| Previous Section | Home Page |
Column 956
("(6C) The Ministers shall by order make provision as to the principles on which the time which vessels may spend at sea is to be arrived at for the purposes of any condition included in a licence by virtue of subsection (6)(c) above.")Read a Second time.
Mr. Kirkwood : I beg to move, as an amendment to the Lords amendment, amendment (a), in line 2, after provision' insert implementing any European Community agreement'.
Madam Speaker : With this it will be convenient to discuss amendments (d), (b) and (c) to the Lords amendment, and Lords amendments Nos. 5, 6, 12 and 16.
Mr. Kirkwood : In our previous debate, we dealt with equivalence. Amendments (a) and (b) were designed to support our earlier arguments, and there is no purpose in rehearsing them. I detect that the Minister is slightly punch drunk, as I suggested earlier. He has been sitting on the Front Bench for a good many hours without food, water or respite of any kind. If he can find it in his largesse to take up the question of equivalence, I shall be grateful. It is an extremely important issue.
As the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) said during our debate on the first amendment, it is important that, when orders are laid that flow as a consequence of the Bill's enactment, the House should treat them extremely seriously. There is usually a
one-and-a-half-hour debate in circumstances, such as tonight, when right hon. and hon. Members want to get home to their beds, which is understandable. We should have a guarantee, however, that the procedure will be affirmative rather than negative. The Minister may say that amendment (c) will not achieve that objective, but it is my best stab at requiring the Government to bring before the House orders that flow from the Bill to be considered under the affirmative procedure.
It must be borne in mind that the Bill will give unfettered powers to the Government for 1993 and for all time. These draconian powers should be exercised only if orders are brought before the House, when changes are sought to be made, under the affirmative procedure. I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment on that basis. I hope also that he will say a wee bit more about the substance of it than he did when dealing with the previous group.
Mr. Austin Mitchell : It would be wrong to let these matters pass so that we might the earlier return home to bed. It is a bad Bill, and the principle that is set out in the amendment is a good and important one. The amendment is far better than amendment No. 1. I think that we should divide the House also on amendment No. 2. It is more sensible than amendment No. 1 and it goes straight to the point.
It is impossible and wrong to impose on the British fishing industry restrictions on its ability to go to sea when those restrictions are not equally imposed on competing fishing industries--competing for the same stocks in the same grounds in the North sea--with which it has to deal. There should be a limitation on days at sea only when the industries of other European countries face a similar limitation.
The Minister proposes to go ahead because of his failure to implement a decommissioning scheme early enough to reduce the British effort to the levels dictated by the multi-annual guidance programme. That is his fault
Column 957
and responsibility. It would be far better if he admitted that and said that the measure would be introduced, if necessary, in the interest of conservation ony if a similar restriction were to be placed on other European countries. The bitterness and antagonism of British fishermen when tied up and seeing grounds still fished by competitors unrestrained and unrestricted would be unacceptable. Amendment (d) sets out one of the best arguments that we deployed in Committee, which is that the Bill is not a conservation measure. Instead, it will encourage vessels to put to sea to catch as much fish as they can during the time that they are allowed to be at sea. It would be far better to encourage the use of better gear, larger meshes and square mesh panels-- to insist on gear options--as an alternative to preventing vessels from going to sea. We must encourage vessels to catch bigger and more marketable fish rather than catching massive quantities of small fish. That would be best achieved by a gear option.The Minister could make better use of his sanction on days at sea by insisting that vessels employ better gear and then giving exemptions from the days-at-sea limitation to those that comply. That is the sensible way to deal with the problem ; it is the carrot-and-stick technique. However, that can be achieved only if the amendment is accepted.
I hope that the Minister will clarify what is promising to be a most interesting argument about exactly what assurances were given to Conservative Members of Parliament to get them to support the Bill the last time that it was before the House. The hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) said that he was assured that the Bill would not be implemented until equivalent measures were introduced in the other member states--as the amendment would achieve.
On Third Reading, the Minister said :
"We should not introduce such a resolution unless we are satisfied that member states which share our fishery stocks are taking effective steps".-- [ Official Report, 14 July 1992 ; Vol. 211, c. 1027.]
He also gave the private assurance to Conservative Members that he would not take action until he was convinced that our European partners were taking steps as stringent as Britain's to ensure that they abided by the quotas.
Those are three different matters. It is clear that Conservative Members wanted to be persuaded, encouraged or tricked into voting for the Bill. It is also clear that there is a strange ambivalence that will leave a curious smell about the Bill unless we are told exactly what was said and why that assurance has not been incorporated in the Bill.
Mr. Salmond : When I suggested during our previous debate parliamentary chicanery, it was obvious from the Minister's demeanour that he was not too pleased. As the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) said, the House is entitled to know how the word "equivalent" came to be translated into the word "effective". They mean two different things, as we now know.
The Minister could defend himself by making the point that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby made very well--that people can be fooled only if they want to be fooled. Those of us who did not want to be fooled and who wanted an assurance that equivalent steps would have to be taken
Column 958
in every other member state are entitled to know what assurances were given by whom to whom. In other words, what did they know, and when did they know it?I sincerely hope that the Minister will answer that question rather than try to sweep it aside and without discussing what every hon. Member from every fishing constituency is entitled to know.
Mr. Maclennan : The Lords amendments, which amendments (a), (b) and (c) would amend, are a move in the right direction. However, they could provide an opportunity for the Government to make proposals for decommissioning without actually implementing them. In the absence of any action on decommissioning, the Government could simply make orders that would affect time at sea. The two matters have to be linked, because it is the linkage that has bought off some of the opposition.
Amendment (a) on equivalence relates to the previous debate, so we do not need to linger long on it. It goes to the heart of the dispute between the fishing industry and the Government, which led to the demonstration in Lochinver. It is of immense concern to the fishermen in my contituency that, if the Bill is not amended, the Government could introduce a restriction on days at sea and require consecutive days to be spent in port, at the Government's behest.
Similar provisions do not apply to boats from other EC countries. At least a third of the Scottish fleet could be destroyed, and it would be unconscionable if measures comparable to those in force were perpetuated beyond this calendar year without the House having a direct say on what is being done.
Amendment (c) would provide that a debate takes place, so that the House could consider whether the Government had discharged their obligations to give due consideration to a scheme of decommissioning and whether, in the circumstances of the stocks available, it made sense to introduce a scheme to limit effort. Without amendments (a) and (c), the fishing industry will be left in a parlous predicament, unprotected and unprotectable by the House.
11.30 pm
Mr. Nick Ainger (Pembroke) : I support the amendments tabled by Liberal Democrat Members but wish to speak to amendment (d), which stands in the names of my hon. Friends.
In our earlier debate, it was revealed that the Irish capacity to fish, and therefore presumably their total allowable catch, will increase. My constituents who fish out of Milford Haven will experience a significant reduction. The Minister will tell us that next year they will face the problem of tying up while still trying to earn a living with a reduced TAC.
There are only 60 miles between my constituency and the coast of Ireland. What do I tell my constituents whose boats will have to be tied up when their Irish colleagues are fishing waters that my constituents have fished for decades?
It is unacceptable that, despite having had the presidency of the Fisheries Committee for six months, the Minister cannot give an assurance that our partners in Europe have at least agreed in principle to discuss the days-at -sea limits. He has not been able to offer that assurance, because they know that from a conservation point of view the proposal is a load of rubbish. It is only
Column 959
a sop to enable the Government to introduce a limited decommissioning scheme. If it could be such a wonderful success, why are our partners not adopting it, and why has it not been proposed before?Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) : I want to deal with a problem that arises from the days-at-sea idea. Before doing so, I must say that the whole idea is viewed by fishermen in my constituency as quite absurd and as ineffective a conservation measure as set-aside, but without the compensation. It has all the disadvantages of encouraging people to make the maximum productive use of the time--or, by analogy, the land available to them while affording no compensation to those who are affected. It is not a sensible conservation measure, so I support the continued pursuit of the gear option, to which the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) referred and to which I sought to refer in the earlier debate. It is ludicrous that we should devote so much time, legislative attention and civil service activity to unselective so-called conservation measures that do not have the right effect and do not ensure that the fishing effort concentrates on mature fish and avoids harming future stocks.
The Minister is well aware of the effects of the proposals on people who will in future be denied their traditional right to fish for salmon and who, under present plans, will not be allowed to have their days-at-sea for salmon fishery counted towards a white fishery in the future even though they are precluded from continuing their salmon fishery. That applies especially to the sons of existing fishermen who, thus far, have had every reason to expect that, under the law, they would be granted licences to continue their salmon fishery. They now see that salmon fishery being phased out. They will be driven to another fishery, not through choice but because of the effects of a Government decision with which I and they disagree profoundly.
The Minister of State recently listened to my representations on that subject at a meeting in the presence of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Both Ministers led me into believing that they were making strenuous efforts to devise a scheme under which the problems of the salmon fishermen could be recognised. It is the Minister's jobs to ensure that the officials in their Ministry work out a scheme. Whatever bureaucratic obstacles are placed on the Minister's desks, it is their job to say what must be done in the interests of common justice. If people have been deprived of a fishery because of a decision that the fishery would be better managed if it were conducted without their participation, and those people then have to turn to the white fishery, they are in effect tied up because they do not have an entitlement of days from the base year of 1991. I do not know whether the Minister can deal with that issue tonight, but I want an assurance that he will find a solution.
Mr. Morley : I want to speak to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friends which refers specifically to the gear option. On Report, the Minister gave assurances that the conservation measures in the Bill would be equivalent to European measures. If that is so, why is a gear option available in European Community proposals on effort controls, which might involve days in port, whereas no such option is available in the Bill?
Mr. Curry : I am certainly not punch drunk, but nor am I quite as fresh as I was this morning. Some of my
Column 960
colleagues have been with me all day since we started in a Committee which was scrutinising bananas, which is more attractive even than the problem of Scottish haddock.What did I promise? During the passage of the Bill, I made it absolutely clear that the criteria were effective measures to meet MAGP targets. I did not whisper that or scratch it on a piece of paper behind the Box. Everyone who subsequently voted heard those words clearly. The only criteria by which we can judge are the MAGP targets. We have agreed the targets and a mechanism to achieve them. The Commission has undertaken to produce annual reports on the implemention of the targets.
There will, of course, be an order to implement the initial freeze, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) clearly stated. In line with all the rules in the Bill, the negative resolution will be employed. [Interruption.] We have accepted the case for an affirmative resolution with respect to any subsequent reduction to days-at-sea or extension of the under-10 m fleet. That is entirely in line with the promises that I gave. In other respects, they are in the mainstream of fisheries legislation.
In response to the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), the difference between the gear option and that included in the Bill is that the Commission's measure would affect 700 or 800 vessels. We do not intend to accept it, but that is what it would do. One can control that to some extent, although the hon. Gentleman must admit that there have been difficulties with previous gear options. The measure will affect 4,000 vessels ; clearly, to try to monitor and sustain a gear option over so many vessels is a different matter. However, technical conservation is an important element in our fisheries policy. That is precisely why I shall hold a forum on it with the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations in the new year.
I acknowledge the question asked by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed (Mr. Beith) about the salmon fishery. We are working hard and we shall try to find a solution, because that matter is close to my heart.
Mr. Salmond : The Minister cites the Official Report, and we can all read that--but we would like to know what assurances were given elsewhere, by whom, to whom. All hon. Members are entitled to know whether assurances were given about equivalent measures in any other place by any other Minister, and to whom.
Mr. Curry : The pledge that was given was given from the Dispatch Box, on the record, with all hon. Members present to listen to it, all fully aware of what the promise would be. That is what I promised, and that is what has been put into the Bill.
I commend to the House the amendment passed in another place, but not the amendments tabled to it.
Question put and negatived.
Lords amendment agreed to.
Lords amendment : No. 3, in page 1, line 16, at end insert ("(6D) Before considering what action to take under subsection (6C) above, the Ministers shall first give due consideration to a scheme of decommissioning in order to achieve a significant reduction in the capacity of the fishing fleet." ")
Read a Second time.
Mr. Wallace : I beg to move, as an amendment to the Lords amendment, amendment (a), in line 3, leave out
Column 961
first give due consideration to'and insert implement'.
Madam Deputy Speaker : With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendments (b) and (c) to the Lords amendment.
Mr. Wallace : It will be obvious that there is a world of difference between merely giving consideration to something and implementing it--in this case, a decommissioning scheme. In many respects, my amendment goes to the heart of the issue underlying the Bill. I do not wish to rehearse all the arguments again. We have heard them on Second Reading, in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading. We have also had a fair debate on the issue earlier today. We should not allow the amendment to be passed without again putting on the record the outrage that many fishermen feel at the compulsory tie-ups that the Bill will impose upon them. In our earlier debate, the Minister took exception when I contrasted what is happening to fishermen with what is happening to shop owners. Often, people engaged in the fishing industry have laid out considerable capital to buy their boats and equipment. If the Bill is enacted as it stands, they will not be allowed to earn a return on that capital for a given number of days in the year. That is a serious restriction to place on anyone's business. That is why the suggestion has caused such outrage and attracted such opposition.
Many of us have argued over the years that if the Government are serious about reducing capacity so that the capacity of our fleet is more in line with the fishing opportunities available, the best way of achieving that is by implementing a decommissioning scheme. That case has often been argued in the House, and the House of Lords Select Committee found that the scheme that the Government suggested in February was too little too late.
I believe that it is thanks to Lord Radnor that their Lordships accepted the amendment, so that the Government's mind would be concentrated on decommissioning and they would be obliged to consider that idea first before imposing days-at-sea restrictions. We are grateful to the noble Lord for that, and to their Lordships for supporting him.
However, when on Third Reading in another place the Government said that they would not oppose the amendment, many of us were immediately suspicious that they did so because the Minister could simply say, "I have given due consideration to the idea, but I shall not do much about it. I shall go ahead and introduce the order to impose days-at-sea". The Minister's smile is a giveaway. Clearly, that was the Government's intention. No doubt, if we could find proof that they had never given the matter any consideration, the Minister would be liable to answer a case for judicial review, but finding proof would be well-nigh impossible. That is why we believe that the provision should be tightened. We must implement a scheme of decommissioning.
Let me express considerable sympathy with and support for the other amendments in the group, tabled by the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), which would provide for an effective decommissioning scheme involving consultation with fishermen's associations. The hon. Gentleman shied away when asked
Column 962
how much decommissioning would cost, however. The House of Lords Select Committee report suggests that it would cost four or five times the amount that the Government have placed on the table. During the general election campaign, the Liberal Democrats cited a figure of £100 million. It is a matter for regret that the new designer Labour party always seems afraid to put figures on its proposals. No doubt the electorate judges it accordingly.11.45 pm
Mr. Morley : Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that, at this stage and given the flux in the fishing industry, it is not up to us to put a figure on the scheme? I can assure him that, when the time comes for the electorate to make its choice democratically, we will give it a properly detailed and costed fishing policy for the fishing ports.
Mr. Wallace : I heard what the hon. Gentleman said. I shall be happy to give way to him again if he will tell the House how much the Labour party suggested a decommissioning policy would cost at the last general election, when the electorate had precisely that choice. I do not recall any figure ever having come from the Labour party. The hon. Gentleman is under an obligation to give a ball-park figure. It is not a question of our waiting for the next election for an effective decommissioning scheme to be brought into being ; we are trying to influence the Government today. Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that there is to be no decommissioning of any value or size until a Labour Government are returned to power? Heaven help the fishing industry if it has to wait that long. We are all under an obligation to try to persuade the Minister to cite a realistic figure for decommissioning. We believe that the £25 million, welcome though it is, is nowhere near enough to have the necessary effect. Similarly, the Minister is under an obligation to tell the House how much of that £25 million will come from the European Community. Ministers have never told us how much would be returned to the Government through taxation of the sums paid to fishermen in decommissioning payments. We need that information if we are to get a proper measure of what the net effect would be. The Government have readily called into aid the amount that we would have to contribute under the Fontainebleau agreement, but they have never said how much they would recover in taxation.
The arguments for decommissioning have been advanced on many occasions and do not need to be laboured. In reply to the debate on the previous group of amendments, the Minister admitted that the purpose of the Bill was not conservation--as has been said in the past, and as Earl Howe said in the other place last week--but a way of reaching Britain's MAGP targets. We have already gone into that this evening.
We do not believe that an unreasonable limitation on people's ability to prosecute their livelihood is the proper way forward. A far better and more effective way forward is to reduce fishing capacity through a decommissioning scheme. This important amendment would oblige the Government to do that, rather than saying that they will do some decommissioning with the effort limitation string attached. We should be approaching the problem the other way round and putting decommissioning first.
Mr. Austin Mitchell : The amendment goes to the nub of the argument. If we had had a proper decommissioning
Column 963
scheme three, four or five years ago, we would not now be having to pass the Bill. No other country in Europe has the limitation on days at sea that the Government seek to impose. Other countries are all much closer to their MAGP targets than we are. They are in that position because they have had decommissioning schemes that have been so effective in some cases--in the French case, for example--that they have been able to start building new vessels to improve the efficiency of their fleets.If we had a decommissioning scheme, we would not need the Bill. Instead of enforcing on the industry the consequences of their folly after their slowness in introducing a scheme, the Government should introduce something much more substantial than the proposed £25 million scheme.
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) made great play about the Labour party's proposal without telling us what the Liberal party was proposing in terms of a decommissioning scheme. I am sure that he would not want us to outbid the radical, daring nature of the House of Lords which said that the scheme should be four times bigger than the proposal and described it as too little too late.
The decommissioning scheme needs to be at least four times as big as the present scheme. If the Government hope to achieve the rundown in effort estimated in their latest press release, they will be sadly disappointed with a scheme as mean as this. The scheme will have to be substantially increased. We will then need less of a limitation on the number of days that vessels can put to sea.
Mr. Salmond : I make no apologies for detaining the House on these matters. Indeed, I believe that the House should be detained on matters of such importance.
I fully endorse the comments of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace). The amendment is not just right in principle ; it is right technically. It hits the nail right on the head in respect of decommissioning.
I do not need to rehearse the arguments that have already been made about decommissioning, but there are some points of considerable note. First, after some agonising, the Government decided last week to accept the amendment made in the other place that due consideration would have to be given to a decommissioning scheme. Presumably when the other place passed the amendment which the Government opposed there, their Lordships must have thought that something important was at stake. There was an argument, the Government opposed it, and the amendment was carried. It must have been felt that something significant was being debated and that something important was at stake in respect of the amendment. When I was interviewed about the Government's decision not to oppose the Lords amendment, I naturally assumed that that could constitute a victory in the legislation, but the Ministry immediately issued a briefing to the effect that nothing had really changed. Due consideration could be given to decommissioning, but that would not matter because after it had been duly considered, everthing would be just as before.
One reason why the fishing industry has been so antagonised by the Minister's performance that even Conservative members of Grampian regional council are calling for his dismissal is the attitude that it does not matter what arguments are deployed or what principles are carried, everything can sail on regardless.
Column 964
There is a view in the fishing industry at the moment that the Minister is making such a cod of fishing policy because he wants everything to collapse in ruins so that his pet scheme of individual transferable quotas can take sway and rescue the industry. The Minister must explain why the Lords amendment is not being treated seriously. Is it really the case, as the Ministry briefing stated, that due consideration will be given and then the whole idea will be dismissed?The principle of subsidiarity is contained in the review of the common fisheries policy and the Government are anxious to endorse that principle at the Edinburgh summit later this week. We must consider how that principle applies to decommissioning. It is well known, and was officially admitted in Standing Committee a few weeks ago, that for several years there was a serious difference of opinion between the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland was in favour of a decommissioning scheme on its own merits to reduce capacity so as to meet the problem of over-capacity in the industry. That argument was blocked by the Minister of State and his superior at the Ministry. There was a collision and, after wasted years when the money for restructuring went to every other Community fleet in Europe, we have this inadequate scheme which is contingent on the passage of an unacceptable piece of legislation. Will the Government examine the principle of subsidiarity, relative to a decommissioning scheme, and allow the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland to introduce what I understand it has wanted to introduce for a number of years--a proper and adequately funded decommissioning scheme to be considered on its merits, not made contingent as part of an unacceptable Bill?
Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton) : I wish to speak to amendments (b) and (c) tabled by my hon. Friends about the implementation of an effective decommissioning scheme. We consider those amendments to be extremely important.
When the matter was discussed in another place on 24 November, many points were made by noble Lords and by Earl Howe. Since then, it has been said that the Government's interpretation of the matter has been nothing but cynical. I have read the debate which took place on 24 November. Earl Howe said :
"The nub of the matter is that noble Lords want a larger decommissioning scheme, paid for by the taxpayer. We simply do not have the funds for a larger scheme and there is no prospect whatever of our getting them The £25 million that was set aside for a decommissioning scheme has been safeguarded".--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 24 November 1992 ; Vol. 540, c. 930.]
In this House on 23 November, the Secretary of State for National Heritage said that he was committed to providing £60 million for Windsor Castle. The Friday before, the Government had no idea what would happen, but three days later they came up with £60 million. Is it not the case that the many thousands of jobs in the fishing communities which are threatened could be treated with the same equality by the Government? By not proposing any action, the Government are simply reinforcing the cynical interpretation that people have put on the matter.
There is a strength of feeling on the matter of decommissioning, not only among noble Lords in another
Column 965
place. That feeling is shown by the marches and the rallies by fishermen which have taken place in Scotland, whether in Aberdeen or in Edinburgh this Friday. Undoubtedly, there will be a strong rally by the fishermen. As hon. Members have made clear today, there is a depth of feeling and antagonism in the fishing community against the Government.Today, we still have the siege at Lochinver, where 20 Scottish fishing boats have maintained a blockade against a French trawler. The French agent in Lochinver said that he has sympathy with the Scottish fishermen because what is happening now to many of his friends could happen to him and his colleagues next year. The matter is a political comment and a strategy is required to do something about it.
Mention has been made of the Lords debate. On 24 November, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy made the point that in the context of the problem which the amendment seeks to address the £25 million was inadequate. The problem is that the £25 milliion is not enough. She said :
"A scheme so minuscule that it will reduce the capacity of the fishing fleet only by up to 5 per cent. will, as I see it, be nothing but a waste of money. Therefore, it really is imperative that, if £25 million- worth of taxpayers' money is not to be wasted, a rather more extensive scheme is introduced."--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 24 November 1992 ; Vol. 540, c. 923.]
Lord Gallacher said :
"It is the inadequacy of that sum of money in the context of the problem which the amendment seeks to address."
He said that it was the nub of the problem.
We have said that the Government should consult with the various fishing bodies and representatives. We have received many letters from people in the fishing communities about the matter. Fishing representatives are seething at the Government's lack of action. The Government should liaise with the different fishing bodies so that some common sense can get through. The depth of feeling and the magnitude of the problem which the bodies face comes home to them. I received a letter even today just before the debate from a fishing family in Eyemouth. It said :
"The Government are taking away a fisherman's basic right to go to sea and earn an honest living. It is also a unilateral Bill which will unfairly discriminate against UK fishermen."
It said that the Bill was fundamentally flawed and had the potential to devastate the industry and fishing families.
12 midnight
A leader in The Scotsman today said :
"All that the Government are doing is paving the road to hell." It said that the fishermen and the fish processors should get together with the Government, as our amendment suggests, to work out some plan. The fishermen and fish processors have a responsibility. In our discussions they have said that they will accept a scheme. They realise that there are problems ahead, but the Government should listen and talk to them. If the Government are not cynical in their approach, they should take the words of Earl Howe on 24 November seriously into consideration. They make interesting reading. He said in response to Lord Gallagher that he could not accept the amendment. He realised that it was an innocuous form of words. He continued :
Column 966
"The form of words may be innocuous, but the import of the amendment, as we have debated it, is not. I would not wish it to be said that the Government had accepted an amendment other than in good faith."--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 24 November 1992 ; Vol. 540, c. 931-32.]If Earl Howe could say that he did not want to accept an amendment other than in good faith, is it not incumbent on the Government to show that they have good faith and therefore to accept the import of the amendment and do something about the problem in the fishing industry, namely, the need for a more imaginative and more expansive decommissioning scheme ?
Mr. Curry : I am flattered to be accused of so many conspiracies simultaneously. That was the reason why I was smiling at the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. Let us put the matter right. The amendment which Lord Radnor moved in the Lords, to which Earl Howe objected, would have obliged us to consider decommissioning every time an individual licence was issued or any change was made to a licence. [ Hon. Members :-- "No."] That is precisely what the amendment did. We therefore consulted Lord Radnor. We gave him some assistance and he tabled an amendment on Third Reading which effectively restored the amendment to what he had originally wanted. That is the amendment which the Government were subsequently able to accept. That explains the chain of events.
The amendments tabled by the Opposition seek to divorce decommissioning and effort control. As I have said to the House repeatedly, they are linked and they must remain linked. Also, the Opposition seek to make us spend a great deal more money on decommissioning. The £25 million was negotiated not without some difficulty. I see one of the Treasury team on the Front Bench and I have no doubt that he will nod in agreement when I say that I cannot promise to come back with more money for decommissioning schemes. I am not prepared to promise from the Dispatch Box what I cannot deliver.
We are consulting the industry on decommissioning. It was part of the consultation document. There are important decisions to be made, which we wish to take with industry. The MAGP targets are not invented out of thin air or for amusement. They are conservation targets. They are set to address the problems of effort and capacity in the European Community fleet. Therefore, I am unable to accept the amendments and I commend the Lords amendment.
Question put : That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made :--
The House divided : Ayes 79, Noes 168.
Division No. 101] [12.3 am
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Alton, David
Barnes, Harry
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Cann, Jamie
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)
Clelland, David
Connarty, Michael
Cryer, Bob
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Davidson, Ian
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Dixon, Don
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Foster, Derek (B'p Auckland)
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Maria
Godman, Dr Norman A.
Godsiff, Roger
Graham, Thomas
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
| Next Section
| Home Page |