---

Stewart, Allan

Sumberg, David

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M. (Solihull)

Thomason, Roy

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thornton, Sir Malcolm

Thurnham, Peter

Tipping, Paddy

Tredinnick, David

Trend, Michael

Twinn, Dr Ian

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Viggers, Peter

Waldegrave, Rt Hon William

Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

Waller, Gary

Ward, John

Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

Wareing, Robert N

Watson, Mike

Watts, John

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Sir John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wiggin, Jerry

Wilshire, David

Wood, Timothy

Yeo, Tim

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Bob Dunn and

Sir Michael Neubert.

NOES

Alton, David

Barnes, Harry

Beggs, Roy

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cryer, Bob

Dafis, Cynog

Dalyell, Tam

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Column 945

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Faulds, Andrew

Flynn, Paul

Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

Foster, Donald (Bath)

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Kate

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Janner, Greville

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C & S)

Kirkwood, Archy

Lewis, Terry

Livingstone, Ken

Macdonald, Calum

Maginnis, Ken

Mahon, Alice

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

Morley, Elliot

Paisley, Rev Ian

Pickthall, Colin

Pike, Peter L.

Raynsford, Nick

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Skinner, Dennis

Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Str'gf'd)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Trimble, David

Tyler, Paul

Welsh, Andrew

Tellers for the Noes :

Ms. Liz Lynne and

Mr. Alex Salmond.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Transport

Ordered,

That Mr. Robert Adley, Mr. Jack Aspinwall, Mr. Matthew Banks, Mr. Peter Bottomley, Mr. Terry Dicks, Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody, Mr. Alan Haselhurst, Mr. Keith Hill, Mr. John McFall, Mr. Andrew Mackinlay and Mr. David Marshall be members of the Transport Committee.-- [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.]

Treasury and Civil Service

Ordered,

That Ms. Diane Abbott, Sir Thomas Arnold, Mr. A. J. Beith, Mr. Nicholas Budgen, Mrs. Judith Chaplin, Mr. Quentin Davies, Mr. John Garrett, Mr. Barry Legg, Mr. Giles Radice, Mr. Brian Sedgemore and Mr. John Watts be members of the Treasury and Civil Service Committee.-- [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.]

Welsh Affairs

Ordered,

That Mr. Alex Carlile, Mr. Jonathan Evans, Mr. Roger Evans, Mr. David Hanson, Mr. Jon Owen Jones, Mr. Elfyn Llwyd, Mr. Peter Luff, Mr. Rod Richards, Mr. Mark Robinson, Mr. Walter Sweeney and Mr. Gareth Wardell be members of the Welsh Affairs Committee.-- [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.]

Select Committees (Interests)

Ordered,

That this House takes note of the First Report of the Select Committee on Members' Interests of Session 1990-91 (HC 108) relating to the interests of Chairmen and Members of Select Committees, and approves the recommendations of the Committee relating to declaration of interest in Select Committees (paragraphs 8 to 16), withdrawal from Committee proceedings (paragraph 24) and procedures prior to the election to a Chairman (paragraph 25).-- [Mr. Newton.]

Business of the House

Ordered,

That, at the sitting on Wednesday 15th July, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business), the Speaker shall put the Question necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of Mr. Secretary Patten relating to Education not later than one and a half hours after the Motion has been entered upon ; and the said Motion may be proceeded with after the expiry of the time for opposed business.-- [Mr. Newton.]

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Column 946

Social Security Fraud

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. David Davis.]

12.46 am

Mr. David Evans (Welwyn Hatfield) : Little did I think, when I applied for this Adjournment debate, that it would follow such an exciting evening. I hope that my contribution can match up to the proceedings so far.

After two world wars--in particular the last--Great Britain was destitute. Rationing had become a way of life. The aim of the welfare state was to create a land fit for heroes. Today, unfortunately, it has produced a land fit for scroungers. As this country has become richer, our spending on welfare programmes has accelerated. By far the largest item of national expenditure is the £71,000 million that we spend each year on social security. For many, that sustains a gravy train that they have been riding all their lives.

The system is open to massive abuse. The head of the organised fraud unit at the Benefits Agency has said that it is easier to counterfeit a benefit book or a giro cheque than to go into a bank with a shotgun. There are fewer risks, and the returns are just as good. A criminal with 100 stolen security books could draw £8,000 a week.

Tonight, however, I shall concentrate not on elaborate frauds but rather on the routine deceptions perpetuated by millions of people every day. Throughout the country, thieves, cheats and criminals exploit the benefit system. It caters for greed, not need. By tackling the problem with forceful measures, the Government would not be kicking people who are down ; rather they would be ensuring that a bigger slice of the cake was available to those who genuinely need it.

Since 1979, the Government have provided people with a multitude of incentives to work. For instance, they have reduced the basic rate of tax from 33p to 25p in the pound, and they have taken 1.5 million out of tax payment altogether. However, as well as waving a carrot, we must brandish a stick at those who scoff at such incentives and shy away from earning an honest living. It is about time the nanny state bared its teeth.

Essentially, social security fraud involves two types of criminal. The first may be called simply the layabout. At present, there are 841,000 long -term unemployed people--men and women who have been out of work for more than a year. I believe that, of those, 500,000 have no intention whatsoever of ever working again. They blatantly milk the system, and have probably not missed an Oval test match or a set at Wimbledon for years.

I am delighted that this problem is recognised even by Opposition Members. Indeed, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) recently said :

"Labour has been linked with freeloaders for too long." Who would argue with that? The hon. Gentleman continued : "I know ordinary folk who expect rewards for hard work. They have no time for people who lie in bed when they are fit and able to get a job."

Constituents write to me and say that layabouts in their street laugh at them for going to work. They rightly resent having to subsidise their neighbours' extended leisure time. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall quote part of a letter that I received only this week :

"Dear Mr. Evans,

The attached newspaper cut about your efforts on the

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