House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Dec 1992

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There is no point in landing fish for it to be used merely as fish-meal. The fish which is landed must be wanted. All parties in the fishing industry must get together to maximise the economic value of the increased numbers of haddock. No sector of the industry will be forgiven if the fish which is landed in the first part of the year is used for fish-meal while the fishery is still closing early this time next year.

The lack of the right fish cannot be blamed on the Government or the European Community. We cannot promise imaginary fish. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) is wholly irresponsible and reckless. He stomps around the north-east of Scotland, promising fish which are not there. He raises hopes and expectations, safe in the knowledge that he will never have to deliver his promises and boasts.

Mr. Salmond rose--

Mr. Robertson : Before I give way, the hon. Gentleman should remember--although it may be hard for him to accept--that it was someone far greater than him who was the last man to perform miracles with fish.

Mr. Salmond : I have not heard that comparison for a while. If the hon. Gentleman can dispense with the insults, he seems to be saying that he is supported by a substantial section of the fishing community in Scotland. Will he name three people in the fishing community who support his current position?

Mr. Robertson : The hon. Gentleman merely proves that, although we represent seats in the same part of the country, we live in different worlds.

It is perfectly clear that there is too much catching capacity--too many fishermen chasing too few fish. I welcome the Government's conversion to a decommissioning scheme, long championed by the Under-Secretary of State. I accept that it is a limited scheme, but it is a start and it will help. Any scheme which limits catching capacity is a step in the right direction. I regret the time that it has taken for the Government to get this far, especially in the light of the help given to other industries to help them to retract and to face the market--I am thinking in particular of farmers and set-aside.

However, any scheme is better late than never. The fishing industry must realise that if there is too much capacity it is not enough merely to cut that capacity ; one also has to control the catching capacity of that which is left. I fear, and regret, that the only way to do that is to limit the number of days the catchers are at sea. Another central problem that the Government and the industry must tackle is the fact that, with the overall increase in the number of fish, the number of fish just below the minimum landing size will increase. More will be discarded and wasted. The more that I talk to people involved, the clearer it becomes that, with increased engine power and bigger net configurations, whatever the size of the diamond mesh, it closes under pressure and the cod end becomes an impenetrable sheath for undersized fish. I urge my hon. Friend to consider, as a matter of urgency, making square mesh panels mandatory. The industry would welcome that, and I say to fishermen that if, for whatever reason, the Government will not take the step, the industry itself should take it and make square mesh compulsory. That would be in everyone's interests ; it

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would reduce the number of discards and let small fish escape to be caught again another day when they are of a size to be landed. As always, the industry faces great challenges and uncertainties, with the different sectors looking for different solutions to the same basic common problems. Despite all the criticism, I genuinely and earnestly believe that the Government should be supported. Decommissioning will reduce the catching capacity, and limiting the days at sea will limit the time during which the remaining capacity is in the water. If limitations in the days at sea still allow fishermen to catch their quota--that is the crucial factor--they must accept it as a sensible and appropriate way forward. Preservation of fish stocks is necessary not merely to get us through next week, next month or next year, but for generations to come.

5.1 pm

Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North) : I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) to the Dispatch Box as the Labour party's principal spokesman on agriculture, fisheries and food. He has a background in the subject, and some experience--if my memory serves me correctly, he has ministerial experience--and we welcome him back. As his speech tonight has shown, he has the heart of the industry in mind.

I am happy that the Under-Secretary's opening speech was delivered calmly and rationally, because sometimes we have heard hectoring and hostile opening speeches. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) did not follow his hon. Friend's example.

We are discussing mid-term review of the common fisheries policy, and it is worth recalling the CFP's original general aims. The CFP was designed to achieve stability for all sectors of the industry, and for the consumer. The consumer is often left out of our discussions, yet in some senses the consumer is the most important factor. The industry exists to serve the consumer and to provide a good-quality high-protein food at reasonable prices. We want stability for the processors, who are a vital link in the food chain, and for the catching side of the industry. As the catchers are the primary source of supply, at the start of the chain, it could be argued that they are the most important part of the industry. Encompassing everything was the need to conserve stocks, based on scientific evidence. We have seen the stocks becoming depleted, the decreasing age profile of the fish and their decreasing quality. Had the CFP come anywhere near achieving any, let alone all, of those objectives, we could have considered it a success ; instead, we have had crisis management from year to year. The industry has run into disastrous problems, which have multiplied as each year has passed. We do not seem to reach anything like a long-term solution. Many people in the industry now question the quality and accuracy of the scientific advice on which the total allowable catch is based. To the layman, the annual numbers game seems based more on ad hoccery than on logical examination. How can the scientists account for the large differences in the total allowable catches from one year to the next? The Minister has confirmed that the TAC proposed for haddock in the North sea is 130,000 tonnes, compared with 60,000 tonnes last year. That is twice as

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much for next year as for this year--and that is not the first time that there have been such wild fluctuations. The TAC was doubled one year, then halved the year after. I cannot understand how the numbers can change so much from year to year.

Furthermore, we are concerned with more than a simple matter of numbers. The quality of fish has much improved. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, South referred to the puny size of the fish. Sadly, like him, I have been worried over the past few months by the size of some of the haddock on the quayside. They must have been stretched to the limit to bring them above the minimum size. I discussed that question this morning not only with representatives of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation but with people who go to sea. Not only are there more fish of higher quality, but the haddock has been described as bonnie fish. For the benefit of Hansard, I shall spell that out--I mean "bonnie", not "bony" fish. There is clear evidence that the number and quality of the stocks are increasing. That is to be welcomed.

That brings me to the difficulties now facing the North sea fishermen. We all know that the quota for North sea haddock was extinguished at the end of October. Although it may be too late, we must remember that the industry asked to borrow 15 per cent. of next year's quota, to allow fishing to continue until the end of the year. That would help the catching side and the processors, who depend on supply to remain in business.

I have said outside the House, and have no hesitation in repeating, that normally I would not countenance such a proposition. If there were no increase in the quota for next year, the problems would simply be compounded in 1993. The crisis would be reached in July and August instead of in October. Such an arrangement could not be regarded as a quick fix, or an easy response to the problems. The Government have refused even to consider the claim, and they gave the impression that they did not even try to secure an increase in the quota--although the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), sought to suggest otherwise a few days ago.

The Government excused themselves for not trying to increase the quota by saying that there was no scientific advice available. They took refuge in saying that all the talk about there being more fish in the sea was purely anecdotal. It is no consolation to fishermen to tell them that the haddock that they have thrown back over the side is anecdotal. That haddock is real fish. Throwing hundreds of tonnes of dead fish back into the sea--one does not know exactly how many--does nothing for the cause of conservation. Once the fish are caught and are dead, that is it--nothing can be done with them. There must be a better way of managing fishing and conservation. The TAC for haddock is to be doubled--although the proposals that I have seen will mean that we shall not get as big a proportion of the increase as we might have expected. Nevertheless, the scientific evidence is clear. That evidence must have been available to Ministers in October, as it is now. If it was not, Ministers should have asked the scientists.

Mr. Curry : I do not intervene in a polemic way, because I know that the hon. Gentleman takes the matter seriously. I want to make a serious comment. I am sure that he will remember that I said in the House a year ago that there was a good year class of small haddock, and that we did

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not want to hammer the young stock so that it would be destroyed. Three quarters of the haddock in the North sea at the beginning of the year are killed, mainly by fishing, by the end of the year. The hon. Gentleman himself described the very small haddock which he thought must have been stretched to reach the minimum landing size. There is more haddock, and there will be an increase in the TAC. The relative increase will come from the non-application of the Hague preference. That addresses the apparent inconsistency in the shares. Had we obtained the authorisation to bring forward quota, it would have been in small--in some cases, very small--fish, and the danger would have been that we should have been catching precisely the stock on which we depend to go into the spawning stock biomass to furnish the more marketable, better-quality fish for next year and provide longer-term, better opportunities for fishing.

I know that the hon. Gentleman and I subscribe to the same objectives. I have made that point simply to try to explain the position.

Mr. Hughes : I take the Minister's intervention in the spirit in which it was intended. It is not an easy argument. I find it difficult to believe, however, that fish that are mature enough to be caught on 1 January are so immature six or eight weeks beforehand that they cannot be caught. The issue as I see it is that the measurement of fish stocks--in terms of how much there is, the assessment of quality and the forecasting of what might be caught after 1 January--is not done on the basis of random sampling over a day or a week. The size of the TAC that is permissible based on stock size is arrived at on the basis of information that is accumulated and calculated over a longer period. Surely an estimate could have been made in October or at the beginning of November to allow us to reach a conclusion and so consider seriously the request to borrow forward.

As I said, I accept that the matter should not be taken lightly. We should not say, "The easiest thing to do to get the fishermen off their backs is to give them the 15 per cent., and the devil take the consequences." Of course it should not be done like that, but--I hope that the Minister will take my remarks in the best of spirits--there is no doubt that, among fishermen in the north-east of Scotland and elsewhere, there is a feeling that the hon. Gentleman did not really care enough to take their claim seriously. That has led to a tremendous loss of confidence in the Government and has dealt a damaging blow to the CFP.

I have seen a document--I do not claim to have read every word of it-- entitled "A Better Way Forward", which was presented to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by fishermen from the south-west. Such is the similarity between that document and the representations and information that I have received from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation that I would not have known--apart from the geographical locations--that someone else had written it. There is a remarkable consistency of view throughout the United Kingdom.

The problem is one of confidence. Whatever CFP regime comes into force in 1993 and subsequent years, no part of it will work or hang together unless the industry is confident that it will bring justice. Without that confidence, everything will fail. I am not advancing an abstract argument or engaging in an academic exercise here : that lack of confidence has practical damaging results. I cite as an example the illegal landing of fish. I do

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not know what the extent of it is. I am relying on press reports and--lest someone should wish to throw my remarks back at me--anecdotal evidence. The reports vary. Some say that the illegal landings are small and of no consequence and that we should not worry about them, while others say that masses of fish are being landed illegally. Wherever the truth lies, I unreservedly condemn all those involved in the handling of illegal fish--whether the fishermen, the buyers or the processors who knowingly take part in the practice. They do nothing but harm to the industry. They make it more difficult for us to represent the fishermen and put their case and, I believe, they damage our negotiating position in the EC.

Some seek to justify such practices on the ground that there is a lack of policing by other member states. They say that only British fishermen are sticking to the rules, that people are compelled into illegal practices only by economic necessity--the need to avoid bankruptcy--and that that frustration and anger lead to episodes such as that at Lochinver. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) said that he supported that. I do not want to break the all-party consensus, but I must say that I do not think that it is responsible to encourage fishermen to take the law into their own hands. That does no good, and certainly does not help our relations with the French. But these things happen.

United Kingdom haddock quotas have increased tremendously, but the real issue is that our share last year was such that less than 10 per cent. was left for other EC fishing countries. Fishermen are asking this stark and simple question : how, with such a small quota, can the French and whoever else still be catching at a time of year when we have exhausted a much bigger quota? They firmly believe that policing methods are not sufficient to deal with the problem. It is certainly indisputable that no other EC member state has anything like as many inspectors as us. I complain not about the number of inspectors that we have but about the fact that the number of inspectors elsewhere is deficient.

I believe in enforcement. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East said that we must ensure that enforcement is carried out with the same vigour throughout the Community. What plans does the Minister have to ensure that the number of inspectors is increased, both by individual member states and by the Commission? My hon. Friend and others have advanced the proposition that we ought seriously to consider mutual inspection, with inspectors from one nation's fisheries working alongside those from another nation in their inspection. That would do much to inspire confidence and put paid to the oft-expressed feeling that everyone cheats on quotas. Such cynicism is extremely dangerous.

We all know that the problems of the industry are deep-seated. They have been with us for too many years. Although I am optimistic by nature, I feel that those problems will persist for some time. It has been said before : too many vessels are chasing too few fish. The halcyon days of free-for-all fishing are gone for ever. There has to be management, regulation and the reduction of fishing effort and capacity. I know that that is unpalatable to many fishermen. It is hard to say to people that their livelihood will be affected, but fishermen understand the reality and they want a sensible system for the future.

The tie-up days may be part of the answer but they are not the whole answer --whether what is proposed is a

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period of 135 days or 190 days, which we have been assured will not be accepted. Whatever the figures, that will not help the industry in the absence of any compensation for the days tied up. Without compensation, we shall be getting nothing more and nothing less than decommissioning by bankruptcy. In farming circles we have a set-aside scheme whereby compensation is paid. I do not see the difference in principle between compensating farmers for setting aside their land and paying compensation in respect of fishing boats that are tied up. It is the same principle, and it ought to be considered.

Apparently the Government have set themselves entirely against any tie-up compensation scheme. At least there is some movement on a decommissioning scheme, however. They are beginning to set aside--no pun intended--the hang -ups of the past. Their earlier decommissioning scheme was a disaster. They were ripped off and had their fingers burnt. At least they now have a commitment to a decommissioning scheme, even if it is nothing like good enough. They should sit down with the industry yet again, draw from its knowledge and expertise and then find the necessary money. I cannot quantify what will be required.

The Minister intervened in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East to ask whether he endorsed the figure in the House of Commons Select Committee report of three, four or five times the money that the Government have set aside. I would not set a figure on it, but that money ought not to be the hurdle over which the Government cannot leap. We should consider the matter and find the money.

We must be sure that British fishermen are not targeted or adversely affected compared with other EC fishermen. There must be comparability of treatment. It is essential that we achieve a common fisheries policy that will stand the test of time. That is what we are all looking for. If the Minister can achieve that, he will have our support and we wish him well in his endeavours to do the best for the industry. If he comes back with a satisfactory deal, he will not find us lacking in praise for him.

If the Minister fails, he must understand that that failure will reverberate throughout the industry, and a valuable resource and whole communities that depend on fishing will be devastated. I am sure that the Minister does not want that to happen. Indeed, no hon. Member would want that to happen. We therefore hope that the Minister tries seriously to find a system that will work which is beneficial and in which there is justice for all.

In conclusion, I apologise to the Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food who is to reply to the debate. Like his colleague, I must be out of the House when the winding-up speeches are made. Therefore, I shall not be here to listen to him. However, I hope that he accepts that I do not in any way mean to be discourteous to him.

5.20 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : We hear much criticism about Britain's commitment to Europe. However, the European nations should be reminded that, if Britain had not been prepared to give her territorial fishing waters to this common policy, these nations would

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have been bereft of any fishing waters. That point should be repeated on every occasion. As a Member of the European Parliament, I am sick of listening to Frenchmen and people from Germany saying that Britain does not give proper commitment to the fishing policy, the common agricultural policy and so on. We have made a vital contribution, without which the common fishing policy would not exist.

I know that the Minister of State was a Member of the European Parliament for many years. He knows how the European Parliament, the Commission and the Council of Ministers work. He has a very solemn and heavy responsibility in respect of the issues that he will discuss in the very near future.

As the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr.Hughes) said, the same message is coming from fishermen all over the United Kingdom. There is no difference in the message of the fishermen from Northern Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland. I am concerned about three main issues : the quota levels for 1993 ; the position about sea fish conservation ; and the general review of the CAP operations. As I understand it, on 23 November 1992, EC officials in Brussels agreed three things : fishing for cod, haddock and other white fish will, from 1 January 1993, be reduced by 20 per cent. over four years ; the quota system already operating will be determined by the amount of stock, or projected amount of stock, available ; fishing for plaice and sole will be cut by 15 per cent. over the next four years.

Mr. Curry : I think that the figures to which the hon. Gentleman is referring are the targets for cutting the capacity of vessels. They are not the figures that relate to stocks. There would be a 20 per cent. cut over four years in the fleet targets for demersal vessels--that is, for white fish. There will be a 15 per cent. cut over four years for the beamers-- that is, for plaice and sole. That does not refer to the stocks. I thought that it might be helpful if I made that clear at this stage.

Rev. Ian Paisley : If the Minister had listened to me, he would have noticed that I said that the quota system already operating would be determined by the amount of stock and projected amount of stock available. The Minister should have kept that in mind. I understand that those cuts, no matter how the Minister argues them, are less than those first proposed. However, they they are more than the industry in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom can sustain. That is the point that the Minister should take on board.

There are already shortages of fish, and that pushes up prices for the consumer and puts Britain's fishermen on the dole. The quota system has restricted United Kingdom vessels from landing sufficient catch to meet national demands. Fishermen who transgress the quota face heavy fines.

Once again, Britain is at a serious disadvantage. While we are imposing the single market rules, regulations and policies strictly and with extreme efficiency, we are being penalised by other nations which are not policing the regulations. There is no doubt about that. The suggestion of the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North that the policing operations should be mixed among the nations of Europe so that we can see what they are doing would mean that we would have some confidence in a fair and level playing

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field. We hear calls for a level playing field in the Community in industry and commerce. We need a level tidal mark for the British fishing industry. I should like the Minister of State to consider the point about the Irish sea, as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland said that he would deal with it.

It seems that the quota level for whiting catch in the Irish sea is proposed to be cut by 35 per cent. Northern Ireland will get 14 per cent. of the catch. In effect, that reduces the tonnage available to the United Kingdom from the Irish sea stock to 1,400 tonnes. If those figures are correct, that is an all-time low. Those figures are unviable : they will wreck Northern Ireland's fishing industry. Who is defending Northern Ireland's position in Europe? Will a Minister from the Northern Ireland Office accompany the Minister of State to Europe to remind him that Northern Ireland fishermen have great difficulties? It is strange that the Minister of State's boss refuses to meet a deputation from the Northern Ireland fishing industry. No wonder there is great concern in Northern Ireland when the industry's voice cannot be heard.

The Northern Ireland sea fishing industry is largely dependent on the Irish sea. The Northern Ireland fleet is concentrated at the three main ports of Ardglass, Kilkeel and Portavogie. The representatives of those areas are in the House, and no doubt they will be pressing home some of the points that have been put to me. I have been told that the fleet comprises more than 260 vessels over 10 m overall length. During 1991, the value of landing of sea fish at Northern Ireland ports was down by £1.4 million. That is a terrible loss for the fishing industry in Northern Ireland. More than 2,400 people are employed in the sea fishing industry, including people employed in the fishing fleet and related ancillary sectors such as processing, wholesaling, boat building and harbour duties. As Northern Ireland has the worst level of unemployment in the United Kingdom, the Minister must be concerned that those jobs are protected. When we talk to fishermen about sea fish conservation, they say that we are talking more about the destruction of their jobs than about conserving them.

British legislation gives officials the power to tie up British vessels when they believe that stocks are low. The legislation is applied according to the strictest possible interpretation of the European Community's conservation policy. That application is extremely invidious and oppressive to Northern Ireland when proper consideration is given to the low quota and projected quota given to Northern Ireland.

After the meeting in Brussels, the Irish Fisheries Minister, Dr. Michael Woods, said that he had won special dispensation which would avoid cuts in the Irish fishing fleet. So the southern Ireland Minister can come out of a Brussels meeting and boast that he has won a special dispensation which would avoid cuts in the Irish fishing fleet. That breakthrough for the Republic of Ireland came about after years of pressure by the Republic's Government. What pressure are Her Majesty's Government putting on the European Community to protect the jobs of Northern Ireland fishermen?

Small communities in Northern Ireland such as Portavogie, Kilkeel and Ardglass depend on fishing to survive. On 20 November, Lord Arran met councillors and fishermen from Newtownards and Portagovie to listen to their complaints. Was that meeting reported to the Minister? Was he given a list of those complaints? Was he

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told that Portagovie is a major fishing port with 97 boats and a turnover of £7 million last year? Was he told that, in Portavogie, employment in the fishing industry provides about 800 jobs in the village, 400 on the boats and a further 400 in associated factories? Was he told that much capital funding has been invested in the harbour over the years--£750,000 in 1955 and a further £5 million in 1985?

The right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) was a Member of the European Parliament with me at the time when representations were made and money was provided for Europe to help. Money has been invested in the fishing industry. Will that investment now be lost? The EC regulations allow foreign boats from Spain, France and Belgium to fish the Irish sea, although there is not enough fish to sustain the local fleet. Already, 10 to 12 boats are tied up because their owners cannot achieve enough catch to sustain them. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North said that the fishermen rightly say that their quota is larger than that for the ships from the other countries, but if their men have to tie up, why can the other countries continue fishing? The Minister must come clean and tell us the reason for that, because it goes to the very heart of this debacle.

The problem is exacerbated because some countries do not enforce the regulations--allowing, as in the case of some Spanish boats operating on a British licence, the taking of small fish, thus further reducing the available adult population. Many of the remaining boats face dire circumstances. They have made heavy capital investment, and they do not earn enough to pay for the

borrowing--never mind make a living. That is the fact of the matter. The fishermen have their backs against the wall.

The Government must take effective action, not oppressive action. They must listen to the fears of the fishermen, and produce an effective management regime which offers the opportunity to fish and preserve stock. To make the industry viable once again, the fleet at Portavogie would need to be reduced by 30 per cent. That is the figure that the fishermen have given me.

I am pleased to tell the Minister that I will not be absent when he responds ; I will be here to listen to his answers. I understand that hon. Members have other duties, and I am not passing any judgment on them. Many a time I have had to apologise for being absent, but I will be in the House tonight to listen. I will be using the ears which my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) told another hon. Member to use. I will be using my ears, and I may have to use my mouth as well if the Minister does not give me satisfactory answers.

Many owners are prepared to opt out of the industry. I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North that, if compensation is given to farmers through set-aside, and if the fishing boats cannot earn enough to make them viable because of regulations over which they have no control whatever, the Government must start a scheme to take out of commission those boats that cannot be managed on a viable basis. The time has come for the Government to provide the money. I call on the Government to make the necessary funds available to finance a proper decommissioning scheme. Can the Minister explain what happened to the amendment that was to be made to the conservation Bill? My papers show that, during discussion of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, the Minister said that, if the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) would withdraw his new clause,

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"the Government will table an amendment in another place to insert those provisions in the Bill."--[ Official Report, 14 July 1992 ; Vol. 211, c. 1027.]

I understand that the proposed new clause was not moved, but Lord Howe explained how that would be covered without having an amendment.

Mr. Curry : If the hon. Member can stay even longer tonight, he will have the opportunity to vote for that amendment which fulfils the Government's pledge. The fact is that we tabled an amendment in the other place which fulfilled that pledge. The amendment is complex in form. I am willing to let the hon. Gentleman have the long dissertation which my lawyers produced to explain why it had to be in such a form. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the practical effect of the amendment is precisely as I promised to the House.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I am glad of that. I will be in the House for as long is it sits, for one reason--I cannot get home, because there is no aircraft to take me after the House rises. I will be here, and I should be grateful if the Minister could give me what he has promised, because the matter has been raised with me by people who are worried about it. As the Minister knows, I do not put this in a critical way. I want an explanation that I can give those people.

Mr. Curry : I think that the hon. Gentleman is asking me to write to him with a detailed explanation. The matter is complicated for debate. I undertake that I will write to the hon. Gentleman.

Rev Ian Paisley : I will weigh up what the hon. Gentleman says when we come to the amendment.

I want to ask the Minister about the Hague preference and how it affects the fishing quota regime, especially for the Northern Ireland fishermen. According to the fishermen who have lobbied me, Northern Ireland is suffering because our so-called EC partner, the Republic of Ireland, applied the Hague preference against our fishing rights to cod, plaice and white fish.

There is no intergovernmental co-operation, although we are told that we have wonderful co-operation with the Irish Republic. We have an Anglo-Irish agreement. Now we are told that, despite that agreement, the Irish Government are unable to fulfil their fishing quota, yet we are not permitted to obtain that quota, which we could very well do with. I ask the Minister to apply himself to that difficulty tonight.

This is an important debate. We are all worried about the matter. It goes to the heart of the well-being of the fishing communities. Everyone knows that no community around our coasts is as tightly knit as the fishing communities. There is a peculiarity about fishing communities : they deserve the Minister's best. I warn him that, if he does not give them his best when he goes to the negotiations in Europe--if he comes home and tells us that he could not get what we know he must get to allow the industry to continue to be viable--he will be in serious trouble.

5.40 pm

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : In both his opening and concluding remarks the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) referred to the unity of

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interest of the fishing industry throughout the United Kingdom. The names of the ports may be different but his descriptions of an industry with its back to the wall and of the anger of fishermen who, while their boats are tied up, see continental fishermen fishing in close waters apply to fishermen throughout the United Kingdom. I also share the hon. Gentleman's frustration that there is no aeroplane which will take me back home after the hour at which the House rises. So there is common feeling in the debate on many matters.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir Hector Monro), reminded the House of the tragedies with which the fishing communities have become all too well acquainted. The number of occasions on which the House expresses sympathy with communities who have lost people at sea reminds us of the price paid for the supply of an important commodity.

For generations, fishermen have been acquainted with the ups and downs of the fortunes of the industry. But few would quibble with the claim that today the industry faces a dire crisis in terms of morale, its current fortunes and its prospects. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) queried whether some Opposition Members, and especially the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), lived in the same world as he did. I wonder what world he lives in if he has not caught the mood in the fishing industry.

Today a flotilla of fishing vessels is accompanying the royal yacht Britannia to make their protests known. We have also seen the blockade of Lochinver today and on Friday fishermen from ports throughout the United Kingdom, including 54 from my constituency in a chartered plane, will come to Edinburgh to demonstrate their fury and justifiable anger with a Government who impose unreasonable restrictions on the way in which fishermen can prosecute their livelihood.

The protests show the sense of need, anger and crisis in the industry. So the debate comes at a critical time, against the background not only of the protests but of the mid-term review of the common fisheries policy and yet again the annual review of our total allowable catches. There was an exhaustive discussion of the mid-term review in one of the European Standing Committees recently. I do not wish to go over that ground again, but since that time there has been a meeting of the Council of Ministers. While relative stability was affirmed, some weasel words were attached to it in the original draft, which seemed to qualify it in several respects. I know that the Minister was worried about that. Perhaps he could tell us what progress has been made in taking those words out.

I believe that the north of Scotland box has been established for a continuing period. The Minister knows my views on that. We should have liked further measures to be taken in that respect, but undoubtedly that is an argument to which we shall return on future occasions.

Mr. Curry : I thought that I would give the hon. Gentleman an appetiser. He is right. We have safeguarded the Shetland box.

Mr. Wallace : If the Minister thinks that because of that I shall let him off lightly later, he has another think coming.

We also wish to know what progress has been made on the multi-annual basis for total allowable catches. This evening we are also debating the TACs for 1993. They are

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a little like a shopping list. I hope that the Minister will be well informed about the views of the House before he goes to the critical negotiations. We may say things which will strengthen his arm in the negotiations.

We welcome the increase in the North sea haddock TAC. However, as I said to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, we urge the Government to keep down the volume allocated to an industrial fishery. The more fish that is taken for the industrial fishery, the less there will be for fishing for human consumption. The Minister must also take into account that it may yet be necessary to obtain some haddock from Norway in the negotiations which have still to be completed.

Why does the TAC for Clyde herring appear to be so low? There is a strong argument for maintaining the status quo.

The west coast fishery seems to be a hardy annual. There is only a precautionary TAC for hake, monkfish and megrim, and there is insufficient scientific evidence that the TAC should not be increased to provide fishing opportunities for the many fishing communities who want to fish those species.

It has already been accepted in the debate that saithe is in poor shape. However, there is some evidence that it is a clean fishery and that large fish are being caught. That begs the question whether the scientific evidence justifies the severe reductions in saithe fishing. I would appreciate the Minister' comments on that. As the hon. Member for Antrim, North said, it would be helpful if the TAC agreed for Irish sea whiting was such that it was not necessary to invoke the Hague preference rules, which would disadvantage United Kingdom fishermen.

We await the outcome of the negotiations with Norway on mackerel and herring. Last year the Minister achieved a satisfactory arrangement. Until last year there appeared to be a creeping increase in the additional amount that Norway sought each year. I hope that that will be resisted again this year. If the Minister succeeds in doing that, he can expect plaudits and congratulations.

Mr. Curry : I intervene in the constructive spirit of the debate. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Norwegian negotiations will be particularly difficult this year because of the European Economic Area agreement. The Swiss vote means that the agreement will not proceed on 1 January. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has already said that we have asked the Commission to adjust its proposals on imports and tariffs, because they are clearly affected. The Norwegians are fairly twitchy on the matter as a result of agreement and the negotiations will be difficult. I am sure that the objectives which he is about to outline are those which we shall undertake to fulfil.

Mr. Wallace : I am grateful for that explanation. There is a feeling that concessions have already been made to Norway on the EEA arrangements and that there should be no duplication. People sometimes use the term "trading paper fish", but real fish should not be added to the paper fish. I am sure that the Minister will seek to achieve that objective.

It is useful to recall that after the December meeting of the Council of Ministers last year it was acknowledged that the deal secured by Ministers was a reasonable one. I recall urging Ministers to grasp the opportunity to sit down with leaders of the fishing industry and co-operate

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on future policy. Twelve months ago, we see that that opportunity was tossed away, with the resulting appalling consequences for fishermen, their families and their communities.

Only a few weeks after Ministers managed to get that deal, we at long last had the decommissioning package unveiled. But, as has already been said, it was too little, too late. One did not have to be a cynic to note its timing just a few weeks before the general election. One did not need more than a fleeting acquaintance with the industry to recognise that the amount on offer was too little. One did not need to read the fine print too closely to note the strings which the Government attached to the offer. I am sure that many hon. Members who represent fishing communities will agree that the Government's insistence on effort limitation, or tie-up days, was one of the most contentious strings.

The Government will prohibit people from pursuing their livelihoods on certain days and, if one takes stock of what they are doing in this Session, that takes a fair bit of brass neck. The other day, the Home Secretary told us that the Government will introduce legislation in this Parliament to allow shopowners to trade on Sundays, but they have introduced legislation in the same Session to stop fishermen from fishing on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. We should be under no illusions about what their legislation will do--it will stop people from earning their livelihood, and that is what has built up such resentment in the fishing industry.

Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman is normally extremely sensible, but the comparison between shopping and fishing was the daftest that I have heard him make for a long time. No natural resources are at stake in shopping--we are not short of customers or of the real estate to put shops on. Fishermen are fishing for a natural resource--that is the problem.

As I have made clear throughout the passage of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, we are not depriving fishermen of their livelihoods. We intend them to catch the quota, the whole quota, and nothing but the quota. There is nothing in the Bill to stop them from catching their legitimate entitlement, and I can categorically give that pledge.

Mr. Wallace : Clearly, I have touched a raw nerve. The Minister's answer begs the question : why does one need a tie-up? If they fish the quota, the whole quota and nothing but the quota, fishermen could fish 365 days of the year and it would be up to them to manage their quota over the 12 months. By that answer, the Minister has shot a hole through his tie-up proposals.

There is a connection between fishing and shopping. My argument was about the opportunity to pursue one's livelihood and it is right to put it in a context that people will understand. One sector of the community will be allowed greater opportunities to trade, while another vital part of our community will be denied that opportunity. We were relieved to hear that the Government intend to resist the Commission's tie-up proposals. I wondered how they would square the circle if they did not intend to resist the proposals, given the Minister's undertaking on 14 July that there would be no increase in restrictions in 1993. We should not be carried away by the fact that the Government have given us that understanding. While they say that they will not accept the proposals, and that they

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will argue against the Community tie-up scheme, we are left with the home-made scheme established by the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill.

What has angered fishermen more than anything else is the fact that there are restrictions on British fishermen, but their European counterparts will not be subject to similar restrictions. There are enough let-out clauses in the Community proposals to mean that, even if the scheme were carried through, it would mainly affect British fisherman, and particularly Scottish fishermen. We should not lose sight of the fact that European fishermen will be able to carry on fishing when British fishermen will not.

Tie-up rules were first introduced because of a shortage of cod and haddock. No one is claiming that the cod TAC has increased significantly-- there is still a problem there. The haddock TAC has increased enormously, but the Government are still applying the tie-up rules. Will there be sufficient opportunity for British fishermen to catch their quota, their whole quota and nothing but the quota? If anyone can do the figures before 9.30 pm, it would be interesting to find out what proportion of the value of the total catch is contributed by haddock, for those fishermen to whom the haddock catch is significant. I suspect that fishermen derive their living from many other species, which they also ought to have time to fish. It is not merely a question of the increase in haddock ; there are other stocks.

Is the tie-up scheme intended as a conservation measure--as the Minister says, and as Earl Howe said in another place last week--or is it part and parcel of the Government trying to get their multi-annual guidance programme targets? We should not overlook the fact that, while 20 per cent. has been negotiated, which is less than was originally proposed, the backlog from the existing five year target also has to be met. That means that United Kingdom fishermen will have to bear a larger burden of the reduction in capacity than those in almost every other EC country.

Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) : Except Greece.

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