway : I appreciate my right hon. Friend's reply, but will he accept that London has a special interest for the nation? London has 84 Members of Parliament. Northern Ireland has 17, Wales has 32 and Scotland has 72. The latter all have their own Question Times, so why should not there be a Question Time for London which takes account of the special problems and opportunities of London?

Mr. Newton : I do not think that it would be appropriate to move in quite the way that my hon. Friend suggests--unless there were a Minister for London, which I understand that my hon. Friend does not support, although I hope that he has not been misrepresented to me in that respect. My hon. Friend shows considerable and commendable ingenuity in putting questions about London in a variety of ways--most recently, as I heard for myself, during today's transport questions. I hope that that is of some comfort to him.

Mr. Simon Hughes : As an alternative to that, when the Leader of the House has completed his review of a programme for parliamentary business throughout the year, so that we shall have notice of what is to happen, could he formalise the occasional London debate so that, first, it is agreed that there will be an annual London debate and, secondly, we know roughly when it is to take place?

Mr. Newton : This is turning into something like business questions, but that is fair enough. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would expect me to answer his question on the hoof, but I will certainly bear it in mind.

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