| Previous Section | Home Page |
Column 1299
Southampton football club is not exactly a family-run club, but it has retained many of the merits of such a club, and has that feel. It is not one of the premier league clubs dominated by egocentric business men with millions of pounds to pour in. It is an achievement to be a premier league club, but the financial position that the club is likely to be put in must place a question mark over Southampton's retaining its position in the league.I appreciate the problem facing the Government. Most constituents who write to me do not like the Taylor report, but the Government would be on a political and moral hiding to nothing if they did not back the report and another stadium disaster occurred. I understand why the Government do not want an open door on prevarication and backsliding by clubs which do not have any intention of meeting the report's challenges, but that is not the position in Southampton--as I am sure the Minister recognises--as the club has done everything reasonably possible.
The Minister referred to a letter from the Football Licensing Authority, which was attempting to be helpful. Without detailed planning permission it is impossible to press ahead, to acquire the sites and put together financial packages. Discussions can take place, but contracts cannot be signed if one does not have planning permission--some compulsory purchase may be involved in acquiring the Stoneham site.
Although it would like to meet the targets in the Football Licensing Authority's letter, the club feels that it must depend on a short-term project at the Dell, in the hope of reviving the Stoneham project later.
Will the Minister and his colleagues consider the matter afresh to find out whether there is some route--through the structures of the Football Licensing Authority, or through direct intervention by Ministers--to give the club a helping hand? No one is asking for the dangerous exercise of allowing all clubs to escape the Taylor requirements, but if the efforts made by Southampton could be recognised, if support could be given to the planning process, and if the Football Licensing Authority could be encouraged to give the club a dispensation--provided that it presses ahead with the planning application and a timetable on other elements in the authority's letter--it would be enormously helpful.
I am grateful to other Ministers, and especially to the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities, who visited Southampton recently and has been helpful on a secondary planning matter concerning the capacity of the local road network. I do not regard the issue as party political. Because of the importance of the football club and its role in the premier league, will the Minister look at the Southampton file afresh and try to find a way through the situation, which is not the responsibility of the club or of the local city council?
1.28 pm
Mr. Nirj Joseph Deva (Brentford and Isleworth) : The Government gave sportsmen a clear message of support and commitment when they appointed the first Minister with direct responsibility for sport. I take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) on his recent promotion to the Opposition Front Bench. I am sure that he will have an enjoyable and useful role to play.
Column 1300
I speak as the Member in whose constituency is the home of the Bees, otherwise known as Brentford football club, and as an armchair athlete who, no doubt like many other hon. Members, participated in this year's Olympics by yelling at the television to encourage our British Olympic team. I am sure that all hon. Members will join me in congratulating the British team who participated in the Barcelona Olympics. I also congratulate the Government on their positive stand and support for Manchester 2000. That will be a magnificent opportunity for Britain to shine on the world stage as hosts for the premier sports event of the millennium.Manchester and the north-west will benefit from the major investment. I understand that about £55 million has been committed to the construction of an Olympic arena and many other sports venues and facilities. That massive investment will enable a new generation of budding athletes to have access to world-class facilities and will provide them with every opportunity to participate and win. I encourage everyone to support in every way the Manchester 2000 bid. I commend the Minister's initiatives for improving the existing structure and funding for sport, and I welcome the setting up of a sports council for England which is long overdue. It will concentrate the minds of English sportsmen and women and foster and promote the provision of sports facilities in England.
Unlike the Labour party, I do not believe in the formation of bureaucratic and non-workable bodies to control sport. When Labour launched its document on sport the then shadow sports Minister, who is now in another place, made it clear that he would like to see Labour encourage a greater ministerial role on sports councils. That is in spite of the Opposition's call to keep sports representative bodies free from political bias. Labour's proposals threaten the voluntary and apolitical nature of sport as we know it.
Government grant in aid to the Sports Council has risen by about 30 per cent. in real terms to about £50 million in the past 12 years while local authority spending has grown by 5 per cent. in real terms from £362 million in 1987 to £456 million in 1990. We have also been told that sport will be one of the major recipients from the national lottery.
The private sector is invaluable to a wide range of sports, with sponsorship running at about £200 million per year. Another £40 million is generated every year for sport following the 2.5 per cent. cut in pool betting duty. There is also the business sponsorship scheme for sport. It was launched in September and sponsors money pound for pound up to a maximum of £75,000. Labour has announced that it would set up a major review of sports finance and sponsorship, levy, betting and taxation to ensure that a fairer proportion of the money taken out of sport is put back in. That is a laudable aim, but I share the concern of many of my hon. Friends who feel that that could well be seen as a threat to commercial sponsors, even if it is not, especially if sponsorship were subject to a special tax. As I have said, Brentford football club, a first division team, is in my constituency. Therefore, football ground safety is of special concern to my constituents and myself. It is imperative that the recommendations in the Taylor report be implemented. We must at all costs avoid another Hillsborough.
Column 1301
I understand that second and third division clubs are bring allowed to retain some standing accommodation, but I should like to see safety as the paramount factor at all football league stadiums. For that reason I was quite concerned at the opposition to, and the condemnation of, the compulsory change to all-seater football grounds. I urge all who oppose that to join the call for safety first at all stadiums and support Lord Justice Taylor's recommendations. It is encouraging to see that the Department of National Heritage is working in close conjunction with the Education Department on sport in schools. It is also encouraging to know that physical education is now compulsory under the national curriculum until the age of 14 years, and until the age of 16 years in 1995. I also support the Government's recommendation that all children be taught to swim--as I was when I was young--up to the age of 11 years. The champion coaching scheme should be consolidated and enhanced and I welcome the injection of £1.3 million into the scheme. I should like to see children given every opportunity to participate and excel. They should have an opportunity to choose from a wide range of sporting activities. They should be given an opportunity to take sport beyond school hours and have coaches and facilities to give them the training and choice, if they so wish, to become athletes and represent their country, possibly at the Olympics in Manchester in the year 2000.1.35 pm
Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting) : The debate has been wide ranging, but, as an earlier speaker said, if we are to have such debates they should concentrate on specific sports ; some sports have not been mentioned.
We have heard much about the amount of money that the general public puts into sport and the hundreds of thousands of people who are employed in sport. Without doubt, vast sums of money are now available, but, taking football as an example, I wonder whether that money is really for the benefit of all football clubs in the country and not solely for that of those in the premier league. The top clubs will always be the attraction, but the real lifeblood of football is the clubs now in the first, second and third divisions--teams such as Doncaster, Fulham and Chester. They may never be champions or get to Wembley, but local people relate to such teams.
It has not been mentioned much in this debate, but we often hear it said in the House that there is an enormous amount of violence in this country. Much of that violence and vandalism is done by young people. With much closer co-operation between local authorities and local football teams within communities, much of it could be stopped. However, the great problem is that many clubs do not have the necessary money because they are not an Arsenal, Tottenham or Liverpool. I hope that the Minister will look into that problem. A sport that has not been mentioned this morning is boxing, which is followed by many people. How boxing is organised I frankly do not know, and I do not know whether the Minister knows. Whatever one may think of the sport, one often reads that boxers who have a great deal of ability and who, based on their record, should be
Column 1302
given an opportunity to fight for British, European or world titles rarely get that chance because, sadly, they do not belong to the right syndicate that controls boxing.I do not expect the Minister to reply to my points in detail now, although I should like him to find out and let me know exactly who controls boxing in this country.
Mr. Pendry : Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Cox : No, with respect, I shall not give way.
Why are the managers, promoters and advisers often the people who organise boxing here? If boxers do not belong to their syndicate, they do not get a look in. That happens time and again. Will the Minister find out who controls British boxing and who appoints those who control it?
We all go into pubs and chat to people about sporting events. People say to me, "Tom, how do such things happen?" Why do boxers with the most appalling records come from other parts of the world to fight British boxers? The resulting fights are fiascos, as we have seen with fights arranged for Frank Bruno. We have a right to know who arranges and controls boxing in this country.
Mr. Key : I should very much welcome a quiet chat with the hon. Gentleman. I have explored that difficult problem with the British Boxing Board of Control. Like the hon. Gentleman, I am still a little confused about who runs British boxing.
Mr. Cox : I should willingly take up the Minister's offer, and I am sure that he would be only too willing for my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) to attend the meeting, as he could help us.
Seeing you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the Chair gives me pleasure. The subject of boxing has not been touched on in the debate, but I know that the sport of which you have a great love and in which you are involved, not only now that you are Deputy Speaker of the House but when you were a Back-Bench Member, is rugby league. From having served with you on Committees dealing with local government issues I know that you are deeply involved with Wakefield, as well as your constituency of Pontefract and Castleford--which both have rugby league clubs. I am sure that had you been on the Back Benches today you would rightly speak of the sport of rugby, which you support and of which you have such a wide knowledge. Sadly, that has not been discussed.
Many of us will have watched last week's match at Wembley on television ; and there is to be a great match in the north of England this week. I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will be there ; I only wish that I could be there with you. We do not have the opportunity to mention boxing and rugby league in debates such as today's, but I hope that we shall in future.
I do not criticise the Minister for painting the best picture of what is happening in sporting activities in this country, but there is another side. We shall have to wait and see whether the national lottery helps the position. Sadly, organisations that are now committed to working with young people are not receiving help. We know that young people love sport.
I sent a letter from the Methodist church dated 12 October which states :
"For three years we have sustained correspondence, completed grant aid application forms and, in some cases made visits to the new Authorities"--
local government ones.
Column 1303
"After all this work, in common with many similar bodies, we have only minimal offers of grant amounting to around £300 from any of these sources. Nearly all are unable or unwilling to take on, in whole or in part, this level of financial support.The financial support mentioned amounts to about £7,000 a year, which is not a large sum.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde that many local authorities that would like to help young people's sporting associations cannot do so, due to the legislation imposed on them by the Government. If we are talking of sport and trying to stop vandalism and crime, we must listen to such organisations. To his credit, the Minister paid tribute to the hours and hours of work that those associated with voluntary organisations give to this country, but if there is no willingness by our Government to make money available to such organisations, the youngsters and those who run the groups lose interest. The resources necessary cannot be raised by jumble sales and the sale of raffle tickets, although such methods can help.
I welcome both the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde to their Front-Bench posts. I hope that we shall have further such debates, but I beg the Minister to consider seriously having debates in future on specific sporting subjects. 1.44 pm
Mr. John Bowis (Battersea) : It is a pleasure to follow my close neighbour the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox). At one point, I thought that he was about to invite you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to engage in some sparring on the Floor of the House. I take the hon. Gentleman's point about boxing. Amateur boxing, in the best sense--as undertaken by boys' clubs and the like--is a tradition of the part of south London that we jointly represent. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will have noted the hon. Gentleman's point.
As I have explained to Madam Speaker, I could not be here for the beginning of the debate, although, thanks to the wonders of modern technology, I was able to see and hear the two Front-Bench speeches and thus to enjoy the challenge to my hon. Friend the Minister to meet the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) in the gym. I am not sure that I would wish to encourage such delights. My challenge to hon. Members is that they should first take part with me in Oxfam's forthcoming fast. That might make us fitter and more able to participate in gymnastics or in sporting activities more energetic than rising to our feet from these Benches.
My old sports--rugby and squash--are, alas, sports with which it is unwise to continue for too long, and these days my sporting activities tend to consist of walking in the Lake district or, more locally, wherever my border terrier chooses to take me.
Sport is important to the health and education of our society, and the role model provided by our fine sportsmen and women is important in encouraging good citizenship. One has only to think of my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Coe), Gary Lineker and Daley Thompson and the success stories of the recent Olympics. No one will forget our oarsmen's moment of triumph as they stood on the rostrum, the face of the cox--not the hon. Member for Tooting--creased with
Column 1304
emotion, while the British national anthem was played. I am sure that that great moment will have inspired many young people to take up rowing.My hon. Friend the Minister referred to sportsmen and women with disabilities and to the paralympics and paraplegic games. We should do whatever we can to encourage people with disabilities to take part in sport. That objective was for long neglected, but, in recent years, the opportunities have been much more evident and with the opportunities come the achievements that we salute. Disabled people should have the opportunity not just to participate but to spectate. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will continually remind sports bodies that they should provide access for people in wheelchairs. We need to be able to bring people to grounds and stadiums where there have traditionally been a lot of steps, narrow turnstiles and so on. Access to our great sporting grounds is as important to people with disabilities as their ability to participate in sport.
Some 35 million of our citizens participate in one sport or another. That is a great record. As the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde said, sport is also a great creator of jobs. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman gave the figures, but 467,000 jobs are now provided by sport in this country--an increase from 376,000 in 1985. Sport has a good record in providing jobs as well as a great deal of pleasure.
Sport provides £3.5 billion for the Exchequer, half of it in income tax and national insurance. For every £1 that sport receives in grants, it repays £7 to the taxpayer. For that reason, we need constantly to keep an eye on the tax burden on sport. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will be constantly aware of that in his talks with the Treasury. Where possible, the burden should be lifted or alleviated, and I am thinking particularly of the voluntary, non-profit making clubs and the amounts that they have to pay. Funding for sport will be boosted enormously by a national lottery. I am an unashamed supporter of that concept, which I hope will soon enable us to contribute to sport, the arts and heritage. The existing foundation has not been as good as we should have liked, not least because the pools promoters sought to finance sport and arts through the foundation by imposing a levy on punters rather than by taking money from their profits. The lottery will be a better way of raising finance, which will be over and above what the pools companies provide through their contributions and taxation.
Hon. Members have referred to school sport, on which the debate has rightly focused. I think that the Opposition now recognise the mistakes that some Labour-controlled local authorities made, especially those in London, and the damage that was done by their hostility to competitive sport. I know that the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde has a good record on fighting within his party to restore sport to schools. Nevertheless, there was a damaging period when it was excluded.
The Government included physical education in the national curriculum, which gave new opportunities to achieve health among the youth of our nation. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will talk to the Department for Education about the surveys that the Secondary Heads Association and the National Association of Head Teachers have conducted, which show a sad decrease in sport in our schools at weekends and after school hours. The last survey found that 71 per cent. of 14-year-olds had
Column 1305
less than two hours' physical education a week. Two hours should be the minimum and I hope that it can be restored as the norm. Some 89 per cent. of primary school teachers are involved in teaching physical education, but only 8 per cent. have any qualifications or training. In-service training must be considered carefully. I endorse what has been said about playing fields. Without the right facilities, particularly in schools, we cannot expect young people to have the opportunities that we wish for them. We must consider the question of selling playing fields, the circulars that have come from the Department in the past, and the grant-maintained schools. I believe that the Education Bill, which deals broadly with grant-maintained schools, has been given a First Reading today, so it may not be long before there is an opportunity to clarify this. I endorse what the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North -East (Mr. Campbell) said about drugs. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to look at the drug list, because there is some doubt about what drugs are on the list. Athletes take medicines for specificcomplaints--often in good faith--only to find that, unbeknown to them or their trainers, they are banned. We want to stop the cheats, but we must do so openly and fairly.
The hon. Member for Tooting and I share an interest in various football clubs, not least Wimbledon, which, thanks to difficulties in obtaining planning consent from Merton council, is experiencing ground problems. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will try to encourage people to get together to discuss the opportunities for the club ; otherwise there will be a danger of its being homeless, stateless, rootless and supporterless.
Last week, Wimbledon appeared live on television for the first time ever. That is thanks to the new television agreement with the premier league clubs and shows how that agreement can help the less fashionable clubs in the way that previous agreements did not. That is worth reporting.
I also pay tribute to the police forces of the country. An often-forgotten contribution that the taxpayer makes to sport is the funding of police in the areas around football grounds. They sometimes have a difficult task and should be saluted on performing it well.
I remind my hon. Friend the Minister of a private Member's Bill that I promoted some years ago to do with public safety information. It arose out of the Bradford fire tragedy, when it appeared that information had been made available by the emergency services to the club and to the local authority, but the public were unaware of it. We must always bear in mind the public's right to know if they are going into a place of risk, particularly if it is a sporting venue. It may be that a family sending children would not have done so had it known of the risk, thereby saving their lives. We must always keep this issue under observation.
Lastly, I join other London Members of Parliament, London having been an unsuccessful bidder for the Olympic games, in wishing Manchester good luck.
1.56 pm
Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) : I congratulate the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) on their Front-Bench appointments. I am sure that we all look forward to
Column 1306
debates on how to advance the cause of sport in Britain. I should be only too pleased to join hon. Members in a few rounds at the gym, if that challenge is generally open. I should also be only too pleased to challenge any Conservative Member who wished to join me in a game of squash. Bearing in mind what the Minister said about the dangers of that game, that may be the only way that we are likely to get the Government's majority down, as these promised Back-Bench rebellions never happen.I shall concentrate on two issues, the first of which is the excellent sporting facilities that we have in Sheffield, which were built for the world student games, the future for them and what we can do with them. The second is football grounds and their safety. The Minister's view of the quality of sporting facilities in this country is somewhat rosy. The reality is that in most sports, our major facilities do not bear comparison either in quality or in numbers with those of most other countries in Europe. For example, in Belgrade there are more Olympic-standard swimming pools than there are in Britain. That is repeated in many other sports. The examples for tennis were given by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies).
I take exception to the Minister's comments about what local authorities are able to do in the current financial climate. He mentioned that capital receipt rules had made the development of sporting facilities by local authorities more difficult. He did not say that, on top of that, since 1979 there have been succcessive and severe cuts in local authorities' borrowing abilities, particularly in the other services block, which is meant to provide resources for sporting development. He did not mention that leasing availability has been restricted by the most recent legislation.
The Minister did not mention another factor. Where local authorities have sought to enter into partnerships with the private sector, recent legislation has meant that when local authorities gave guarantees to enable the private sector to proceed on terms that it found acceptable, the guarantees effectively made all of that capital expenditure count as part of the local authorities' borrowing allocation and credit approval. That is another recent Government restriction. On top of that, capping is a major inhibiting factor in local authority spending on sport. Quite rightly, local authorities have to give priority to spending on education, social services and other key services when their resources are being steadily eroded. The example given of the village in Wiltshire and what it did is a great credit to the people in the area. However, what they could do with their resources cannot be repeated in inner-city Sheffield constituencies, where 30 per cent. or more of the people face unemployment. Those who are in employment often earn low wages and simply do not have the extra resources to contribute to such projects. They have to rely on local and central Government to find the money.
I turn now to the facilities available in Sheffield which were built for the world student games. The games had some financial difficulties, mainly caused by the inability to raise sponsorship money in what was becoming a difficult financial climate. However, the games did not default on their responsibilities, unlike the Edinburgh Commonwealth games a few years before. In sporting and organisational terms, the games were a success, and both Sheffield and British sport gained a great deal of credit. We
Column 1307
received a great deal of praise from competitors and sporting administrators from other countries for what was presented to them The facilities were recognised not merely as the best in Britain, but as being as good as anything available throughout the world. Great credit was paid to the Ponds Forge swimming complex which is as good as anything in the world. The Don Valley stadium is certainly the best athletics stadium in Britain and the indoor arena is the best indoor arena. I was disappointed that when the Minister gave a resume of the sporting facilities available in Britain, he did not mention one of the Sheffield sporting facilities, although they are acknowledged as being of international quality.I hope that we can enter a new period of more co-operation between Sheffield and the Government on these matters. We should consider how we can use the facilities for the future, because international events will come to them. The European swimming championships will come to Sheffield next year.
I greatly welcome the Government's support for the Manchester Olympic bid and I wish Manchester every success. It is important to Britain and to British sport. In the meantime, other things will happen in sport in Britain, many of them in Sheffield. I hope that the Government will consider how they can help by working together with local people in the city to maximise the benefit of the existing facilities for the benefit of Sheffield and of Britain.
Already the fact that the city sees sport as part of a package of economic regeneration has benefits in terms of employment. We have talked a lot about jobs directly involved in sport. The spin-off from sporting development can be significant in helping areas to regenerate when they have lost much of their basic industry. In the mid-1980s, Sheffield had unemployment of more than 4 per cent. above the national average and rising. We obviously have problems today ; everyone is suffering from the recession. At least unemployment in Sheffield is now only 2 per cent. above the national average, not 4 per cent. as it was a few years ago.
The facilities are not only available for international events ; the community is now using them. More than 1 million people used the swimming facilities within a year of their opening. The Minister referred to the Milton Keynes ice arena and to the success of the ice hockey team there. By comparison, the Sheffield Steelers ice hockey team attracts 8,000 people a week to watch ice hockey games, which is far in excess of any other ice hockey team in the country. Again, the team uses one of the facilities built for the games. All the facilities have been designed so that disabled people can participate in support and can watch sport in comfort, which is extremely important.
Sheffield, together with the local sporting organisations, seeks development programmes so that young people can become more expert in sport. One classic example in which I am sure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are interested, is the development of rugby league in Sheffield and the success of Sheffield Eagles. Success has come not only at the professional club. There has been a real development programme in which the city council, the Sports Council and governing bodies have come together to try to work at sports development. The development programme for rugby league, encouraging young people through the schools to start playing a sport that has not been traditional in the city, has been a great success.
Column 1308
In Sheffield, we believe that we are the city of sport. We now want to see how we can further the development programmes and bring together some of the best athletes and sports people in the country. We want to see how we can give them the benefits of our great facilities. We are therefore trying to launch a project known as Sport Sheffield. We would like the Government to support it and get involved in it.The idea of the project is to bring national sporting squads to the city to use the facilities and to work with the university, which is offering its help and expertise in sports and sports medicine, about which we have heard a great deal today. They will work with our tertiary colleges with the support of the Sheffield business community and the chamber of commerce. Already active discussions are taking place with the regional sports council. The Sports Council is on the project group, as are other governing bodies, especially those in charge of diving and volley-ball. We want to launch a pilot project in which those will be the two lead sports. Already 70 per cent. of the Olympic diving squad has been to Sheffield because of the facilities there. Now we want to put in a bid to the Sports Council for funding of the project which we believe is of great importance not only for the proper use of the facilities but because it will enable people, by benefiting from them, to make British sport competitive with sport in other countries.
We want to involve the British Olympic Association, the National Coaching Foundation, the British Association of Sports Sciences and the British Association of Sport and Medicine. We must not just sit back and admire the facilities that we have built in Sheffield. They are for the benefit of the local community and for British sport in general, providing national centres of sporting excellence. I hope that the Government will display their commitment to this important process.
My other main topic concerns football, football grounds and their safety. I agree with the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) about the development of the premier league. Its only success has been to put prices up. I cannot see what football fans have gained from that. The league was born of the greed and ambition of a handful of people and a small number of clubs. I regret the fact that football has fragmented. I should like football to unite under one governing body that would look after not only premier league and other professional clubs but the amateur game too, so that football could be seen as one game.
The premier league clubs may have made a wrong move by thinking to benefit from the money coming in from BSkyB. In the end Channel 4 stole a march on the whole proceedings. It saw a gap in the market and put on Italian soccer on Sunday afternoons. The vast majority of sports fans and of avid followers of football to whom I have spoken say that they would not buy a BSkyB dish when they can watch AC Milan play Fiorentina and see the difference between that style of play and what passes for football here in a game, say, between Wimbledon and Crystal Palace--a more direct way of playing. The premier league has done nothing to benefit football as a spectacle, and I hope that the Government will look into that.
I have been to every football ground in the country bar one, so I have seen a few of the problems and some of the deplorable facilities in our grounds. I welcome the Government's commitment to assisting football with improvements to those grounds, but the Government
Column 1309
turned a deaf ear to the pleas of football for many years before they decided to help. That did nothing to help develop football or the quality of facilities for spectators.Now we are thinking about safety. I was at Hillsborough that terrible day when the disaster occurred. I was the leader of the city council at the time and I took a particular interest in the licensing of football grounds. In response to the Government's proposals and the Taylor report, and in disagreement with some hon. Members who have spoken today, I must say that I do not regard the provision of seating and the provision of safe facilities as necessarily synonymous. I know that that view is not shared by all in the House, but I spoke to Lord Justice Taylor after he had made his report, when he came to meet politicians and football administrators in South Yorkshire. He said that if he had known that there was a move in football to remove the appalling so-called safety fences, which I believe were a major cause of the Hillsborough disaster as people could not get on to the pitch from the enclosure, he might not have been so firm in his recommendation for seats at football grounds. I welcome the Government's commitment to flexibility in respect of second and third division clubs. I should also like to see flexibility for premier and first division clubs. The rules for safety in standing areas are now more strict and more appropriate. There is a requirement for proper barriers, safety checks and a counting-in procedure. The problem at Hillsborough arose because there was no counting in for separated parts of the ground. Clubs are now obliged to carry out that clear Taylor recommendation. I believe that we should go further and also insist that fences in front of grounds should be removed as a major safety improvement.
I have seen seating areas at football grounds that are potentially more unsafe than many standing areas. Because of a shortage of money, clubs place seats on existing terracing. When people sit on them, they cannot see. As soon as the ball approaches a corner flag or the goal, they stand up. I have seen spectators standing on their seats for the last 10 minutes of a game to see what was happening. That is dangerous and it is happening at many football grounds.
The tragedy at Hillsborough occurred in a standing area although, as I have said, I believe that the problem involved the fences and the lack of a counting-in procedure. The Ibrox tragedy had nothing to do with the viewing area. It occurred when people left the ground. The tragedy at Bradford occurred in a seated area. It is no good simply to say that getting rid of standing areas is essential for safety at football grounds. Most grounds on the continent are not all-seater. There are standing areas at most continental grounds and those grounds seem to be able to cope.
I believe that the money would be better spent on safety per se rather than on a simple requirement to abolish standing areas. With regard to the consumer interests, the Football Supporters Association has stated that it does not believe that standing areas should be removed automatically from all football grounds. We should start to listen to people who go to matches every Saturday afternoon and enjoy their football in a way that may be anathema to people who have never stood on a kop behind
Column 1310
a goal and enjoyed that particular atmosphere. It should not be beyond our power to enable those people to enjoy football in absolute safety.I should like the Minister to commit himself to exploring, with all the people involved in Sheffield, ways forward to use our superb sporting facilities as centres of national excellence. I also ask for a reconsideration of the requirement that football grounds in the premier and first division should be all-seater ones. I do not believe that that is necessarily the best way to make grounds safer and better places for people to watch football.
2.12 pm
Mr. Pendry : With the leave of the House, I want to intervene for a few minutes. I am sure that the Minister would agree that it is better for all hon. Members to take part in a debate than to have long winding-up speeches. It is important that the Minister should have the longer time to reply because he has been asked many questions.
I am sure that the Minister will have realised by now the wisdom of promoting this debate. A great deal of popular acclaim has been heaped on him. My gosh, I have never known a Tory Minister be praised as much as the Minister has been in this debate. In fact, I am beginning to suspect some of my colleagues.
We have heard some very constructive speeches and I would normally want to refer to some of them and to the points that were made. However, I will not do that because it is important that the Minister should reply to the debate. The hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) was more constructive than ever. If ever there was an occasion when a sinner repenteth on the question of sports boycotts, it occurred today and long may that continue.
I want to refer to only one point. My hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) would not allow me to intervene when he wanted to know who should control boxing. As a steward of British Boxing Board of Control, I was about to answer his point. However, it will be sufficient for me to participate in the meeting with my hon. Friend the Minister and educate them both.
It has been an extremely good debate. Long may we have debates of this kind. I once more congratulate the Minister on initiating it. 2.14 pm
Mr. Key : With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I should like to reply to the debate.
When my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) first addressed the House as Secretary of State for National Heritage, he made it absolutely clear that he intended that the purpose of the Department of National Heritage should be to improve the quality of life for everybody wherever they are, and to improve access to sport, and that he would always do his best to ensure that it did not become a matter of party political wrangling. He stood true to those objectives, as do my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I.
This has been a remarkable debate. It has also been well informed. It proves again that the House of Commons is the best university in the country. There is always somebody who is a great expert on whatever happens to be under discussion at the time, and that has certainly been true of this debate.
Fourteen hon. Members, including myself, have contributed to the debate. The hon. Member for
Column 1311
Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) made a very challenging speech and I shall attempt to answer the questions that he raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle), who spoke wisely about expenditure in sport, has spent all his time in the House as an expert on sport. The hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies) made a distinguished speech. I shall try to pick up some of his points, particularly those about television and sport. My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) spoke enthusiastically, energetically and passionately about smoking and health, as well as about other issues, including swimming, which are important to his constituency.The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) also spoke. We perfectly understand his disappearance to Inverness. We sympathise with him in his long travel and hope that he arrives there. If it is on skis, what a wonderful entry it will make for him. The hon. and learned Gentleman made important points, some of which I responded to at the time. My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs) spoke with great enthusiasm about the lottery, and I was grateful for that.
The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan), with whom I spent a happy time on the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts from 1984, spoke with passion about Hopwood Hall college and the role that that institution hoped to achieve. He laid down a challenge which will be hard to resist when I am in the north-west, which I am glad to say I regularly am. I shall certainly bear in mind his kind invitation and weigh carefully the arguments that he laid before the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) spoke with great sprightliness about physical fitness, and she is a fine example to all of us, if I may say so, on that subject. She also spoke with passion about education being about not only mental education but moral and physical education as well. The hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) spoke about the Saints. I give him the assurance that he seeks. I will indeed have another look at whether there is anything that I can do, possibly in conjunction with my hon. Friend the Minister in the Department of the Environment with responsibility for planning. We will see how we might be able to help.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Deva) spoke warmly of the Bees and wider issues. I am grateful to him for having such a broad knowledge of the issues which confront the Government and indeed all those concerned with sport.
The hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) spoke passionately, too, about boxing. When I was 10 years old, I won the school boxing cup. If you look closely at my nose, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you will discover that it has a slight bend at one point. However, that was caused not in the boxing ring but in the swimming bath by hitting the bottom rather too fast.
My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) mentioned the importance of policing at all our sporting events. It does not matter whether one goes to football matches or to grand prix races, one finds that the police are always there with the other emergency services. If it were not for them, and often for the services of the St. John Ambulance Brigade and of other voluntary organisations, sporting events would be more dangerous and less easy to control. I join my hon. Friend in thanking all those dedicated men and women for their contribution to sport.
Column 1312
The hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) spoke with great knowledge about Sheffield and its sporting contribution. I must say in response to his challenge to join him, whether in the gymnasium or elsewhere, that from looking at him he clearly has absolutely no stamina and I would go many rounds further than him in almost any sport. But that is enough of that.The hon. Gentleman made important comments which I shall deal with later. I am well aware of Sheffield's investment in sporting facilities. I have seen them and they are impressive. Sheffield is fortunate to have them. The Sports Council is working on initiatives to designate certain cities as cities of sport which would be equipped to host international sporting events. I urge the hon. Gentleman to encourage Sheffield city council to make its views known to the Sports Council if it has not already done so. We cannot ignore the issue. We have many fine international sporting venues and we need to take the initiative forward constructively.
We have had a constructive debate. It has been a breath of fresh air in ventilating an issue about which so many people feel passionately. I sometimes have to point out to my colleagues in the Government that, whereas they scan the column inches, we scan the number of pages which deal with all the issues that confront the Department of National Heritage every day. Therefore, I look forward to many more debates on sport.
I noted the comments of the hon. Member for Tooting about the need to have debates on specific sporting issues. Of course, it will be up to the business managers to decide whether we should have an annual debate on sport, but they will have noted the success of today's debate. I shall make it clear that I wish to have more debates on sport. It is significant that today's debate was the first debate on sport that the Conservative Government have initiated in Government time.
Funding has occupied a great deal of time. I paid tribute earlier to the role of local authorities. Several hon. Members called for additional resources. As my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North said, it is too easy to call for extra money. We need to be sure that the money currently devoted to sport is well used. As I said, compulsory competitive tendering has helped local authorities. City challenge has also targeted money to inner-city areas. My predecessor published a document on sport in inner cities. I recognise that it is crucial, for social reasons and to the health of people who live in the inner cities, that we do what we can to encourage sport and the provision of sporting facilities.
Of course, I am aware that the best local authorities are good. I have met them ; I have been there ; I have seen it. However, there is some way to go before we have a general assurance of value for money. That is not a party- political comment. I have seen the good and the bad under all types of political control and none. We must be sure that clear objectives are set to which resources are applied economically and efficiently.
My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North also referred to the need to control administrative costs in sport. We shall examine carefully the future control of administrative costs in the new United Kingdom sports commission and the sports council for England. That will occur as part of the current national structural reforms. I welcome the broad support of the House for the current reforms. It may help if I make a few remarks about the role of the United Kingdom Sports Council. The
| Next Section
| Home Page |