| Home Page |
Column 1
T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 27 APRIL 1992]
FORTY-FIRST YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 214
EIGHTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1992-93
House of Commons
Monday 16 November 1992
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
WALES
School Governors
2. Mr. Martyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what further steps he will take to inform school governors of their rights and obligations under local management of schools.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : Before I reply to the hon. Member for Clwyd, South-West (Mr. Jones), I hope that you, Madam Speaker, will allow me to welcome the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) to the Opposition Front Bench as this is his first Question Time as Opposition spokesman on Welsh affairs. We will shortly be distributing to all governors updated versions of "School Governors--A Guide to the Law". This contains a great deal of useful information for governors including advice on managing a school's budget and staffing.
Mr. Jones : The Minister of State was slightly remisss in not congratulating Llanelli on their win over the Wallabies when he congratulated my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), our new shadow spokesman on Welsh affairs.
Column 2
Does the Minister acknowledge that there has been a problem with the governors of locally managed schools and grant- maintained status schools which was only recently acknowledged by the Secretary of State for Education with the new Education Bill? Does the Minister agree that being a school governor at the moment is quite a hazardous occupation in respect of liability for health and safety and the Food Safety Act 1990?Sir Wyn Roberts : Certainly, governors do valuable work. There are 20,000 school governors in Wales and between 12,000 and 13,000 of them were due to be reappointed or to be appointed anew this term. They have a great deal of responsible work, but, according to the reaction that I have received, they are taking their work very seriously and are doing extremely well.
Mr. Richards : Does my right hon. Friend agree that local management of schools has been an outstanding success and that grant-maintained schools will be an even greater success? What measures does my right hon. Friend intend to take to stop local education authorities under the control of Opposition parties from mounting scurrilous campaigns against those schools, and their governors and parents, that are considering applying for grant-maintained status?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Certainly, I agree with my hon. Friend that LMS has been a great success in Wales. Six hundred and fifty primary schools and 200 secondary schools are now locally managed and all schools will be locally managed by April 1995. It is indeed a short step from local management to grant-maintained status. I agree with my hon. Friend that parents who wish to consider grant-maintained status should be given fair play and should certainly not be bombarded by local education authorities. We are taking steps in the Education Bill to ensure that the amount of money spent by LEAs is equivalent to the amount of money that could be spent by a school seeking grant-maintained status.
Mr. Wigley : The Minister must surely be aware of the groundswell of opinion against the provisions that were put forward in the consultation paper in the summer and
Column 3
the implications that they have for all schools in Wales. May I press him on guidance to governors with regard to special needs education? Is he aware that many governors will not have a background in respect of the special resources that are needed, and that, if they have to make value judgments on the use of available resources, they may not have the necessary backgrounds to reach such decisions? What steps is the Minister taking to safeguard the needs of those who require special education?Sir Wyn Roberts : There is a later question, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows, about special educational needs. However, over the past four years we have spent £12 million on support and training for school governors in Wales, so they should know about children with special educational needs.
Mr. Ron Davies : May I thank the Minister for the kind words with which he started this Question Time? I hope that he will enjoy my stay at the Dispatch Box as much as I shall.
When the Minister informs LMS schools of their rights, and, incidentally, tries to bribe them into opting out, will he be slightly more honest than he has been recently in his analysis of LEA expenditure? Not all Welsh local education authorities are underspending on education. Why does he not admit that there is no pot of unspent gold, as he suggests? If schools are bribed into opting out, that will be at the expense of the majority of schools in Wales which will not opt out. Why does he not accept that?
Sir Wyn Roberts : There is no bribing whatsoever. Through grant- maintained status we are ensuring that schools get their proper share of the money. The hon. Gentleman must know that local education authorities retain a substantial amount of money to maintain their services and their local bureaucracy. With regard to capital allocations, I have made the point clear again and again that there has been an underspend of 15 per cent. overall in Wales in the amount of capital spent on schools and colleges. There was a similar underspend, although not as large, last year and, indeed, the year before.
EC Funding
3. Mr. Dafis : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to seek objective 1 status for Wales, or parts of Wales, under the structural funds of the European Community.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : May I also add my words of congratulation to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies)? I think that I am the third Secretary of State for Wales in 13 years and he is the third shadow spokesman in 13 weeks, but I wish him well for many years to come as Opposition spokesman on Wales. On question 3, I shall of course be submitting to the EC proposals to secure the maximum support for Wales from the structural funds.
Mr. Dafis : I am sure that the Secretary of State recognises, or at least I hope that he recognises, the immense importance of strengthening the structural funds--the only hope for a vigorous regional policy in Wales. Is he willing to undertake to attend the Edinburgh summit
Column 4
and represent Welsh interests directly and specifically in talks about the importance of the structural funds for the development of the Welsh economy?Mr. Hunt : So far as the Edinburgh summit is concerned, of course we work through our colleagues in the normal way, but I will personally undertake to do everything possible to secure the maximum possible support for Wales under the structural funds. As the hon. Gentleman knows, such matters are governed by the nomenclature for territorial statistical units, which is known affectionately in the Community as NUTS, and the NUTS classification is very important. Notwithstanding that, I will do my best to secure the maximum resources for Wales.
Mr. Jonathan Evans : Will my right hon. Friend, in putting together his submission in support of aid under the structural funds, draw specific attention to the survey that was published in the Financial Times on 12 November, confirming the excellent record that has been achieved by the Welsh Office in ensuring that Wales is ahead of the league in the whole of the United Kingdom in attracting inward investment throughout the 1980s?
Mr. Hunt : The partnership with the European Community, with local authorities, with central Government and with the Welsh Development Agency has meant that Wales has consistently won record levels of international investment, as the report bears out. Just as the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and I were at Stradey park on Saturday to watch Llanelli gain a brilliant victory, so Wales wins in the world.
Mr. Barry Jones : I warn the right hon. Gentleman not to strip Deeside of development area status. That would imperil its objective 2 status. Does he agree that this would be the wrong time, during a slump and with rising unemployment, to detract from the assisted area status map of Wales? May I warn him that the steel industry in Europe, Britain and Wales is under severe pressure and ask him what be intends to do to safeguard Wales's steel interests?
Mr. Hunt : In Wales we are proud to have some of the finest steel plants anywhere in the world, with a producitivity to match that of anywhere in the world.
As for assisted area status, I am about to meet a delegation from Clwyd county council about it, and I will of course bear what the hon. Gentleman says in mind.
Mr. Ron Davies : I thank the Secretary of State for his courtesy. I may be the third shadow that he has had to face in 13 weeks, but I assure him that I fully intend to be the next Secretary of State, representing a Welsh constituency.
The fact is that we in Wales need all the help that we can get, from the European Community and from the Government. Wales is now at the bottom of the British wages league. Last week's autumn statement will be a bitter blow. One third of Welsh workers in the public sector are already on low wages, and in effect they now face a pay cut.
Why will not the Secretary of State accept that, with rising unemployment and poverty wages, the last thing that Wales needs is a question mark hanging over its assisted area status in the important belt from Bridgend to Cwmbran--and as my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) said, beside the Dee estuary ?
Column 5
I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's undertaking to consult, but why does he not give the House an assurance that he will fight for assisted area status in Wales ? Why will he not assure us that he will fight for Wales ?Mr. Hunt : I am delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman intends to remain Labour spokesman for many years to come. I am pleased that the game of musical chairs has stopped, and I wish him well as Opposition spokesman for many years to come.
Since I became Secretary of State, wages in Wales have risen faster than the average in the United Kingdom-- [Interruption.] --that is a statistical fact. But I also recognise that there is a longstanding problem in Wales. I want many more high-quality, highly paid jobs to come to Wales. I repeat what I have said about the importance of bearing in mind all representations received on assisted area status.
A470
4. Mr. Knox : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the improvement of the A470 ; and what work has been done so far.
Sir Wyn Roberts : Since 1979 over £115 million has been spent on the A470. We have plans to spend a further £120 million including the major improvements shown in the 1992 "Supplement to Roads in Wales".
Mr. Knox : Does my right hon. Friend expect that the whole route will eventually be upgraded to dual carriageway standard ? If so, can he give any idea of when that might happen ?
Sir Wyn Roberts : There is no economic or environmental justification for upgrading the whole route to dual carriageway standard. Our policy is to undertake selective improvements for safety reasons and to reduce journey times.
Mr. Rowlands : If the economy is to be made to grow by investing in capital projects, is there not a better scheme to extend the A470 than the one from Pentrebach to Cefn Coed ? Will the right hon. Gentleman move heaven and earth to bring in the scheme ahead of schedule and get it started in 1993 ? Will the Minister at least assure us that the development of the A470 scheme will not be the subject of any silly experiments along the lines of private financing or tolling, as foreshadowed in the autumn statement ?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The Pentrebach to Defn Coed scheme is one of the bypasses envisaged under the plans that I just mentioned. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the supplement for "Roads for Wales" he will find the time band in which it has been placed. Meanwhile, the draft line side road orders were published in September and draft compulsory purchase orders are expected to be published this month. A public inquiry could be held in the spring of 1993.
Mr. Jonathan Evans : Is my hon. Friend aware that many of my constituents will be greatly relieved to hear that he does not propose to drive a dual carriageway through some of the loveliest parts of mid Wales, where there is clearly no economic demand for such a road. On behalf of my constituents, I ask him for an assurance that the representations made at the presentation in Builth
Column 6
Wells, concerning the proposed bypass, will be closely considered by his Department before any announcement is made?Sir Wyn Roberts : I can certainly give my hon. Friend the last assurance that he requested. Consideration is being given to the views expressed following public consultation. I am glad that he agrees that, on environmental grounds, there is no case for upgrading the whole route ; nevertheless, as he knows, many parts of it require improvement.
Mr. Alex Carlile : While there is no requirement for a dual carriageway throughout Wales from north to south, will the Minister tell the House by what date we can expect a decent-quality trunk road from north to south Wales? Will it be in this century or in the next?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Certainly we are improving the A470 and the A483. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the considerable improvements that have been carried out. I have mentioned that among our future plans are the Pentrebach, Cefn Coed, Merthyr bypass, the Builth Wells western and eastern bypass, the diversion east of Llangurig to Wern Villa, the Commins Coch bypass, the Lledr Valley improvements and the Llanwrst bypass, with a possible further improvement to the Pontypridd to Coryton section of the A470. We expect considerable progress, in addition to the considerable improvements which have already been carried out.
Council Housing
5. Mr. Llwyd : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his Department's latest estimate of the number of people on local authority waiting lists for rented housing ; and what is his planning figure for the number of new public sector rented housing units which will become available next year.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : Information on local authority waiting lists is not available centrally. Decisions on resources to local authorities following last week's autumn statement, will be announced shortly.
Mr. Llwyd : In view of the large amount of informed opposition to Tai Cymru's recent discussion document, does the Minister agree that the proposal in it--that there should be housing on a development scale of 50 to 200 units, centred in four or five geographical areas of Wales--is utterly unsuited to the needs of rural Wales? Does he further agree that it flies in the face of the purpose of setting up Tai Cymru, which it was said was for local and sensitive development? Finally, does he agree that it would be far preferable to purchase existing housing stock and to refurbish rather than to build?
Mr. Jones : Tai Cymru's consultative process finished on 31 October. I hope that the hon. Gentleman took the opportunity to submit his comments. I know that Tai Cymru is keeping an open mind and will consider fully all representations made to it, as I am keeping an open mind on the matter. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to announce last week a further £38 million to be spent before the end of this financial year and I look forward to that adding about 1,000 new homes for rent in Wales.
Column 7
Mr. Roger Evans : On waiting lists, can my right hon. Friend explain the other side of the issue and tell us how far Welsh housing stock has increased in recent times?
Mr. Jones : I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that Housing for Wales and the housing associations have been making superb progress. This year more than 4,000 new homes will be added to the stock, which is a tremendous step forward by Housing for Wales.
Mr. Kinnock : Is not it plain that last Thursday's statement was, in respect of housebuilding, both incompetent and misleading? Is not it obvious that if local authorities must depend on additional sales to generate funds for new building in the middle of a housing slump, new building is unlikely to take place? Would not it have been much better, for the sake of the slump-hit construction industry as well as to meet housing needs in Wales, if the Chancellor had allowed local authorities properly to release their capital assets so that we could get on with some real building?
Mr. Jones : I feel that I may be in a unique position in trying to answer a question from the right hon. Gentleman. I am not sure whether he has previously asked a question since he returned to the Back Benches. I fear that he may have missed the point because the £38 million is to provide some 1,000 new homes. It is extra money provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the matter forward. The point that he misses about past capital receipts is that all of that money, except that allowed by special dispensation, has been used permanently or temporarily to offset debts that have already been run up.
Mr. Murphy : If the Minister is unwilling to say how many people in Wales are waiting for council houses, may I be permitted to tell the House that between 80,000 and 90,000 people in the whole of the Principality are on council house waiting lists? If capital receipts in the next 13 months are to be used to try to build new houses at a time when it is unlikely that people will want to sell them in any event, what logic is there that nearly £600 million-worth of capital receipts, which are still tied up in our local authority coffers, cannot be used? Is not the Minister's suggestion a crazy nonsense?
Mr. Jones : No. The crazy nonsense is the fallacy to which the hon. Gentleman still clings. Except for the dispensation already allowed for, housing receipts have been used temporarily or permanently to offset the debt that has already been run up. Even after allowing for all redemption, Welsh local councils still have a debt of some £1 billion, which must be paid for by the people of Wales.
Railways
6. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of British Rail to discuss the reduction in services along the north Wales coast main line.
Sir Wyn Roberts : My right hon. Friend last met Sir Bob Reid on 7 September. They discussed a number of issues, including services in north Wales.
Mr. Jones : In his letter to me dated 9 November, the Secretary of State for Wales said that reports that rolling stock from the north Wales inter-city service would be
Column 8
withdrawn for franchise services were without foundation. However, we all know that during the summer that rolling stock was under considerable threat, as Richard Branson and others were bidding for franchise services. Will the Secretary of State now come clean on the issue? Was there a threat to inter-city services this year as a result of the franchising proposals? Will he give a categorical assurance that those services will continue when the next franchising proposals come forward in 1994 and, if they are to continue, that all services will begin and end at Holyhead?Sir Wyn Roberts : I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome the privatisation of British Rail and franchising, because it is possible that the north Wales coastal services will do considerably better. The hon. Gentleman knows only too well that direct services from London to Holyhead are to be reduced from three to two--[ Hon. Members : -- "Disgraceful."] Yes, but we do not run British Rail. It is not for us to involve ourselves in operational matters, which are entirely for British Rail. If I were the hon. Gentleman, I should be looking forward to the privatisation of British Rail and to franchising.
Mr. Rogers : When the Minister meets the chairman of British Rail to discuss services in north Wales, will he remind him that the valley lines in south Wales have experienced enormous problems with the lack of capital funding? As a result, they now state that they hope that there will be no demand--
Madam Speaker : Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is moving around rather geographically.
Mr. Rogers : It is a branch line.
Madam Speaker : Order. I know my Wales better than that. If the hon. Gentleman can stay within the question, he may have a supplementary, but if he is moving I am afraid that he cannot and we must move on.
Dr. Marek : As a north Wales Member, may I ask the Minister whether he accepts that at the last general election almost twice as many people voted Labour as voted Conservative? The hon. Gentleman has no mandate to be a Minister for Wales. In answer to an earlier question, he sought to wash his hands of services provided by British Rail for north Wales. He should make way for somebody else.
Madam Speaker : Order. That was by no means a parliamentary question. We shall now move on to question 7. I hope that the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) will do rather better.
Neath and Port Talbot Hospital
7. Mr. Hain : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about Welsh Office capital allocations for the planned Neath and Port Talbot hospital.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : In my right hon. Friend's statement on 29 October he advised that capital allocations were available for the next infrastructure works on site. It will be for West Glamorgan health authority to bring forward its requirements for future capital allocations.
Mr. Hain : I shall endeavour to stay within the perimeters of Neath and Port Talbot, Madam Speaker. The Minister has not denied that there is a view among the
Column 9
mandarins in the Welsh Office that Neath hospital, in which local people take considerable pride, will be downgraded to a new cottage hospital on Baglan moor--centralising trauma in Morriston and maternity in Singleton--thus reneging on a commitment given to the House last year by the Secretary of State. Will the Minister give an absolute and categorical assurance that the £18 million capital allocation for the construction of the new hospital, with all its planned specialties, will go ahead as originally planned?Mr. Jones : I know of no suggestion that there shall be a cottage hospital for the new provision for Neath and Port Talbot. In addition to my right hon. Friend's statement last year, he specifically said in a statement on 29 October that we remain committed to a new hospital on the site at Baglan. We seek to go further and have asked West Glamorgan health authority to conduct a review into the best balance of services in addition to the hospital at Baglan.
Hospitals, South Glamorgan
8. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on future hospital provision in the area of South Glamorgan health authority.
Mr. David Hunt : This is a matter at the present time for the health authority.
Mr. Morgan : We in the Cardiff area are concerned about the delay in knowing exactly how many hospitals are to remain open and how many will be closed. As I have received letters from consultants at one of our leading hospitals, Llandough, saying that junior hospital doctors do not have any work to do, the Secretary of State will naturally, I hope, share my concern that the Under-Secretary of State, who is responsible for health matters in Wales, should think of giving up complacency for Lent. There is one big difference between the Under-Secretary and me as the two Ministers responsible for health matters in Wales. If I roll up my right trouser leg, it is to show people--
Madam Speaker : Order. I should appreciate it if the hon. Gentleman remained within the terms of his question.
Mr. Morgan : The point about the future of health provision and hospitals is that they have to be run by people who have a genuine interest in their proceedings and who do not make provision for appointing their own secretaries to the board of the health authority.
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman is not one of the Ministers responsible for the health service in Wales and he never will be. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I have seen in South Glamorgan an increase in expenditure from £57 million in 1978-79 to £218 million this year. As a result, health care in South Glamorgan has improved considerably. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Llandough hospital. It received one of only 36 chartermarks awarded in the United Kingdom ; that award is based on the highest standards of service and the high standards offered by the hospital. The hon. Gentleman should rethink what he says before he spouts his script without reference to what is happening on the ground in South Glamorgan.
Column 10
Mr. Sweeney : How many more people are being treated in Welsh hospitals than were treated in 1979? Is that not the real test of the success of the health service?
Mr. Hunt : We have seen enormous increases in resources, from £57.8 million to £218.3 million. Over the past year alone, the in -patient list in South Glamorgan has come down 12 per cent., and the number of people waiting over a year for in-patient treatment is down 34 per cent. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the achievements of South Glamorgan. I pay tribute to all those who work in the health service in South Glamorgan, and I ask them not to pay attention to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) and instead to pay attention to the achievements of the Government and the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Mr. Sweeney).
Mr. Michael : If everything is so marvellous, why have wards at Llandough been closed when there are patients waiting for operations? As the question is about future provision, why is it that, since 1987, we have not had a proper plan for the future of hospitals in South Glamorgan, the plan produced then was unsatisfactory and was only partially approved and the planning of health services in South Glamorgan is in such a shambles?
Mr. Hunt : It is not in a shambles. The health authority asked in 1989 whether it might review its strategic plan and that is the review which is taking place. That is why the answer to the original question was that this is a matter for the health authority to determine.
Special Needs Education
9. Dr. Kim Howells : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what extra resources have been allocated for special needs education in Wales for 1993-94.
Sir Wyn Roberts : It is for local authorities themselves to decide how much to make available for special educational needs, but we are doing all that we can to encourage improved provision. Next year, for example, there will be a 17 per cent. increase in the grants available for training teachers of pupils with special education needs and, for the first time, funding to encourage the integration of children with special educational needs in mainstream schools. That is on top of a parallel initiative under our all-Wales mental handicap strategy for those with severe learning difficulties.
Dr. Howells : Does the Minister know that attempts have already been made to integrate into state schools children who are suffering from one impediment or another, and some have been successful? Throughout Wales, parents of those children are at a loss to understand how funding will be provided in the future, with all the gimmicks and experiments that are going on in self-financing and so on, and are desperate to know what the Government intend to do about what encompasses some of the vulnerable elements in society. Does the Minister agree that children who are afflicted in this way should at least be given an equal opportunity to make progress with their peers?
Sir Wyn Roberts : I agree with the hon. Gentleman's last statement. The whole policy of integrating children with special needs in mainstream schools was initiated by the
Column 11
Government in 1989. I realise only too well that resources are necessary, but they can be held back by local education authorities or delegated to schools. There is a duty on the LEAs to ensure that, where children are statemented, provision is made to meet their needs. We know that some children are not statemented but have special educational needs. My impression is that the entire education system, in every kind of school--LEA maintained, grant maintained or whatever--is paying special attention to the needs of those children.Mr. Richards : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Education Bill which was given its Second Reading last week will improve matters for such special needs children and their parents?
Sir Wyn Roberts : I agree with my hon. Friend. The Bill will improve matters by enabling parents to express a preference for a school in the maintained sector, speeding up the assessment and statementing process, extending parents' rights of appeal and setting up an independent appeals tribunal to replace the current system of local appeals and appeals to the Secretary of State. Furthermore, in this coming year we shall spend £1.1 million on training teachers for children with special educational needs.
Mr. Gareth Wardell : Can the Minister advise parents in Wales who believe that their children deserve to be statemented, when they are in classes with those who have already been statemented, and who feel that their children are suffering a tremendous injustice? What would the Minister advise those parents to do?
Sir Wyn Roberts : That is one of the points that I covered on Second Reading of the Education Bill, which is due to go into Committee tomorrow. The Bill deals with parents' rights and it enables parents to have a far greater say about the education of special needs children.
House Building
10. Mr. Alex Carlile : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many new houses were built by (a) councils and (b) housing associations in Wales in 1979, 1989 and 1991 ; if he will make a statement on the performance of Tai Cymru, Housing for Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : Figures are not available for 1979-80 in respect of new homes. In the remaining two years, local authorities built 301 and 119 and housing associations built 534 and 1,003 respectively. Housing association stock has increased by more than one half since the inception of Housing for Wales in 1989.
Mr. Carlile : On the question of quantity, will the Minister tell the House his excuse for the burgeoning shortage of houses to rent in rural areas of Wales? On the question of quality, will the Minister join me in expressing sympathy to the family of Stanley Gregory, who died on Saturday having been burned in a property owned by Cartrefi Cymru housing association, to which he had been transferred under care in the community provisions? Will he ensure that, in future, those who go from hospitals into the community receive nursing care as part of that care in the community?
| Next Section
| Home Page |