House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jul 1992

Mr. Maclean : I will not take lessons from the hon. Lady as her party slashed expenditure on our water industry when it was last in power and seems to gloat at every opportunity when Britain is subject to legal proceedings. Labour Members automatically make the assumption that Britain must be wrong. It is about time they stood up for Britain on occasions.

I am not prepared to comment on rumours that the hon. Lady may care to quote about what may be happening in DG11. It is clear that we want to clean up our beaches. Even without the directive, we would want to make substantial progress in cleaning up our beaches and improving our water supply. The British Government will continue to do that, irrespective of pressure from whatever source.

Mr. Knapman : As our private water companies have access to private capital, we shall comply with the directive, but what evidence does my hon. Friend have that our EC partners are making any real efforts to comply?

Mr. Maclean : My hon. Friend makes a valid point. That is why we have continually stressed that it is vital that enforcement of whatever EC directives are agreed is carried out at European level. One of our priorities in our presidency will be to insist that enforcement is even throughout the EC. We shall seek to introduce measures to that effect. We should like to see an inspectorate of inspectorates to carry out that task. Certainly, we do not want any diminution of enforcement or repatriation of enforcement to national authorities.

Sites of Special Scientific Interest

11. Mr. Kevin Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the latest information he has available about damage to sites of special scientific interest.

17. Mr. Olner : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the latest information he has available about damage to sites of special scientific interest.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tony Baldry) : The latest available information on damage to SSSIs icontained in the final report of the former Nature Conservancy Council, a copy of which is in the Library. In the period 1 April 1990 to 31 March 1991, of the 3,536 SSSIs in England notified under the 1981 Act, 149 suffered some damage, and of that number 22 suffered damage from which the site could not recover in the short term.

Mr. Hughes : Despite what the Minister has just said, damage appears to be continuing at an alarming rate on sites of special scientific interest. That is borne out in a recent report by Wildlife Link. When will the Minister and the Government cut out the political rhetoric and gesturing and do something positive to protect SSSIs, such

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as making resources available so that local authorities can revoke planning permission and put a stop to peat extraction on SSSIs?

Mr. Baldry : We have a rich tapestry of protection for the countryside. The SSSI system is designed to identify land of scientific interest and provide a means of protecting such sites. Where we have seen any weakness in that protection, we have taken measures to strengthen it by legislation such as the Wildlife and Countryside (Amendment) Act 1991 and also by the removal of permitted development rights in respect of temporary uses of land. Later this year we shall produce planning policy guidance notes on nature conservation. All those measures are intended to enhance the SSSI protection system.

Mr. Olner : Is the Minister aware of a site in my constituency called Ensors pool which is in great danger of being filled and used as a receptor for waste? Will he make a decision? Will he take note of what English Nature says in calling for the site to be classified as an SSSI? Will he ensure that the site is fully protected so that residents in my constituency can enjoy that part of the countryside which should be rightfully theirs? Will the Minister make a statement on that?

Mr. Baldry : The notification of a site as an SSSI signals to the planning authorities the wildlife importance of the site. That is a material factor to be taken into account when considering any planning application that might affect the site. I am sure that that is what will happen with the site to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention.

Mr. Ian Bruce : Does my hon. Friend agree that we must not be too inflexible about the use of SSSIs? Having alerted the Secretary of State to the problems of an area within an SSSI, it is more sensible to ensure that if a new road scheme or development is to affect a site, the flora and fauna from it will be protected in a different area. In south Dorset most SSSIs are on the sites of abandoned quarries.

Mr. Baldry : The SSSI system is there to identify and protect land of scientific interest and was set up by the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. It is a framework which works extremely well. Of course we keep the system continuously under review. Owners and occupiers of land must be consulted prior to the designation of any SSSI and that provides a good balance.

Sir Anthony Grant : Will my hon. Friend consider carefully Brampton wood, which is in the constituency of our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister but is also enjoyed by my constituents? It contains sites of special scientific interest and is being sold by the Ministry of Defence. Will my hon. Friend have discussions with Ministers in that Department to ensure that the amenities of my constituents and those of the Prime Minister are duly protected?

Mr. Baldry : My hon. Friend can be assured that any SSSI, in whichever constituency it lies, will be given proper protection.

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Poll Tax

12. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the cost to date of introducing, administering and collecting the poll tax, including the cost of Government-initiated relief schemes, broken down by year.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robin Squire) : The cost of preparing for the community charge was about £270 million. The cost of administering and collecting the community charge each year has been about £500 million, or between £12 and £15 per charge payer. Relief schemes do not add to overall public expenditure. However, they have ensured that the burden of local taxation has been reduced to 15 per cent. of local government spending.

Mr. Canavan : Will the Minister tell us the whole truth and admit that the Government had squandered more than £14 billion on the poll tax before eventually being forced to admit that it was all a terrible mistake? Does the Minister realise that if local government representatives were guilty of such irresponsible waste of public money they would undoubtedly be surcharged and banned from office for many years? Why not surcharge and ban from office all those Ministers who were responsible for the poll tax?

Mr. Squire : The hon. Member makes a bogus and entirely false point. He has become something of a phaneromaniac when it comes to the poll tax. You will know, Madam Speaker, that that is someone who has a compulsion to keep picking at something and returning to it. If one leaves it alone, it sometimes gets better--and something better is coming in : it is called the council tax. Above all, the hon. Gentleman is not best placed to ask questions about the costs of administering the poll tax, given his early appearance as a poll tax rebel, which would have encouraged thousands of others to push up the cost of collecting that tax.

Mr. Riddick : Does my hon. Friend agree that many of my constituents and many people in this country are thankful to the Government for introducing the relief schemes that have helped to reduce poll tax bills? Were not those relief schemes introduced as a direct response to the incompetence and profligacy of Labour councils throughout the nation?

Mr. Squire : My hon. Friend is entirely right on both points.

Carbon Dioxide Emissions

13. Mrs. Roche : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the levels of reduction of carbon dioxide emissions he expects to achieve under current policies.

Mr. Maclean : I refer the hon. Member to the copy of the "Report on UK National Programme for Limiting Carbon Dioxide Emissions", placed in the Library on 15 May, in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves).

Mrs. Roche : On two separate occasions this afternoon, the Government have been given the opportunity to answer this question clearly, but each time they have

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refused to do so. Will the Government stabilise emissions by the year 2000, regardless of what other countries do --yes or no?

Mr. Maclean : We have made our position clear. We made it clear at Rio, we made it clear in the European Community, and only last week we made it clear in the Munich communique . I have nothing to add to that.

Rural Housing

14. Mr. Nigel Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assistance is available to local authorities to tackle housing needs in rural areas.

Mr. Baldry : We have taken a series of measures since 1988 to boost the supply of low-cost housing in rural areas through local authorities and housing associations. The Housing Corporation has a clear target for new social housing in villages through its special rural programme under which £80 million has been allocated to rural local authorities for 1991-92 and 1992-93 to produce new low-cost homes. New planning guidance permits the development of low-cost housing for local needs on small sites not otherwise designated for housing.

Mr. Evans : Will my hon. Friend accept the thanks of my local authority, which is not a whingeing socialist local authority always complaining that it has no money for its housing needs? My local authority is working in close association with four housing associations to meet housing needs in our rural area. It has won bids for £4 million in grants for rural housing over three years. Much of that money has been paid to the housing associations because of their past effectiveness and not just because of needs. Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that money will be given to local authorities and to housing associations in future because of their past performance and not simply because of needs?

Mr. Baldry : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am glad to say that numerous housing associations are active in the Ribble valley. They are doing extremely good work in partnership with the local authority which is delivering well in its enabling role. I am glad to say that almost £2 million is being invested in new rural housing in the Ribble valley this year. That is very good news.

Mr. Trimble : I was especially glad to hear the last part of the Minister's original reply, which referred to planning guidelines. Does the Minister agree that it is important to ensure that housing becomes available in rural areas for local people, and that for that reason it is essential that the cost be kept down? Does he agree that the best way to keep the cost down is to increase the supply significantly?

Mr. Baldry : I entirely agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's question. That is why we have clear planning policy guidance and why local authorities now have to bring forward development plans in which they have to identify clearly land for housing provision for the coming years.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton : I fully support what my hon. Friend has said, but does he accept that the wealthier a rural area is, the greater are the problems among the lower paid in the area? Does he accept that there is a need for greater resources to be devoted to areas such as that

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covered by Macclesfield borough council to take account of the fact that many people in rural areas, especially young people, can no longer afford to live there?

Mr. Baldry : I am always glad to have my hon. Friend's support. We have taken forward initiatives because we acknowledge that there are particular problems in rural areas. It is because we recognise that there are challenges that the Housing Corporation has a special rural programme and there is the potential for special capital allocations to rural local authorities for the reasons that my hon. Friend has outlined.

Mr. Soley : When will the Government take seriously the voices of their Conservative local authorities, of the rural housing associations and, increasingly, of their own Back-Bench Members, such as the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), who is not a whinger as the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) would have us believe? When will the Government listen to those voices and recognise that they are saying that the villages of Britain are dying on their feet because of a lack of affordable housing? As the hon. Member for Macclesfield said, the problem is especially serious for young people whose roots are in villages and country towns, but whose futures are in a housing queue which gets constantly longer.

Mr. Baldry : This year we are investing £2 billion through the Housing Corporation for new, affordable social housing. We are committed to do that in the coming three years. A proportion of that money will go to rural areas. In addition, rural areas will have access to their own housing investment money. The Government are determined to ensure that every family has a decent home in which to live, whether in the town or in the countryside.

Mr. Dunn : In the context of housing needs and preserving village life, will my hon. Friend assure the House that every effort will be made to prevent the illegal encroachment of traveller families in our villages?

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Mr. Baldry : As my hon. Friend knows, we are committed to reviewing the Caravan Sites Act 1968 and I hope that we shall be able to bring forward that review in the not-too-distant future.

Social Housing

15. Mr. Raynsford : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will publish estimates of the need for social housing in England.

Sir George Young : We publish projections of future household numbers based on demographic trends. It is not practical to sub-divide that and make a single estimate of the need for social housing because of the subjective judgment involved in assessing who should have access to social housing and the volatility of some of the factors influencing any assessment, such as house prices, incomes and interest rates.

Mr. Raynsford : Will the Minister reconsider his answer? Will he recognise that the Audit Commission not only made it perfectly clear in its recent report that it was possible and appropriate to carry out and publish such estimates, but its first recommendation said that the Government should publish estimates of housing needs. When will the Government take housing needs in this country seriously?

Sir George Young : I have in front of me some relevant paragraphs from the Audit Commission, which support what I have just said : "Definitions of need are value judgments The point on the spectrum at which the definition of need is drawn is a matter of judgment and is partly conditioned by available resources". It goes on to say that such forecasts are not easy. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that there are imponderables which are difficult to forecast, some of which I have just listed.

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