House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Dec 1992

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fishermen work on top of the North sea whereas I work under it, but I knew many fishermen when they were still at school and I shall try tonight to deliver their message to the Minister.

My local fishermen are worried about the allocation of white fish quotas ; they say that it is unfair. That has been said already many times in this debate. These small inshore 12 m boats fish for other species for part of the year and can catch cod only at the end of the year, but the quotas are all eaten up now and the men of Blyth harbour cannot go fishing. What is more, we are approaching Christmas.

The larger vessels that fish for white fish all the year round have already used up their allocation of the quota, thereby preventing small fishing boats from fishing for white fish, so their crews have to sign on the dole, just before Christmas. They feel strongly that this bad conservation management is causing unnecessary hardship for good crews, and that this activity threatens the very existence of the small-boat, inshore fishing industry. That industry is honourable, and it has existed off the north- east coast for many years. My constituents are worried because, they say, they are the ones being put out of business even though they do not catch much fish. A few months ago I asked them how much they caught in these little cobble boats of 10 or 12 m. The answer was, only a couple of boxes of cod a day--an amount bringing in between £40 and £50 a day. Generally, there are two crewmen to a vessel.

Inshore fishermen have always recognised the need for conservation ; they understand that their future depends on it. I like that attitude. These men know that conservation must be practised, and they say so. These are seasonal fishermen, fishing for certain species at certain times of the year. They would argue that the best time for this fishing is the winter-- that people should not fish in April, in the spring, when the fish are spawning. Of course, at the end of the year, in the winter months, the quotas have been exhausted, so the men cannot go fishing just when they reckon the best time to fish has arrived.

These men have only been in the industry all their lives, so I suppose that, like the miners, they know nothing! Some civil servant or Minister in Whitehall, on the other hand, knows it all, and forces measures on them.

Do the Government intend to turn the management of quotas over to the producer organisations? If so, surely the POs should be duty bound to accept all fishing boats into membership. Some of these small boats have applied for membership and been turned down ; the POs seem to be becoming a closed shop. Why cannot boats of 12 m or less become members of the POs? I need an answer to that question to be able to reply to the inshore fishermen of my constituency. The POs have stressed that they do not feel that joining would be a satisfactory solution to the problems experienced by the owners of small boats. I do not know what that means, but I think that it means that small boat owners are being made scapegoats for the fishing industry. They will be put out to work and will have to sell their boats and sign on the dole, while the big boats continue to fish. I do not like that idea. There is room enough in the North sea for all. Conservation is rightly on the minds of inshore fishermen. I have heard stories about black fish and paper fish and about fiddles that have gone on in the North sea, so the Minister should take a close look at what is happening. I do not want fishermen to be divided by these measures. I

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hope that all the fishermen of Scotland and elsewhere will work together, but I have a funny feeling that policies are being followed to divide the fishermen so as to get rid of some of them from the North sea.

The inshore fishermen believe that they are the ones who will be sacrificed. I hope that the Minister has some answers for them this evening.

8.57 pm

Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North) : The Minister and his colleagues do a splendid job in Europe. The problems that we face with fishing are not the fault of my hon. Friend or his colleagues in their negotiations. The problem lies with the structures under which they have to negotiate. They are another example of the failures of the Community. It is probably timely that we should be debating this subject today, since the Edinburgh meeting takes place this week. Scotland's fishermen quite properly feel that they were led up the garden path when they entered the Community. Things have not turned out as they would have hoped or wished.

The drift netting of salmon off the north-east coast of England has an effect on my constituency. Indeed, it has a substantial impact on its economic well-being. Scotland banned the practice many years ago and my constituents look to the Government to do exactly the same in the north- east of England and to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure that that comes about. If that is not done, we run the risk of closing down some of the most profitable tourist-related activity that we enjoy throughout the central belt and the north of Scotland. 8.58 pm

Mr. Nick Ainger (Pembroke) : I shall speak for six minutes and no more because I know that others wish to contribute to the debate. I received a letter and press release from the Minister on 2 December. In talking about the multi-annual guidance programme targets, he said :

"These are fair targets which strike a realistic balance between what is needed to conserve fish stocks and what can be achieved through the Government's decommissioning and effort controlled policies. Corresponding programmes for other Member states will ensure that the burden of adjustment is equitably shared." I refer the Minister to what is proposed for other member states. The United Kingdom is expected to take a 19 per cent. cut in gross registered tonnage but it is proposed that the French take only an 8 per cent. cut. For the Spanish it will be 4 per cent. while the Irish will enjoy an increase of 1 per cent. If that is an equitable distribution, I am sitting on a massive majority and not one of 755. I shall talk about two issues that directly affect my constituency. The first is quota hoppers. My constituency office is in Milford Haven, which used to be the hake capital of the world. It was possible to walk across the port on the decks of trawlers. At present, there are only three such vessels working out of Milford that are owned and controlled by Welshmen. The others are controlled by Spanish interests. The 20 per cent. of the people of Milford who are unemployed are naturally angry when every day they see tonnes of fish--British quota fish--being landed from supposedly

British-registered vessels that are owned by Spanish interests. They see them loaded by the Spanish

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crews of the "British" ships into Spanish lorries driven by Spanish lorry drivers. No jobs are created on the dockside by the loss, as I see it, of the British quota, yet still no action has been taken by the Government.

The hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) said that the British Government can do nothing because of the European Community. The European Court has made a decision on European law. We need to change that law and the accompanying regulations so that the court can make a ruling on quota hoppers. Everyone accepts that. It is generally agreed that the practices that are taking place are unacceptable. The situation is becoming worse and worse. My colleagues in Scotland fear that what is happening in the waters of south-west England, Wales and the Irish sea will happen in their waters.

In the Minister's press release, and in his letter to virtually every hon. Member who is interested in fishing, he states that the MAGP cut for the United Kingdom of 19 per cent. will be achieved by a 10.5 per cent. cut in tonnage and engine power as a result of decommissioning, and that the remaining 8.5 per cent. will be achieved by a reduction in effort.

I assume that the Minister has read the report of the House of Lords Select Committee on the common fisheries policy, which responds to the Government's proposal to invest a paltry £25 million in a three-year decommissioning programme. The report states : "The Committee accept that £25 million is not even enough to prevent the fleet from expanding ; four or five times that amount is now needed to make up for the lack of a decommissioning scheme in the UK during the last decade. The scheme which was announced must regretfully be described as too little too late."

If the Select Committee's opinion is correct and the British fleet will continue to expand even though we have a £25 million decommissioning programme, how will the Minister achieve his MAGP cut of 19 per cent.? Will there be more and more tie-up time? Will there be more and more effort control measures? As the hon. Gentleman knows, in their present form they are entirely unacceptable to the industry.

In my final minute I shall talk about the proposed total allowable catches in the Irish sea, the Bristol channel and off the south-east of Ireland. They are entirely unacceptable. If the Minister thinks that they represent an equitable distribution that takes account of the problems that the industry faces throughout Europe, I must tell him that that view is not shared in Milford.

A 12 per cent. cut is proposed for whiting and 22 per cent. for plaice in the Irish sea. There is to be a 6 per cent. cut for plaice in the Bristol channel and south-east Ireland areas. For sole, there is to be a 32 per cent. cut in the Irish sea and 15 per cent. in the Bristol channel and south-east Ireland areas. There is to be a 53 per cent. cut for anglerfish in the whole of sector 7.

At the same time as those cuts are implemented, Irish capacity is to be increased. Because of the Hague preference agreement, presumably Irish quotas will remain the same or even increase. Welsh fishermen fish in the same waters as Irish fishermen and they cannot accept the Minister's agreement to allow Irish quotas to remain the same or to increase while they and English fishermen have to make massive cuts.

The Minister will be negotiating again in Europe next week. I hope that he will come back with a better package.

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9.5 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) for truncating his speech to allow me a few minutes in the debate. I fully realise the importance of the fishing industry to his community.

I want to say something about whales--who does not today? I tabled an amendment, which was not selected, which called on the Government "to withhold its consent to a new EC fish prices agreement until such time as the Community draws up a comprehensive policy for the protection of whales, dolphins and other cetaceans in EC waters and makes adherence to such a policy a pre-requisite for enlargement of the Community."

I realise that the EC fisheries policy recognises the needs of the ecosystem within the marine environment and I welcome that. I also welcome the Government's strong support for the International Whaling Commission ban on commercial whaling. However, that worldwide ban is now under threat from a number of countries--regrettably and specifically Norway. Norway is seeking greater access to EC fishing waters and also entry to the European Community. In no circumstances should either application be given even passing consideration while Norway expresses the intention to recommence commercial whaling in 1993.

The Norwegians are aiming for the minke whales in the north Atlantic. They say that the stocks have now reached a level at which they can be safely harvested. Of course, "harvested" is a euphemism for slaughter because the Norwegians--and, indeed, any other nation--have had nothing to do with husbanding stocks. If the stock of minke whales in the north Atlantic has increased, it is because all other nations have adhered to the IWC moratorium on commercial whaling. Why should Norway alone benefit from the self-denying ordinance of other countries? If they took the same attitude as Norway, the stock of minke whales would again be imperilled. A Greenpeace petition with 500,000 signatures has been presented to the Prime Minister at No. 10 Downing street. It was delivered by Members of Parliament representing the three main parties in the House. That coincided with the visit of the Norwegian Prime Minister, Mrs. Brundtland, who was in this country specifically to discuss a possible application by Norway to join the EC.

I draw the attention of the House to early-day motion 536, which has been signed by more than 160 hon. Members from both sides of the House. It effectively expresses not only how I and the majority of--perhaps all Members of Parliament feel, but how vast numbers of our citizens feel about commercial whaling and, specifically, Norway's attitude.

I have sent a letter to Mrs. Brundtland on behalf of Members of Parliament, especially those who delivered the petition to No. 10, in which I make it quite clear that we find her Government's proposal wholly unacceptable. Norway has never fully respected the IWC ban ; indeed, it has killed more than 900 whales since the ban was introduced in 1986. This summer alone, despite the IWC's request not to do so, Norwegian whalers killed 95 minke whales for so-called scientific research. Where does the meat of whales that are slaughtered in the so-called interests of science go? It goes to Tokyo, because whale meat is purchased at great expense for some of the best restaurants and diners in Japan. The Japanese are involved in commercial whaling.

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Mr. Harris : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is the debate about fish or mammals?

Mr. Banks : The hon. Gentleman makes a good point that is fairly obvious to us all--whales are not fish but mammals. However, whales are regarded in the same way as fish stocks. We talk about whaling fishing, and that is the whole point. Of course we know the difference. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in saying that it is unacceptable.

I support the Government's attitude to the IWC ban. Norway hopes to join the Community yet is intent on taking up commercial whaling in defiance of public opinion throughout the world. I hope that when the Minister meets his Norwegian counterparts he will make the feelings of the House very clear.

9.10 pm

Mr. Elliot Morley (Glanford and Scunthorpe) : This has been a good debate, in which more than 20 hon. Members have spoken with some knowledge and depth of feeling about the crisis facing the fishing industy which, sadly, it has been facing for some years. It is depressing that many of the arguments advanced tonight were reruns of previous debates, and the industry faces many problems that it has faced for a number of years. In many cases, the problems are getting worse rather than better.

The Minister will have heard that there is to be a national demonstration in Edinburgh on Friday. I intend to be there, on behalf of the Opposition, to join with the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations, which are organising the rally and speaking on behalf of the fishing industry. It is a shame that those organisations are having to do so, because they are not negative ; they have not been critical or argued against the Government for the sake of doing so. They have often made constructive proposals to deal with the problems that the industry faces. I am only sorry that the Ministry has not adopted their proposals more often.

I invite all hon. Members to read carefully the amendment tabled by the official Opposition. It calls for British interests to be protected in the current mid-term fisheries policy review. It asks for structural changes to be applied equally to all fishing fleets throughout the European Community. It asks the Minister to reject measures which discriminate unfairly against British fishermen, to maintain the principle of relative stability and to ensure that our fishermen have the same right as others to an effective decommissioning scheme.

Hon. Members will have heard the criticism of the£25 million that the Government have made available. I explain to hon. Members who may not be aware that it is not £25 million of Government money but the total amount available taking into account the European Community's 70 per cent. contribution. It is a small sum--the Minister may wince, but he knows that I am correct--that the Government are putting into the pot for a decommissioning scheme. I endorse the Lords report which made it clear that it is not an effective or adequate amount.

Mr. Curry : I ask the hon. Gentleman the question that I asked the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang). He must have an idea of what would be an

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effective amount. What would be the amount of money, up front, that the Opposition would be prepared to spend on a decommissioning scheme?

Mr. Morley : The answer depends on what one would want to achieve from such a scheme. One would have to consider the existing fleet size when a scheme was introduced and what one wanted to achieve in terms of capacity units and horsepower, but certainly there would have to be a more adequate scheme. Hon Members are inviting me to give a figure which Conservative central office can double, treble or multiply by the Chancellor's banker's card overdraft and then quote back at us later. If they think that I am going to fall into that trap, they are sadly mistaken. Seriously, we need a more adequate scheme. It should be drawn up in consultation with the industry, with due account being taken of the fleet. I greatly fear that by the time a Labour Administration come to consider the issue, there will be far fewer fishing boats left to restructure.

I am very concerned about the multi-annual guidance programme, and my fear is shared by many hon. Members who have spoken today. I always worry when the Government talk about "a great victory" and "a good deal" that it might not be so good as it appears. Let us consider what the Government have achieved. When one considers the reduction overall in the European Community, omitting Greece which operates primarily in the Mediterranean, it is clear that we have the second largest reduction of all the Community fleets. The Minister mentioned a reduction of 19 per cent. In summing up, perhaps he will say whether that figure includes the roll-over figure from the capacity that we need to reduce or whether we have to add further reductions to it. I should appreciate clarification of that point.

Mr. Curry : I have already given the House clarification--there is no need to wait until I wind up the debate. The answer is that it does.

Mr. Morley : I asked for that clarification because I have seen conflicting figures, but I accept the Minister's assurance. I should also appreciate the Minister's comments on the fact that as part of the great MAGP deal our fishermen will have to remeasure their fishing vessels. That will involve costs of between £700 and £1,200 per vessel. Is that regarded as fair and equitable or, indeed, necessary?

I should also appreciate clarification of one of the worst proposals from Europe. After dealing with the motion, we are to discuss the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, under which it is intended to reduce effort in line with the MAGP of about 8 per cent. in order to meet our obligations under that programme. If the European Community introduces conservation measures which also include effort reduction by linking it with total allowable catches, will British fishermen face a double whammy? Will they have to have a days-in-port restriction to meet the effort reduction under the MAGP and also days-in-port restrictions to meet conservation targets? I should be grateful if the Minister would clarify that point so that British fishermen will know what they face--days-in-port restrictions as a result of Government policy, as a result of Community policy, or as a result of both.

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Some hon. Members referred to the fact that under the MAGP the Irish fleet has been allowed to increase, and it is also arguing for an increase under the Hague preference. As the Minister will be aware, the Irish Republic fleet did not take up its full allocation, so it seems strange that it can make a case for an extra fish allocation under the Hague preference.

The Spanish have the largest fleets in the European Community, but they face a reduction of only 4.5 per cent. It is not as though there has not been a problem with the Spanish fishing fleet : the southern hake quota, which is a major quota for the Spanish, has been cut to just 10 per cent. of the allocation last year. That makes one wonder exactly where those excess Spanish vessels will go, and where they will direct their attention. Why has the largest fleet in Europe come away with a reduction of only 4.5 per cent. while we have to face a reduction of 19 per cent ? That has all happened while the Minister has been president of the Fisheries Council.

We have heard of the quota hoppers, and have often discussed them. Another growing problem is caused by the sale of licences from British vessels, both in England and in Scotland, to people from other countries. When the Government operate a policy based on a fixation with applying the free market to everyone and everything, no matter how inappropriate, problems will inevitably be caused by other fishing fleets, which are given a great deal more support and stability by their Governments and are therefore in a stronger financial position, coming in and buying up licences from British fishing boats whose owners want to get out of the industry. Unless we have a policy to deal with that, the inevitable consequence will be that some fishing ports in this country will become dominated by foreign vessels.

We have already heard, in an excellent contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger), what happens when foreign vessels unload on to foreign lorries which take fish away to foreign ports, with little direct employment input for British people and little chance for the young people of our fishing communities to follow in their parents' footsteps.

We need a proper decommissioning scheme, which could be used to buy the licences so that they return to the sovereign nation state. They could then be reallocated, or used as part of the effort control and conservation policy. At the moment, no one is satisfied : the licences are passing into foreign hands, our conservation effort is not being helped, and our fishing ports are being seriously affected.

While we are dealing with the so-called quota hoppers, will the Minister tell us the position regarding the compensation claim by the people who, because of the slack wording of the Merchant Shipping Act, won their court case and are now demanding considerable compensation from the British Government? Where will the compensation come from? Will it come from the fisheries budget? What kind of figure are we talking about? I should appreciate any information that the Minister has.

As the Minister knows, during negotiations on the European Economic Area agreement Norway gave increased access to some of its cod stocks. Unfortunately, most of that went to the Iberian fleet, and we did not do well out of it. I understand that Norway is now seeking compensation from CFP fishing waters for that access. Will the Minister resist that idea? I feel that Norway got off lightly in terms of the waters allocated to EC fleets, especially ours, for membership of the EEA. I take the

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point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) : if Norway ignores international laws and flouts international conventions, it should not expect to be treated sympathetically in relation to its application to join the EC or in other negotiations.

Subsidiarity is a buzz word in European negotiations these days. Although we agree that each nation state ought to have as much control over its own affairs as possible, in view of the Government's record I am worried that our fishing fleet may face restrictions which other European fishing fleets do not face--as, indeed, it already does with the days-at-sea restrictions. Will the Minister confirm that no other EC member state has days-in-port restrictions of the type that our fishermen have to put up with? If we are to have restrictions and conservation measures, they should be fair and equitable and our fishing fleet should not be put at a disadvantage compared with the fleets of other member states.

The question of the EC licensing policy has been raised in the mid-term review. The concept of a European Community fishing licence is a step forward. The Minister said that he regarded licensing as part of effort control. Would he care to expand on that when he sums up? Does he envisage introducing restrictions in terms of the banding and grouping of vessel types and the way in which licences can be used? Does he envisage tighter control of the allocation of licences in this country or in the EC generally? Will he undertake that, if such restrictions are imposed as a form of effort control, our country will not once again suffer adversely in comparison with other member states?

The principle of relative stability--an important element of any discussion of the Community--has been referred to. I acknowledge the Minister's assurances on that point, and I accept that he is arguing that the principle of relative stability should be maintained. Any efforts that he makes to achieve those objectives have the whole-hearted support of the Opposition.

The mid-term review recommends that the Hague preference should be maintained. We have no argument with the maintenance of the Hague preference--

Mr. Austin Mitchell : Yes, we have.

Mr. Morley : --although it has disadvantages for certain parts of the country, as my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby has made only too clear. We should work towards a state of affairs in which the Hague preference, which should be regarded as a safety net, is not implemented and in which we have suitable stocks to which all our fishing ports have fair access.

The Shetland box is also to be maintained in its present form. I know the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby on that. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) made the fair point, however, that in its present form the box has not placed restrictions on other vessels--certainly not on those from the Humberside fleet. There is an argument for the use of biological boxes as a conservation tool ; they should not be used as a way of giving unfair advantage to a particular group. Would the Minister be willing to argue for the extension of the boxes principle, on a permanent and a temporary basis, to protect spawning stocks, sensitive areas and fishing grounds?

Mr. Salmond : I have some reasonably friendly fire for the hon. Gentleman. He is speaking with some confidence

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about the latest proposals for the revision of the common fisheries policy. Does he have them in his possession? Have they been made available to him by the Minister? If not, how can he be so confident about what they contain?

Mr. Morley : I am dealing only with the proposals in the papers made available to European Standing Committee A, which the hon. Gentleman has seen. I have seen no other papers or proposals apart from those debated by hon. Members who attended the sitting of that Committee. All the proposals were outlined in detail in that document. Perhaps it will be reviewed and revised. I remember the Minister saying that the wording was confused and somewhat inaccurate, so a further document may well be brought forward, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have seen no document other than what was laid before us. I am not aware of any other document, although I noted and listened with interest to what the hon. Gentleman said.

A careful consideration of regional policy as it applies to fisheries is needed. I hope that the Minister will consider European regional aid for communities in which fishing is of major importance. I refer not only to small isolated communities and fishing ports but to areas which depend heavily on fish processing, such as Aberdeen, Grimsby and Hull. Given the pressures and problems that the fishing industry faces--particularly if the proposals for still more days-at-sea restrictions go forward--it is important that we have an aid package which takes into account the communities and the crews and their families. Even with decommissioning, which I support as part of a package, the bulk of the help goes to the owner of the boat. We also need to consider crews, communities and families. I hope that the Minister will argue that assistance should be given to those communities via the relevant structural funds.

In respect of regionalism, we also heard about small boats which operate in inshore waters. I welcome the fact that the mid-term review proposes that the six-mile and 12-mile limits are to be kept, but I hope that the Minister will also consider small vessels which operate inshore close to their home ports and use highly selective gear. In that respect, I am thinking of the Cornish handliners, of longliners in general and of small boats which take small catches and are very selective, with next to no by- catch. In many cases, those very small boats suffer as a result of policies designed to catch much larger boats taking a much larger catch. As part of a regional policy, and recognising that those small boats operate a very environmentally friendly method of fishing, the very small quota taken by those boats should receive special consideration. The news about total allowable catches is no worse than the news last year. There are proposals for a significant increase in the haddock quota. I appreciate that the Community and the Minister must be guided by scientific advice, but there is a problem when quotas seem to change dramatically from drastic cuts one year to drastic expansion the next. The Minister may argue that the past two years have been very good spawning years, particularly for haddock, but I hope that he will ensure that the Commission's scientific advice is reliable and the basis for a manageable quota so that we avoid difficulty.

As the Minister is aware, the Commission produced a consultation document on discards. I hope that more work will be done on discards, particularly in relation to the introduction of various kinds of conservation gear. Hon. Members will be aware of the arguments in favour of square mesh panels and the pioneering work carried out

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on that in this country. Square mesh panels have been implemented unilaterally by the United Kingdom and I hope that the Minister, as president of the Fisheries Council, will argue for them to be included throughout the Community fleet as part of an effort to reduce discards.

There are some welcome steps in the mid-term review in respect of enforcement. I support the idea of multi-national teams and I was a little surprised at the comments of the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor). If we argue about equality of enforcement, there is a good argument for a multi-national team entering member states to ensure that they are abiding by the regulations agreed within the Community. The best way to do that would be to have an impartial spot check by inspectors who have no connection with that country.

There may well be an argument for establishing a European agency directly responsible for that work to ensure that the rules are applied. I see the hon. Member for Southend, East wincing at that suggestion, and I appreciate that it would be yet another agency, but we are members of the Community and we have certain rules. It is important that those rules are enforced fairly in every country. My colleagues have referred to satellite surveillance. There is an argument for that, but we would need a pilot study on it. The Minister will recall that I said in Committee that it might be possible to consider linking satellite surveillance to GPS satellite navigation systems. That would save many fishermen a great deal of money. The system would be more attractive to fishermen if it provided details of a boat's position and if it could be incorporated in satellite navigation systems towards which many fishermen are moving. We must also stress the safety implications of that equipment. There are advantages for fishing boats, as they would be tracked at all times. If the signal stopped, the appropriate national emergency services could be alerted.

Data transfer has also been considered in depth. In relation to new technology, it is a good idea to discuss the possibility in the future of electronic data transfer, perhaps even by signalling data to a central recording station where there could be an immediate update on catch position and what boats have been doing. That is a good idea, but one must take into account the cost implications for fishermen and the actual equipment, which soon becomes outdated. I would not want fishermen to be put under an unfair burden. I hope that the Minister will speak to his hon. Friends in the Department of Trade and Industry and alert some of the electronics companies that on the horizon is a potentially big order for the equipment. I hope that British electronic companies will bid for contracts for the provision of such equipment, which I suspect will be installed on EC fleets.

The Minister knows my views on industrial fishing. He knows that the Labour party has argued for many years for the phasing out of industrial fishing. I welcome the emphasis in the mid-term review that we need to examine fishing in the global context and take into account the whole marine ecosystem, and I accept that. Where does that leave industrial fishing? In Committee, the Minister told us to wait for the report. I have to agree with previous comments that the report appears to be a whitewash, in the

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sense that it merely says that we need more research into industrial fishing whereas I believe that we need action on industrial fishing.

During the summer, on my family holiday, I took the opportunity to go round Esbjerg and look at the fishmeal plants and their trawlers. One could say that I was sniffing around. I also visited Esbjerg fishing museum, which was excellent. In Denmark, I found that the support for industrial fishing is not universal. Even in the national fishing museum, there were critical comments about the role of industrial fishing and what it was doing to fish stocks in the North sea. So the Danes cannot claim unanimous support for industrial fishing, which is primarily used for pig food. The time has come to take some firm action on the matter.

I appreciate what the Minister said about research and the fact that it is not clear either way. There is such a thing as the precautionary principle. I hope that the Minister will argue for that principle. I refer to third country access.

I wonder whether the Minister could comment on the Falkland Islands position, which the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) has briefly mentioned. Is it true that the European Community has given 100 per cent. financial support to a joint venture between Spain and Argentina to develop the hake fisheries around the Falkland Islands? Such aid is normally 50 per cent. Does that support mean that a large Spanish fleet has registered as Argentinian, is operating around the Falklands, will have unrestricted access to EC markets, and will have a deterimental effect on the licensed income for the Falkland Islands? That licencsed income has cut the overseas development aid payments from British taxpayers to the Falkland Islanders, whose income will now be severely dented. Was financial support given to the joint venture while the British Minister was president of the Fisheries Council? I would certainly appreciate the Minister's comments on that.

The need for conservation is real. Sometimes one has to take tough decisions, and sometimes those decisions must be implemented. The Labour party recognises and supports tough decisions on conservation if science dictates such decisions and if the measures are fairly applied. The root of the problem that we are discussing is that for more than three years we have argued for an effective decommissioning scheme but failure to implement that scheme has caused all the problems that we have been talking about. There must be a package including decommissioning as well as conservation gear, licensing enforcement and conservation management.

Fishermen are facing severe hardship. They feel discriminated against and ignored, and that they are not being treated fairly. We lack a structured and coherent policy. The industry has suffered as a result of a crisis management approach. Our amendment outlines the basic principles which our fishermen want to see. I hope that hon. Members from fishing ports will support their fishermen by backing our amendment. I hope that the Minister will also answer my questions. Above all, I hope that the Government will think again about their whole fisheries policy and recognise the awful consequences of a poorly considered and crisis management approach.

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9.39 pm

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Curry) : This has been an extremely reflective debate. Ifear that I may not be able to answer all the points raised because the time available for my reply has been somewhat squeezed. Several hon. Members asked me to talk to the industry. I look forward to meeting the leaders of the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations at 12 o'clock on Friday to discuss the forthcoming meeting of the Fisheries Council. We have a rendezvous with the NFFO for an open-house discussion on the whole conservation package in the new year. Of course, matters such as the sqauare mesh panel, to which my hon. Friends referred, will be discussed. A couple of weeks ago, I had representatives of the industry from Hull in my office to discuss their problems. The deep sea Norwegian fisheries are particularly important to them. On behalf of Grimsby they said how pleased they were to see such a large Government grant going into the port of Grimsby. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) would not forgive me if I failed to mention that. My hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough (Mr. Sykes) recently brought a delegation from Whitby to see me. I have received a delegation from fishermen who fish in the waters around the mouth of the Thames. I have visited Fleetwood. I have met the fish processors, to whom import duties are of particular importance. I inform the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) that I have met representatives of the industry which cans dolphin-friendly tuna. So I have been fairly active in the past few weeks in meeting representatives of the industry. It is a constant communication and it will continue. There is no question of there being some terrible freeze on relationships. I have discussed the matters with the industry. My officials are in virtually daily contact on one issue or another and inevitably that will continue.

I recognise that the Irish sea presents particular difficulties to Northern Ireland fishermen. The Northern Ireland Members who spoke asked me to make sure that their voices were heard in the European Council discussions. If those three hon. Members are willing, I shall meet them separately before the next meeting of the Council to discuss matters relating to the Irish sea and Northern Irish fisheries. I have spoken to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and he thinks that it is an extremely good idea.

I extend that invitation to those hon. Members. I shall ask my office to get in touch with them to make arrangements to have detailed discussions. I warn them that on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday I shall be at a meeting of the Agriculture Council in Brussels. But we shall have that meeting because I recognise the particular sensitivity of the waters in which Northern Ireland fishermen have to fish.

The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) will be aware that the Prime Minister raised the matter of the Norwegian fisheries with the Norwegian Prime Minister when she was in the United Kingdom recently. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's points will have been widely heard. I know how deeply he feels about the matter. Many people share his sentiments about Norwegian activities.

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We usually have a pretty constructive debate across the Dispatch Boxes--I am flattering the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) ; it is a pity that he is not listening, because I do not do it often. On occasions such as this we have a sensible debate. There is a large measure of agreement between many of us. There always tends to be a bipartisan quality to discussions on the European Community. I should like to see that reasserted. It is helpful if I can go to Brussels and say, "The whole House believes this. I cannot sell this measure to the House. This is what I must deliver to the House." That is important because we are subject to a closer form of supervision and control than almost anyone who sits around the Council table. Other member states are beginning to acknowledge that that is the case.

The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe referred to the Spanish demand for compensation. That has gone back to the European Court of Justice for clarification. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that I should prefer not to be drawn into those legal waters.

The Labour party has kept its plans for decommissioning one of the most closely guarded secrets in the fishing industry. We went through a whole Bill this year without the secret getting out. We have gone through two Opposition spokesmen without the secret getting out. I am sure that we shall continue to go around that subject. At least we have put our money on the table--£25 million over three years. All we know is that Labour does not think that it is enough. Opposition Members think that the House of Lords is right in saying that there should be four or five times that much, but they will not say how much they will put on the table, and it is the amount of money that counts.

Mr. Ainger : In my short contribution to the debate I said that if we are right, if the Select Committee on European Legislation is right and the Minister is wrong, how will he deliver the multi-annual guidance programme ?

Mr. Curry : I shall come to the MAGP in a minute, but the answer is simple. We shall deliver it by a combination of decommissioning and aggregation proposals.

We have delivered some of the percentage by cleaning up the register and we shall deliver the rest through the day-at-sea controls. I outlined how that will work during debate on the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill.

The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) asked a detailed question about how the MAGP would work. It is complicated and concerns vessel capacity units. The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the term. I shall write to him with details of how it will work because frankly it would sound like algebra if I produced it at the Dispatch Box.

There is the old canard about 70 per cent. Community money, but because of the Fontainebleau mechanism and the United Kingdom abatement it is three quarters British money. I have not detected any hon. Member advising the Prime Minister that he should not fight for the maintenance of the British abatement during the negotiations on the Community budget that he will undertake during the next few days.

The problem with the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) is that its central part states that we must not do anything that no one else does, not even in conservation. If the amendment

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were accepted, I could not do many of the things that the industry has asked me to do unilaterally. The industry has told me that it thinks that the minimum carapace size for lobsters is too small and should be increased. It has demanded an increase in the minimum landing size for whiting because the Community has taken it too low. I could not do any of those things. Twin-rig trawls for prawns are mechanisms that the fishermen in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) want outlawed. Under the terms of the amendment we could not do that. I do not understand the last part of the amendment, which deals with the money in the Community budget, and I shall not recommend that anyone should vote for something that I do not understand.

I am confident that we shall see off the Community's effort reduction proposals, which would almost exclusively affect the British fleet. Again, they affect areas 4 and 6. The proposals would be wider and would take in about 800 vessels. Part of the definition is for vessels that do not catch any cod or haddock. The formulation is curious, we have been engaged in intense discussions and I believe that those proposals will not be pursued.

I recognise all the sensitivities of the Irish issue. Essentially, the Irish demanded more quotas, which would mean revising the keys of relative stability. We shall not revise the keys. The Irish will not get more quota, which is their key demand.

It is true that, under the MAGP, because the Irish do not catch their existing capacity, they have been able to sustain a demand that they should have a lighter regime than other countries. That goes back to 1982, when the quotas were distributed. However, the key is to get more fish. No one in the Community to whom I have spoken is willing to allow more fish to be caught, and I have spoken to many people on the subject because I know how sensitive the issue is. Mr. Salmond rose --

Mr. Curry : If the hon. Gentleman will permit me, I shall not give way. I have been left little time to wind up and I want to cover as many matters as possible. The hon. Gentleman knows that I am not normally reticent in giving way.

The remarks of the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe on technical measures made a lot of sense. We are open to suggestions and I am willing to pursue his detailed suggestions on conservation measures.

I shall outline what I believe we will be able to achieve in the so-called revision of the common fisheries policy, or the next 10 years. I have put it in those terms because the final agreement has not been reached. Negotiations have reached a certain point. It seems that we will be able to achieve relative stability, as it is defined at the moment, which is similar to what I outlined in the Scrutiny Committee--the existing Shetland box. I know that the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald) would have liked the box to be fatter, wider and larger, but many people--some are sitting next to him--do not like the box at all and the best bet seemed to us to be to maintain it as it was. We think that we have achieved that. We have preserved the zero to six and the six to 12-mile limit for

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another 12 years. That covers the exclusive zone, particularly the inner zone for coastal fisheries, which is important.

There is the possibility of multi-annual and multi-species TACs where they make sense. The proposed revision of the fisheries policy retains that concept. The use of such TACs does not become obligatory, but they may be used at the discretion of Ministers if they believe that a particular stock warrants that treatment as opposed to the current annual practice. The decisions will be kept at the level of the Council of Ministers ; in other words, the idea that they should be floated off to some sort of management committee or a Commission-chaired body has disappeared.

Agreement has also been reached on the idea that all vessels should have a licensing system. There is some argument over the extent to which freshwater fisheries and non-commercial fisheries should be included. It embraces the Hague preference, but it does not embrace Spanish accession, because that is subject to a separate report, which, under the treaty of accession, must be delivered by the end of this year for further consideration.

I recognise the problems associated with the Hague preference. I know that for every winner there is a loser and that, sometimes, there seem to be two losers. On balance, as has been said, we estimate that the Hague preference is in favour of the United Kingdom. Therefore, we will continue to seek its application. I recognise the importance of swaps where the Hague preference applies--and, sometimes, where it does not. Swaps are becoming more difficult as quotas diminish in some fisheries and fisheries take their full quota. If my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Mr. Porter) were here, he would no doubt be inveighing against the swaps with the Dutch that we have arranged in previous years.

We must take a view, on balance, as to what is in favour of the fisheries when the time comes to take that view. We are particularly sensitive to the problems in the Irish sea and the swaps that would help to eke out a difficult fishery in that sea. We shall pursue those swaps where it appears to us that the balance of interest is in Britain's favour.

Mr. Salmond rose --

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