House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Nov 1992

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Mr. Jones : I join the hon. and learned Gentleman in offering my condolences to the family. I am aware of that sad case, which is being closely looked at by officials of my Department.

On rural housing, I remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that Housing for Wales has contributed £35 million towards meeting housing needs in rural areas, in addition to a further £10 million that has generally come from local authorities. The need for new homes is accepted, but again I must point out to the hon. and learned Gentleman that, since the Conservative party came to power, 126,000 new homes in Wales have been provided, which is an increase of more than 11 per cent., while the population has grown by less than 3 per cent.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Crown Prosecution Service

30. Mr. Lidington : To ask the Attorney-General what steps he is taking to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Crown prosecution service.

The Attorney-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : The Crown prosecution service is continuing to develop best practice on a national basis through the national operational practice initiative. It is continuing to recruit high-quality lawyers and is making substantial progress in the implementation of the recommendations of the working group on pre-trial issues.

Mr. Lidington : I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Is he aware of the problems that the CPS has caused to the police service in Aylesbury and elsewhere by its insistence that the police should supply it with lengthy written summaries of tape-recorded interviews? That insistence is causing police officers to spend hours seated at word processors instead of being out on the beat catching criminals. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that is a waste of time? Will he consider whether the situation could be improved?

The Attorney-General : I understand my hon. Friend's point, but I would strongly acquit the CPS of the use of the word "caused". The use of summaries is standard procedure, but I recognise the advantage of typed transcripts, done by typists, straight off. That can provide tremendous benefits to the criminal justice system, as can the immediate typing of all the papers at that stage.

Mr. Skinner : Is the Attorney-General satisfied that at all times the CPS gets the right people charged? Is he satisfied that its effectiveness and efficiency, which resulted in the three Matrix Churchill people being brought before the court, were correct? Would it not have been more proper for all those Cabinet members to be brought before the court, instead of those three people? Is it not a coincidence that that case managed to last over the general election and was sub judice for all that time, so the real truth could not come out about Iraq-gate? If it had, we would have been faced with a different situation in that general election-- where the Prime Minister and all the rest of them would have been referred to as the guilty men, and not the three people in that case.

The Attorney-General : The hon. Gentleman's comments are as riddled with confusion as any of those that we have heard recently. An important feature of our

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prosecuting system is that it is independent. The prosecuting authority in the Matrix Churchill case was Customs and Excise, an independent prosecuting authority which employed independent counsel. The independent leading counsel is someone of great experience who is much respected in his profession. He acted throughout with complete integrity--as, I believe, did everyone involved in the prosecution process.

Mr. Wilkinson : Is it my right hon. and learned Friend's belief that the Crown prosecution service is a more reliable prosecuting authority than Customs and Excise, which brought a successful case against Ordnance Technology in the Crown court in Reading last February? It led to the convinction of three directors of that company and two other personnel on charges relating to the transfer of weapon-making equipment, supposedly to Jordan. Will my right hon. and learned Friend examine that matter as well?

The Attorney-General : If I understand my hon. Friend correctly, he is worried about the propriety of a particular case. Although I do not know enough about that case, I think that he may well be able to refer it to the independent inquiry to be set up shortly and chaired by Lord Justice Scott.

Mr. Alex Carlile : Will the Attorney-General confirm that if the Scott inquiry shows there to be evidence of criminal offences by any person, however high his position and whether or not he be a Member of the House, the same level of independence will be applied to possible prosecutions as that about which the right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke earlier?

The Attorney-General : I confirm that absolutely. The prosecuting process in this country is carried out by independent prosecuting authorities without fear or favour and without regard in that sense to whomsover it may have to consider.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the allegations by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) were superbly refuted by leading and junior counsel in the case, who said that everything had been carried out with complete propriety and that Ministers could not avoid their responsibilities? Were not those points made clear by prosecuting counsel when laying the papers before the court?

The Attorney-General : My hon. Friend makes valid points, all of which will be capable of being considered learnedly, independently and impartially by Lord Justice Scott when he carries out his inquiry.

Mr. Fraser : Is not it the duty of the Attorney-General--both as head of the prosecution service and because of his inherent power to put an end to any prosecution, whether brought by the CPS, Customs and Excise or anybody else--to undertake that never again will he allow a prosecution to proceed where he had personally obliged Ministers to sign immunity certificates and where, if the judge had believed what those Ministers were saying, innocent people might have been sent to prison?

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman's duty to justice greater than the duty to Ministers to hide behind immunity certificates? Just what is the authority for saying that immunity certificates are mandatory? Surely somebody could use some common sense in these cases.

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The Attorney-General : First, I agree with one of the hon. Gentleman's points--that the duty to justice supervenes all others. That said, I was surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman repeating a number of points that, quite frankly, are badly made and ill-founded.

The hon. Gentleman and I frequently ask and answer questions across the Dispatch Box, so with all respect I say to him that he is mistaken in a number of his suggestions. However, all those matters will be capable of being properly investigated by Lord Justice Scott.

Sentencing

31. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General how often he has appealed against the leniency of sentences since he was granted that power.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Derek Spencer) : Since 1 February 1989, when the power to seek leave to appeal against an unduly lenient sentence came into effect, 103 references have been made to the Court of Appeal, including nine references to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland. As at last Friday, 69 references have been determined. In 56 of those the original sentence has been increased--more than 80 per cent.

Mr. Marshall : Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the Court of Appeal and the Attorney-General have combined to create entirely acceptable sentences that can be applied in future sentencing policy? Does he agree also that the high success rate emphasises the extreme folly of those who opposed the introduction of the new power by this House?

The Solicitor-General : My hon. Friend is right. We hear a great deal from the Labour party about justice, but let us examine the Opposition's record when the provisions passed through the House. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said that they were "wrong in principle", had been introduced for political purposes, and would impose

"political influence and political pressure on sentencing."--[ Official Report, 18 January 1988 ; Vol. 125, c. 692.]

That was an astonishing complaint because the letters that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General receives asking for cases to be referred include a considerable number from Labour Members. Have they changed their policy in the meantime?

War Crimes Act 1991

32. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the operation of the War Crimes Act 1991.

The Attorney-General : The special unit established by the Metropolitan police is investigating all the allegations made to the Hetherington/Chalmers inquiry, together with other allegations made subsequently to the police. Inquiries are being concentrated initially on those cases offering the best prospects of a useful investigation.

Mr. Winnick : I hope that the 1991 Act will not be a dead letter and that those who should be prosecuted according to the rule of law will be so prosecuted. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that under no circumstances will Ministers sign immunity certificates in such cases? Bearing in mind recent events, such an assurance is much needed.

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The Attorney-General : I can certainly confirm that if and when the police come forward with a case to be considered by the Director of Public Prosecutions and myself, prosecution decisions will be undertaken precisely in accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors and normal standards.

As for the hon. Gentleman's second point, he repeats a misunderstanding that has fairly wide currency--that to claim public interest immunity in accordance with legal duty is to deny the court a document. In fact, under the system documents are put before the court by prosecuting counsel. The judge then performs a balancing exercise having, if he considers it appropriate--as he normally would in a criminal case--seen the documents himself.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Drought, Africa

36. Mr. Kirkwood : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he expects to visit the drought-affected areas of the African continent in the next six months ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Douglas Hurd) : My right hon. and noble Friend the Minister for Overseas Development hopes to visit drought-affected areas of Africa again in the new year. She did so last September. We are wholeheartedly exerting ourselves to help the victims of drought and other disasters in Africa.

Mr. Kirkwood : Does not the Secretary of State agree that the 100 mecu currently languishing in Community development budgets should be urgently released? Will he bring his influence to bear at the EC Development Council meeting later this week, to ensure that money is spent on establishing a special plan for African recovery? Surely there is something seriously wrong with the system that allows money to languish when thousands are starving in Africa.

Mr. Hurd : I will certainly try to speed things up. This year, Britain has committed £150 million in humanitarian help to Africa, including £63 million to drought-affected areas. A great deal is being done to help.

Mr. Jacques Arnold : Does not our noble Friend Lady Chalker enjoy a high reputation because of all the work that she is doing to improve our relations with Africa, and is not this country already doing a considerable amount to aid Africa--not least in the important matter of water extraction and the water industry throughout Africa, which is part of the base of the problem?

Mr. Hurd : That is certainly true. I am glad that--contrary to dire predictions from Opposition Members--we have been able to maintain our aid programme in the public spending review. I think that, in the circumstances, most people would regard ours as a very reputable record.

Child Labour

37. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it the policy of the Overseas Development Administration to use

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the aid budget to seek to eliminate the employment of children in dangerous or unhealthy conditions in recipient countries.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd) : It is the policy of thOverseas Development Administration to help those children who are forced, through poverty, to work in dangerous and unhealthy conditions.

Mr. Bayley : Is the Minister aware that an increase in the volume of exports of Colombian coal is forcing more and more people in Colombia to buy from the domestic market serviced by small mines? According to a recent statement by the Anti-Slavery Society for the Protection of Human Rights, 900 of those small mines employ children, some as young as five years old.

Does the Minister accept that the Government's policy of electricity privatisation has led to the purchase of considerable amounts of Colombian coal by PowerGen and National Power, and that compulsory competitive tendering has forced local authorities to do the same? Will he make it his policy to use the development budget to support development projects that will eliminate the use of child labour in Colombia?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : We have been informed by Carbocol, the Colombian coal company, that no coal exported to Britain from Colombia is produced through the use of child labour. If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence of the contrary, I shall of course want it to be considered very carefully.

It is very much the Government's policy to use ODA resources to help with the awkward problem of child labour throughout the world. Children are sent to work because of the great poverty that exists throughout the world. All our projects take cognisance of that, and try to improve living standards so that child labour is no longer used.

Procurement Policy

38. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of overseas aid is used for the procurement overseas of British goods and services.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The proportion of bilateral aid commitments tied to British goods and services was 76 per cent. in 1989, 79 per cent. in 1990 and 74 per cent. in 1991.

Mr. Fabricant : Do British manufacturers derive any export benefit from multilateral aid--aid given through the European Commission or, indeed, through agencies of the United Nations?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Certainly. I have just given the overall percentage for bilateral aid ; a total of £934 million helped British industry in 1991. We reckon that, over the seven years between 1982 and 1989, every £1 contributed to multilateral aid produced £1.40 for British goods and services.

Aid Programme

39. Mr. Jon Owen Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the level of the overseas aid programme for the next two years.

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Mr. Hurd : As announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his autumn statement, the aid programme for developing countries is planned to rise in 1993-94 to £1,900 million, compared with £1,835 million this year, and then to be maintained at that level in 1994-95.

Mr. Jones : Is the Foreign Secretary aware that today more than 3, 000 Somalis are stranded, starving, in a ship in the Red sea? That is a matter of deep personal concern to my constituents in Cardiff who have relatives in Somalia. Is not the right hon. Gentleman ashamed that, on this day, we have frozen our overseas aid for the next two years, effectively saving £75 million next year and £150 million the year after, and cutting our aid budget by 12 per cent. over those two years?

Mr. Hurd : I am told that the refugees to whom the hon. Gentleman refers have now reached Yemen. Our aid to Somalia this year has been substantial--£27 million sterling. As for the total figures, I have received, as no doubt the hon. Gentleman received, many letters protesting against the Government's intention to cut aid by 15 per cent. I do not know where that story came from. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does. However, it has been completely falsified by events. They show a rise, in cash terms, in aid to developing countries this year ; a steady figure, in cash terms, in the remaining two years ; and, as regards our total external assistance, including eastern Europe, a rise in cash and in real terms, throughout the three years. In the circumstances, that is a very satisfactory outcome.

Mr. Wells : Is it not true that the increase in the aid budget, which I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing, clearly helps the poorest countries, and the

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poorest people in those countries? However, because it is tied to the acquisition of British goods and services and to the employment of British people, does it not help this country out of recession, as well?

Mr. Hurd : Yes, it does have that effect. Although much of our aid is untied, British industry benefits greatly as a result. It is widely felt in the House, even on partisan occasions, that the quality of British aid is high and that it is well targeted. I am delighted that the total agreed in the autumn statement is, in the circumstances, a good one.

Mr. Meacher : Contrary to what the Foreign Secretary said, does he not acknowledge that to freeze the aid budget for two years after 1993 will cut £75 million off aid programmes that had been planned in the first year, and £150 million in the second year, and that that represents altogether about 12 per cent. of the whole aid budget for this year-- £225 million? Is the Foreign Secretary aware that the two-year freeze, plus the 15 per cent. devaluation after black Wednesday, will cut the value of British aid abroad over the next three years by no less than a quarter? Is he also aware that the latest cuts represent yet another prime ministerial U-turn and broken promise? At Rio, the Prime Minister promised that he would increase British aid, but it is being frozen and reduced. If he is still Prime Minister at the end of this week, should he not be hanging his head in shame when the European Community Development Council meets?

Mr. Hurd : The hon. Gentleman has juggled rather desperately with figures which even he must admit are a good deal better than he probably expected. As regards his one substantial point, the effect on the exchange rate, he will know that a very large proportion of our aid is calculated and paid for in sterling.

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