House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Dec 1992

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"entail great hardship for prospective applicants who contact us daily about the demands of caring for a person with Alzheimer's disease".

The society wants clarification in regard to people over working age. We know that the successor body will not accept such people : that much is already clear, and it is seen as discrimination against elderly people of high dependency. Will people accepted by the new agency continue to receive help when they are above working age? Will the definition of "working age" be the same for men and women--that is, between 16 and 65?

What is to happen in cases where the ILF is asked to help between now and April 1993? Delays in the Benefits Agency's processing of claims for the higher rates of disability living allowance and attendance allowance have effectively disqualified many people claiming from the ILF. How is it proposed to help those victims of the Government's own failure? Again, what procedures are there for consulting carers and their voluntary groups about the new arrangements?

As Ministers know, the Spinal Injuries Association is very anxious for local authorities to be given powers to make direct payments to severely disabled people to make their own arrangements for personal assistance. Such payments give them choice and control over their own lives ; at the same time, good-quality services are provided with minimal bureaucracy, thus giving value for money. Will the local authorities that now make direct payments to severely disabled people be allowed to continue doing so? Direct payments provide all that the Government claim they want to see from their community care policy ; so why are Ministers opposing the call for statutory powers to enable local authorities to make such payments to severely disabled people? While welcoming the Government's acceptance that the successor body must be one that will make direct payments to individual disabled people, Peter Large, than whom no one has more experience of the ILF's work, states that lack of information about it leaves severely disabled people

"seriously worried about their futures".

Will the successor body be run by the same staff as those who now run the ILF?

The fund now makes awards averaging £105 a week to more than 18,000 severely disabled people. The budget for 1992-93 is £97 million. It is understood that the budget next year--1993-94--for carrying the existing ILF's case load will be £117 million. Given the current backlog of 6,500 applications, will £117 million be sufficient to ensure that any existing beneficiary whose condition deteriorates, or whose costs increase, will be able to receive increased payments to cover the increased costs from the successor body to the ILF? What will happen if the £117 million is insufficient? Will beneficiaries whose costs increase have to wait for other beneficiaries to die in order to secure increased payments from the fund to cover their higher costs? By any standards, that would be a total scandal.

I understand from a parliamentary reply given on 2 December that the budget for the successor body is only £4 million. Can this be correct? How will severely disabled people secure payments from the new agency, and how many will it help? Will anyone be able to insist that a local authority makes a contribution? After April 1993, when a local authority assesses a person's ability to pay for personal assistance, will the mobility allowance, the DLA care component and the severe disability allowance be

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taken into account? Will the money given to local authorities in consequence of the changes to the ILF be specially earmarked for the purpose of financing independent living, as it would have been by the ILF?

This issue, and the questions I have posed, are of considerable importance to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House. I implore the Lord President not to leave the severely disabled people on whose behalf I appeal to him still worrying about their futures when the House rises for the Christmas recess.

5.59 pm

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) : I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to make a brief contribution to this important Christmas Adjournment debate.

I wish to direct my remarks to recent developments in Macclesfield health authority. I am delighted to see the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) in her place. She certainly has an interest in what I am about to say because her health authority is also involved. I know of her interest because she has signed one of the early-day motions that I have tabled, and I know that she strongly supports the sentiments that I have expressed on behalf of the people of Macclesfield about the unfortunate developments that are being initiated by the chairman of the regional health authority, Sir Donald Wilson.

In July, Sir Donald Wilson gave me a firm assurance, in the presence of the then chairman of the Macclesfield health authority, Mr. Peter Hayes--who has now taken over as chairman of the East Cheshire NHS trust--that there would be no merger of the Macclesfield and Crewe health authorities unless the communities and the two authorities were in favour of such a step.

I took that assurance at face value. What has happened subsequently? Sir Donald Wilson is well known to me and to those who come from Merseyside. He is a man who always has a hidden agenda and who will never share it with those who represent the people of the area. He is determined, come hell or high water, to get his way, riding roughshod over the people of the area, their health provision and health services.

I suspect that, because I no longer serve on the Select Committee on Health, Sir Donald has felt it appropriate to strike. Macclesfield has a wealth of talent--numerous able business people who for many years have given immense service to the national health service in a voluntary or other capacity. But in recent times, Sir Donald has brought in from outside the health authority area a chairman--County Councillor Simon Cussons--who, quite by chance, happens to be the leader of the Conservative group on Cheshire county council. Mr. Cussons has no connection at all with Macclesfield, except that, for a relatively short period, he was chairman of the family health services authority for the whole of Cheshire, which clearly involves my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich, as well as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton).

Sir Donald had appointed by the Government a man who has no knowledge or experience of Macclesfield, and the method of that appointment left much to be desired. I was not advised of the appointment until some days after it had taken place. I may say that I regard it as most discourteous not to notify the hon. Member concerned of

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those who are to be appointed until some days after the appointment has been made. I say that not least because the House knows of my considerable interest in health matters. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich--if not the Minister--knows of my deep involvement in health provision and care in my constituency throughout my 21 years as Member of Parliament for Macclesfield.

I repeat that the method of Mr. Cusson's appointment left a great deal to be desired. The acting chairman of the health authority, Mrs. Morven Sowerbutts, who has given many years of devoted and committed service to Macclesfield, was unseated without even being notified of the fact. She arrived to chair a selection panel to select the chief executive of the authority, only to be told that a new chairman had been appointed. Without any knowledge of the area, Mr. Cussons immediately decided to chair the meeting, even though Mrs. Morven Sowerbutts had been with the authority for many years, had studied all the papers, and was fully prepared to take the meeting and would have done an excellent job.

As I said, I have tabled an early-day motion expressing my concern about the appointment of Mr. Cussons. I emphasise that I have no argument with Mr. Cussons himself. I merely feel that he has been used by Sir Donald Wilson to deprive Macclesfield of the opportunity to have a chairman who can stand up for the interests of the area and its people.

I am supported in the views that I have expressed by the Secretary of State herself, who has admitted that the way in which Mrs. Morven Sowerbutts was treated was thoroughly unsatisfactory. My right hon. Friend wrote to me :

"Turning to the way in which Mrs. Sowerbutts was informed of the appointment of Mr. Cussons as chairman of Macclesfield HA, I can only agree that someone who has given such excellent service to the NHS deserved better."

She did indeed deserve better. I am concerned that Mrs. Sowerbutts should continue to serve on the health authority, although she will clearly have to review her position in the light of the treatment that she has received.

That is not the worst of the matter. We now come to the appointment of Mrs. Chris Hannah as chief executive of the health authority, the circumstances of which are extremely interesting. Before Mrs. Hannah was appointed chief executive of Macclesfield health authority, she happened to be the personnel manager of the Mersey regional health authority--one of Sir Donald Wilson's chosen people. Did she get the job in a way that was fair and above board? Oh no, she did not. She was responsible for advertising the position of chief executive of Macclesfield health authority. She was the one to whom applications came. Having sorted them, she no doubt handed them to Mr. Geoffrey Scaife, the regional general manager, another hatchet man for Sir Donald Wilson--who, interestingly, believed that the number of applications to be considered by Macclesfield health authority was less than adequate, and that their quality was rather weak. What did Mr. Scaife do? He went to the personnel manager, Mrs. Chris Hannah, and said, "Wouldn't you like to put your name forward for the position?" The day before the interviews were to take place in Macclesfield,

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Mrs. Chris Hannah's name was put on the list. Again, I am supported in my concern by the Secretary of State, who said in her letter to me :

"I appreciate why the circumstances of the appointment led you to raise this matter. Adding Mrs. Hannah's name to the shortlist the day before the interview, after she had been involved in the shortlisting for the post, was bound to lead to questions about the fairness of the exercise."

Does the House think that what happened should have been tolerated? My right hon. Friend's letter dated 7 December accepts that best practice was not followed and that the appointment had the appearance of being unfair. I would go further : it had the appearance of being corrupt, politically opportunistic and profoundly unethical. But I have not finished. Who is Mrs. Chris Hannah? She happens to be the daughter-in-law of Mr. Dan Hannah, the chairman of Warrington health authority, and not only that but the daughter-in-law of Mr. Dan Hannah who was appointed by Sir Donald Wilson as the chairman of the Wirral and Cheshire purchasing agency with which Macclesfield will be doing business. The health authority is now the purchasing unit--the purchaser--so it will be doing business with the Wirral and Cheshire purchasing agency. There clearly must be a definite conflict of interest there.

The interests of the national health service and the people of Macclesfield have been subordinated by those Machiavellian developments to the career ambitions of self-serving administrators and a dictatorial and domineering regional authority chairman whose time, I believe, is up. His sell-by date has passed. He is now 71. He has been in the position for 11 years. He is riding roughshod over the people of my area, and is no longer serving the health needs of the area. If anything, he is working against the best interests of the reforms of the health service in Mersey, and particularly in my authority. Despite what he said to me in July and subsequently, he has a dogmatic desire to merge, amalgamate and otherwise to neuter any health authority that is run, as Macclesfield has been for so long, by local people with a commitment to and a real interest in the local community.

To say a little more about the hidden agenda, Sir Donald Wilson gave me the assurance in July that there would be no merger, but the position of chief executive is not, as the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich knows--if she wishes to intervene, I shall be happy to give way--as the chief executive of the Macclesfield health authority ; it is a joint appointment. It is the chief executive of Macclesfield and Crewe, as a result of which the authorities are building for the merger which Sir Donald has told me will not take place unless the communities and the health authorities want it. If he can take over the health authority and annex it with his own placemen and placewomen, he will at least be able to carry the health authority with him, but he will not carry the community.

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich) : Is that not a continuing pattern? Has not Sir Donald done that before? In fact, is it not the habit that people actually set up trusts and then themselves take over the jobs? This is not the first time that Sir Donald has connived at appointments which are clearly, in the smallest sense of the word, political. Is it not time that we had an open investigation of the whole working of that regional health authority?

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Mr. Winterton : I would most certainly be happy to support that. I have been increasingly concerned over recent times about what is happening in Mersey. It has apparently become the individual fiefdom of Sir Donald Wilson. I believe that he even frightens Ministers.

Mr. Alfred Morris : I have been following the hon. Gentleman very closely. He has made deeply disturbing disclosures to the House, but am not clear what solution he proposes. Is he asking for a public inquiry urgently to consider what sounds like a considerable scandal?

Mr. Winterton : I believe that it is an absolute scandal, and a scandal which is not serving the best interests of the people whom I represent or those in the constituencies adjoining my own. I sought to do things the right way. As soon as the matter occurred, I contacted the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State referred me to the Minister for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney). He was not able to see me for some days. I was rather disappointed about that, but he at last saw me and gave me generously of his time when I outlined my concern in detail. He took almost a further fortnight to investigate the allegations, as a result of which I then received the letter from the Secretary of State. The matter was clearly so serious that the Minister for Health believed that the matter should be dealt with by the Secretary of State. I have quoted in part the letter that was sent to me by the Secretary of State herself in reply to the concern that I expressed. I am deeply concerned that she has not felt able to intervene in this scandalous matter--she should.

Although I am most unhappy about the appointment of Simon Cussons--that can be excused and explained, although I do not accept the explanation--but the appointment of that chief executive cannot be allowed to go ahead. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris) asked me what I was seeking. I am seeking to have the appointment not confirmed, and I am looking for the apppintment to be readvertised and a proper ethical selection procedure adopted to chose a new chief executive for Macclesfield. I am not saying that Mrs. Chris Hannah cannot again have her name put in on her behalf if she is not prepared to put it in herself and not prepared to respond to the advertisement which went out in the first instance.

Finally, I have sought to raise this matter in the most responsible way. When that responsible way is blocked and no action is taken, I have no alternative but to bring the matter before the House, initially through the early-day motions that I have tabled. Perhaps I should also mention early- day motion 1044 that was subsequently tabled by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Loyden). That motion has been signed by a large number of hon. Members from Merseyside. Clearly, they have considered the action that I have taken as reflecting their worry about the way in which Sir Donald Wilson is blustering his way through health matters in the Mersey region. I do not say it very easily--I am choosing to say it here, I agree--but the man is a bully not only to his staff but to those who are appointed to health authorities in his region. It is a very sad state of affairs when one man can do so much damage within an area. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will give me an assurance that the Government will seek to discuss the matter with Sir Donald Wilson and with

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the chairman of the Macclesfield health authority, County Councillor Simon Cussons, have the appointment of Mrs. Chris Hannah annulled--not confirmed--ensure that arrangements are made to readvertise the position, and have a proper ethical procedure for the selection of a chief executive for the Macclesfield health authority.

I do not make those comments easily. I have sought to work with Sir Donald Wilson. I have sought to work with Ministers in the Department of Health, and I am sure that they will admit that. I have always gone to them prior to taking action such as I am taking on the Floor of the House. The matter is of such importance that it had to be put to the House to try to bring additional pressure to get action so that the people of my area will know that democracy still has some value in this country. I want an assurance from my right hon. Friend that the appointment will be rescinded, that it will not be confirmed, and that a new selection procedure will be allowed to go ahead and fresh advertising undertaken, so that we will know that we have the best candidate, not the one who is most suitable to Sir Donald Wilson.

I make a final plea. I know that it is expecting rather too much of my right hon. Friend, but I mean it. In the past, Sir Donald has done some good work, but he has run out of time and he is now counter-productive to the best interests of health care and to the reforms which are so dear to the Government of the day. I am committed to serving my constituents, and I am today reflecting the concern that they have expressed to me. I am speaking not only for myself but on behalf of the chairman of the Macclesfield community health council and the council as a whole, which has written to the local health authority saying that it is strongly opposed to the merger of the two authorities.

That is, perhaps, an indication that Sir Donald Wilson is seeking to ride roughshod over people and to roll them into the dirt to get his own way, whatever the arguments of the issue. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to give me some assurance about this matter when he replies.

6.19 pm

Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber) : The House has been riveted by a tale of Byzantine intrigue and nepotism in Macclesfield. I even forgive the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) for saying "finally" three times in the past five minutes. Obviously, I cannot speak about his problems, but I promise the hon. Gentleman that I shall sign his early-day motion. When he was deposed from the chairmanship of the Select Committee on Health, I took that as a sign that the one thing the Government did not like about those Committees was a robust, firm and vigorous criticism of their policies.

I should like to discuss Bosnia, which has already been raised by the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack). The part of the Prime Minister's statement on the Edinburgh summit that referred to the situation in Bosnia was inadequate, as was his response to specific questions about that region.

I should be in favour of delaying the Adjournment of the House so that we could at least have a debate on Bosnia. I accept that that might be difficult to arrange, but

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the least to which we should have a right is a statement tomorrow on why direct action is still ruled out. I believe that that action is essential.

The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South mentioned a meeting with the Bosnian Foreign Minister, Mr. Silajdzic, in Edinburgh on Saturday. Mr. Silajdzic also gave a lengthy interview to The Herald on Saturday in which he said :

"My God. My God. Anybody with the smallest intelligence can see there has to be intervention. It should have happened months ago. Please listen to me. They have already killed 100,000 of my countrymen And yet still they say we must talk, talk, talk, and the slaughter is only just starting. What must I say? What must I do? I keep travelling all over Europe. To speak to leaders. I go to the USA I speak to everyone. To John Major at the London conference. That was three months ago and even though every accord has been broken they still do nothing."

That is what the man at the centre of the situation believes. I, too, believe that we must act.

The Ministry of Defence, official governmental and European Community line is that intervention is impossible. On the radio this morning, the Secretary of State for Defence repeated the same things that he has said before--that intervention would involve an intolerably large number of troops. In tonight's edition of the Evening Standard , in an article headed "Ashdown escapes in mortar bombing", the Secretary of State says :

"The reality is that if the UN wanted to intervene in a military sense it would have to contemplate a commitment for many years involving perhaps, more than 100,000 troops. The likelihood is of very large numbers of casualties, and with no certainty that the war would be brought to an end."

That is the official line. That article also quotes from the American Vice- President-elect, Al Gore, who says that more should be done to enforce the flying ban. He is directly quoted as saying : "The resistance and reluctance that has been coming from our European allies I frankly find hard to understand."

On the radio this morning, the Secretary of State was pressed to respond to that charge, and he did not make a good one. The only thing he said was that it was all very well for Senator Al Gore to say that when there were no American troops in Bosnia. There are no British troops in Somalia, as far as I know, but that does not mean that we are not giving warm support to what the Americans are doing there. We should bear in mind that it is inevitable that the Americans will say to the Europeans that America will not be our nanny all the time. It is inevitable that they believe that we must do some things ourselves and that it is our responsibility in the first instance to respond to the situation in Bosnia.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the British soldiers now in former Yugoslavia, including those of the Cheshire and Staffordshire Regiments, are being issued with notices of termination of their contracts with the British Army? Does he agree that that hardly seems a sensible way in which to treat British regiments?

Sir Russell Johnston : I take note of what the hon. Lady has said, as has, I am sure, the Leader of the House. I hope that he will respond to that point.

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Wider questions arise about the defence review, which is obviously affected by the demands put upon us in former Yugoslavia, but, if hon. Members will forgive me, I shall not enter into that discussion now.

The argument against intervention is that it would require an enormous number of troops. Those who argue against intervention often cite what happened to the Germans in the second world war--the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South also touched on that. Some people have said that 30 German divisions were deployed in Yugoslavia during the war, but I believe that, at the maximum, there were seven. Certainly there were more divisions in Yugoslavia when the Germans were retreating from Greece, but during the occupation there were just seven. One should remember that those divisions dealt with all of Yugoslavia, not just Bosnia. One should also remember that every man's hands were turned against the Germans--when they were not turned against each other.

Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North) : That was not very often.

Sir Russell Johnston : No, there is no doubt that every man's hands were turned against the Germans.

What did the Germans lack? First, they did not have any helicopters ; if they had, I am quite sure that, considering the efficiency of the German army, they would have sorted out Tito in double quick time. Secondly, the Germans did not have modern sophisticated weapons, such as heat-seeking weapons, or modern sophisticated aircraft. To make comparisons with the German occupation is unrealistic. A year ago in a letter to The Times I argued that we should have used air power on the Serbs as they were encircling Osijek. A year later, the argument in favour of air power is becoming more difficult because things are much messier, but I still think that it stands. Air power could be used in Sarajevo, which is a bowl aurrounded by clearly definable military targets. It could also be used to deal with the advancing Bosnian Serbs in the northern part of Bosnia. The use of air power would have not only a military effect on the Bosnian Serbs but an enormous psychological effect, because it would demonstrate that the Europeans, or the west, will not allow the Serbian attack to go on any longer. One should also remember that because of the alliance between the Croats and the Muslims, one would have to deal with the Bosnian Serbs alone. At the moment we should aim for a ceasefire--the one thing that endless talks have failed to produce.

The line taken by the new Yugoslavia, if I can call it that--Serbia and Montenegro--is that it has fulfilled all the United Nations demands set out in resolution 752. It has produced a note to that effect, stating :

"The last 92 Yugoslav soldiers were withdrawn on 19 June 1992" from Bosnia. It goes on to say that no military interference has taken place since.

I was informed at the weekend of aerial photographs showing quite large numbers of tanks crossing from new Yugoslavia into Bosnia. Is any information available about that? One presumes that there is continual surveillance by American satellites. Given the political argument that is raging, it is important that people know the facts ; there is no security reason for concealing such

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matters. The effect of air strikes would be considerable, and if there were military intervention on the ground, the demand would be far less than has been suggested.

Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley wrote a long article in The Independent on Sunday in which he spoke of some

"30,000 troops plus naval and air support."

I am not a military expert, but as a highly respected senior British general, his views should be taken into account.

I object to the repeated suggestion that this is a civil war. An advertisement to that effect on behalf of the new Yugoslavia appeared in, I think, The Independent, referring to the Yugoslav civil war. In Bosnia, we are talking not about a civil war but about the activities of one group against both the others. In the context of Yugoslavia as a whole, this has not been civil war. The Foreign Minister of Bosnia admits that there have been atrocities on both sides--not just the Serbs have been guilty of atrocities. He said : "there have been atrocities on both sides, but what do I expect? Kill a man's son, then rape his wife and he is no longer a man. You have stolen his humanity. There is a difference, you know, between active and reactive crime."

That is an interesting statement : the difference between active and reactive crime. The contention in this conflict has been that, although horrible things have been done by both sides, the main weight has been the continual aggressive action by the Bosnian Serbs in Bosnia, which has produced the horrible prison camps and the allegations--which have been confirmed, or surely the summit in Edinburgh would not have referred to them--of rape camps. The weight of responsibility clearly rests on the one side.

As the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South said, a threat exists to Kosovo and Macedonia, which should have been recognised by the summit. The fact that Greece is able to stop this and simultaneously break the sanctions embargoes by supplying oil should not have been permitted by other Community countries. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Jeddah conference, which said that it expected some action by the 15th, which is tomorrow.

Mr. Cormack : Of January.

Sir Russell Johnston : I am sorry ; I meant January. It is a generous time scale, but it is also a short time. [Interruption.] I thought that the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) wanted to intervene, but she was merely doing natural things ; I am sorry.

What is happening in Bosnia is terrible and it is getting steadily worse. The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South is right to fear that it might produce an extraordinary explosion among Muslims in other parts of the world. A serious British Muslim asked me, "How would the west respond if the Turks took things into their own hands and unilaterally took out the guns around Sarajevo?" What could I say? That risk exists. The least the House should do is debate these matters before we rise.

6.34 pm

Mr. William Powell (Corby) : I make no apology for returning to the subject of Bosnia, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) and the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) spoke. One must agree with the hon. Gentleman's references to the terrible events in Bosnia.

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The subject was raised in the Christmas Adjournment debate a year ago by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) and I recall commenting on the terrible seiges at Osijek and Vukovar. It was bad enough then. Perhaps it was predictable that it would get worse, but the reality of how much worse it has become was forcefully struck home in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South. He rightly said that there is every chance, unless good sense prevails, that in a year's time we may be dealing with what he described as a holocaust--very much worse than even the terrible events that are unfolding before us.

I am glad to say that, notwithstanding the terrible reports that have emerged from the former Yugoslavia, our Government have not been quite as inactive as is sometimes suggested. I am far from sanguine about how successful active military intervention would be. It is easy for us, without having to confront the reality of the terrain and conflict in Yugoslavia, to forecast how simple it would be to resolve the matter, but surely we have enough experience of Northern Ireland to realise that military intervention does not necessarily solve problems as easily as those who enter into such engagements might imagine. We have surely enough experience of Northern Ireland to know that the difficulties of reconciling what appear to outsiders to be irreconcilable divisions are considerable.

I hope that the House will not allow itself to be talked too easily into believing how easy a military solution for Yugoslavia might be. I am glad that this summer and autumn my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and members of the Government have responded actively to many of the reports.

I want to talk principally about war crimes. War crimes are war crimes, and although the events that are occurring in Yugoslavia can easily be overlooked by many people in the horrid rush of extra events that pile one on top of another, it lies with us to assert some fundamental moral principles. The fundamental moral principle that we must assert more than any other is that these crimes against humanity are outlawed under international law. We should send a message to every single person in Yugoslavia who is committing crimes against humanity or who may do so in the weeks and months ahead that their names are being taken and their crimes catalogued and that, if it is possible for them to be brought to account and stand trial before a tribunal, that is exactly the fate which will befall them. The civilised international community will have details of their names, the allegations made against them and evidence of the outrages that have been perpetrated. If those people seek to travel abroad, they will be arrested when they arrive at the frontiers of civilised countries. There will be no hiding place for them.

One issue about which I feel most strongly is that too many people may have allowed their moral senses to become numbed to Yugoslavia and have overlooked the fact that crimes are crimes however they are committed. The evidence is accumulating. Sir John Thompson went to Yugoslavia and compiled a report in late summer this year ; my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister presided over the London conference ; and the Conference on Security and Co -operation in Europe was asked to examine whether there was evidence on which people might be prosecuted.

A special rapporteur, the former Prime Minister of Poland, Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki, was appointed. He investigated the issue of human rights between 21 and 26

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August and his conclusions were published in a United Nations document on 3 September this year. The House will bear it in mind that we are dealing with a man of considerable distinction. His main conclusions were that massive and grave violation of human rights were occurring throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina and that such violations were being perpetrated by all parties, but, in describing what was happening to the Muslim population, he used the phrase "particularly tragic". He also said that the violence was being tolerated and even encouraged by the responsible authorities. He said that there was an immediate need for concerted action. The report was available at the London conference.

In moderate but nevertheless very clear terms, that man of distinction was making it perfectly plain that crimes against humanity were being committed. Such crimes are outlawed under international law, but were being encouraged by persons in responsible positions. That is unacceptable. Mr. Mazowiecki went on to say that the heavy weaponry on the territories of Bosnia and Herzegovina should immediately be neutralised and placed under the supervision of the United Nations protection force, and that the United Nations should continue to call on the competent authorities to abandon the policy of ethnic cleansing in all its forms, a policy which has caused so much outrage in the rest of the world. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South that the initiatives must come above all else from the United Nations. If that is not possible for any reason, the CSCE also has a leading role to play. The report also stated that the United Nations should without delay issue a peremptory warning to the authorities controlling the different parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina that, with respect to their duty to safeguard the security of civilian populations, they may, in accordance with the norm and standards of international law, be brought to justice, for not only the direct perpetration but the toleration of acts of atrocity, violence and other violations of human rights.

Sir Russell Johnston : I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he referred specifically to Mazowiecki's suggestion of putting heavy weapons under the control of the United Nations. How is that to be done, other than by some form of military intervention? How are war criminals to be brought to court unless we bring about the cessation of hostilities? I raised the issue of war crimes in a debate on 16 November, but the Government made no response.

Mr. Powell : I shall say something in due course about the trial of those responsible for war crimes, because the main burden of my remarks involves the establishment of a tribunal to deal with such matters.

At the London conference it was decided to send a party of what can only be described as three wise men, although one turned out to be a lady, to investigate further the matters which were raised by Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki. On the initiative of the United Kingdom they asked Ambassador Correl, the chief legal adviser to the Swedish Foreign Office, to go to Croatia to investigate further. He selected Ambassador Turk of Austria and Ambassador Thune of Norway to go with him. They were in Croatia from 30 September to 5 October. They concluded that there were numerous reports of atrocities

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against unarmed civilians as well as the practice of ethnic cleansing in Croatia and, that, while such reports could be attributed to both parties to the conflict, it appeared that the scale and gravity of the crimes committed by the Yugoslav national army, the Serbian paramilitary groups and the police forces in the Knim authorities were by far the most serious.

They also stated that they had received sufficient evidence to establish a legal basis for international prosecution, that an expert committee should be convened immediately to arrange a system for the collection of information, that an expert committee should be formed to prepare a treaty establishing an ad hoc tribunal to hear the allegations of crimes and that an international forensic expert group should be sent immediately to investigate the evidence of mass graves. If that is not completed before the coming winter, there is a real danger that the evidence itself might be destroyed because of the extraordinarily low temperatures which can be experienced in that region, as my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South mentioned.

That report from the three rapporteurs led by Ambassador Correl from Sweden was available in October. The matter was then handed to the United Nations. Of course, we are aware that the United Nations passed resolution 780 on 6 October. It established an expert group to collect and analyse the information submitted to it with a view to providing the Secretary-General of the United Nations with its conclusions on the evidence of grave breaches of the Geneva convention and other violations of international humanitarian law in the former Yugoslavia.

Five people were appointed to examine the issue. Fortunately for the world, one of those five was none other than the redoubtable Professor M. Cherif Bassiouni, of De Paul university in Chicago, who is recognised throughout the world as a leading authority on international law and who is the author of the standard textbook about crimes against humanity which was recently published on all continents.

Unfortunately, no budget was given to the five men and there were no satisfactory conditions for them to carry out their work. I do not expect my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council and the Leader of the House of Commons to coment in detail this evening, but I should be grateful if he would draw my remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, from whom I should like to know in due course the state of the financial assistance provided to the five men, how many staff they will have and what opportunities they are being given.

I am told by the redoubtable Professor Bassiouni that the group has met only once. In other words, although the world community recognises that something is very wrong and that something must be done, efforts to put right the problems are so far desperately inadequate. That must now change. The message must go out that all those responsible for crimes against humanity in Yugoslavia can expect to have to account for themselves not only in the celestial heavens to which they, like the rest of us, will go in due course, but in this world.

What is now required is the establishment under international authority of an ad hoc tribunal to set about the task of collecting the evidence and ensuring that it is possible to place on trial those responsible for the most outrageous criminal acts. If possible, that should be done

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under the authority of the United Nations. The United Nations should be asked to move not some time well into next year, but before Christmas.

If it is not possible because of the internal workings of the UN--I know that a number of people are concerned about the attitude of the People's Republic of China in this respect--for such action to be taken under the authority of the UN, it should be taken under the authority of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. I know that the CSCE is concerned about whether its authority might be undermined by an unsuccessful attempt to intervene in this way, but now is a time when we simply must be bold. What is happening is too wrong and such wrong cannot be allowed to prevail.

I welcome the fact that Dame Anne Warburton is going out to Yugoslavia to investigate the terrible news we have heard about the rape camps, which my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South mentioned. The story that appeared in The Times today seemed simply too appalling to be true, but all of us know that it may well be true. Such atrocities cannot be allowed to prevail.

I have asked again and again in the House for an international court or international tribunal to deal with international crimes against humanity. If ever there was a case for the world community establishing such a tribunal, this is the case.

I raised the matter with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 27 October. I asked him to persuade his colleagues in the Government to adopt a much

"more constructive approach towards establishing such permanent machinery"

for the trial of such crimes.

My right hon. Friend replied :

"I am certainly content to give my hon. Friend that assurance."--[ Official Report, 27 October 1992 ; Vol. 212, c. 862.]

I welcome that reply. I am convinced that our Government are trying to make some progress on the matter, although I do not underestimate how difficult it is to secure the agreement of the others who must be involved.

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