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Mr. Wallace : Yes, apart from Greece. The Government have not said how they will balance effort limitation or tie-up days with decommissioning. If they say that both will contribute to meeting that target, we ought to know how many days tie-up equals how many hundred horsepower of capacity. Otherwise we shall be led a merry dance and there will be no way to quantify or to make an objective assessment of the Government proposals. The Under-Secretary of State omitted to answer that question, and I hope that the Minister of State will come up with a convincing answer.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said in an intervention, the Government are hooked on tie-up and have become blind to every other option. We do not hear much about square mesh panels or gear options these days. The Government even managed to apply the one- net rule insensitively. The Under-Secretary at the Scottish Office suggested to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) that his fishermen could return to port to change nets before they went back out to sea. That observation received the proper reaction in fishing circles.
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Does the Minister honestly believe that his policies will achieve conservation? The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) said that in many cases there will be decommissioning through bankruptcy. Apart from the fact that the scheme is an ad hoc way to bring about decommissioning--it is likely to bankrupt those who are most heavily indebted, which could lead to an aging fleet--those who administer the bankruptcies are unlikely to surrender licences. The chances are that they will be passed on to be aggregated with someone else's licence. That is how fishermen from other countries obtain British licences. At the conference on the common fisheries policy in Shetland earlier this year, someone asked why France does not have that problem. Why do British fishermen not buy up French licences? One of the Commission's representatives answered that question. Even though there is nothing in French statute to prevent it, the French do not give their licences away.The only reason why we have Spanish vessels fishing under flags of convenience is that someone has sold them a licence. One cannot blame fishermen for doing so if they are under tremendous financial pressure and Government policies are putting them under that pressure. The fact that the Government do not propose to tackle the running sore of foreign vessels buying up British licences is the most glaring omission in their proposals for reform of the common fisheries policy. The whole purpose of that policy and the principle of relative stability is undermined by such practices.
Mr. Curry : I am as sensitive as anyone else to that extremely sensitive issue. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he wants me to take measures to prevent fishermen from selling their licences to foreign owners? That is the key of the argument. How would that square with European Community rules, to which his party is particularly attached?
Mr. Wallace : The underlying principle of the common fisheries policy and of the principle of relative stability is the allocation of national quotas. In many respects it could be said to be the converse of what the Community has sought in almost every other area in which we are pursuing the single market. The Community has reached an agreement that there will be national quotas. I understand that a recent court decision affirmed that one can distribute quotas on a national basis. One cannot allow leakages to continue if the integrity of that quota system is to be maintained. It is the responsibility of the Community to sort that out, but we have had no lead from the British Government, who hold the presidency, in proposing any constructive ideas as to how the Community might do that.
Mr. Salmond : Given the concern that is shared in all parts of the House, is it not rather disturbing that the action on flags of convenience proposed in the original Commission document a year ago seems to have disappeared from the most recent document that we have seen, which was produced during the United Kingdom's presidency of the Council of Ministers?
Mr. Wallace : That is very disturbing. I have debated the problem of flags of convenience often enough with the Minister to know that he is concerned about it. However, the real matter of concern to the House is that if we do not
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raise the issue, as the country most aggrieved by it, who will? It has not been raised under the British presidency and we have had no satisfactory explanation why.It is self-evident that the industry is confused and angered by Government policy. I assure the Minister that if he returns with a sensible package on next year's TACs which meets many of our concerns, he will be given due credit for it. However, he should be under no illusion that that alone will be enough.
The abandonment, even tonight, of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill--perhaps a forlorn hope--would be the most sensible thing that the Minister could do to help the fishing industry. So long as the Minister refuses to do that, he will be left with an industry which has every right to feel angry about a Government who, so far as it can judge, and in reality, have basically sold out its interests. 6.1 pm
Mr. David Harris (St. Ives) : As has already been said tonight, too often we must start speeches about fishing by marking a tragedy in our respective constituencies. I know that the House would wish to convey its sympathy to the families of the five Cornishmen from the constituency of the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) who were lost at sea last week. I know that the hon. Gentleman has had to leave the Chamber, but I know that we would like to convey our sympathies, through him, to the families in the Padstow area who lost men in two tragedies within the space of a single week. One can hardly think of anything worse that could happen to such a tight-knit fishing community than to suffer two tragedies in such a short time. It is always a tradition in such debates to consider the problems from a constituency point of view. That is natural, and it is right and proper that we speak up for our fishermen. Perhaps I could start, however, by speaking up for a fishery that is a long way from us, although I believe that I am the Member nearest to it--the Falklands fishery.
I am sure that various hon. Members have received representations from the Falkland Islands Government about the threat that that fishery could face because of an agreement between the European Commission and the Argentine, which has been initialled by a Commissioner without the backing of our Government.
I have had the privilege to visit the Falklands and to study that fishery, which is managed well. It is perhaps significant that £6 million a year is spent on research on and management of that important resource. Therefore, the Falkland Islands Government are disturbed, to put it mildly, that, apparently, under the new agreement a number of boats from the Community, particularly from Spain and Portugal--which is no surprise to anyone--are likely to go down to the Argentine waters that abut the Falklands waters and fish without restriction. That would have serious implications for the neighbouring Falklands fishery, because squid pay no respect to lines on maps, any more than cod, haddock or any other species do. I hope that my hon. Friend will take up this issue with the Commission ; perhaps he will reply to my concerns tonight.
At home, it is important to consider some of the issues that are, to put it mildly, worrying Cornish fishermen. In the past two weeks, we have witnessed the premature closure of the hake fishery. Suddenly, without warning, that fishery was closed. The Cornish Fish Producers Organisation, which is responsible for managing the
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sectoral quota, estimates that fishermen still have about 16 tonnes of hake to catch. To the uninitiated, that may not seem a big deal, but it is equivalent to fish worth £100,000. Cornish fishermen could well do with that money, particularly in the current economic climate.The fishery has been closed because others have overshot. My hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) was right to draw attention to the fact that there has been considerable overshooting in the non-sector. I suspect that that is due, in part, to the Spanish boats and the belated returns from Spain for hake caught.
Mike Townsend, the chief executive of the Cornish Fish Producers Organisation, believes that his fishermen are being penalised for their good management of the sectoral quota. They have tried to maintain that fishery right through the year, but, because others have managed it badly, they are being penalised and the fishery has been closed. Its closure will not just affect Cornwall.
When I raised this issue with my hon. Friend the Minister at Question Time last week, he said that, if there was a single fish to be caught, the fishery could be reopened. I should like my hon. Friend to check the figures, because I understand that there are still fish to be caught. We seem to be heading towards an overshoot of the hake allocation, but I believe that the closure of the fishery was not only precautionary but premature.
Cornish fishermen have managed their own fishery superbly in accordance with all the guidance laid down by the Ministry, and it is unfair on them, and no doubt on others, for that fishery to be closed suddenly. I demand of the Minister that he confirms that that penalisation will not carry forward to next year. I hope that the fishermen will be allowed to catch extra fish to compensate for the fish they have lost. I hope that the sectoral quota for next year will not be cut as a result of my hon. Friend's decision, or that of his officials, to close the fishery.
Mr. Curry : My hon. Friend knows that I sent him a brief note about this. It is true that the hake sector was approaching the point at which we had to close the fishery, because it was clear that it would be exhausted. I have a list of all the closures around the coast, which I do not wish to go into. However, it shows that a decision to close is reached when it is near certain that, by the time the results come in, a sector is at, or in some cases over, quota. The United Kingdom has got quite a strong record of going over quota. On the latest figures for hake that date from Monday-- there is a gap of two to three weeks before all the figures come in--the sector was taking 98 per cent. of the quota and the non-sector was taking 93 per cent. Therefore, the landings at that point--the whole quota allocation--had reached 6,797 tonnes against an allocation of 7,140 tonnes. Given the necessary time lag, it is certain that the quota would be met.
I accept that, in some cases, it is the non-sector that catches the fish, and that the producer organisations suffer, but in some cases the POs appear to go over the top of the allocation. We try to organise the guidelines on catches sensibly, but no one can tell how much fish a man will catch on a particular trip.
I have two points to make about the compensatory mechanism. First, nobody's track record suffers because he has been obliged to take less than he might otherwise
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have taken. Secondly, those who have gone over the quota must pay back in the subsequent year to those who were forced to stop fishing under the quota.Mr. Harris : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that clear. As he said, he did so in a note earlier today.
The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) mentioned Ireland and the Hague preference. There is no doubt that Ireland got a good deal from the agreement on the multi-annual guidance programme in its targets for reducing the effort of the member states' fleets. O that we could have had the same deal. However, my concern is not confined to that aspect. I am worried about how Ireland is building up its fleet and pressing, on the basis of the Hague preference, its need for extra quota. This worries not only hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland but fishing interests in the south-west. We have discussed the Hague preference many times in the House, and it featured largely in the debate in Standing Committee A when we discussed the mid-term review. I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are thoroughly familiar with the Hague preference, but I remind you that it was a political deal--there is no other way to describe it--struck before we entered the common fisheries policy. It was a trade-off, as most such issues are.
Some parts of the Community were given a special status because it was said that they were particularly dependent on fishing, and other regions were denied it. It is a continuing matter not just of controversy but of discontent, particularly in the south-west and other parts of England--
Mr. Austin Mitchell : Including Humberside.
Mr. Harris : Certainly. We can all name our own areas which were denied that status and look to other parts of the United Kingdom with envy. Scotland has special status, and good luck to it. But it cannot be said that Cornwall is any less dependent on fishing than many parts of Scotland. It was simply a crude political deal.
I have never been corrected in the past when I have said that, surprisingly, that deal was signed by the present Lord Owen, who was at the time the Member of Parliament for Plymouth and a Foreign Office Minister. He signed it in the latter capacity because fishing was then negotiated by the Foreign Office. Responsibility for fisheries was rightly taken away from the Foreign Office and given to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Lord Owen dealt an awful blow to the fishing industry in the south-west, because the consequences of our being denied the Hague preference did not lead simply to a six-mile limit, compared to the 12-mile limit in force in many parts of the country : it goes through to the present day. Grants were paid to our detriment, and it is now being operated in the form of the preferential deal that Ireland is trying to negotiate on the basis that it has Hague agreement status. That is terribly wrong.
The problem should have been dealt with in the mid-term review. I know that the Minister would argue that, overall, it is in the United Kingdom's interest that we should maintain Hague agreement preference for certain parts of the country. I have heard that argument before. That is all right, but it is doubly unfair to areas such as Cornwall, which have been denied that assistance. In considering new mechanisms proposed by the European
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Community, I urge my hon. Friend to redress the balance so that areas dependent on fishing, which have been denied the advantages of Hague agreement status for all these years, are given what they are entitled to.On the mid-term review of the common fisheries policy, I agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) about flag of convenience vessels or quota hoppers--call them what you will. We regard it as a missed opportunity of our presidency, as the Government should have taken a political lead on the issue to get a resolution--
Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : To suggest what?
Mr. Harris : To suggest, during the presidency, that we should at least try to reach an agreement with the other member states to outlaw the terrible practice of countries transferring their boats to our register.
My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) and I make common cause on that issue, because the ruling of the European Court of Justice torpedoed the Government's laudable but belated attempts to deal with the issue on the basis of British legislation through section 2 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988, which got rid of quota hoppers. But when we lost that central part of the case before the European Court, some of those quota hoppers returned to our register, with all the consequences we know about.
That brings me to the vexed question of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill.
Sir Teddy Taylor : Does my hon. Friend agree that the only thing that we have in common on that issue is our belief that the 630 Members of Parliament can do absolutely nothing about it? Although we all scream, complain and moan, the plain fact is that the European Court overturned a law that was passed through this Parliament, and we are utterly powerless.
Mr. Harris : My hon. Friend's assessment of the position is right, but I do not accept that Members of Parliament and the Government can do nothing about it. The Government should have done something about it when they held the presidency. [Interruption.] If my hon. Friend will contain himself for a second, I shall tell him that our job is to press the Government to take action, through the presidency, to try to achieve a political arrangement within the Council of Ministers to deal, once and for all, with the pernicious practice of quota hopping. That is what I have been urging the Minister to do. I would have welcomed some support from my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East. That is the only way forward.
The Minister will confirm that our European partners have had a change in attitude. I have been fighting the battle for nearly 13 years. Whereas, at the beginning, they did not want to know about it, at least a number of other member states have now woken up to the dangers of that practice to their own fishing interests. We should have capitalised on that during the mid-term review.
I know that it was not done simply because the Government were afraid of opening up, during their presidency, a huge Pandora's box of fishing issues to the United Kingdom's detriment. I do not think that I am misstating the case. They wanted a fairly limited mid-term review, and I disagree with them on that point. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland that
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we have missed an opportunity at least to try to get a resolution to a problem that has bedeviled the fishing industry.It is not simply a question of boats coming on our register, fishing against our quotas and fishing in our waters, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East would put it. We have a problem with the multi-annual guidance programme, because some of those boats have returned to our register. I am sure that Her Majesty's Government could have told the Commission, "We have reduced our fees, " and then whispered, "because we have got rid of 100 wretched Spanish boats so that the number in the fleet has been reduced." That argument has been denied us, so the Government have had to consider other ways to meet the multi-annual guidance programme. As we all know, they have failed to do so until now. Therefore, they have been forced, wrongly, to adopt the tying-up policy.
To answer the question posed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, I believe that tying-up has more to do with meeting our MAGP than true conservation. I have a common cause with the hon. Gentleman in that I have opposed the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, and will continue to do so. It does not meet this country's true conservation needs. I shall not repeat all the arguments, but I believe that the tying-up policy is unfair and unworkable. I quarrel with some of my good friends in the fishing industry when they say that the answer lies almost completely in a decommissioning scheme. I do not buy that argument. The Government are correct to argue that, if one places total reliance on decommissioning, those left in the industry will intensify their efforts and fish, if not in all the space created, in much of it. I accept that other methods are needed. I agree that the figure of £25 million is too low, but that is not the fault of the Minister. We should take up that matter with the Treasury, where the constraint lies, not with the Ministry of Agriculture.
What are the answers to the central issue of how to conserve fish and obtain a better balance between increasing catching capacity and declining fish stocks? Decommissioning should play a greater role in achieving that balance. I also agree with Opposition Members who said that gearing, net sizes and the technical measures could undoubtedly make a greater contribution.
However, we should consider another factor. I have been advancing this argument to the industry ever since the impressive rally in Westminster hall. I said then that the Bill would be passed even though neither I nor those at the rally would want it to be--I suspect that it will pass through its final stages tonight. However, even at this late hour, the industry should produce measures that it considers preferable to tying up--I know that many people are doing so. It should consider the designation of closed areas, particularly during spawning time, so that boats do not fish there then. That would be a positive conservation measure, in tune with the wishes of many fishermen. When I discussed the subject with them, they said that they used to do so on a voluntary basis years ago.
I plead with the Minister, even at this late hour--the Bill will no doubt be enacted, but I do not want the Act to be implemented--to begin meaningful discussions with the industry, as sections within it want to do so. My hon. Friend should make his experts available so that there can be sensible discussions about policies other than tying up. I am afraid that he will not do so and may, in the new year,
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introduce orders to implement the tying--up policy below the 1991 levels of effort. If he does introduce those orders, I shall, with sadness, vote against them.6.24 pm
Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) : I generally agree with the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris), but I emphasise that we faced the EC Factortame judgment largely because of the slow and clumsy way in which the Government framed the legislation. Their crucial failure was to allow the Spanish vessels to get a foothold and then use that fact to appeal to the European Court. That was a mistake made by no other European country, so Spain does not have a base anywhere else from which to launch its appeal. That has been the problem in the past, and the Government must take responsibility for that failure. The debate is being held while the fishing industry is in an atmosphere of gloom. I do not think that the debate will add much good cheer before Christmas to an industry that is in crisis. In various parts of the country the industry still has quota to catch--for example, the Grimsby cod quota--but the fishing has been abruptly stopped by Government intervention.
An increasing number of vessels are already being tied up even before the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill is enacted and implemented. According to the documents that we are discussing, the Commission wants to increase its role and powers ; it wants to take more responsibility for regulation away from national Government in defiance of the principle of subsidiarity. Increasingly, Europe is giving us mechanistic, rigid structures. Barmy measures that are not suited to local circumstances will become more common if the Commission is allowed to do what it wants.
The United Kingdom Government are desperately trying to rectify the mistake that they made in delaying the introduction of a proper decommissioning scheme so that our industry could be restructured in a managed way. That delay means that the Government are now required to try to catch up, using the desperate measure of imposing on the industry the authoritarian regime set out in the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. They are attempting to restructure the industry through bankruptcy. Their policy is to stop fishermen fishing by driving them to bankruptcy as they are unable to make an adequate living.
To add to those follies and problems, we have what the Minister calls "successful" negotiations on capacity. If he considers the negotiations successful, he must be using Euro-speak. I do not know why he did not use the phrase "game, set and match" on his return from the Brussels negotiations. If that is what he considers to be success, I should like to hear his definition of failure. In the press release on the agreed fishing fleet reductions the Minister states that they
"will ensure that the burden adjustment is equitably shared." Yet other states have come away from those negotiations with lower and much more achievable targets than have the Government and this nation. The reduction in gross tonnage faced by the United Kingdom fleet will be 19 per cent. I do not think that many people have noticed that the figure will be more than 19 per cent.--28 per cent.--if we include the penalty for the reductions that we have not achieved in the multi-annual guidance programme. That is the second largest reduction requirement ; only that of Greece is higher.
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Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman has mixed up the figures. The figure of 19 per cent. refers to the cuts with the backlog--without the backlog, the figure is 10 per cent. The 28 per cent. is mythical.
Mr. Mitchell : Even if I accept that point--I shall think about it and may argue with the Minister later--the estimates for percentage changes in gross registered tonnage give us a 19 per cent. reduction, France an 8 per cent. reduction, Denmark 6 per cent., Italy 7 per cent. and Spain 4 per cent. Spain has a huge, marauding armada--the biggest fleet in the Community--which is largely unpoliced. Many of its vessels have secret fish rooms in which to conceal the catches. The vessels land in Spain where the catches are not properly controlled--a sort of British privateering of the 16th century in reverse.The Spanish fleet is the main threat and has been the cause of the greatest pressure on our agreements with Norway. It was the main problem and the main cause of the breakdown in the relationship with Canada. Yet this fleet is to be reduced in size by only 4 per cent.
Mr. Rupert Allason (Torbay) : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the problem is actually much worse than he thinks? Not only are the Spanish responsible for the quota hopping, but the catch that they take back to Spain would certainly be regarded as illegal by our fishery inspectors. English fishermen who visit the Spanish markets are astonished by the size of the fish on sale there--they would clearly be illegal here.
Mr. Mitchell : The hon. Gentleman has access to secret service reports about what is going on in Spain. I have heard similar reports, and he is of course correct. The fact that the Spanish fleet has managed to achieve its MAGPs in the past was partly due to the number of Spanish vessels transferred from their register to ours. Even worse, there has been a massive crisis in southern hake stocks, which has prompted the suggestion that there should be a 90 per cent. reduction in catch. Where will the Spanish vessels do their fishing?
Ireland's fleet has been granted an increase of 1 per cent. Ireland gets a higher quota at the expense of British fishermen by means of the Hague preference. Our fishermen in the Irish sea are having their numbers cut by 20 per cent., while the Irish numbers are to be cut by only 11 per cent., with corresponding gains for them on the west coast of Ireland. That is an inequitable deal for Britain--despite the Minister's description of it as successful. I can see no element of success in it. It will cause a disproportionately large reduction in this country's fishing effort.
The Minister will know that I am no friend to regionalism because it works against the interests of Grimsby's vessels. I therefore regard the Shetland box as a load of blah. It is totally unnecessary ; it was designed to build up Shetland's industry to the exclusion of vessels from Humberside. It has no biological justification. It is interesting that the Commission's own scientific and technical committee, looking into biological boxes, decided that Shetland was unworthy of consideration because it was not a biological box.
Mr. Wallace : The hon. Gentleman will know that the box operates so as to restrict the number of vessels from member states that can be in it at any one time. Can he tell
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me of any vessels from Humberside in the past 10 years that have been unable to enter the box because of the restrictions?Mr. Mitchell : If I had the statistics to hand, the hon. Gentleman would need a biological box to protect himself from them. I cannot quote any such examples, but the box is still a restriction on the overall opportunities available to the Humberside fleet, and it is wholly unnecessary.
As other speakers have said, we should have taken this opportunity to deal with the problem of the Hague preference, which discriminates against not only Grimsby but other areas to the south. The definition of north Britain is ludicrous, reaching as far down as Flamborough Head but not including Grimsby and other communities that depend on fishing. Grimsby is, par excellence, such a community, but it is not included in the Hague preference. Hence we are redistributing catches to Ireland, and our fishermen are suffering as a result. The preference is unfair and we should have taken the opportunity to get rid of it. It penalises large areas of England--
Mr. Mitchell : --and Wales which should not be thus treated. The Minister should tell us now that he will resist any reductions and keep the North sea cod TACs above Hague preference levels, so that we will avoid futher problems in that area.
Mr. Curry : My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State said earlier that we would seek to edge up that quota without triggering the Hague preference. We can only do that if we are convinced that we can do so within sensible conservation limits. I certainly hope that that will be possible in this case.
Mr. Mitchell : I thank the Minister for that : I hope that it materialises.
I do not know why we are not making more of subsidiarity when it comes to fishing. In fishing matters it is crucial that we defend and expand the power to use national conservation measures, including gear options and exclusion from grounds at certain seasons of the year. We need to employ real conservation measures of that sort, not the phoney conservation measures that we will discuss later tonight under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. We must protect smaller, younger fish, and protect our grounds at certain times of the year. As for relative stability, given the losses sustained from the 1983 agreement on quota shares we must prevent further incursions by the Spanish fleet into the North sea and north European waters. The Minister said in Committee that he thought he had successfully fought to keep the six and 12-mile limits.
I dread the Commission's proposals for even further cuts in days at sea. Such cuts, coming on top of the Bill, will mean that the industry is tied up for much of the year. That is monstrous. European measures are compounding British measures to restrict the sort of fishing that our men go in for and their ability to put to sea. We should counter such ideas with arguments for selectivity and for gear measures, and for the sort of conservation-conscious passive fishing that Grimsby boats go in for. As for tie-up days and restrictions on effort, there should be a bonus for
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ports such as Grimsby that use conservation- effective measures. We should concentrate on alternatives to tie-ups, including technical mesh options and closed areas.We should have taken the opportunity of our presidency to deal with the problem of industrial fishing. It is monstrous that the political influence of the Danes has been used to resist any change in industrial fishing. We cannot allow mass industrial fishing to continue while stocks are so low. The Commission document whitewashes industrial fishing, saying only that there is a need for more research. That is what people always say when they want to do nothing. Banning industrial fishing from the North sea will improve cod and haddock stocks by 20 per cent. or more. Why, then, must MAFF and the Commission prevaricate on an issue on which there has been prevarication for far too long already ? We desperately need urgent action to ban the crime of industrial fishing on the scale that is permitted.
Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman said that the Commission report is a whitewash. We have just received it ; we will analyse it closely. We have to be able to prove our case. All my instincts are the same as the hon. Gentleman's on this matter. Even Fishing News, a newspaper which the hon. Gentleman is likely to find more sympathetic than I would, carries an article about industrial fishing in which one of our leading scientists says that the case is not yet proven. We have not yet been able to sustain a categorical case, even though I should like to be able to do so because, as I have said, my instincts are the same as those of other Members who have spoken on the subject. I must point out, though, that the subject is a little more complicated than we sometimes portray it to be.
Mr. Mitchell : I accept that. I accept that we think alike on the issue. None the less, any argument is difficult to prove in scientific terms. It is difficult to know what is taking place biologically in the North sea. We do not know, for example, why the haddock stock is improving. We do not know why the consequences of colder water that have hit Canada and Iceland are not being experienced in the North sea. Scientific proof will be an onerous burden but, a priori, rational observation must show the need to give preference to fishing for human consumption rather than for industrial purposes. By-catches must have a long-term effect on stocks. I accept the Minister's support or agreement in that context, but the onus should not be placed on scientific argument ; if it is, the argument will be difficult to establish.
I shall conclude with a problem that will face us and that will arise following the enactment of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, which we shall debate later tonight. I assume that it will be enacted because it is more than likely that the payroll vote will be trundled in. One of the results will be horrendous. It is untenable that large sections of the British fleet should be tied up--they will be prevented from fishing for a substantial, and perhaps increasing, number of days a year--when at the same time an increasing European effort is rippling across the North sea. It is a fishing activity that has been displaced from grounds to the east. It is moving over into our waters and into our limits and displacing the British effort, which is tied up.
What will our fishermen feel when they are tied up, as it were, and unable to fish as a result of Government measures? They know that the European effort in the waters in which they have always fished will increase for
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ever. That is not tenable and it is a problem that the Minister must tackle. He can do so by envisaging a rapprochement--a compromise or arrangement--with the industry by mobilising it for a purpose that seems to be paramount in the title of the Bill which we are to consider later tonight, that of sea fish conservation. He must work with the industry to achieve that.The Minister must introduce some measures to control the European effort that is fishing in our waters so that it does not increase. We must establish a track record such as a days-at-sea limitation on fishing in British waters and restrict the European effort to it, so as to satisfy our fishermen that when they are prevented from fishing the stocks will not be taken by an increasing European effort. If that is not done, the industry will face a nightmare. Indeed, something must be done along those lines.
The Commission proposes that we should go ahead with satellite surveillance. There has been talk of 50 per cent. funding by the Commission. The EC-Argentina agreement, which is designed largely to help Spanish development, establishes the precedent of the Commission paying 100 per cent. of the costs. Why should it not pay 100 per cent. of the costs of the satellite scheme, if it is to be established? If vessels are to be observed by satellite and must carry equipment to enable their position to be established by satellite, why should we not have access to the system for national purposes? We could then establish how many days vessels fish in British waters. Why should we not be able to inspect their log books to establish what their effort is in British waters and to restrict the growth of their activities? That is probably the only concomitant or quid pro quo that the British industry would accept as reasonable if it were to be limited in its efforts.
There must be some measure to police and control the landings of other vessels fishing in British waters, whether they are operating under flags of convenience or are registered in the country of origin ; I am talking of vessels fishing in British waters and landing at ports in other parts of Europe. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) suggested that British inspectors could be attached to those European ports. Indeed, we could have any system. There could be designated ports at which British inspectors would be present. There could be designated ports for members of a European inspection force charged with policing vessels coming in from British waters. We must know what has been caught. Catches must be accurately recorded. Other European vessels must be treated in the same way and made subject to the same inspection and enforcement procedures as our vessels when they return to our ports from our waters. The same terms should apply to the European effort in our waters so that we can be satisfied that it is not increasingly taking up the catches that our vessels are precluded from taking. The Minister must co-operate with the industry, and that brings me to the problem of discards. The European document deals with it in a somewhat meandering and hand-wringing fashion without producing any proposals. I think that the Minister will agree that the system of total allowable catches--TACs--is an inherently bad one. We are using it because it is a faute de mieux. The total allowable catch becomes the catch to aim at. It becomes not the total allowable catch but the total catch that hits the market ; in other words, it is the total marketable catch. If that catch is exceeded, fish are dumped overboard. That
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is disastrous. With certain species, we are dumping almost as much overboard in discards as we are landing. None the less, stocks are decimated. Something must be done.think of a way in which we increase the allowable catch by estimating the current level of discards and then requiring vessels to land everything at their home ports? That could be coupled with alimitation on landing and possession size to stop the catching of smaller fish. The French are especially adept at catching smaller fish. I see increasingly small fish at the Grimsby market, and thereare large quantities of small fish in Scotland. Earlier this year, there were large quantities of small haddock which could not be dealwith, and accordingly they were dumped. It is ludicrous that so manysmall fish are being caught when we could increase the permissible landing size. Mr. Curry : I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for interrupting his conclusion, which has been going on for some time now.
None of us is possessed of absolute truth on discards. It is a problem that all of us must face. The hon. Gentleman suggests that we should compel fishermen to land all their discards and to make discards a special part of the quota. He says also that small fish should not be landed.
All of us, including Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, recognise that we are faced with a major problem. The same can be said of the diagnosis of the problem. If a fisherman must land his catch, and if discards and small fish must be part of the quota, there will be a temptation to ensure that his quota is made up of the best quality and most marketable fish. That means that there will be discarding. If we say that such fish must be landed but they will not count against the quota, the incentive for conservation fishing will be removed and a secondary market will be created in discarded fish. That will hang over the marketplace and depress the value of the fish that have been landed.
I am open to all suggestions. I have said previously that TACs and quotas constitute the best hole that we can find for the moment. I wish that we could find a better one. We shall carefully consider all suggestions in this context. We would like to find a more effective system. In the long term, conservation fishing and mesh sizes may be part of the answer. We must be cautious in thinking that there is one formula that offers a complete answer. I recognise and share the hon. Gentleman's concern.
Mr. Mitchell : I accept the difficulties.
The procedure that I have outlined, coupled with an increase in minimum landing sizes, would force fishermen to use better or more conservation- effective gear and larger mesh sizes. That would be better for fish stocks than having them caught and dumped. The minimum landing size of sole, for example is 24 cm. I am no scientist, but I understand that if the size were increased to 26 cm, that would allow all the male sole, and most of the female, to mature. The sole would then have the most enjoyable part of their lives. They would mature and breed and we would get more fish-- [Interruption.] Why not give the sole all that happiness? It is ludicrous to keep the minimum landing size so small.
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The Minister rightly remarked on the length of my concluding remarks, which have run to about three pages. He will get his Bill passed later tonight, but I shall oppose it, as I think it is monstrous. I hope that he will use the opportunity provided by the Bill to talk to the industry and rebuild the bridges that have been so badly burned over the past few months. He must work to have the Bill accepted rather than impose it by brute majority, as he did in this House and, from what I have read of the proceedings, in the other place.The Minister must give as well as take and he must make some concessions. He must get together with the industry throughout the country, and in particular with the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations, to discuss how the Bill can be implemented without causing war between the industry and himself.
Mr. Curry : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that we cannot use brute force to get a Bill passed in the other place, where not a single amendment that went to the fabric of the Bill was pressed to the vote. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should talk to his noble Friends.
Mr. Mitchell : I accept that using brute force in the other place is like using straitjackets in a geriatric ward. I am glad that the Minister is enjoying my speech so much that he wants to prolong it. The point that I make is important. There is open conflict between the Government and the industry, which does not want the Bill. Contrary to what the hon. Member for St. Ives said, the industry has offered alternatives and made a whole series of proposals, but the Minister rejected them in favour of his restrictive Bill. The opportunity must now be taken to get together with the industry, and especially with the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations, to discuss proposals for compromise.
Why not take into account in-built conservation measures and give a bonus of more days at sea in return for bigger mesh sizes? Why not take into account the type of gear used by vessels and, again, give bonuses to those who bind themselves to a one-net rule? Why not give bonuses to vessels that land their catches in British ports? We could count the days spent steaming to and from foreign ports as days at sea.
Why do not the Government come up with effective proposals for restricting the European effort in our waters? Why does not the Minister put forward proposals for financial compensation for an industry that is being held back from its work, in the same way as farmers are held back when agricultural land is laid up? The difference is that the farmers are compensated, but the fishermen are not. They always get the worst of the deal. The Minister should discuss that matter.
Let us make no mistake--the Minister is forcing a reconstruction of the fishing industry through bankruptcy. Restricting the time that our fishermen can go to sea will bankrupt them. It will not help conservation, because they will still try to catch as much as they can while at sea. To impose the Bill without further negotiations, further compromises or further agreements with the industry, especially at a time when the increasing European effort in our waters is unrestrained, is a formula for a civil war and for a sulky industry.
The Minister is trying to undermine and cheat the industry. He has both bridges and nets to mend and I hope that he gets on with it.
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6.54 pmMr. Phil Gallie (Ayr) : My speech will be a great deal shorter than the conclusion of the speech of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell). I made my maiden speech on Second Reading of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, and on that occasion the hon. Gentleman followed me. He is indeed the life and "sole" of the House of Commons.
I had not intended to speak in the debate, but the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) stirred me to do so. He said he would not take any interventions. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland imposed no such block during his speech ; indeed, he was generous in giving way. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East was over-defensive, and I wonder why.
The hon. Gentleman criticised the Government for failing, over a number of years, to introduce a decommissioning scheme. The one reason why I shall support the Bill tonight is that, finally, they are introducing one. Labour Members say that the £25 million set aside for that is not enough, but it is a start. Many Scottish Conservative Members have pressed for such a scheme for some time, at the insistence of the various fishing organisations.
I understand that my hon. Friend the Minister will accept the amendment passed in the other place--
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