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Friend agree that what we most need now is a restoration of trading confidence, which will most easily follow from agreement under the general agreement on tariffs and trade? Does he agree also that as a major trading nation we would stand to benefit greatly from such an agreement? Does he believe that there is now a genuine political will within Europe to achieve a GATT agreement?The Prime Minister : I agree unreservedly with every word that my hon. Friend has spoken. I believe that there is a genuine political will across Europe. I hope that it extends in precisely the same measure to each and every country in Europe. Certainly the Heads of Government agreed on the desirability of securing a settlement. Our negotiators have been sent back to negotiate first with the Americans. When those negotiations are completed, they will return to the general negotiations in Geneva to reach a settlement. I fervently hope that that will be possible.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray) : Given that one of the stated objectives of the United Kingdom's presidency was the widening of the Community, or the speeding up of that process, will the Prime Minister accept that there is genuine concern among many of us on both sides of the Chamber that there seems to be an inability within the Community to resolve a European problem, which is that of Bosnia and the surrounding areas of that state?
As the Prime Minister has already said that there was not a substantive debate at Birmingham on the issue, will he tell us what diplomatic initiatives he envisages between members of the Community in addition to the humanitarian aid, which we all welcome while recognising the complexities of the situation? What is being done to ensure that refugees from what appears to be genocide are shown the hand of friendship by this country as well as by other members of the Community?
The Prime Minister : Many refugees--I do not have the number immediately to hand--have been admitted to this country in recent months. The London conference set out a series of objectives that few people expected to be met in terms of seeking to reach an agreement in respect of the tangled conflict in Bosnia. It is not an agreement that is readily available with the ancient hatreds--I can put it in
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no other way--that have been reopened by the combatants in the dispute. United Nations negotiators are in constant touch to see what can be done. Progress appears to have been made time and again. It has then been broken, as it were, and the word has been broken of one or other of the combatants who put their hand to progress. That is a matter of great regret to me and everyone else.There is a difficulty that the hon. Lady and the House generally must face. I share her view of the humanitarian difficulties that will be faced this winter, and that is why the United Kingdom has taken so much action, but I do not believe that it would be a practicable proposition for this country, or any collection of countries, to put troops into the middle of the dispute to hold the combatants apart. With great regret, I do not believe that that would be possible or practicable. I believe that there would be a blood bath of unprecedented proportions and that the troops who would be there would be there for an indefinite period. I do not believe, given the terrain and the circumstances, that such a move would be possible. That means that we are driven back to negotiations, and negotiations are being carried out on behalf of the United Nations. We must rely on the good will of the combatants--to my great regret, it has not always been forthcoming. We shall have to continue to try to do that and in the meantime alleviate the hardship as much as we can. In terms of alleviating the hardship, there is a decision to send 1,800 British troops, who will stay there. There will be rather more initially to establish the troops in post. It is a difficult decision. It will not be an easy task for the troops, nor will it necessarily be a safe one. I took the decision because I share the view that has been expressed by the hon. Lady and by the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), the leader of the Liberal Democrat party, that during the winter, whatever we do and whatever anybody else does, many men, women and children will die, quite apart from those killed in conflict, as a result of the terrible dispute in former Yugoslavia.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Madam Speaker : Order. On that note I am drawing this session of questions to a close-- [Interruption.] I am always in a no-win situation when it comes to statements. We must now move on.
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Points of Order
Mr. Terry Lewis (Worsley) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am not seeking to extend Question Time, as you will readily appreciate, but my point of order arises from education questions. At the end of questions, the Secretary of State for Education impugned the integrity of Salford city council, which I represent in this place. He suggested that Salford city council unfairly interfered in a successful ballot in which 70 per cent. of parents at Earlham community high school in my constituency voted last week and yesterday to stay with the local education authority. I have to place on record in this House that that ballot was carried out fairly, without interference, and the people spoke. The Secretary of State should not abuse the procedures of the House in the way he did at Question Time.
Madam Speaker : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will find other methods of making his point known.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. One of the most essential democratic rights in Britain is the right to lobby Parliament. You will know of the demonstration and lobbying which is to take place on Wednesday as a result of the grave situation in the coal industry. Will every effort be made to ensure that as many as possible of those lobbying--obviously a limited number, we know that, and there is no doubt about it--will be able to see their Members of Parliament and that those involved in the coal industry will not be told at St. Stephen's entrance that they cannot get in? I hope that every effort will be made by the Serjeant at Arms and his staff--I am sure that that will be the case--and by the police to ensure that those exercising their democratic rights in Britain will be able to lobby just as others do and that there will be no form of discrimination because the people who happen to be lobbying are miners.
Madam Speaker : I am deeply concerned that British citizens who want legitimately to lobby their Members of Parliament should have access to these premises so to do. I am already involved in negotiations to ensure that as many people as possible will be able to do that tomorrow, although the House will understand that there are limits.
Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I worked in the steel industry for about 20 years before I entered the House and I wish to raise a matter on which the House was seriously and inadvertently misled yesterday concerning that industry. Yesterday, the President of the Board of Trade said : "I had to go to Corby in 1979 when the Labour party closed the steelworks".--[ Official Report, 19 October 1992 ; Vol. 212, c. 209.]
On 1 November 1979, the then Member of Parliament for Kettering applied for a debate under Standing Order No. 9 on the urgent matter of
"the announcement by the British Steel Corporation today" 1 November 1979--
"that it will begin a speedy run down of the iron and steel works in Corby."--[ Official Report, 1 November 1979 ; Vol. 972, c. 1479.] Is it not right that that matter should be corrected tomorrow by the President of the Board of Trade along
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with his other U-turn? Would it not be a good thing if he relinquished his responsibility for energy and concentrated on--Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is trying to continue yesterday's debate, but he knows that there are ways and means by which he can do that, either by tabling a motion or by raising the matter, if he catches my eye, in tomorrow's debate.
Mr. Winnick rose--
Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman has already raised a point of order. I have to deal with those of other hon. Members.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). There is a story going around that members of the public will be admitted to Parliament square tomorrow--Parliament square, not the precincts of this building--only if they are in possession of a letter from a Member of Parliament saying that they have an appointment to lobby that Member of Parliament. [Interruption.] I am rather surprised that the Government Whip should be supporting that process.
Will you confirm, Madam Speaker, that the Sessional Orders carried at the start of this Session of Parliament make it clear that the public have a right of entry to Parliament square and have a right to lobby their Members of Parliament, as you have just explained to us? I should be grateful if you would make it clear to the police that any restrictions, such as that members of the public should carry letters from Members of Parliament, would be contrary to the Sessional Orders that we have agreed.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. With reference to the remarks of my hon. Friends, and particularly to those of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), Labour Members of Parliament are happy to send such letters to their constituents because they support the motion to save the pits. Some Tory Members of Parliament might not want to do so. The result may be an imbalance in the lobby, with members of the public who do not have letters from Tory Members of Parliament kept out.
I refer also to an earlier point of order raised during Question Time. You, Madam Speaker, know that there will be a close vote tomorrow. It is supposed to be an orderly vote, yet the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) was hauled out of the Chamber by the Government Whip, the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Knight), to be told how to vote tomorrow night. A lot of arm twisting, bullying, and intimidation is going on. We want to make sure that it will be a clean vote and a clean Lobby.
Madam Speaker : Right hon. and hon. Members will make up their own minds how to vote tomorrow. That has nothing to do with the Chair. I made it clear earlier that I am as keen as anyone here to see that citizens of this country who want to lobby their Members of Parliament are allowed to do so. Tomorrow will be an extremely difficult day for the House authorities and the police. I am already involved in talks, and I will do my utmost to ensure that as many people as possible have access to this place.
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Mr. Winnick : I am genuinely grateful to you, Madam Speaker--as I am sure my hon. Friends are--for your remarks. However, if the position is that described by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn)--if British citizens who come to see their Members of Parliament are stopped by the police when they try to enter Parliament square--and if that information is communicated to you as quickly as possible, will you make arrangements to hear our point of view and to negotiate with the police accordingly?
Madam Speaker : The hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) began his point of order by using the words, "There is a story going around." I do not work on rumours ; I work on fact. Perhaps right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House will leave it to me to deal with the matter as best I can.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Will you give serious consideration to allowing Prime Ministerial statements on European Community matters to run for one hour for the remainder of the United Kingdom's presidency of the EEC? Given that part of that presidency was, in a sense, lost to Parliament because of the summer recess, that is a reasonable request, particularly in respect of those right hon. and hon. Members who take a deep interest in all things European. I therefore respectfully ask that you, Madam Speaker, accede to my polite request.
Madam Speaker : The hon. Gentleman is always polite when making requests to me, and I hope that I am always polite in trying to dodge them. If I were to allow the Prime Minister to spend one hour on EC statements, I would next be asked to allow a different Minister one hour on another matter. The hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to leave the matter in my hands. I am not at the end of the line in which medals are given for the time allowed for statements. Yesterday, I allowed two hours on yesterday's statement, and I allowed just over three quarters of an hour on today's statement. I am in a no-win situation. The House will just have to leave it to me. However, I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I noticed that he rose in his place throughout today's statement--I know that he is very keen. [ Hon. Members :-- "And me."] Yes, I am sure that is true of other right hon. and hon. Members as well.
NORTHERN IRELAND
Ordered,
That the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991 (Amendment) Order 1992 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Patnick.]
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Regulation of Wheel-Clamping
4.29 pm
Mr. John Spellar (Warley, West) : I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to control the wheel-clamping of vehicles on private land ; and for connected purposes.
Let me begin, Madam Speaker, by offering you my
congratulations--and, I am sure, those of the whole House--on being made a freeman of the borough of Sandwell, together with my predecessor Peter Archer, now Baron Archer of Sandwell. I am sure that that is fitting testimony to the service that both of you have given your constituencies and our borough.
My Bill would regulate wheel clamping on private land. It is important in itself, because of the growing evidence of abuse by clampers ; but it is also important in a wider sense. It is about time that we stopped treating the motorist as a second-class citizen. It is about time that we recognised the reality of the 20th century, and the role that the motor car has played in it.
Currently, in England and Wales, there is effectively no legal framework to regulate the clamping or removal of vehicles on private land. We talk expansively about "cowboy clampers", but the position is indeed somewhat akin to that in the old West : there is no law west of the Pecos that relates to clamping.
The motor car is probably the second most expensive asset that the motorist owns ; in some cases, it may be the most expensive. Yet motorists can be deprived of its use : it can be forcibly removed without either due process or accountability. Furthermore, although I do not wish to tar all clampers with the same brush, there is definitely a disreputable element--people who have scented rich pickings, and are behaving in a very unprincipled way-- and all the evidence that I have received suggests that the position is worsening.
They order things a little differently in Scotland ; or, at least, they have done so since the summer. Faced with a decision on private clamping and a demand for payment, the Scottish courts observed, in a short, sharp and effective judgment, that such action was "extortion and theft under Scottish law".
I have asked Scottish colleagues about the effects of that judgment. Has traffic ground to a halt in Scotland? Are Glasgow and Edinburgh gridlocked? Will the House be besieged by Scottish landowners seeking redress? None of that seems to have happened : the position seems to have remained fairly normal. It appears that the abuse has been rectified without the great problems that might have been expected.
As a result of the Scottish decision, I tabled an early-day motion which was supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House. After one or two abortive attempts in the early hours of the morning, I introduced an Adjournment debate on 16 July, just before the summer recess. I was supported by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Waller), who, I understand, is chairing a Committee elsewhere. I hoped that we would make some progress with the Home Office over the summer ; its representatives have been very courteous, and I am pleased to see that the Minister is present today. Unfortunately, however, we have not yet secured a definitive result. I hope that, as a result of our discussions, the Home Office now recognises the size and dimensions of the problem caused by private clamping.
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I also hope that those in the Home Office understand that the problem will not go away. Every day, more private citizens are wheel clamped, and more and more feel aggrieved. This is a constituency that is increasing in size. Accordingly, I hope that the Bill's next stage will not be blocked by the Government, and that the Home Office will try to work with us positively to achieve a satisfactory solution.On 16 July, I drew the attention of the House to many of the abuses that have taken place. I mentioned cars being blocked in while their owners were still inside, with the engine still running, after which the clampers would emerge and clamp them. I mentioned cars being parked on empty land to entice motorists into believing that it was an open parking area, and the motorists' vehicles then being clamped. I mentioned the clampers who wait until someone has gone around the corner, and then come out to clamp that person's car. I mentioned the clamping of cars in inner-city zones late at night : motorists--often they are women--come back and discover that they must find a telephone and wait for perhaps an hour or two to be released.
The action of those who wait before clamping vehicles highlights one of the problems. If the clampers' concern was to stop illicit parking, they would tell motorists immediatly that they were parking in an inappropriate place. Instead, they let motorists park, wait until they have gone round the corner and then come out and clamp them.
It is all down to motivation, and the main motive seems to be to extort money from the motorist. I suspect that if a clamping operative does not catch enough victims, he loses his job. It is very much like the problem that has been revealed in regard to Westminster council, which is involved in a row with its traffic wardens because they are not issuing their quota of parking tickets. It all sounds remarkably Stalinist. Some clamping firms advise their employees to get the clamp off as quickly as possible so that other motorists will not see any clamps and will therefore be enticed on to the property. Some clampers offer landowners a profit-sharing scheme if they will allow them to clamp on their land.
The money involved is not insignificant--far more than is involved if one parks on the street and is caught by the public authorities. The minimum amount seems to have moved up to about £50. When I talked today to Radio WM on its Ed Doolan programme, I gathered that in the Birmingham area it has moved up to £70 if one pays straight away. If, however, one has to go away and come back the next day with the money, one finds that the amount has gone up by another £50. The record is held by Hebden Bridge. If one is clamped there, it costs £240. I am waiting for somebody to improve on that figure.
With such rich pickings, it is no wonder that dubious characters have been attracted into the business. All that one needs are a few wheel clamps, a van of whatever quality and a mobile phone. I have been warned that the only danger in mentioning these facts is that other people might be attracted into the business.
As a result, many hon. Members, of all parties, have been approached by their constituents who had been personally inconvenienced and aggrieved. A number of those hon. Members have passed correspondence to me, as have a number of broadcasting programmes and the national press, all of which have been running campaigns. I have handed to the Home Office a considerable number
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of letters that were received as a result of one of the broadcast programmes. Many of them make distressing reading.The AA and the RAC, the two main motoring organisations, have also provided a long list of complaints from their members. Those two organisations tried to bring many of the complaints to court but, unfortunately, either the clampers settled at the doors of the court or they went out of business. Unfortunately, therefore, the AA and the RAC have been unable to obtain effective case law in the way that has been possible in Scotland.
We have to consider what clamping is trying to solve. Is clamping trying to solve the problem of obstruction? It strikes me that to immobilise the obstructing vehicle is the most bizarre way to deal with obstruction. Is it a misuse of parking space? I recognise that that can be a considerable problem and a major inconvenience where blocks of flats are involved, but is that the only way in which obstruction can be dealt with?
One of the problems with wheel clamping is that the clampers are judge, jury and court bailiff, all rolled into one. There is no redress. There is no effective due process. Sometimes, not even the landowners are able to provide redress. One example that has been drawn to my attention is that of a motorist who parked his car in a British Rail car park. He had a British Rail season ticket. He also had a season ticket for British Rail's car park. That person was clamped. British Rail accepts that he has a season ticket, but all it can do is to refer him to the clamper because British Rail has handed over its rights on that land. That is unsatisfactory. I doubt whether even the citizens charter will solve that problem.
The situation is a mess. It is unacceptable for things to muddle on as they are. It is not a sustainable position. Quite apart from whether clamping is desirable in itself--I do not believe that it is--far too many undesirable elements are being attracted into the industry. Furthermore, to leave vehicles immobilised late at night means that motorists, especially women, are vulnerable to attack. I do not want the Home Office to be forced into drastic action as a result of an incident.
We have, therefore, to look at the possible remedies. In such an easy-entry industry, self-regulation does not seem to be a practical proposition. We need to look at what happens in Scotland or at some form of licensing under the control of local authorities. We cannot leave the position as it is--a free-for-all.
A major abuse of power by private clampers is taking place that is causing considerable public concern, distress and cost to many members of the public. It has been going on for too long. It is time to close down the clamping cowboys. Accordingly, I seek leave to introduce a Bill to control the wheel clamping of vehicles parked on private land.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. John Spellar, Mr. Ian McCartney, Mr. Gary Waller, Mr. Gerald Bermingham, Mr. Tony Banks, Mr. John Battle, Mrs. Barbara Roche, Mr. Tom Cox and Mr. Alan Meale.
Regulation of Wheel-clamping
Mr. John Spellar accordingly presented a Bill to control the wheel-clamping of vehicles parked on private land ; and for connected purposes : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 22 January and to be printed. [Bill 65.]
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Orders of the Day
Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Madam Speaker : I should inform the House that I have not selected the motion to recommit certain clauses.
New Clause 1
Development and conservation of flora and fauna
.--(1) When managing the inland bay (including when doing so to comply with a direction given under section 12(1)(b) above) the Development Corporation shall have regard to the desirability of developing and conserving flora and fauna.
(2) The Development Corporation shall consult the Countryside Council for Wales to seek their view as to ways in which the inland bay may be managed so as to develop and conserve flora and fauna.'-- [Mr. Gwilym Jones.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time
Madam Speaker : With this, it will be convenient to take the following amendments : No. 11, in clause 1, page 2, line 3, leave out from to' to end of line 24 and insert
provide no less access to a range of pleasure craft and other vessels than at present and to participation and other open-air recreational activities for those of modest means in sailing, other water sports and other open air recreational activities no less than at present.'.
Government amendment No. 1.
Amendment No. 86, in page 2, line 16, leave out or expedient'. Government amendment No. 2.
Amendment No. 87, in page 2, line 24, at end insert
or for the purposes of developing or conserving flora or fauna'. Government amendment No. 3.
Amendment No. 16, in clause 2, page 3, line 1, leave out subsection (4).
Amendment No. 93, in page 3, line 2, at end insert , averting displacement of,'.
Government amendment No. 4.
Amendment No. 18, in page 3, line 6, leave out in' and insert before'.
Amendment No. 20, in page 3, line 7, leave out develop and'. Amendment No. 21, in page 3, line 7, after conserve', insert and develop'.
Amendment No. 94, in page 3, line 7, after conserve', insert and avert displacement of'.
Amendment No. 22, in page 3, line 8, at end insert
and shall publish a report on the outcome of such consultations and shall publish detailed estimates of the general environmental impact of such works and of specific reductions in the populations of such flora and fauna as are present in the natural environment of the inland bay.'.
Amendment No. 23, in page 3, line 8, at end insert
(5) Before executing the works authorised by section 1 above the Development Corporation shall have published proposals for mitigating works with respect of any adverse environment impact arising from assessments under (4) above.'.
Government amendment No. 5.
Amendment No. 45, in clause 9, page 5, line 45, leave out developing and'.
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Amendment No. 46, in page 5, line 45, after conserving', insert the'.Amendment No. 47, in page 5, line 46, at end insert
and developing new flora and fauna in it'.
Amendment No. 48, in page 6, line 2, after Wales', insert and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds'.
Amendment No. 49, in page 6, line 3, leave out develop and'. Amendment No. 50, in page 6, line 3, after conserve', insert the'.
Amendment No. 51, in page 6, line 3, leave out in' and insert of'.
Amendment No. 52, in page 6, line 4, at end insert
and develop new flora and fauna in it'.
Amendment No. 105, in page 6, line 4, at end insert
and on any area of land of special interest by reason of any of its flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features which may lie adjacent to any of the works authorised by section 1 above.'. Amendment No. 106, in page 6, line 4, at end insert and displaced from it.'.
Amendment No. 108, in clause 14, page 8, line 22, leave out desirability' and insert encouragement'.
Amendment No. 109, in page 8, line 23, leave out enabling the local community' and insert
those residing within five kilometres of the inland bay'. Amendment No. 110, in page 8, line 24, after in', insert and around'.
Amendment No. 61, in page 8, line 25, at end add
and to avoid any reduction of access for such craft vessels, sports and activities by those of modest means.'.
Amendment No. 62, in page 8, line 25, at end add--
(4) The Development Corporation shall make reasonable compensation to owners of pleasure craft presently moored in the inland bay, whose vessels are incompatible with the design of the lock gates.'. Amendment No. 121, in schedule 2, page 17, line 30, at beginning insert
Subject to sub-paragraph (5) below,'.
Amendment No. 123, in page 18, line 15, at end insert
(5) No reclamation of land for the purpose of creating islands in the inland bay under paragraph (g) of sub-paragraph (1) above shall take place without the express agreement of the Countryside Council for Wales and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds.'.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : The Government have tabled new clause 1 and amendments Nos. 1 to 5 to fulfil a commitment given in Committee. Indeed, the amendments go further than that. As I said in Committee, the Government and the development corporation recognise the need to develop new wildlife habitats in the impounded bay and attach great importance to doing so. That is why I gave the undertaking to table an amendment which put into effect the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) to add the development or conservation of nature to the list of purposes for which the ancillary powers in clause 1(5) may be implemented.
Amendment No. 3 has precisely that effect. The development corporation will be required to exercise its power to carry out ancillary work to develop or protect flora and fauna as well as to facilitate the use of the inland bay and outer harbour for boating, water sports and open air recreational activities. Amendment No. 3 relates to a clause different from the clause to which the amendment tabled in Committee by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West related, but taken with the consequential amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 5, the effect is exactly that which he sought to achieve in Committee.
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