House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Dec 1992

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7.53 pm

Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes) : I have had the privilege of listening to every speech since the debate started about four hours ago. One of the great privileges of attending such a debate is that one is able to conclude that there is consensus in the House, with the exception of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond). He stormed in here, whipped the fishing industry into a great lather, declared that he would march on Edinburgh, then walked out to have his supper. He is not here any more. As a result of the excellent speech of the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady), the debate has returned to the calm, sensible way in which it was proceeding before the hon. Gentleman's speech.

If one has attended the debate since the beginning, one is able to assess that throughout the House there is a strong sense of feeling towards the fishing industry. I do not represent the same number of fishermen as the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), whose constituency backs mine. In the old days, many fishermen lived in my constituency. It was a convention that the skippers came ashore in Grimsby. In those days, the trips were fairly profitable and the skippers lived a good life. Traditionally, they lived in Cleethorpes. Sadly, as the years of decline have passed, fewer fishermen live in my constituency. Inevitably, if one's constituency wholly surrounds the town of Grimsby, one cannot help but become involved and be subject to the pressures and lobbies of the fishermen.

I do not claim to be the expert on the fishing industry that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby is--or, indeed, the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), my neighbour on the other side. It looks as though south Humberside will score a double 20. It is the first time that I can remember that all three hon. Members will have sought to catch the eye of the Chair. The Opposition spokesman and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby bring a wealth of experience which I fully recognise. It is always a privilege to attend the meetings of the local branch of the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations which they attend regularly. They have certainly taught me a great deal over the years about the problems of the fishshing industry.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) summarised the basic problem. We have a finite natural resource. We have a duty to conserve that resource, although we have a duty to provide an income and a living to a group of brave people who do one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. That has been the eternal difficulty of successive Governments in the past 25 years. It would not be right to blame every problem of the fishing industry either on this Government or on the Labour Government. The problems in the fishing industry started in the early 1970s, and successive Governments have fought with great difficulty to overcome them. We must face the reality to which my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) referred a few moments ago : the fishing industry is in decline. However much we seek to create circumstances such as those outlined by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, we mislead fishermen if we hold out that some great march or rally or great quick fix, resulting from either a change in the European Community or a change of policy by my hon. Friends on the Front Bench, will somehow solve the

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problems. There is a basic dilemma--a dichotomy--which can be resolved, sadly, only by a decline in the fishing industry. It is not a decline that I want to see.

Mrs. Ewing : The hon. Gentleman has referred twice to my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond). If he had listened carefully to my hon. Friend's arguments, he would know that we are clearly saying that we seek equal treatment in the common fisheries policy. The difficulty that fishermen face, especially those in the north-east and north of Scotland, is that the common fisheries policy is not applied equally across the Community. All that we are asking for is that equality of treatment.

Mr. Brown : I know what the hon. Lady has said--I have heard every word of the debate. Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan will not be able to say that because he is not here. [Interruption.] I have simply made the point that I have been here since the debate started and have heard every word of it. Every part of the fishing industry in the United Kingdom--indeed, in the whole European Community--faces problems. I urge the hon. Lady to recognise that Humberside Members--I am sure that the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe will agree--feel that we are unfairly treated by the common fisheries policy and by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. We feel at a disadvantage because of the political clout that the Agriculture and Fisheries Department in Scotland seems to have.

If the hon. Member for Moray attended some of the meetings in Humberside that the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe and I regularly attend, she would realise that Humberside fishermen feel that they are more harshly treated than others.

Mrs. Ewing : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Brown : I give way for a second time.

Mrs. Ewing : I have not yet been invited to a meeting in Humberside. I reciprocate by inviting the hon. Gentleman to come to a meeting of fishermen in the north-east and north of Scotland and listen to the arguments made there. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one aspect of the Government's fisheries policy that has militated against fishermen throughout the United Kingdom is the Government's failure to adopt the same attitude to decommissioning as other countries? Decommissioning would reduce capacity in the fleet and resolve some of the problems that we face, but the Government have consistently refused to introduce a decommissioning policy such as that adopted by other EC countries.

Mr. Brown : An invitation from the hon. Lady is always an attractive proposition. She is right to say that there are problems in the fishing industry, whether in Humberside or Scotland. However, we do the debate a grave disservice if we simply say that all the problems are caused by the Government's policies. The Government have a great dilemma : they would have to face an angry House in two, three or five years if they ignored actions which should at least be considered but which, in their view, must be taken to conserve fish stocks.

Fishermen fully expect to be able to go out and fish today, tonight and tomorrow ; the Government must take

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a longer view. There is nothing right or wrong about either approach. It is entirely understandable that the fisherman expects to have the freedom to go out on his next trip. Equally, fishermen in four or five years would blame the Administration if they had failed to take the necessary conservation measures. I am sure that the hon. Member for Moray and other hon. Members who represent fishing constituencies would be the first to lay the blame at the door of the Government.

Mrs. Ewing : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Brown : I have been generous in giving way. As you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I always give way to every intervention when I have the Floor. I shall develop my argument a little further before I give way to the hon. Lady.

We may disagree with the method that the Government introduce to reconcile the dilemma to which I have referred. I have my own concerns. The hon. Member for Moray is right to mention the decommissioning scheme. I am glad that the Government have embraced the idea of a decommissioning scheme, which they previously resisted. That shows that they are very much a listening Government and that they have changed their mind.

I should like the Government to reconsider the opportunities for expanding the decommissioning scheme. I am attracted to the argument that we are dishing out hundreds of millions of pounds to pay the farmer to set aside his land, yet we do not do anything similar for fishermen. It is not fair to blame the Government or their immediate predecessors for that. Historically, fishermen have always had a raw deal on unemployment benefit, decommissioning and redundancy. I could tell the hon. Member for Moray about the battles that we have fought in Grimsby and Cleethorpes in the past 15 years to obtain some justice on redundancy payments for all the fishermen who were laid off by the fishing companies in the mid to late 1970s and the early 1980s--the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe will concur with me on that point. Now, the Grimsby Evening Telegraph is running a campaign. It has invited all local people to sign a letter to the Prime Minister asking him 15 years on to consider the case for redundancy payments for fishermen who were badly treated in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

I am the first to acknowledge that historically fishermen have been badly treated on redundancy and compensation. Decommissioning might be one way of redressing the balance.

Mrs. Ewing : Undoubtedly, the hon. Gentleman and I could keep the House up all night talking about the problems faced by crewmen and skippers alike, particularly the way in which social security legislation applies to them. I think not least of the problems created in my constituency last year during the period of the eight-day tie-up as a result of the mechanisms in the social security system.

The hon. Gentleman began by referring to conservation measures and the importance which is attached to them. All fishermen in my constituency recognise the importance of conservation measures. The hon. Gentleman went on to say that the Government were a listening Government. Yet our Scottish Fishermen's Federation made effective proposals for conservation, which lay on the table for two years. Then the Government came up with the scheme of

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the eight-day compulsory tie-up per month. That is not listening. Why cannot the Government listen to the professional advice of the fishermen on the most effective methods of conservation?

Mr. Brown : I said at the beginning of my speech that I was not as expert on fishing matters as other hon. Members. In Humberside I flow in the slipstream of the hon. Members for Great Grimsby and for Glanford and Scunthorpe. I do not profess to be an expert on the answers for the Scottish fishing industry. It looks as if the hon. Lady may yet seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and educate me and the House a little further.

I am not prepared to accept the general proposition that fishermen have had a raw deal not only this year and last year but in the past two decades. It is easy to blame Ministers. As the Conservative Member who represents the constituency next door to that of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby, I shall not forget his predecessor, Mr. Anthony Crosland. As Foreign Secretary, he negotiated in 1976 and 1977. If I wanted to make a cheap political point--which I do not--I might argue that it was thanks to Mr. Crosland selling the deep sea fishing fleets down the river to Iceland in the late 1970s that we were in the present position. But that would not get us anywhere in 1992. We must look forward and consider some of the measures which hon. Members have suggested today, many of which have merit which the Government should consider.

We must certainly do something about enforcement. There is a case for increasing the number of inspectors inside the member states of the European Community. There is also a good case for European Commission inspectors. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East pooh-poohed the idea of inspectors from one country inspecting practices in another country. However, that idea should be considered. He suggested that it would be illegal, but some work should be done by Ministers to explore that idea with their colleagues in the Council of Ministers.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) was right to make it clear to Ministers that ultimately fishing policy should be resolved by the Council of Ministers and not by the European Commission. That is the only way in which there can be any accountability to the House. He was right to make that fundamental point.

Mrs. Ewing : The Council of Ministers is the most secretive organisation in western democracy. We do not even know the agenda when fisheries policy is discussed and we do not get a full statement afterwards to tell us what happened.

Mr. Brown : That is as may be, but I know that I should rather have my hon. Friend the Minister representing my interests and those of my constituents--

Mrs. Ewing : It is not the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland who will go.

Mr. Brown : I am referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), the Minister of State, who will be handling the Fisheries Council meeting in a week or so.

When those negotiations take place, whether in public or private, I should rather that he was negotiating on behalf of this country and my constituents and those of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby than any other Commissioner, even though they were nominated by

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member states. My hon. Friend the Minister of State is a tough negotiator and he will report to the House and submit to questioning.

The basic principle outlined by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East, who opened for the Opposition, is right, but that principle appears to be under threat.

I agree with all hon. Members who have mentioned the need to phase out industrial fishing. That must be pursued with the European Community. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will use every opportunity at his disposal to do so.

Fishermen face a grim time. Sadly, there will be further contraction of the industry, but I hope that it will not result from bankruptcies. If it has to happen, I hope that it will be supported and sustained by an increased decommissioning scheme.

8.11 pm

Mr. John D. Taylor (Strangford) : I have spoken in many fishery debates during the past ten years. So often we seem to cover the same ground--total allowable catches, quotas and recently the multi-annual guidance programme ; and now we have more problems with the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill.

I have found our fisheries debates repetitive and somewhat depressing. It is no wonder that fishermen feel depressed and that they are staging demonstrations--there was one in Lochinver yesterday and one in the Forth today. That is symptomatic of the atmosphere in the fishing industry throughout the United Kingdom, and it is proof that the common fisheries policy is not working in Europe, or in the interests of the United Kingdom fishing industry.

The nation has to reconsider its position in relation to the common fisheries policy. Is it the way forward? I believe that it is not. I cannot see how Greek fishermen have anything in common with fishermen from Northern Ireland or Scotland. I cannot understand why Luxembourg is involved with the common fisheries policy when it is in the middle of Europe.

Fishing policy should be more localised in Scotland and in Northern Ireland ; that is why the common fisheries policy is not good for our fishermen. The people will not think that it is good when they watch the film of the events at Lochinver last night, and see good fish being discarded into the sea. The common fisheries policy gives the ordinary man in the street in the United Kingdom the message that the policy is a disaster for the industry, and it is a disaster for people to throw away good food.

I am closely associated with the fishing industry in Portavogie, County Down--with both the fishermen and with processing plants. I shall be brief this evening, as I have spoken so often in debates on fishing.

Reference has been made to the fact that more than 2,000 people are involved in the fishing industry in Northern Ireland and that we have more than 200 boats over 10 m in length in the industry. However, the fact that more than 10 per cent. of them are now tied up in our ports, in Kilkeel and in Portavogie, on a long-term basis, was not mentioned. They are not just tied up for a few days--they are out of work. More than 10 per cent. of our fleet is inactive due to the present decline in the fishing industry.

The comments of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris)--who has had to leave the Chamber--were music to my ears. He spoke at some length about the Hague

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preference, which has worked to the great disadvantage of Northern Ireland and of many other parts of the United Kingdom. I know that Scotland has a different point of view on that issue.

Dr. Garret FitzGerald skilfully negotiated the Hague preference on behalf of the Republic of Ireland. He pulled a fast one for southern Irish fishermen. All power to him, but the trouble is that it is damaging the fishing industry in many parts of the United Kingdom, especially fishermen in Portavogie, because it is damaging Irish Sea cod and whiting stocks.

The Minister suggested that one could ameliorate the cuts in quotas by arranging swaps. That is all very nice, but it will require skilful negotiation, and one can only swap if there is something left to swap. In the winding-up speech, I want to hear whether certain swaps are likely to be available in the coming year.

We do not yet know who will be the Republic of Ireland's Fisheries Minister. They spent more than a week counting votes in the Republic. They have finally finished counting and will now spend a few weeks forming a Government. Then a Commissioner may be appointed from Dublin to Brussels, and we shall know whom to speak to about fisheries.

When we reach that stage, I hope that the new Fisheries Minister will not be as brutal in his application of the Hague preference to Irish sea cod and whiting. If he is, it will be disastrous for the Northern Ireland fishing industry.

If the Government fail to raise the issue of the Hague preference in the present talks on the reform of the common fisheries policy, we in Northern Ireland will be very upset. I hope that, when the Minister meets his Dublin counterpart, he will make a strong case for the Hague preference not being used to damage the Northern Ireland fishing industry. That hope has been expressed by several other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley).

Unlike the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady), I do not believe that the Minister should be accompanied by a Northern Ireland Minister who might know more about the Irish sea. I think that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland knows far more about the Irish sea. Hon. Members must remember that Northern Ireland Ministers know very little about the Irish sea, because they are Members from England who come to Northern Ireland once a week.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture was a colleague of mine at the European Parliament, and served with me on the fishing sub-committee in Strasbourg. At my invitation, he came to Portavogie many years ago. He had the foresight to see that he was going to be a Minister for fisheries. He knows Portavogie harbour and was well received by the fishermen. I am not sure that he would get the same reception now, but he is always welcome in Northern Ireland. If the Minister fails to ensure that the Hague preference is not used against the interests of the Northern Ireland fishermen when he discusses the matter with the Dublin Government, I shall get involved personally. I got involved in communications with the Dublin Fisheries Minister last year, and we managed to arrange a swap for nephrops. I

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shall get involved again if I feel that the Government are letting us down. I have no hesitation about making direct contact with the Dublin Government on that issue.

I shall run quickly through some of the quotas. There has been little reference to the quota proposals for 1993, which I thought that we would debate in greater detail this evening.

I understand that it is proposed to increase the cod tonnage next year from 10,000 to 10,200. That is not dramatic, but at least it is an increase. That proposal is important to Northern Ireland, because we take 62 per cent. of the United Kingdom quota. However, we are already aware that the Hague preference would operate in a way that would result in Northern Ireland losing 873 tonnes of the cod quota. Irish sea whiting, which is of great importance to Northern Ireland, has already been mentioned in the debate. There appears to be a definite proposal to reduce the whiting catch by 35 per cent., which means that the tonnage would be reduced from 10,000 to 6,500.

Mr. Salmond : An important detail should be flushed out. In last year's debate, we talked about directed whiting fisheries. The argument was that whiting was a predatory fish and that fewer whiting would be good for the rest of the fishery. A year later, we find that the whiting quota has been reduced, but for the life of me I cannot understand how those two arguments are consistent. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can enlighten me.

Mr. Taylor : I cannot, because I do not recall any such argument in last year's debate.

Irish sea whiting is extremely important to the fishing industry of County Down. We take up about 75 per cent. of the United Kingdom quota. The tonnage reduction from 10,000 to 6,500 is a large one, but, once again, the Hague preference comes into play and, eventually, the catch could be reduced to 2,000 tonnes. I hope that the Minister will take up my points about Irish sea cod and whiting when he attends the Council of Ministers meeting to decide on the 1993 quotas.

Northern Ireland also has an interest in the quotas for Irish sea plaice and sole. Although those fish account for a small proportion of our total catch, they are important to our fishing industry, which is small in relation to that of the rest of the United Kingdom. The Minister has already spoken about swaps. It is true that we had a swapping arrangement with the Dutch on sole in the North sea. The Dutch took our plaice in the North sea, and gave us the sole that had been allocated to them in the Irish sea. Does the Minister envisage such swap arrangements continuing in the coming year ? It has been suggested that all the plaice will be allocated in the North sea and that the Dutch will therefore be unable to make a swap with Northern Ireland for sole in the Irish sea. If we lost that Dutch sole quota, major damage would be inflicted on the Northern Ireland fishing industry.

The main part of the fishing industry in Northern Ireland is devoted to nephrops. Some 45 per cent. of the earnings of our fishing industry come from prawns. I hope that the Minister will remember that some 90 per cent. of the United Kingdom quota for prawns in area 7 of the Irish sea is allocated to Northern Ireland. I hope that he will continue to ensure that we receive a large quota for prawns in the Irish sea.

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On the multi-annual guidance programme, there seems to be an argument between the Minister and other hon. Members as to what cuts are proposed. The figures have not been agreed, but there must be some clarification about that. My advice from the fishermen of Portavogie is that 24 per cent. of the Northern Irish trawler fleet will be lost over the next four years. That is serious in itself, but, at the same time, the Republic of Ireland's fleet will be allowed to increase.

The Northern Ireland fishing fleet has been hit by the Hague preference, which favours the south of Ireland, and now we find that our industry will be hit by the proposal to reduce the size of our fleet while that of the Republic will be allowed to increase. Relatively speaking, we in Northern Ireland are losing in both respects.

In the discussions on proposed cuts in the size of fleets, the Minister failed to take into consideration the special problems faced by County Down. The Hague preference was designed to deal with socio-economic problems. We suffer from such problems in County Down, which has a high rate of unemployment and few alternative means of employment. However, 2,000 good people employed in Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel will find it even more difficult in the future to compete with other fleets. The Hague preference should be reformed to take into account the special problems that beset the east and south coasts of County Down.

When our Government negotiated and agreed the reductions in the size of the United Kingdom fishing fleet, they should have recognised the special problems that exist in rural County Down. The Republic of Ireland did very well out of those negotiations. It was the only country in the EC that managed to get the Council to agree to an increase in the size of its fleet. I am amazed that it was allowed to do that, but I congratulate its negotiators on that success. The special position of the Northern Ireland fleet, which is only a few miles from the southern Irish fleet and fishes in the same sea, should have been taken into account. The British Government should have ensured that the size of the fishing fleet in County Down was likewise increased.

I look forward to the Minister's reply.

8.26 pm

Mr. Sebastian Coe (Falmouth and Camborne) : I add nothing new to the debate when I say that there are deep-seated problems throughout the United Kingdom fishing industry. If I did not appreciate fully the complexities of commercial fishing inside and outside my constituency before, I certainly do now after six months in which I have represented a fishing constituency.

Neither do I make fresh comments when I say that fishing in the North sea and the Scottish waters is very different from that in the Western approaches and the Irish sea. In fact, so great are those differences that many argue that they may as well be viewed as two separate countries. It is those geographic and oceanographic differences which make finding the right balance for the United Kingdom fishing industry as a whole so difficult.

These differences also demand a regional breadth of solution. I do not believe that that solution lies in the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill. For many fishermen in my constituency, that Bill sounds the death knell of their livelihoods. In Cornwall, it will sound the death knell not

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only for those fishermen but for many shore- based companies. One must recognise that the catching sector of the United Kingdom fishing industry is but the top of a large pyramid of associated industries, often located in areas where employment prospects are at best extremely limited.

The Bill is an escape clause which will not work as envisaged, for the many reasons which have been rehearsed today and on other occasions--the extra pressures, the risk of fishing in dangerous waters at dangerous times of the year, and the difficulty of policing regulations here and in Europe.

The key issue in my constituency is the fact that it is almost impossible to calculate accurately a days-at-sea entitlement because the majority of the local fleet is under 12 m in length and do not carry log books. Their landing tallies, which the Ministry has requested, may refer to several days at sea previously, especially for those boats fishing for shellfish. Even those who carry log books in boats over 12 m have not put in all their yearly landing data because much of the year is spent fishing for non- pressure stock species. The Ministry does not require such declarations. The paperwork will be a mess and it will be an administrative nightmare to an undermanned Ministry in which many are already uncomfortable with the rules that they are attempting to uphold at the quayside. Juggling figures is not conserving stocks. Fishermen agree that the seas are being overfished and a valuable resource wiped out. They desperately want a conservation package to be brought in, but to do so with the proposed measures and tie-ups will take to the very edge of existence their fishing livelihoods. Nor will it selectively reduce the tonnage, as scientific advice now recommends.

8.29 pm

Mr. Calum Macdonald (Western Isles) : More than one hon. Member has said today that the fishing industry has its back to the wall. That is certainly true, but it is true in different ways in different parts of the United Kingdom. Clearly, it is true for fishermen in the Falmouth area, the Western Isles and Northern Ireland, but the problems faced by fishermen differ according to the community. I have tried time and again in debates in the House to tell the Government that they cannot simply impose one solution which will work effectively throughout the United Kingdom. There is diversity in Europe's fishing industry, but an equal diversity within the United Kingdom.

Although communities in many areas rely on fishing for their livelihoods, that dependency is even more pronounced in some areas because people have no prospect of alternative employment, should the bottom fall out of the fishing industry. The Government must take that factor into account when proposing measures aimed at conservation.

I was pleased to find that point reflected in a document issued by the Commission in its review of the common fisheries policy. One of the disappointing aspects of the Minister's opening speech was his failure to take up the document's many interesting leads to issues other than the allocation of quotas. For example, throughout the document numerous references are made to social and economic implications of policies affecting the fishing industry. It showed an appreciation that the policies affect the fishing industry differently according to area.

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On page 50, the Commission says that traditional coastal fishing differs throughout the Community. In some areas, for example, fishing

"is often done part-time to supplement other traditional activities such as agriculture".

That is true for the west coast of Scotland. The Commission goes on to say that in such areas

"It is above all an exploitation of a resource close at hand in poorly developed regions offering little or no other employment or income. Its disappearance, even partial, would destroy the delicate equilibrium of the regions concerned."

I have tried to make that point time and again to the Government. In considering how to handle the fishing industry, they must appreciate that to undermine it in certain areas, notably on the west coast of Scotland and the north-west of Scotland, is to take away from those areas one of their few means of livelihood. There is then simply no alternative for the fishermen who live there. They cannot try to find a job in a different line of business in the future and their children have no hope of finding an alternative occupation because alternatives simply do not exist.

The Commission make that point emphatically in its report to the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament. It distinguishes between two zones in fishing policy :

"firstly, there are the developed and industrialized zones, with diversified activities"

where fishermen, at least in theory, have the potential of alternative activities. It describes the second type of zone as "less-developed, often rural zones, where the problem is a social one, quite possibly determining the survival or otherwise of the communities concerned, since fishing is the only activity possible for a large part of the workforce."

The document, which was drawn up by supposedly remote bureaucrats from Brussels, shows a greater awareness and perception of fishing communities' special needs in the north-west of Scotland than I have heard from any Minister in any debate in this House. Such a perception has specific consequences. Several hon. Members have already said that the multi-annual guidance programme is proving to be ineffective in its task of reducing the capacity of the fishing fleet throughout Europe. Once one appreciates the different nature of the fleet throughout the Community, one understands that it is not good enough simply to set targets on a nation state basis. One must fine-tune one's policies to a greater extent and target specifically those areas of the fishing fleet which are genuinely over capacity. It must be realised that all areas of the fleet are not equally over capacity. There is certainly over-capacity on the east coast, but not on the west coast of Scotland.

In drawing up policies to tackle the problem of over-capacity, it is essential to distinguish between those different circumstances. The Commission has recognised that. The same document, in a section called "Structure of fishing fleets", says that the Commission has recognised that the policy to date has not succeeded in restructuring fishing fleets and reducing overall capacity. It indicated the possibility of a new approach and talked about the need to identify "fleets defined separately and linked to specific stocks" and specific areas. It discusses segmenting and differentiating between national fleets so that

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"it will be possible to differentiate fishing effort reductions according to types of vessels, gear, areas, the state of stocks in the different fisheries".

The document was presented to the Council of Ministers last December and it is a great disappointment that the Government, despite the fact that they chaired the Committee of Ministers dealing with the problem, have failed to take up the Commission's initiative.

Another issue of relevance to the common fisheries policy is that of the north of Scotland box--the Shetland box. Various changes were proposed to the Shetland box by the fishermen of the Shetland district. I should have liked that box to be further extended--I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) does not agree with me. There is a great need to extend that box to cover much more of the west coast fishing grounds. I fear that, as a consequence of current trends in British and Community fishing fleets towards capacity aggregation and flagships operating in British waters, more and more large vessels of more than 26 m will be operating in British waters west of the Hebrides and on the west coast of Scotland. We must establish some control and safeguards to prevent that.

The mid-term review also presented us with an opportunity to tackle the problem. The Commission recognised that. Page 77 of its commission to the Council of Ministers states :

"the present arrangements for the Shetland area must be maintained and the concept could be extended to other regions under the conditions of Article 7 Indeed, the box system offers a way of regulating access to resources which has not been fully utilised up to now."

The Commission was absolutely right. In that passage, it extended an invitation to the Government to push for a wider box, but unfortunately the Government have failed to take up that invitation. We have recently been told that, for some reason, access to the shellfish stocks around the region of St. Kilda and the Flannan isles, and off the north-west of the Butt of Lewis, within the six to 12-mile band has been given to French fishermen. The French have not yet used that access. It is not clear why they were ever given it--they are generally excluded from taking advantage of shellfish stocks within the six to 12-mile band. To prevent the possibility of the French using that access in future, will the Government ask the Council of Ministers to remove that right of access on the basis that the French fishermen have not used it? That would prevent the matter from becoming a problem in future. I should be grateful if the Minister could comment on that in his wind-up speech.

Mention has also been made today of the recent blockade at Lochinver. There are two lessons to be drawn from that episode. The first has already been mentioned : the need for better monitoring of French landings in France. There is a suspicion within the fishing community that the reason why the French boats still have some quota left is simply that they have been able to evade the existing quota restrictions by landing their fish in France. I fully support the suggestion made by the Labour Front Bench team that a European Community monitoring force should be set up to regulate restrictions throughout the Community.

The second lesson to be learnt from the episode has not yet been mentioned today, although I raised it in Committee on the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill : the need to assist and promote British participation in the potential fisheries of the far west waters of Scotland--the deep

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waters out to the west of the Hebrides. It is those fisheries that the French fishermen have mainly been exploiting. There is now an opportunity for Britsih fishermen to do so as well. However, if they are to be able to do so, they will need assistance from the Government to promote voyages of exploration to test the potential in those regions. European Community money exists to assist with such voyages. In Committee I suggested that the Government should urgently consider the possibility of providing such assistance to British fishermen. The Minister had an open mind and said that he would explore the subject, but I have heard nothing from him. Will he comment on that in his wind-up speech?

A small but profoundly important issue relates to the support from Highlands and Islands Enterprise for new boats to be built in the highlands of Scotland. I would appreciate it if the Minister would consult with his colleague from the Scottish Office on that subject. I understand that support for the construction of new boats in the highlands and islands-- made available through Highlands and Islands Enterprise--has been withdrawn. Those new boats would not add to the capacity of the fleet, as they would be financed only if they resulted in reduced capacity through capacity aggregation. The withdrawal of that support for new Scottish boats does not mean that there will be no new boats or capacity aggregation. However, it means that the new boats are likely to be not Scottish but Spanish flagships taking advantage of the opportunities which arise as older skippers want to sell licences. Unless the Scottish skippers can be assisted in buying licences, Spanish skippers will move in.

Mrs. Ray Michie (Argyll and Bute) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the withdrawal of support means that some of the new boats to which he referred might not now be built at Campbeltown shipyard, which is on the verge of closure? That will be a singular blow to that region. If such yards do not have the opportunity to build those boats, it will be a double blow for the whole Highlands region.

Mr. Macdonald : I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. It is absurd for the Government to tolerate a situation in which Scottish boats do not come on to the scene in the highlands and islands, thus providing employment for Scottish fishermen and boatbuilders, but instead flagships come from Panama and elsewhere to exploit the Scottish fisheries. I ask the Minister to refer to that in the wind-up speech. Although it is a small and localised issue, primarily affecting the highlands and islands, it is also an important matter which reflects on the way the Government approach these problems.

8.49 pm

Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) : I speak for the small fishing industry in my constituency--for the men in the cobble boats of 12 m or less. At least 40 of them fish out of the harbour in my constituency. Yesterday morning they went to my constituency office. Unfortunately, I was in London, but my secretary took the message about their great fears for their livelihoods and their families. I was faxed their message, which I was asked to relay to the Minister in this debate.

Fishing has never been one of my strongest subjects--I have been a miner all my life. It might be said that

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