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[Interruption.] No, it was always clear that the measure was for a finite period of time to bring much-needed relief, liquidity and some support to the property market during a difficult time. The fact that we have been able to reduce the average mortgage interest rate from 15.4 per cent. to less than 11 per cent. shows that the Government's policies are working and we are moving in the right line. To abandon those policies with public expenditure commitments that would derail us would be imprudent and the Government could not responsibly offer such a course to the House.

Therefore, although I understand the concerns and representations of all my hon. Friends, I hope that they will understand that, for public expenditure and other reasons, it is essential and important that we revert to the imposition of stamp duty on the date originally given.

Dr. Marek : We have had a good debate and, in some ways, its nub was when the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) intervened in the Minister's speech and presented him with the option of cutting the duty on share transfers or extending the moratorium on stamp duty. Presented with such an option, I should have thought that share transactions could bear tax for a few months longer so that the Government could find the extra £220 million necessary for them to accept the Opposition's new clause. That would be straightforward because, ultimately, getting the economy right and lifting the country out of recession are far more important than allowing shares to be exchanged without tax for a few more months. No harm would befall the City or the international capital markets if the Government chose to do that.

The Minister tried to muddy the waters a little by implying that the Government had a good record on interest rates because they were already down to 11 per cent. So they were from the high of 15.4 per cent. that we experienced for a year and a half a few years ago. Interest rates were above 10 per cent. for some 20 per cent. of the time in which the last Labour Government were in office, whereas they have been below 10 per cent. for only 20 per cent. of the time in which the present Conservative Government have been in office. When hon. Members compare the record of the past Labour Government with the present Conservative Administration they will see that, by and large, interest rates are high when a Conservative Government are in office and much lower under a Labour Government. There was a secret agenda for the Conservative Government to have high interest rates so that they could have high real interest rates.

I agree with the Economic Secretary that this has been a good debate, in which many different views have been expressed. It was nice to hear speeches from seven or eight Conservative Members and eight Labour Members. The Labour speeches were all individual and targeted at the problem. My hon. Friends made the case for the new clause. Although it will not solve the problems of the recession, if the Government are not prepared to do anything else at least it will do something to help the country when it comes out of recession. We were treated to amazing pirouettes by a number of Conservative Members. I shall start with the hon. Member for Crosby (Sir M. Thornton). He said that it did not matter what is contained in an early- day motion because it is simply an expression of opinion. He invited us to believe that if the House did not like a particular set of opinions, it did not matter because he had plenty of others.

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I wonder what his constituents in Crosby will think. It is hardly worth him putting his name to an early-day motion if, at the slightest pressure from the Whips, he says, "I do not really mean it, or if I do, I do not mean it that much. I shall exercise my beliefs in the right Lobby in the interests of my constituents--but I shall be persuaded by the Whips to go elsewhere."

That was not the view of the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), who made a principled speech. He did not say that he would support the Opposition, but he said that he would not support the Government. He was the only Conservative Member to say that and he has my respect for doing so.

The hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend) said that, as there are still six weeks to go before the relief from stamp duty ends, there is still plenty of time. He implied that we should ask for a recall of Parliament on 21 August to debate the issue. I do not think that there is much chance of that. Although there are six weeks left, people cannot suddenly buy a house. They have to exchange contracts, proper searches have to be made and the conveyance procedure must be carried out. Indeed, moving from one house to another depends on many agreements in a chain. All that takes time, but there is no more time. The Government now know what removing the exemption from stamp duty will mean to the housing market. Six weeks may appear to be a long time, but it is not.

The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) made a very different speech and I agree with the Economic Secretary's analysis of it. Most Labour Members felt that the hon. Gentleman made some good points. However, as the Economic Secretary said, it is not a matter of where we want to start from, but where we are now. I have a great deal of sympathy for what the hon. Member for Buckingham said. He spoke his mind and added to the debate.

We believe that there are better ways of spending £220 million--such as helping manufacturing industry or, if possible, reducing interest rates. The Government either cannot or will not do that. Because of that attitude, the new clause would help when the economy eventually begins to move out of recession. That has not begun yet, which is why the exemption from stamp duty has not really been successful--but it would be when we do begin to move-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) has not been here during the debate. I hope that she has dined well. Making silly noises and signs does not help or add to a debate in which about eight Conservative Members and eight Opposition Members have spoken--and which, by and large, has been one of the best debates in the House for some time.

Madam Speaker : Order. The House is not giving the hon. Member a fair hearing. Right hon. and hon. Members who want to hold conversations must either do so quietly or remove themselves from the Chamber so that the rest of us can hear the hon. Member.

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sure that we are all extremely keen to hear the hon. Gentleman, but I am not sure that his microphone is working. He is almost inaudible to those of us seated on these Benches.

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Madam Speaker : I am not surprised that the hon. Lady did not hear. I was watching her closely, and she was engrossed in conversation.

Dr. Marek : That has enlivened the debate a little. I am reaching the end of my remarks.

The continuation of stamp duty relief would be useful if we move out of the recession. The cost of £220 million could be budgeted. The duty on share transactions can be delayed if the Government so choose. That presents them with a clear choice, but I understand that they have decided to terminate the relief in August.

We will see how many Conservative Members turn on their heads and vote for the cessation of stamp duty relief and for a continuing crisis in housing. I urge my hon. Friends to join me in the Lobby in voting for new clause 3. It is not the complete answer. There are better ways of spending the money and of helping manufacturing industry, which is absolutely necessary if we are to survive as an industrial nation. However, I invite the House to join me in voting for the new clause because it will provide some help in alleviating the crisis in housing that we all want to see come to an end at the earliest opportunity.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :

The House divided : Ayes 281, Noes 311.

Division No. 54] [9.57 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Margaret

Beggs, Roy

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyce, Jimmy

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Ms Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ronald (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Cann, James

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clapham, Michael

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Coffey, Ms Ann

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Dr John (C'p'l'nd)

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Denham, John

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, William

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fisher, Mark

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Derek (B'p Auckland)

Foster, Donald (Bath)

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