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Mr. Gallie : With the greatest respect, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that the Bill addresses law and order matters which are of vital concern to my constituents who are suffering at the hands of people who are now in prison. The intention of the Bill is to reduce the number of people in prisons and to put people back on to the streets at an earlier stage. I believe that my points are very relevant to that issue.
I want now to consider the number of police on the streets of Ayr and to emphasise the difficulties that they have in apprehending criminals and solving crimes. I point to the --
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have tried to be gentle with the hon. Gentleman. However, I must make it clear to him that he must relate his remarks to the Second Reading of the Bill. This is not a general debate on law and order.
Mr. Gallie : Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have some difficulty because I intended to cover the issues in a wider context. I understand that the Committee will take a line-by-line approach on such matters. Having said that, I am obliged to take note of the Chair's comments and I will attempt to confine myself to the Bill as closely as I can.
In doing that, I must point to the reasons why people are imprisoned. Why are they there? They are in prison because they have committed misdemeanours, sinned against society and because their crimes have created problems in society.
Mr. John McAllion (Dundee, East) : Why are you here?
Mr. Gallie : I am here because the people of Ayr had the good sense to elect a Conservative Member who stood for the Union and I am grateful to them.
I hope, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you will show me some indulgence if I address one aspect of the present situation--the crime of housebreaking. Given the way in which housebreaking is treated in the courts, I believe that there is a problem. Housebreaking is treated in a manner which does not recognise the full implications of its effect on society.
Housebreaking can be a violation. It gets into the hearts and minds of the people against whom such deeds have
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been perpetrated. There must surely be lengthy custodial sentences imposed on those who carry out such deeds. I believe that that does not happen at the moment. If the Bill were to be implemented, the situation for those who ultimately find their way into a custodial situation would be worsened because release would come sooner and the police would have greater problems.When I consider housebreaking, I think of the pain and anguish that is suffered principally, once again, by the elderly. I have sat in courts recently and witnessed the sentencing policy of various sheriffs. It is unusual that a custodial sentence is passed for housebreaking. I am led to believe that it takes about 14 convictions before someone is put behind prison walls. I feel that much consideration is given to the minds and hearts of prisoners before such a step is taken. It would be entirely wrong to reduce the sentences given to such people in an effort rationally to reduce the number of custodial sentences.
I have to confess that in some matters I shall perhaps require your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman has already required it.
Mr. Gallie : I beg your pardon, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman should sit when I stand. I was making the passing observation that the hon. Gentleman has had his full ration of indulgence. He should now stick to the Bill or sit down.
Mr. Gallie : As far as I am aware, it is possible to recommend to the Secretary of State and the Minister measures which could be added to the Bill. I suggest that my hon. Friend the Minister should consider the Conservative party manifesto pledge to give the prosecution the right of appeal against lenient sentences. Here we have an opportunity to inject that measure into a criminal proceedings Bill.
What does the Bill offer? It offers a means of reducing time spent in prison by short-term, long-term and life prisoners. I agree that prisoners must have an incentive, but I suggest that when the public hear that in future 12-year sentences will be six-year sentences, questions will be asked and will have to be answered.
I welcome the proposals in the Bill on supervision. Supervision is integral to the good management of the proposals that are on the table. However, I must ask : what is the purpose of imprisonment? We must not forget the punishment element. However, I also acknowledge the treatment aspect, which the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) highlighted. I do not demur, but the all-important point is that prisons exist to protect the public. That must be the first priority. Both actual and potential victims of crime must be the first priority.
I noted the comments of the hon. Member for Monklands, West on the rights of prisoners. I remind my hon. Friend the Minister that the rights of the public at large must be his first consideration. There is cause for close scrutiny and amendment of the Bill in Committee. I look forward to participating in that. Part II of the Bill certainly has much to commend it. For example, it
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increases police powers to a degree. I welcome the use of DNA tests and, above all, the changes in the procedures when children give evidence. They are of great value.I also welcome the reduction in the need for witnesses to appear in court. That in itself has much to offer. The changes involving live television transmissions must be supported and welcomed by all hon. Members. They can help the cause of justice. The measures in part II give me good reason to support the Second Reading.
I welcome the comments by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on clause 32. He has suggested a vital amendment which I feel that the whole House will welcome.
7.35 pm
Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, Govan) : I rise as the new Member of Parliament for Glasgow, Govan to speak for the first time, having spent a period listening to and watching the behaviour of the House with some interest. I recognise that becoming a Member of Parliament is a considerable transition from being a big fish in a small pool in local goverment--even though that pool is perhaps too large for some who are presently engaged in filling bits of it in and breaking the rest up into puddles. It is a difficult transition. I hope that I shall be able to manage it with the success that many of my predecessors from local government, especially on this side of the House, have managed it.
I should like to start by speaking briefly about my constituency. It has to be recognised that it is not homogeneous but is composed of a variety of villages and communities, each of which has its own local pride and characteristics and many of which fiercely argue for recognition in their own right. It is certainly my intention to ensure that I do that as their local Member of Parliament. My constituency ranges from the very worst of underfunded public sector housing to the very best that Scotland has to offer. I shall turn to that subject in a moment. Govan is a community with which many people have a connection. There are Govanites in all worlds, ranging from sport and entertainment to the professions and industry. All those worlds have Govanites in prominent positions, to the advantage of all concerned.
I have met senior officers and Members of Parliament here who also have Govan connections. In particular, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) and my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) were at one time residents of Govan constituency. I believe that the hon. Member for Eastwood lived for some considerable time in the leafy suburb of Dumbreck before realising that it was not part of the Eastwood constituency. His subsequent move outwards shows the clear link that Govan has with its hinterland. That is why, as part of the local government reorganisation, consideration should be given to the recreation of the burgh of Govan in an expanded form, initially perhaps to include Govan, Pollok and Eastwood. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Eastwood is nodding. Already, G division of the police covers the area that I have mentioned. Indeed, the social work boundary is the same. So the recreation of the burgh is obviously worthy of consideration.
My area has suffered considerably from economic restructuring. It is now in the process of lifting itself up,
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reforming and regenerating work for its people. It has recently had such successes as the Govan garden festival, which was visited by many Members of Parliament. The Mod has been held in Govan and was a great success. Govan Shipbuilders has been reborn. Many hon. Members will be aware of the great work undertaken by the Govan Initiative--a partnership of the local authorities and the private sector, with co-operation, which I recognise, from central Government. The Initiative has done so much to create jobs in that community. Of course, many hon. Members will be aware of the activities and successes of Govan Rangers.Down the motorway a little distance is an airport which was built by the product of the merger of the burgh of Govan and Glasgow. That reorganisation resulted in a unity known as Glasgow. Therefore, the airport was named Glasgow airport. It seems relevant to me and to my constituents to say that, under the reorganisation, it should be renamed Govan airport, and the former small burghs within the Govan travel-to-work area should be drawn in as part of the greater Govan co-prosperity sphere. In that context, I am referring to Paisley and Renfrew, which would fit well into a new greater Govan area. Given that we are taking in the constituency of the Member for Eastwood, it would seem appropriate that Linwood, the home of the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde, whom I also mentioned, should be drawn into the area too.
Having reorganised local government, I must make it clear that I have no further territorial demands at present and must move on to the history of the area. Many hon. Members here will be aware that at various times part or all of my constituency has been represented by nationalist Members, but it is not nearly as well known that in the not-too-distant past parts of it were represented by Conservative Members.
Some parts of my constituency were also represented by Conservative councillors in the not-too-distant past, and it is difficult for me and for many of my constituents to understand why the Conservatives have not managed to put up a candidate in the regional council by-election, which is being held a week on Thursday, after similarly failing to put up a candidate in the previous council elections in the Moss Park ward of my constituency. That shows how low the Tories have sunk in that area. Having previously held sway there, they are no longer able to put up someone for office. I am not certain whether that is simply incompetence or whether they intend to seek anti-Labour votes for the nationalist candidate. It would not be the first time that there had been such a dialogue between those two parties to attack the Labour party. Each needs the other in a symbiotic relationship designed to oppose Labour. I condemn that cynical alliance, and I am sure that many of my colleagues do likewise.
The previous Member for whom I have the greatest respect served the constituency for what seemed a considerable time but was, upon reflection, too short. His style and manner may have led some to underestimate a formidable intellect, one consistently applied in the interests of his constituents and his party. Now, as we all know, he has gone to work mainly abroad, where he continues to make a valuable contribution to the common good. I and his former constituents hold him in the highest possible regard. My only regret is that time does not allow me further to sing the praises of Bruce Millan.
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My immediate predecessor also must command respect for his achievements. I have checked with the Library, which is unable to find any other Member in the recent past who played such a prominent role in three parties. I did not count Members who changed back to a party again or Liberals, with their various name changes. His is an achievement perhaps equalled but never surpassed. It was particularly noticeable that he was in the leadership of the Labour party when he left, went on to be the leader of the Scottish Labour party and was well on the way to being the leader of his third party before he left the House. He was a man of strong views. Even though the direction of those views changed from time to time, he none the less brought a fervour and passion of argument which was undiminished by the passage of time and which will be recognised by all here.My predecessor was fortunate in his choice of staff in the constituency who worked hard on the caseload which is such an important part of the work of a Member of Parliament. I and those that they help would not want this opportunity to pass without recognising publicly the sterling work that the staff of the previous Member undertook on behalf of people in the area. I think my predecessor made a contribution to Scottish politics which should not be underestimated or overlooked even by those who disagree with his content or style, or both.
On a personal note, may I say how much I owe to my father Graham, my mother Betty, my sister Moira, my wife Morag and my son and daughter, Colin and Christine. They have given me invaluable support, and without it I do not believe that I would be here today. One person outside my family helped me a great deal, more than they know--a former teacher of Galashiels Academy, who was politically active in the Liberal party. She was a teacher of modern studies who demonstrated to me teaching at its best. Isabel Hilton was able to communicate constructively and positively to young minds--minds developing but barely formed--a wider vision of society and of what was possible which left a lasting impact on me and on many of my colleagues. I pay tribute to her for the way in which she was able to open up in an unpartisan manner the world of politics to many of her young charges.
I am grateful to the Co-operative party for the support that it gave me before, during and after the election. On behalf of many new Members, I must say how grateful we are for the large and small kindnesses that we have received from the more experienced Members, who could perhaps be referred to in this context as old lags. I am conscious of the fact that if a new Member speaks for more than 10 minutes he might not get to speak again for the next 20 years. I have been a Member for relatively few months, and, like many new Members, I came here with high hopes only to have many of them dashed. Like many new Labour Members, I started with a sense of achievement, having won the first vote in which I participated, only to find that things went gradually downhill from then on, as we have managed to win only one vote since. That has convinced me of the need for a fairer voting system--one that allows us to win on a number of occasions. I hope to participate in such an experience later this week.
I look forward to participating fully in further debates on a variety of issues that concern my constituents and my area, and I hope to carry my party's flag forward in a number of areas.
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On the subject of the present debate, the solution to crime lies not with procedural alterations, worthy though some may be, but with economic recovery and an end to the hopelessness that drives so many of our people into crime. The Government have presided over an explosion in crime in the past few years, and I hope that they will soon propose to do something positive about it.7.48 pm
Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North) rose --
Madam Deputy Speaker : Mr. Walker.
Dr. Godman : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not wish to introduce a carping note into tonight's civilised proceedings, but why have you called the hon. Gentleman? He has not been here for the past hour.
Madam Deputy Speaker : That is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, and I have exercised it in that way.
Mr. Walker : I was about to apologise to the House for the fact that I have been in and out of the Chamber during the debate. It is wrong to say that I have not been here for the past hour. I can tell exactly when I went out, because I went to one of the many interviews that I have been involved in due to today's circumstances. I am sorry that I did not hear all of his speech, but I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan, (Mr. Davidson). I suppose that I would really like to tell him how delighted I am to see him sitting there representing Govan. We enjoyed the outcome of his election, but, more importantly, the House looks forward to hearing what he has to say because he spoke with the conviction that comes from experience. I am sure that his contributions on Scottish and other matters will be welcomed by Members on both sides of the House.
The Bill is important and, although it will not be controversial, it will nevertheless arouse disagreement and individuals will see some aspects of it differently. I have always taken the simple view of life : people who transgress should be made to repay their debt to society. However, it is difficult in any circumstances to get the balance right. Some people feel that often the sentences are too draconian, and others feel that they do not fit the crime. Much of the Bill deals with the subject of parole. There is always uncertainty when someone is released before completing his or her sentence, particularly if there is a further transgression. The fact that some people transgress--they always will--is no reason for saying that we should do away with the measure completely. The Government are trying to get the balance right.
As the House knows, the Bill is the result of the Kincraig report. As the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) said--I notice that he has left the Chamber and I make no observation other than to say that hon. Members go in and out of the Chamber all the time--not all aspects of the Kincraig recommendations have been implemented. It would have been surprising if they had because Governments rarely implement everything contained in learned reports.
I am particularly concerned about the amendments that were made in the other place regarding war criminals and the question of audio and video evidence and records. I
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hope that when we examine the Bill in detail in Committee we shall be able to remove that large amendment so that the will of the House of Commons can be carried in the Scottish Committee. Although we in Scotland cherish and guard the fact that we have a separate legal system and way of bringing in laws, we think that some matters should be common throughout the United Kingdom. Such matters, in which the public at large are interested, are important. Although I have always doubted whether many prosecutions would be brought under the war crimes procedure, we are dealing with principles rather than with the practice of what is likely to happen.Dr. Godman : May I point out that the Secretary of State appears to intend to remove that part of the Bill on Report?
Mr. Walker : If my right hon. Friend has said that he will do that, I accept that he will do it. One of the great advantages of being a Secretary of State is that one can get things done, but that does not stop me commenting on the matter. The hon. Gentleman will also want to comment and make observations on it when he has the opportunity as the debate continues.
We shall probably spend most of our time debating the release of prisoners. An amendment was tabled in the other place about prisoners being released for health, exceptional and compassionate reasons. I was interested to see that Lord Fraser of Carmyllie said that the Government had
"no intention of penalising a short-term prisoner released on compassionate grounds if, for example, he unexpectedly recovers his health."--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 2 June 1992 ; Vol. 537, c. 870.]
One thinks of people like Ernest Saunders, who has made a dramatic recovery from allegedly being nearly senile. He did terrible damage to the City of London and the Scotch whisky industry's interests. I happen to think that the Scotch whisky industry is in better shape today to face the problems of the world than it was before Ernest Saunders came on the scene. I was deeply involved in matters affecting the whisky takeovers. Nevertheless, we must be careful in examining the recovery in prisoners' health. That is the best example that I can give of someone released on health grounds because he was, according to medical evidence, in a state of senile dementia. I hope that I go through that situation many times in my life so that I may experience longevity and recover as Ernest Saunders has.
I draw attention to that case because, when we have an opportunity in Committee to debate these matters in depth, I hope that we shall recognise that it is difficult to get the balance right. I understand the difficulties in attempting to get it right, but we must always take on board the public's response and reactions. The public will often respond to circumstances and then forget about them tomorrow because something else has come along, so one must not simply change the law to meet the fads of today. If we are to make fundamental changes in how we deal with prisoners, we must ensure that those changes will have the public's confidence. We should not make changes simply to be seen to be fashionable or faddy.
I am interested in the fact that prisoners serving sentences of less than four years will be automatically released halfway through their sentence instead of at two
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thirds, as at present. It is right that prisoners should be released only if they have been well behaved while in prison. I no longer have a prison in my constituency, but before the boundary changes of 1983 Perth prison was in my constituency. I was a regular visitor to Perth prison and it always struck me-- [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) wish to intervene?Mr. Walker : I thought that the hon. Gentleman wanted to have his say.
Like so many prisons of that period, Perth prison is a ghastly place. It is one of the most appalling places imaginable in which to lock up people. If there are benefits to prisoners and society by releasing people from their sentence earlier, I would support that. But I need to be convinced--I am always ready to be convinced--that the sentence passed by the court at the time of the offence is seen and accepted by the public as fitting the crime.
The big problem is not the parole aspect, which is a proper, humane way to deal with people who have transgressed. The question is : are the courts passing sentences that the public believe fit the crime? Too often that is not the case and too many sentences are seen not to fit the crime. I am sure that every hon. Member has been approached when a television programme reports a ghastly occurrence involving a child who has been molested or killed and the sentence does not seem to fit the crime. I accept that in all cases all the evidence must be heard in order to understand why sentences are passed.
One aspect that was long overdue was the change in the law made in England and Wales so that the Crown could appeal against a sentence that it thought to be too light. Such checks and balances are important. I hope that, in dealing with the Bill--which is, after all, entitled the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill--we shall have the opportunity in Committee to examine the way in which sentences are passed. It is not just a matter of ensuring that someone is released after he or she has served half of a sentence. The issue is whether a four-year sentence is such as to give the public confidence in our court procedures.
I shall now consider the principle behind the parole system. It is right to have a system that allows for a selective approach to the release of long- term prisoners. That is essential. But equally, whatever system is introduced following the Bill's passage, the public must be convinced that the rules do not allow the release of prisoners who should be kept locked up.
There are some prisoners who should never be allowed out, but they are not in the majority. One must recognise that they are in the minority. However, the important aspect of any parole system must be how one examines the candidates who are up for parole and considers in depth why they were incarcerated in the first place. In addition, a decision must be taken on whether those individuals have records of incarceration for offences that make it unlikely that they will ever return into society as responsible citizens.
I suspect that most of the controversy in future will arise over discretionary life prisoners and periodic reviews. There is no doubt that some people should never be returned to society. There were such prisoners in Perth prison when I used to visit. I shall not name them as their
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names are known to everyone. They have been incarcerated not only for crimes committed when they were in the public domain, but for crimes committed subsequently, including the capital crime of murder. Such individuals should never be released. Anyone who commits a capital crime while still a prisoner has completely negated the possibility of a civilised society considering him or her for release. We must consider that aspect, how we deal with it, and the issue of periodic reviews.From time to time almost all hon. Members receive correspondence from people who have been incarcerated. There are genuine cases in which mistakes have been made. We must recognise that we live in an imperfect world. The law, as with anything to do with man, is imperfect. Mistakes can happen, and we must bear that in mind when considering the release of prisoners and reviewing why they were locked up in the first place.
I believe that it is easier to keep youngsters good than to make bad ones good. I have held that view all my adult life, which is why I have tried to make a small contribution to youth work and activities. I have been asked a number of times why I seem more interested in air cadets and boy scouts than offenders. The answer is that if one keeps good youngsters active and involved in organisations that turn them into good citizens, there is a better chance that they will grow up into good citizens.
We spend far too much of our time looking at defaulters--to use an old military term--than good youngsters, of whom there are many more than there are bad ones. We should spend more time considering ways of keeping good youngsters good, which is important when considering young offenders. Young people often drift into offending because it is a peer activity. If someone grows up in circumstances in which anybody else's property is fair game, it is not surprising that he or she has difficulty in making judgments on the difference between right and wrong.
One of the great mistakes that we have made in the post-war period is progressively to drift away from understanding the difference between right and wrong. That is probably due to trendy ideas in education and the breakdown of the normal family unit. We shall be faced with more and more problems that are the direct result of the breakdown of the family unit and the inadequacies of education. Youngsters are unable to cope with situations because they are affected by occurrences in school and at home.
The Bill is not the sort of measure to excite people outside. The only people who will send us representations will be interested groups, not the public ; that has been my experience so far. We shall not receive many brownie points from constituents for the time that we spend in Committee or on Second Reading. We shall be lucky to get any mention in the Scottish media for our activities this evening, although this is an important Bill covering wide aspects of discretion and the law.
I was interested in the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) on transgressions against wildlife. We have adjoining constituencies : Kincardine and Deeside joins my constituency at Glen Shee, where my daughters were ski-ing at the weekend. I cannot remember when they last went ski-ing in October. My hon. Friend and I know that one of the great difficulties in large rural constituencies
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involves people who transgress miles away from habitation. I look forward to his moving his amendments and the debates that we shall have on them in Committee.Although it is probably true that most offences occur in urban areas, we also have problems in rural areas, and it is time they were dealt with properly. The preamble to this Bill makes one realise that it ranges fairly widely, so there will be opportunities to table a number of amendments that should be in order--
Mr. Hood : Stop filibustering.
Mr. Walker : The hon. Gentleman should know that I table amendments to most Bills.
Mr. Hood : It sounded to me as though the hon. Gentleman was filibustering. Indeed, I have lost track of the part of the Bill that he is discussing. That is all ; it just crossed my mind.
Mr. Walker : The hon. Gentleman suggested earlier that I had not been here for the debate. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside speaking about the problems of a lack of corroboration. I was merely saying that I shall welcome the chance in Committee to debate the amendments that my hon. Friend will propose to deal with that problem. That shows clearly that I have been here listening to some of the speeches.
Because others wish to make speeches longer than mine, I am happy at this stage to sit down and await the continued debate in Committee--and I can say with certainty that I will be on that Committee.
8.11 pm
Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale) : I apologise to the House for missing the Front-Bench speeches. Unfortunately, I had to attend an important meeting about today's statement.
I am pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State in his place--the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton). I was grateful for his support some years ago when I dealt in a private Member's Bill with problems of under-age drinking.
I welcome some of the measures in the Bill ; I just hope that the Minister will not lose sight of the great need for legislation to protect our young kids who are getting hooked on booze. The evidence from the good work that the Minister helped me with two or three years ago points to the fact that matters are getting worse, not better. I hope that the Minister will reassure me later that the Government will move to deal with the real problems besetting our kids and affecting the communities in which they live. There is also a great deal of evidence to show that they are moving from alcohol abuse to drug abuse. Many of our young kids are being pushed down the road towards criminality, and that is alarming. It is time this place did something about it.
Another omission from the Bill seems to be summed up by the need to improve our court proceedings for taking police evidence. Rightly, there is a great public demand for more police on our streets and in our housing estates to deter crime. I am alarmed by the amount of police time taken up unnecessarily in our courts. Police officers turn up in court and sit there all day, only to be told to go away and return another time. Those policemen are being paid
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overtime--money which comes from budgets--or are getting time off ; either way they are off the streets where they perform a much needed function. I hope that the Government will look into that at some future date. The police want a change ; the community wants the system improved ; and we as politicians want to provide our communities with a better police service. We are already trying to relieve the police of civilian jobs, and now we must take them out of the courts and get them on the streets where they can deter crime. I agreed with quite a lot of what the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) said. That will come as a surprise to him : it certainly surprises me. I agree with his remarks about youth organisations--the Boy Scouts, the Boys Brigade and the Girl Guides all do tremendous work in our rural areas and in my constituency. Clause 17 refers to the revocation of licences. I should like to mention a constituent of mine as a way of highlighting this problem. The case has gone on for some time and has been compounded by recent events. In 1976 George Beattie, who lived in Carluke in my constituency, was convicted of murdering a young woman there. It was a dastardly crime against a woman in the prime of life. George Beattie was released from prison 13 years later on licence. A few months ago he attended an interview with a social worker where tempers became frayed and he is alleged to have kicked the social worker in the knee. I do not judge whether the allegation is true. The dilemma posed by the case is made all the more acute because there is compelling evidence that George Beattie did not commit the murder. There was a great deal of alarm when he was first convicted because even his defence lawyers, who deserve some criticism, thought that there was not case to answer. Tragically, therefore, their preparation for his defence was less than professional. They thought that the judge would throw the case out. He did not, and George Beattie was convicted by a majority verdict of the jury--despite the fact that there was no corroborating evidence, no forensic evidence, and no confessional evidence that he was guilty. All there was was a spot of blood on a handkerchief which was thought to be the blood of the victim but was proved subsequently not to be.George Beattie has been pulled back into prison and is serving a life sentence for a crime that he almost certainly did not commit. I accept that all the legislation in the world would not resolve the problem posed by such a case, but I raise it to increase public awareness of the problem. It is insensitive of me, perhaps, to mention the case because I know that it distresses the family of the victim of this terrible crime against a young woman, but two "Rough Justice" programmes on the incident in question have concluded that George Beattie could not have committed the crime.
As a Member of Parliament I cannot sit back and do nothing when I see what I believe to be a grave injustice--regardless of whether George kicked the social worker a few months ago. As I see it, an innocent man is in gaol. Even more disturbing is the fact that if George Beattie is innocent, as he almost certainly is, the guilty person may be walking the streets of Carluke today. I understand that the Minister was formerly a member of the Bar, but I am not a lawyer ; I was a humble miner. Tragically, Scottish law does not allow George Beattie another appeal. We must look at that and I hope that in the name of common
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decency and justice the George Beattie case can be re-examined because regardless of legal procedures something has to be done. Clause 20 refers to parole boards. The hon. Member for Tayside, North said that he visited Perth prison. Hon. Members do not make a practice of such visits but I visited Cornton Vale women's prison in Stirling on Friday to see a young woman who in June 1993 will have been in prison for 10 years. She was convicted of a murder that she did not commit together with her father and brother following a fracas outside their home when a knife was drawn and a man died as a consequence. Four police officers in civilian clothes were chasing her young brother after an incident earlier that night. There was a barney during which there was a tragic death. The brother of about 18 admitted that he had used a knife. As a result one of the policemen died.The Bill mentions heeding the wishes of a judge. At the trial the judge ruled that the case could not be viewed as a police killing because when the fracas started the mother phoned the police on a 999 call which was registered, as are all such calls. Therefore, evidence was produced to show that the family thought they were being attacked by four people and had phoned the police for help. They were unaware that the four plain clothes men involved in the fracas with the family were police officers. That was a tragic incident for all concerned and certainly for the policeman who died. As a result a young man's life has been destroyed. The father and the young man's sister were convicted for what is known as act in part. The Minister will correct me if I have used the wrong phrase.
The young woman that I visited on Friday is called Margaret Smith and she is married with children. The last time she sought parole it was denied for reasons known only to those who give guidance to the parole board. Any guidance not supporting her application for parole did not come from the prison because on Friday after seeing Margaret I spoke to the prison governor, Mr. Abernethy, and to Margaret's immediate governor, Mrs. Carroll, who said that from the time that the young woman entered prison she has been a model prisoner who has never given a minute's trouble. She was described as a most trustworthy prisoner. Every member of the prison staff said, "Why is this young woman still in prison?" Her father has been given a parole date of October 1993. I visited him four years ago to hear his view of the case and found that he was the governor's trustee. Everybody thought that he was a model prisoner and he was not seen as a real criminal. He was the victim of an unfortunate circumstance which ended up in the mincing machine of our court procedures.
The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) made a relevant point about giving judges discretion on sentencing. In the case I am describing there was a majority verdict, but the judge had no alternative but to impose a life sentence on the father and the young woman who was caught up in the act. It is a great tragedy that so many lives have been ruined.
I am not wishy-washy on crime--far from it. Prisons are there to contain people who threaten our community, but people should not be imprisoned unless they deserve it. My hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke), who is the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, has conducted much work on mental health. A civilised society should not allow mentally ill people to be imprisoned. I am sure that none of us can put our hand on our heart and say that we support that. At the other end
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of the scale a man was recently convicted in Lanark, a town in my constituency, for breaking into a house while wearing a ski mask, assaulting the man and woman in the house and robbing them, and hitting the man on the head with a hammer. Believe it or not, he was sentenced to three months' imprisonment. I intend to write to the Lord Advocate to seek an explanation because when I am asked how such things can happen I have to say that I do not know. How can one defend a system that sends a man to prison for three months for breaking into someone's house and assaulting him with a hammer?Mr. Gallie : I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman because I have had similar cases in my constituency. On a charge of murder a person was eventually sentenced to nine months and another received two years. People in Ayr do not understand how such sentences can be passed.
Mr. Hood : I cannot comment on that case, but in the case that I have mentioned it is beyond my comprehension how such a sentence could have been imposed. People are now sent to prison for speeding in cars, but it seems that the sheriff in Lanark thinks that three months in prison is enough for a masked person who breaks into a house and hits the occupant over the head with a hammer. We must look at how we can balance the extremes on both sides. In a democracy, the penal system must be addressed to the need to punish and to deter, but also to the need to rehabilitate.
Nobody's interest is served by Margaret Smith, whom I visited on Friday, being kept for one minute longer in prison and she should be released, as should her father. As for her brother, who was caught up in the fracas, I am told that the average term of imprisonment for those given a life sentence for murder is 10 to 12 years, so his case should be looked at seriously as well.
During my discussions on Friday, another point came to my notice--perhaps the Minister would like to answer this because I cannot. I am told--I am sure that the Minister will correct me if it is not the case--that a young woman serving a life sentence in Scotland serves, on average, two years longer than a man. Furthermore, C-category lifers are given certain privileges such as visits and permission to work outside the prison. However, a D-category woman prisoner is not allowed to work outside the prison. When I checked the privileges given to C and D-category prisoners-- I hope that I am not being too technical--I found that D-category prisoners are allowed to work outside prison only if they have been given a date for their release on parole. This policy has been implemented in Cornton Vale prison where this young woman is imprisoned. However, in men's prisons, C- category lifers are working outside the prisons in preparation for their release.
If the Minister cannot pursue that point tonight, perhaps he will write to me. I am sure that his first response will be to say that it does not happen and that the judicial system administers the same punishments for men as for women but it is strange if the statistics prove that women given life sentences serve longer sentences than men. I hope that the Minister can give me some information on that. The Bill contains a number of good measures--for example, that on children giving evidence. I am sure that that is not a party political issue. I have spoken about the need to deter through the law and the administration of the law. I meet my local police officers often, and I say this
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for no other reason than that I firmly believe it. I am fortunate in that my chief superintendent is the best that one can get and I do not say that because he has moved in to live in my little rural village and is now my neighbour. I have good relations with the police, and I believe that we have different functions in the community. He polices the community and I represent it.The problems created within our communities can be solved only there. There is no one solution to problems. In solving crime in the community, the police have their functions and the local authority has its functions. The community also has a function--to give assistance to the agencies within it as they seek solutions. That has always been my approach to dealing with the community. A penal system should be created, formed, managed and administered to deter, to punish and to rehabilitate. It must give security to the community by taking crime out rather than by creating crime and thereby putting people in prison.
8.34 pm
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