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Mrs. Ewing : That is a different debate.
Mr. Gallie : I am talking about the Bill and about the amendment passed in the other place-- [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. We are not yet discussing the Lords amendments to the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. We are debating another matter, which, although related, is not the same.
Mr. Gallie : I accept that point, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall come closer to home and discuss the interests of the west coast and the implications of the Bill for that area.
We are discussing European proposals for quotas, but this year's quotas have been an absolute shambles because they were set early in the year and then changed. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to ensure that that does not happen again.
The Bill will impose a limitation on days at sea, something that has proved controversial on previous occasions. It is certainly controversial now. The proposal is rejected by the fishing organisations, and I accept that they have genuine anxieties. Even if the Bill is passed tonight and goes on to receive Royal Assent, it is not necessary to impose that limitation. There will be time for further discussion between the industry and my hon. Friend the Minister. I hope that good advantage will be taken of that time. I want to raise a point about the current proposal for hake quotas for the west of Scotland. The quotas are still being reduced, so there is still a job to be done by Ministers. I want them to re-examine the figures.
The tie-up rules must be clear when the days at sea are allocated. If a skipper were allocated 240 days at sea a year, to take an arithmetical example only, that would amount to 20 days a month. If he did not use his 20 days a month, his annual figure should not be reduced accordingly.
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That brings me to the means of equating days at sea from track records, the base reference year being 1991. I should like to draw hon. Members' attention to a letter from my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) dated 16 October :"We realise that some vessels had to undergo major repair works (other than annual services) during 1991. It would clearly be iniquitous if these days were disallowed from their days at sea allocation. Fishermen will therefore be able to bring forward evidence of time that vessels were laid up for major overhaul or other such repairs."
I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to take that point on board, and say that it will be honoured.
Many hon. Members have mentioned the policing of the regulations. The United Kingdom's officers take pride in enforcing the regulations enthusiastically and efficiently. What is the situation elsewhere? I suggest, as many hon. Members have, that there is a problem in Europe. We tend to implement agreements ; others simply agree. The enforcement of fishing regulations is a joke. We have talked about the excessive number of small fish landed in Spanish and French ports that do not count against allocations. We have seen these things on television programmes, and for once those programmes have got it right. There are excessive landings of under-size fish.
I draw the House's attention to a report by Fishing Business International on the policing efforts of other nations. In the United Kingdom, 21 fishing vessels, 180 inspectors and three aircraft enforce the regulations. France has eight vessels, and understaffed and undertrained inspectors, catch data arrive far too late from Brussels and there are almost no effective sanctions against offenders. Ireland has five vessels and the service is understaffed, undertrained and underequipped. False declarations are the rule rather than the exception. In Portugal, landings are not controlled, there are few inspectors at ports and regulations on minimum mesh sizes are ignored. The Spanish fleet fishes extensively off the shores of the west of Scotland. Seventeen inspectors monitor landings--all of them in Madrid. It is a joke, but it is a sick joke for our fishermen.
The hon. Members for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) and for Great Grimsby referred to the inspection of European ports. I suggest that there might be some advantage in our negotiating to ensure that catches made in quota blocks are landed at quota-block ports. That would meet many of the concerns that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby expressed.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North mentioned throwing fish back into the sea. Small percentage catches can be consequential catches. I can think of nothing worse than the waste of throwing dead fish back into the sea. That must be wrong. I wrote to the Minister recently asking that fishery officers consider the situation with some compassion and common sense. Small catches of, for example, hake should be regarded as consequential catches and ignored.
Fishermen deserve the utmost encouragement ; they certainly have my fullest respect. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) said that he had been fighting their corner for 30 years.
Mr. Gallie : I thought that my hon. Friend looked younger than that. It is still a long time compared with the six months during which I have been dealing with the problem.
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I see fishermen as small business men who have invested their all in their capital project. They need to use that cash to earn their living. They must have fish to catch, but I recognise the Government's concern about conservation methods. The Government feel so strongly about achieving the conservation objectives in the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill that they are stretching the faith of some Conservative Members. However, the proposals that have appeared from Europe recently go way beyond the Government's proposals. I suggest that the Government have second-guessed the Europeans.What is happening to fishermen goes against my natural instincts. We are cutting across market forces, in which I have believed for many years, but we must recognise the reality that we are now part of the EC's rules and that there is only limited room for Ministers to move in.
May I, finally, draw attention to the comments of the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) ? He chastised my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) for not attending the fishermen's rally in Edinburgh on Friday. I do not want to attend the rally and block up the streets of Edinburgh, but I should like to attend a meeting at Tynecastle. Having listened to pleas from the Opposition for an all-party approach, if any hon. Members can get me from Ayr at 2.30 pm to Tynecastle by 3.30 pm, I shall be delighted to attend.
7.9 pm
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) : There is an offer ! Perhaps one of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues will lay on a ministerial car to take him there--
Mr. Austin Mitchell : Or a helicopter.
Mr. Salmond : --or even a helicopter.
We hold this debate in an atmosphere of crisis in the fishing industry. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) almost suggested that I had instigated the demonstration at Lochinver, but that was not so. It was very spontaneous and I am happy to support it. I may have at least helped to instigate the demonstration in the Forth today when a flotilla of Scottish fishing boats will provide an escort for the royal yacht Britannia. I was very pleased to participate in the march and rally in Aberdeen a few weeks ago and shall be delighted to participate in the march and rally in Edinburgh on Friday.
The events of the past two weeks or so have been very successful. We have had more publicity and attention drawn to the industry's problems in the past two weeks than in the past two years or more. We shall have to do without the presence of the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) at the rally on Friday. He seems to be frightened that Scotland will in some way embarrass the Government. The issue at the European summit is not Scotland embarrassing the Government but the Government embarrassing Scotland by its treatment of the fishing industry.
Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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Mr. Salmond : Before the hon. Gentleman gets back on his feet, I shall extend to him a courtesy which he would do well to follow--I shall give way to him.
Mr. Robertson : I remind the House that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman. I am not worried that Scotland will embarrass the Government. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I want the world to see Scotland in the very best light--I want the best for Scotland. I am proud and chuffed that the European Community summit is to be held in our capital city. It is a chance for us to show off to the world rather than to bring Scotland down.
Mr. Salmond : I hear the hon. Gentleman's excuses for his non- attendance on Friday, just as I have heard them for his non-attendance at recent fishing rallies. They carry no conviction, but I shall be fairly gentle with him. It is possible to be a Conservative and to represent the fishing industry. That was demonstrated by the late Alick Buchanan-Smith who did so with distinction for many years. It is also possible to be a Conservative and to be hostile and antagonistic to the fishing industry. The test of the hon. Gentleman's approach is not getting elected for the first time in a fishing constituency but getting elected a second time when his constituents have got his measure and have assessed his contribution to the industry.
The Government are wholly out of touch with feelings in the fishing community. I caution Ministers not to believe that all they have to do to reach calm water is to get through this debate and pass the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill which, I remind the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie), we shall debate later this evening. The demonstration on Friday will not be the end of the fishing industry's campaign against the Government ; it is the beginning of a campaign which will continue into the new year.
There is no doubt that fishing Ministers have lost the confidence of the fishing industry. If they were paid by results, their salary would not only be nil--they would be giving us money back. If their political futures depended on the fishing industry, the two Ministers whom we have heard this evening would be spending more time in their constituencies.
I offer three reasons why the industry is incensed. The first concerns discards. A few minutes ago, the Minister tried to tell us that we face a difficult problem which cannot be solved even though everyone is trying to do so. Especially in recent weeks, the issue has been the unnecessary discard of perhaps thousands of tonnes of haddock into the North sea.
I shall read to the House some remarks made by two constituents, Peter and Stephen Bruce, the skipper and mate of the Buddy Rose. Peter Bruce, the skipper, explains his predicament in the following terms :
"I've been tied up for the past 18 days hoping that we would be given a small amount of haddock to see us through to the end of the year. That's a personal decision I made because I didn't want to do something that is totally alien to all fishermen. Some of the stories I've heard about lads having to throw fish back are heartbreaking. Even in the whiting grounds, they're pulling in loads of haddock. But now I have no choice. I have a young crew who haven't had a wage for three weeks. They have bills to pay the same as everybody else and Christmas is coming up."
His brother Stephen, the mate on the same boat, says that fishermen would rather give fish to charity than have to discard them--dead--into the North sea. He states :
"With the threat of a £50,000 fine, it's just too much of a risk to take. That could finish some boats off. But with so many people starving in the world, it's an absolute tragedy
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that this fish is being wasted. This Government has done nothing for the industry and they're doing nothing to create jobs anywhere else. If we had fishing Ministers who were prepared to fight for their fleets the way the Spaniards do for theirs we might have a chance. Fishermen aren't asking for the earth. Just the chance to go out and make a living."That is the genuine view of the fishing industry at the moment. If Ministers are so out of touch that they believe the nonsense spoken by colleagues in the north-east of Scotland, they should know that the industry is incensed. It is on the march ; it will demonstrate and command public support until the Government change their disastrous course.
An hon. Member said earlier that I could not conjure up fish that were not there, but that has not been the position in the past few months--there are huge quantities of fish in the North sea, although thousands of tonnes of them have perhaps ended up dead and been discarded in the sea.
The second reason involves the tie-up scheme. There is perhaps a place for effort limitation as a mechanism in a fisheries policy. If, in the short term, capacity was clearly out of tune with available stocks, there would of course be an opportunity to employ effort limitation, perhaps a compensated lay-up scheme as applied in other Community countries. However, that is not what is being suggested in the so-called Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. What is being suggested is making tie-up a permanent feature of the fishing industry. When the Bill was introduced, it was argued that we needed tie-up because haddock and other fish stocks were scarce and could not possibly be fished. There has now been a virtual doubling of the haddock quota, but it is still being argued that we need tie-up. It is suggested that if fishermen are allowed to fish, they will catch too much. If there is a tie-up scheme when haddock is scarce and when it is plentiful, the inference is that such a scheme is not a short-term solution but a permanent feature of the Government's fisheries policy.
Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman is employing his usual technique of extrapolating to the point of nonsense. There are more haddock, but they are small--on the margin of the minimum landing size. It would be different if they were large, mature fish in the spawning stock biomass and were able to deliver a stable catch for years ahead. As our scientists predicted, we have had two good year classes. It is essential to ensure that the fish grow and supply stock for future years. If they are pounded now, they will not and we shall shortly find ourselves back where we were two or three years ago.
Mr. Salmond : The Minister has defeated his own argument. Earlier, he said that nothing in the lay-up scheme would impede the catching of the very high haddock quota for next year. If it were a question of the amount of fish available to be caught, the haddock quota would be sufficient. However, he is now saying that we need a lay-up scheme in addition, not to decrease the number of haddock caught but because he accepts that the quota will be fully utilised. The Under-Secretary appeared to suggest earlier to my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) that a tie-up scheme from Brussels was not acceptable but that a home-grown tie-up scheme would be more acceptable to fishermen, but that is nonsense. Any scheme that introduces as a feature of
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fisheries policy the permanent limitation of effort, with no compensation, is bound to be regarded throughout the fishing communities as a grievous injustice.The third factor causing despair to the fishing communities is discrimination--not positive discrimination for the fishermen of this country but the Government's apparent discrimination against their interests.
The Minister was asked earlier about the commitments that were or were not given during the earlier stages of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. Those of us who remember the debate have no doubt that the burden of the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) was the argument that it would be unfair if restrictions were imposed on fishermen in this country without the same restrictions being imposed on fishermen in other Community countries.
I see that at least one of the Conservative rebels from that evening is in the Chamber. Many of us thought that those rebels were rather foolish to be bought off by what we considered an inexact ministerial guarantee. I am sure that the Minister can stand on the words that he deployed that evening and say, "I am sticking to the words." But those who attended the debate have no doubt that the spirit in which the amendment was moved was clear : discriminatory measures would not be introduced for fishermen in this country until there were effective guarantees that such measures would apply equally and properly across the Community.
Mr. Curry indicated dissent.
Mr. Salmond : I see that the Minister is shaking his head, but there is no doubt that that was the burden of the argument on the amendment. The Minister may get around the words of the amendment ; he may manage to dance round what the hon. Member for Tynemouth said--but he must not underestimate the resentment caused in the fishing communities by the fact that with that parliamentary technique he has deliberately defeated the argument advanced, which was resoundingly supported in those communities.
There is a similar attitude to the successful Lords amendment on decommissioning. Of course it is correct to say that a literal interpretation of the amendment can mean that the Minister has only to give proper consideration to decommissioning and then, having done so, he can continue with his existing policy as if nothing had happened. But the purpose of the amendment was to accelerate decommissioning, to advance it in ministerial priorities and to persuade the Government that it should be introduced on its own merits, rather than its being contingent on the acceptance of an otherwise unacceptable Bill.
Last Thursday, the Department said that the amendment would not cause it any inconvenience and that it would not be reversed in the House of Commons because the Department could effectively ignore it when the legislation was implemented. That is to treat the amendment and the sentiments behind it with something like contempt. The fishing industry is up in arms because in policy after policy, and measure after measure, that is the only interpretation of the conduct of the Minister of State responsible for fisheries.
There are other questions which we should be debating but which have been mentioned only in passing. The first
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is the common fisheries policy review. Why do Members of Parliament have to depend on the Minister to give us helpful insights--a little nugget here and a little nugget there--into the current position? The review is fundamental for the next 10 years of fisheries policy, yet we do not have the current documents, nor the right to know what the policy will be. It is deplorable that hon. Members representing fishing communities are debating fisheries without knowing what the most up -to-date proposals are. The first time that we shall be allowed to debate those proposals will be when they are a fait accompli, when the Minister and his colleagues have signed, sealed and delivered the new CFP in Brussels during the next 10 days. I shall ask the Minister several questions. First, has the question of flags of convenience been reintroduced into the new CFP revision? Is it in or out? Secondly, is the Hague preference in or out? Has the Minister defended that preference, which many people from fishing communities think is a useful, indeed essential, measure? Has relative stability been protected in the new proposals, or has it been allowed to be downgraded, as many of us suspected had happened with the previous proposals? With regard to the Spanish accession and Spanish access to Community fishing waters, has anything in the new proposals allowed Spain to get around the accession agreement which would take matters forward into the mid-1990s? Have the loopholes been effectively closed? We have the right to know now.Has additional action been taken against industrial fishing? Several hon. Members have asked whether the Minister, as president of the Fisheries Council, has made any proposals to bring the issue to the top of the CFP review. Multi-annual quotas appeared in the document which we saw, but I understand that they have subsequently been removed from the new proposals. Is the multi-annual quota proposals still in the current document?
Those questions illustrate the fact that the House is debating blind. We do not know the current state of the fundamental policy which will dictate the livelihoods of our constituents over the next 10 years. It is disgraceful that the Minister has not even revealed his current proposals and has not given us the chance to debate them on a level footing with him.
Real resentment against the Minister and the CFP is running through the fishing communities. I believe that it is possible to get a much better deal out of the CFP. Neither the CFP nor Europe made the choice that the Minister would not fight for decommissioning, which has been available in every other European country over the past few years. Other European countries did not choose that the Minister and his Scottish colleague should refuse at the Fisheries Council even to table the proposals for the roll-up of the haddock quota for which we had asked.
I ask the Minister to tell us during the debate what exactly he meant when, in Standing Committee, he claimed that opinion in the industry was divided on the policy. It was not the policy of other European countries that introduced discriminatory legislation against our own fishing industry, which the Minister will reintroduce later today, when we discuss the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. All those initiatives were taken by the Government against the interests of our fishing communities. The Minister
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caused considerable offence among Scottish fishermen and fish processors when he argued in the Standing Committee that the industry had not shut up shop as a result of the starvation of the haddock quota over the past few weeks and months. I tell him in all seriousness that, unless he understands the mood of anger sweeping through the fishing communities as their livelihood and their future are sacrificed and jeopardised, it will not be the fishing communities that shut up shop but the Minister and his colleagues who are called to account.7.27 pm
Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : I try not to interfere too much with Scottish affairs, although I formerly represented a Scottish seat, but I must tell the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) that, although I have not the slightest doubt that he will have a great demonstration, and will shout a great deal with the fishermen, saying "scandalous", "shocking", and "appalling", nothing could be worse for Scottish fishermen than for the hon. Gentleman and his Scottish National party friends to lead them up the garden path, pretending that there is some easy solution which a Scottish National party Administration could provide. We should not listen to such twaddle, which we hear from time to time from hon. Members on both sides of the House.
We must face the sad fact that there has been an embarrassing nightmare of devastation for the fishing industry, and that there is precious little that we can do about it. Unless we get that simple point across to the fishing industry, unless we are prepared to tell people about things as they are, they will lose faith not only in politicians but in democracy.
Although he is on the other side of the House, I must say that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) is a great fighter for fishermen ; but to hear him speak as he did tonight makes us realise how desperate the situation is. The hon. Gentleman said that we should treat fishermen like farmers. Quite honestly, I can think of no more monstrous protectionist racket than our present system for protecting farmers. He wanted EC funding of a satellite, which I am sure would do some good, but he also wanted British police or Euro-policemen at every European port to ensure that fishermen were not landing British fish without our knowledge.
I am sure that that could be done at big ports with big flashy offices--the operation would no doubt be funded with EC money, which would not exactly help matters--but I remind the hon. Gentleman that fish seem also to be landed without anyone knowing about it at the Portpatricks--the little ports of Europe. The fact that the hon. Gentleman, who is a great battler for fishermen, should have to advance such arguments shows us how serious the position is. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan told us that we should march and demonstrate. He will not remember--he was probably at primary school at the time--our great march on Friday 17 September 1971. On that great day, plenty of fishermen came to London from Southend-on-Sea, Leigh-on-Sea and all over the south-east of England to demonstrate. They appealed to the Government, saying, "Please watch out. Our industry is in danger. The 12-mile limit is at risk. The fishing fleet could be wiped out. We shall have foreign vessels coming from everywhere.
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The industry will be devastated." They said that clearly and precisely. We have seen for ourselves what has happened since that great march.I should not like to give the impression that those fishermen were not misled. Only today, fishermen handed me letters that they had received from the Foreign Secretary of the time and other Ministers, saying, "Don't worry ; it will be all right. You will be safeguarded." Unless we are prepared to face the fact that things have gone appallingly wrong since then, we shall never get things right for fishermen--in Scotland or in Southend-on-Sea. We saw what happened shortly afterwards--in a separate context involving EC interpretation--to the deep sea fleet at Grimsby, where the hon. Member for Great Grimsby has fought so hard. We saw a fleet of 500 vessels suddenly reduced to a fleet of 18 and 100,000 fishery-related jobs disappear.
We thought that we had 60 per cent. of the offshore waters and 80 per cent. of the available fish, but somehow our share of the value, at least, seems to have diminished from 80 per cent. to 12 per cent., although it is said that we have a greater percentage of the weight. Our share of the quota has diminished and we now have an appalling problem with the Spanish : because they were given the power not by the British Government but by the European Court, foreign vessels now control a huge part of our quota.
The Minister cannot escape the fact--he will discover from the Court of Auditors report that the same is happening in agriculture--that, in some areas of Europe, supervision is simply a joke. How can anyone justify the fact that we have 200 inspectors for the British fleet, such as it is, whereas the Spanish fleet, which is eight times the size of ours, has only 17 or 18 inspectors? I repeat that inspection is a joke, but the concept of Euro-policemen flying around would solve nothing at all.
What really worries me is that the only effective action that the Government now appear able to take is to propose decommissioning and a reduction in days at sea. I hope that the Government accept the simple basic point that, once they have introduced the concept of selling days at sea--selling licences--we shall move towards the disappearance, step by step, of the British fishing industry. Licences for days at sea will be bought up by foreigners, who have already taken over a great deal of our fishing.
We must not seek to mislead fishermen into thinking that there is something we can do. We cannot have British policemen going around every European port. We cannot suddenly say that we want to extend our fishing limits. It would be infinitely better, more sensible and more honourable if, instead of debating daft ideas--which could not work, and which would in any case be illegal in European terms--suggested by a few Members in a Chamber that is virtually empty because the great majority of hon. Members are embarrassed at what we have done to fishing, we simply told people things as they are. Hon. Members should be in no doubt that I have a fishing industry in my constituency--in Southend-on-Sea and Leigh-on-Sea--which has a great little fleet, operated by people who do not go out in the North sea or to all kinds of strange places but who simply fish locally. I find it most embarrassing having to meet the fishermen of Southend-on-Sea, because they constantly hand me assurances that they have received not only from this Government but from previous Governments.
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They fish for sprats, among other things, and, only today, they handed me a letter that they had received from the Foreign Office dated 6 January 1972. It stated, in relation to the agreement of the time, that it was terribly important."to understand that under this agreement we have, as a result of maintaining full jurisdiction over the whole twelve miles, complete control of our conservation measures."
But I received a letter from the Minister--who is one of the most courteous in the Government--dated 1 December stating :
"the Commission issued a Regulation closing the fishery to all EC vessels, as they had information to suggest that the EC quota had been taken. Such Regulations have direct force in the United Kingdom, and so Fisheries Departments had no choice but to suspend fishermen's licences."
There is a world of difference between our being in charge and a Commission official--not the Council of Ministers--saying stop, and Southend stopping, with all that that entails.
We must also bear in mind the many special problems that face Southend. We are stuck at the end of the cod fishery year, so that when all the cod come down our way, we often have no quota left to fish. The Minister will know that the industry has effectively been shut down for a few weeks, and will remain shut down until mid-January. I have a little suggestion to make to him. It may be unlawful and may not be acceptable to Mr. Delors--indeed, it may be a waste of time my mentioning it--but would it not be possible to have a system whereby, if people are fishing locally off a local port--not going way out to sea with big nets--he could say, "That is for them." ? It would make a huge difference to Southend-on-Sea if we could say that the Thames estuary was for Thames estuary fishermen. I do not expect the Minister to be able to do anything at all about controlling the abuse of quotas by foreigners. I do not seek in any way to give the impression that we can do anything about the big problems or save the British industry. I think that the decision has been made ; it is sad, but it is irreversible, and we must not kid ourselves about it. But might it not be possible in the negotiations to find some way to safeguard our little fishing industry--a terrific, long-standing industry which has great successes and innovations to its name and which is made up of hard-working, decent, honourable people? If the Minister could give us such an assurance, it would be a great step forward.
The Minister is a decent, honourable person. I say that without any lack of conviction or sincerity. I know him to be a straight, honourable politician, and there is a shortage of those on both sides of the House. I hope that he will therefore agree that the best way to deal with fishermen is not to ask them to march or to suggest putting British police at every European port, but to tell things as they are.
I hope, too, that he will bear in mind my suggestion that there might be some little procedure that we could introduce to help local fishing in Britain. If we can do that, and so save something of the fishing industry instead of trying to mislead fishermen and tell them to protest, march and make fools of themselves and us, we shall have done something.
7.38 pm
Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) : I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in tonight's debate coming, as I do, from Northern Ireland and from a constituency within the boundary of which is to be found 60 per cent.
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of the Northern Ireland fishing industry. The constituency also has a unique geographical position because it is contiguous with the Republic of Ireland and that will impinge on my later comments. All of us who represent fishing ports and industries are experiencing depression because the industry is depressed. The industry has served all our nations greatly over many centuries. It is unique because it has not been criticised, as other industries are, for the quality of its product or for lack of efficiency. The industry is being cut back solely because of the run-down of natural resources. We should not try to attribute that to the industry itself.As a nation, we must share responsibility for that. That is why I see no contradiction in seeking special assistance for the fishing industry. I seek not self-centred aid, but assistance that will benefit the entire fishing community of this generation and of generations to come. That is why we are addressing a unique and very special problem of our times.
Like many other hon. Members, I can say that for the fishing towns and villages of my constituency, the fishing industry comprises the whole economic and social fabric of the community. If it breaks up and disappears, I do not doubt that a similar catastrophe will befall the communities themselves. The fishing communities in my constituency do not have the capacity to industrialise in any other way. Their whole ethos is of the sea and fishing--the landing, selling, processing and exportation of the harvest of the sea. It has been that way throughout man's memory.
After our last debate on the issue, a fisherman told me that fishermen have had the right to fish in the Irish sea since long before the Magna Carta was signed. I thought at first that that was an exaggeration, but when we think about it, it is probably quite true. The right to fish for a livelihood is almost a civic right in terms of the people who have plied the seas for centuries. In that context, I hope that the Minister will take on board some of the suggestions that have been made today.
The fishing organisations and fishermen to whom I have spoken have not been anti-conservationist. Without exception, they are deeply conscious of the need to preserve the stocks of the sea which, in turn, will preserve their way of life for themselves and for their families who come after them.
There seems to be a lack of consultation between the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the fishing organisations. I cannot speak with authority about what is happening here, but there is certainly a lack of consultation between the fishing industry in Northern Ireland and the Ministry responsible for it. I hope that that will not be reflected here. Although I accept that the Minister responsible for fisheries in Northern Ireland cannot take part in the debate because he is a Member of the other place. I am disappointed that there are no civil servants from the Ministry in attendance tonight to listen to what Northern Ireland Members wish to say. It is a matter of grave concern to us that that voice has not been heard. That voice, united in consultation with the Government, is capable of producing solutions which I, as a layman, cannot suggest in this debate. That voice is the forum through which the future of the industry can be
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worked out properly in terms of restrictions, quotas, decommissioning and all the other negative impositions that have been and will be placed on the fishing industry.The fishermen in my constituency are annoyed about the operation of the national quota allocation for the Republic of Ireland and about the Hague preference intervention. It is particularly galling for my fishermen because the fishermen in the Republic of Ireland do not fish the entire quota to which they are entitled. On one or two occasions in recent years there has been a transfer of surplus quota from the Republic to the fishermen in Northern Ireland. I urge the Minister in his next round to extrapolate that generosity of earlier years. That practice occurred in respect of nephrops last year. When the fishermen of Kilkeel and Ardglass are tied up in harbour, they can look out across a couple of miles of water and see fishermen from the Republic plying the same waters, catching fish to their hearts' content and not fulfilling their quota. That will be even more alarming because the fishing fleet of the Republic of Ireland is increasing, however slight that increase may be. That is occurring against a backcloth in my constituency of a fishing industry which has, over the past two years, opted for a reinvestment programme in terms of the number of boats, harbour and processing facilities. It is therefore all the more galling that they will probably now be forced out of business.
The consequences of the many restrictions and of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill will be, as many hon. Members have said, the strangulation of parts of the industry as boats will be put out of commission due to financial hardship because they cannot maintain an economic and viable fishing unit. That is no way to repay the fishing industry in terms of its future. If at all possible, the Minister must ensure that a proper decommissioning scheme is introduced. It cannot be beyond the bounds of human endeavour for a proper, fair and comprehensive European-wide decommissioning scheme to be put into practice.
The fishermen and their organisations who have made representations to me are convinced that such a scheme is a viable way forward. There is no antagonism towards it. There is realism and an acceptance that the fishing fleet must be reduced if the quantities of fish are also reducing. There seems no other practical way of taking out the fishing capacity without taking out the boats allied to those catches, however that may be defined and wherever it may be allocated. I hope that the Minister will reappraise the Government's inadequate attitude to the decommissioning scheme. Although I do not want to transgress into our debate on the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, all the fishing organisations in Northern Ireland accept that that Bill deals with everything except conservation. It will not lead to better conservation practices or activities.
I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris), who said earlier that if the Bill is passed, as it probably will be, the best thing to do with it would be--as one does with
constitutions--to put it in the bottom drawer and forget about it altogether.
Mr. John D. Taylor (Strangford) : Reference was made to our large rally during the summer in opposition to the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. If the 20 Conservative
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Members who on that occasion sympathised with and supported the fishermen would also vote against the Bill, it would not automatically be passed.Mr. McGrady : I am afraid that I do not share that optimism. I am sure that, one way or another, a sufficient majority will be found for the Bill to receive its Third Reading today.
Most people see the decommissioning scheme as the logical way forward, allied to other measures which can be agreed with the fishing industry. The fundamental factor is that the fishing industry is depressed and confused. The industry has directives, restrictions and licences thrown at it monthly. It simply does not know where it is or where it is going. Any other industry would have collapsed long ago due to lack of forward planning. The only way out of that malaise is for Government Departments and the Minister to initiate a proper round table conference so that all the vested interests can thrash out a meaningful, practical fishing policy which will take us into the next century. I believe that that can be done, even at this late hour, and that it can be promoted and piloted through the appropriate channels of Europe--if it is desired.
Will the Minister--in league, as it were, with his opposite number at the Northern Ireland Office--make some provision for the adequate training of fishermen in Northern Ireland, especially in those areas where training is not available? It is ludicrous that fishermen in Northern Ireland have to travel abroad to complete their training when there is an adequate possibility of providing that training within Northern Ireland, either on its own or in conjunction with the school at Greencastle across the border.
Having made many representations on the matter, I ask the Minister once again to take cognisance of the dangers to fishermen in the Irish sea from the non-compliance with the regulations established for submarines. Submarines endanger fishermen--their lives, vessels and gear. That has happened again in the past six weeks, despite assurances to the contrary. I should like the Minister to re-examine the matter in terms of normal safety provisions.
I understand that the Minister will be visiting Brussels within the next couple of weeks. The fishermen of Northern Ireland have asked me to ask the Minister to barter for the largest possible quota consistent with scientific conservation measures. Fishermen are conservationists at heart. Will the Minister negotiate with the Republic of Ireland the transfer of surplus quotas--especially those for cod, whiting and plaice--to its neighbours across the border? I do not say this in jest, but perhaps the Minister could take one of his ministerial colleagues from the Northern Ireland Office with him so that we can at least feel that he will have better knowledge of the problems pertaining to the Irish sea and the Northern Ireland fishing organisations at his elbow rather than at a distance.
I feel strongly that the answer to all of the problems that we are debating and the difficulties that we have is one of partnership. There must be a partnership based on proper, adequate and on-going consultation between the fishing industry, the various national organisations and the departments involved. I have no doubt that a partnership is the real way forward for a viable fishing industry, consistent with the stocks of fish that will be available to it.
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