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Mr. Cormack : My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. If the international community is to will those ends, it must also will the means by which to bring the people concerned to trial.

Mr. Powell : Indeed, that is the case. It is perfectly possible to proceed. There is a draft convention which was discussed by the General Assembly of the United Nations in the autumn. Our country, on behalf of the European Community and the sixth committee, gave a most positive statement in October about the European Community's intent. It is perfectly possible for us to proceed quite quickly. The draft exists. It would be possible to table any necessary amendments, to debate them and to decide on them quickly if there were a will. I believe that there is a growing will in the Government to make some progress. I want to encourage the Government to go further. Above all else, I want everyone in the House and in the country yet again to assert that what is happening is wrong, to say that it cannot be allowed to prevail and to say that the civilised thing to do is to try to bring to justice, if not now, then as soon as we can, those who carry responsibility for the outrages.

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6.52 pm

Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Corby (Mr. Powell) in discussing the troubles of the former Yugoslavia, but I, too, want to raise a matter of considerable importance before the House rises for the Christmas recess. Last Friday, my constituency and much of south Wales were shocked by the announcement by Marconi that it was to close its remaining factory in Newport, with the loss of more than 400 jobs. That was a shattering blow to the town and to the surrounding area. The workers there have nowhere else to go.

I want the House to be clear that the works is not what might be called a doll's eye factory. There are many in south Wales which were established to try to compensate for the loss of jobs in coal mining and in steel. Marconi Underwater Systems Ltd., to give the company its official title, employs many highly skilled design engineers. In October, the company announced the closure of its Corporation road factory, with the loss of more than 100 jobs. The works formerly employed 700 people, but it had been progressively run down. Now the second factory is to close, making a total of more than 500 jobs lost, many of them highly skilled. There is, of course, the multiplier effect, which brings the figure to approximately 1,500 when one takes into consideration the ancillary concerns linked to and dependent on the two factories.

We know that the name "Marconi" is merely a trade name. The company is really the General Electric Company Ltd., GEC, which is presided over by the well-known predator, Lord Weinstock. The Spytty road factory in Newport opened approximately 17 years ago and it is very modern. It is well situated because it is close to the M4, to the dual carriageway and to motorway links to Birmingham and the midlands. Until three years ago, the factory was part of the Plessey empire ; but for many years, the company was pursued by Lord Weinstock, who was most anxious to take it over.

With several colleagues, I worked with Sir John Clarke, the then chairman of Plessey, and his executive team. When the first GEC bid was made, it was warded off. On the second occasion, some three years ago, Lord Weinstock's attempt was successful. By 14 September 1989, GEC owned 76 per cent. of the Plessey shares. The takeover was heralded as the dawn of a new era. It was to be rationalisation, from which all manner of benefits were supposed to flow.

The outcome, as I said, was rather different and both factories are now to close. All that the highly trained, highly skilled labour force have got is a Christmas redundancy package. The works is quickly to be run down from March 1993, with the gates finally closing in September.

From all reports, it is a poor redundancy package. The pay-out will be the state minimum. The closure procedure and the dates which I have mentioned apparently have that factor very much in mind. There has been concern locally about the way in which the closure announcement was made. The workers first heard that the factory was to close on the television news on the night of Thursday 10 December. It was as if the management were allowing the media to do their dirty work for them.

I can confirm at first hand the botched way in which the matter was handled by the company. On Saturday 12 December, I received a letter, dated 14 December, from a

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Mr. M. J. Shaw who was referred to as the divisional director sonar, Marconi Underwater Systems Ltd. The letter told me that the closure announcement was to be made to the staff on Monday 14 December and that there was to be the eventual loss of all 400 jobs. What a way for a firm of this size, with an international reputation to uphold, to carry on. Is it any wonder that the workers are expressing anger and astonishment?

I appreciate the changed circumstances of the past few years, with the cut in defence procurement following the end of east-west confrontation and the virtual disintegration of the Soviet Union. There is now a crying need to reorganise the defence industry for peaceful production. One would have thought that GEC was in an ideal position to play a major part in that kind of development. According to an article by Andrew Lorenz in the Sunday Times on 6 December, Lord Weinstock is quoted as saying that he has £1.8 billion to invest. That is profit generated by the efforts of the employees. I contrast that massive surplus with the mean, parsimonious attitude which the company seems to be adopting towards its workpeople, who are now considered surplus to requirements.

With all those millions of pounds in GEC's coffers ready for investment, the company is said to be in preliminary discussions about becoming a partner in power station projects in Indonesia and southern Europe and in power station and road schemes in China. That kind of investment will not help to save jobs in that factory in Newport.

Lord Weinstock is also said to be contemplating investing in road and rail in the United Kingdom. I would be the first to applaud investment in our infrastructure, as I have been calling for an increase in that sector for years. Nevertheless, it is state investment that should go into infrastructure ; I am thinking of the billions of pounds that are raised each year in motor taxation, less than a quarter of which is spent on roads.

The millions of Lord Weinstock should go back into manufacturing industry, from where they were generated, to make Britain more competitive in world markets so that we as a country can cut imports, thereby improving our trade balance which has been so deeply in the red for so long. In doing that, Lord Weinstock would also provide jobs for his existing work force instead of making them redundant. The Government do not appear to have grasped the need for a change in our industrial production following the end of the cold war. There are immense opportunities, but a non- interventionist approach is not needed.

The President of the Board of Trade seemed to be on the right lines when he told the Conservative party conference recently that he was prepared to intervene

"before breakfast, before lunch, before tea and before dinner on behalf of British industry."

Mrs. Dunwoody : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for hon. Members to sit in the Chamber and do their correspondence? Hon. Members have come here to debate matters of considerable importance.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : I thought that the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) had acknowledged me when I nodded to

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her and I know that the point was made to her by the Whips. There are facilities in this place to deal with one's correspondence. The place to do so is not in the Chamber.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster) : May I point out that I am perfectly capable of listening to what is happening and doing my local work at the same time? Unlike most hon. Members, I do not employ a secretary in London. I wish to know what is going on because, as the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) said, these matters are important. If I wish to take up a point that is being made, I am perfectly capable of doing that and of doing my correspondence at the same time. I did bow to your wishes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by ceasing to use a pair of scissors. However, I must say that I think the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich is more than somewhat narrow-minded.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Recently, I have noticed that many of the courtesies of the Chamber seem to have been put on one side, probably as a result of ignorance on the part of new hon. Members, for example, when leaving the Chamber after making a speech before the next speaker has spoken. It is not proper to do one's correspondence in the Chamber. There are facilities to do that elsewhere. I should be obliged if the hon. Member for Lancaster would refrain from doing so.

Mr. Hughes : Before that interruption, I was referring to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade to the Conservative party conference when he said that he was prepared to intervene at any time on the part of British industry. However, we have not seen much evidence of that resolve. Perhaps the President of the Board of Trade has been too busy closing our very efficient coal industry. The message crying out from the GEC-Marconi situation has been known for more than 2,000 years. I took the trouble of looking up Isaiah chapter 2, verse 4 which is about settling disputes between great nations. It states :

"They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks".

It is surely not too difficult to put that biblical message into a modern context.

I conclude by repeating the proposal that I made earlier today to the Secretary of State for Wales during Welsh questions. I called on him and the Secretary of State for Defence and the President of the Board of Trade to intervene to stop the closure in that vital works in Newport. Why pick on south Wales in that way? It has faced enough problems with coal and steel redundancies and closures. I plead with the Government to give our area a break. It has suffered enough. 7.6 pm

Mr. Michael Shersby (Uxbridge) : I declare an interest as chairman of the Falkland Islands group of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I want to raise a matter which is of great importance to the people of the Falkland Islands which I believe should be debated in the House before we rise for the Christmas recess--that is, the unilateral decision of the Republic of Argentina to invite applications to fish in its waters in the south-west Atlantic from countries which have, until recently, been fishing in Falkland Islands waters.

The Argentines are offering cheaper licences for longer periods, thus attracting trawlers away from the Falklands. Not only will that pose a severe threat to the economy of

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the Falklands ; it is also likely to decimate the stocks of ilex squid. The economy of the Falkland Islands depends on the population of ilex squid.

The Argentine action has been taken without prior consultation with either the British or Falkland Island Governments. It pays no regard to the need to conserve the stocks of ilex squid, and it will lead to its rapid depletion. It is likely to cost the Falkland Islands between £8 million and £16 million a year, which will seriously affect the ability of the islands to remain self-sufficient. To put those figures in perspective, one must realise that the total income of the Falkland Islands from those and other activities is about £30 million a year. The cost of the action represents a drop of anything up to 50 per cent. in the islands' income. In short, it represents a serious crisis which requires firm action from the British Government without delay.

Of course, as the House would expect, discussions have taken place between officials. Every effort has been made to resolve the problem. However, the discussions, which included proposals to limit the amount of squid that can be caught in Argentine waters, broke down at the weekend. We are therefore today faced with a very serious situation--indeed, one of the most serious situations since the conflict that occurred between the Falkland Islands and Argentina. Argentina has made it clear that it will allow trawlers which fish for ilex squid to catch between 200,000 and 300,000 tonnes. If that happens, it will be a disaster for the Falkland islanders and the conservation of fish stock which feeds millions of people around the world.

I am sure that my colleagues in the House who have visited the Falkland Islands will have been as impressed as I was to see the size of the fish when they are eventually caught and realise how vital they are in feeding so many people. Therefore, it is not simply an Argentine matter ; it affects many people who live in the less developed countries of the world.

It is possible that the Argentine decision could wipe out the ilex squid in a few years. The reason is that the life cycle of the fish is only one year. The fish which are caught in Argentine waters will be small and at the beginning of their life cycle. They are usually a good size by the time they reach Falkland waters.

Why is Argentina taking this unilateral action? The House may agree that it looks like a rather hostile political decision, intended to threaten the economy of the Falklands. The action is not necessary to Argentina or its economy. I believe that it is a most unfriendly act, to say the very least, by a country which wants to develop its trade with Britain and the Community and put recent events behind it. I say that because imports from Argentina in the 12 months to September 1992 were worth £122.3 million. British exports to Argentina for the same period were £103.4 million so we have a trade deficit with that country.

Argentina also seeks something else. It wants a fishery agreement with the European Community which will enable surplus European Community fishing vessels, mainly from Spain and Portugal, to fish in south-west Atlantic waters. To that end, the Community will contribute 28 million ecu--about $35 million--during the validity of the agreement, which has been initialled but not signed. That means that the Exchequer and the people of Britain will contribute to that money which is intended to enable the accord to come into force. It also means that the

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European Community is positively encouraging vessels to fish in the Falkland waters, and is providing financial aid to Argentina to develop its fishery.

Argentina constantly stresses to the Falkland islanders that contact is needed with them so that the two countries can share research and technology. The Falklands have frequently tried to share information with the Argentines. It has urged the Argentines that the stocks will be depleted if unrestricted fishing is allowed and fishing vessels will move to other fishing grounds. Both countries will suffer revenue loss.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton : As a fellow officer of the all-party Falkland Islands group, I am delighted that my hon. Friend has raised the issue. Can he explain that the Falkland Islands Government operates a most responsible conservation policy? In the past, it has limited the licences it issues and the size of catch that a fishing boat can bring in to the Falkland Islands.

Mr. Shersby : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I visited the Falkland Islands fishery in August and was able to see the policy which was being pursued. The policy is very responsible, designed to conserve fish stocks to the benefit of all concerned.

The problem is that, despite what the Argentines have said, so far they have taken little notice of approaches from the Falkland islanders and no action to give effect to their words. If the fishery grounds are carefully managed, there is no reason why the fishery should not last for many years to come, to the benefit of both countries. However, that simply has not happened.

As we sit here a few days before the Christmas recess, what can be done to make it clear to our fellow citizens in the Falklands and the Argentine Government that the British Government is not prepared to accept the decision? First, I believe that urgent action must be taken at senior ministerial level to make Argentina aware that Britain regards its action as likely to cause a major crisis. Secondly, it should be made clear to Argentina that the United Kingdom will veto the proposed fishing accord by using the Luxembourg compromise of saying that vital national interests are involved. We could do that because at present the United Kingdom is considering the accord, especially its effect on the Falklands.

I should like to say this in the spirit of Christmas. I hope that none of those actions will be necessary. I hope that Argentina will re-examine the serious problem and recognise that, if it wishes to trade with our country and the European Community and be accepted, and if we are to put behind us the recent unhappy events, hostile action of this sort against small islands and a small population is simply unacceptable to the people of the United Kingdom and those who live in western Europe. I hope that Argentina will give thought to those matters and resume talks as quickly as possible.

7.18 pm

Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting) : This debate gives hon. Members the opportunity to raise issues which they believe should be urgently debated, and that is what I intend to do in the short time that I wish to detain the House.

Last Thursday, hundreds of men and women from many parts of the country who have links with Kashmir lobbied Members of Parliament. Many hon. Members not only met those men and women, but spoke at the meeting

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that took place in the campaign that has been conducted for many years to give the people of Kashmir the right to decide how they wish their future to be developed.

The sad tragedy of Kashmir is one of continuing suffering to men and women of all ages, from the very young to the very old. For more than 45 years, part of Kashmir has been occupied by the Indian army, under the direct control of the Indian Government. It has been a rule of oppression and brutality. Many organisations have requested permission to visit the Indian -controlled area of Kashmir to see what conditions are like. Many hon. Members have made similar requests. Those continual requests are always refused, yet no reason whatever is given by the Indian authorities for such refusals.

Last year, the hon. Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler), the former Member for Ilford, South, Mr. Neil Thorne, and I visited Pakistan. I pay the warmest tribute to Pakistan, not only for its commitment to Kashmir, but also for the care that it shows to the refugees who have fled the Indian-occupied area of their country. I saw with my own eyes the brutality that has been inflicted on men and women who had escaped from the Indian-controlled area of Kashmir. Horrendous and sordid injuries had been inflicted on those people. We visited the area of Kashmir which is now the responsibility of Pakistan. We were allowed to go anywhere we wished, and we were allowed to speak to anyone to whom we wished to speak.

Mr. Toby Jessel (Twickenham) : The hon. Gentleman speaks highly of Pakistan. Does he recall that, soon after he and I entered the House in 1970, wicked and atrociously cruel oppression was perpetrated by the Pakistan army on the people of East Pakistan and East Bengal, now Bangladesh? Is he aware that the Pakistanis now give aid and comfort to terrorists in Kashmir?

Mr. Cox : I take the gravest exception to the hon. Gentleman's last comment about terrorists of Kashmir, as indeed will people who are citizens of Great Britain. They are men and women fighting for their freedom. If the Indian Government allowed those so-called terrorists the opportunity freely to decide their future, they would decide it. The hon. Gentleman should know as well as I do that the great tragedy of Kashmir is that freedom and opportunity are being denied. I return to the comments that I wish to make. I saw the most horrendous and sordid injuries that had been inflicted on people. I shall give just one example. We saw a young boy of 16 who was picked up by the Indian army and accused of being a terrorist. He denied it. He was taken into a room and tied down on a table. His clothes were pulled open and kerosene oil was poured all over his chest and set alight. The burning that one saw on his body was one of the most sickening sights that anyone could see.

That example is not something we were just told about. I and two other Members of Parliament, one who is still a Conservative Member and the other who lost his seat at the election, saw the young boy. I could give many other examples of such injuries which we were not told about but which we saw for ourselves. People of all ages had suffered such brutal action.

Since 1948, many attempts have been made to solve the Kashmiri issue by means of the United Nations resolution.

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Such efforts go back many years. The obstacle to progress is the lack of any real commitment on the part of the Indian Government. When it suits them, the Indian Government will say that India is the largest democracy in the world. The key to democracy is to allow people their freedom and allow them to decide how they wish their future to develop. That is what the people of Kashmir want : they want to decide whether they wish to be linked to India or Pakistan, or whether they want to be an independent country.

This afternoon and this evening, we have heard some moving debates on issues that concern all of us, such as the former Yugoslavia. Britain becomes involved in many issues. I do not criticise that. I am sure that we are deeply concerned about the former Yugoslavia on humanitarian grounds and because we are horrified at the appalling suffering that many men and women are enduring there. However, we do not have any real links with Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia does not have the history which Kashmir has.

If the Leader of the House or any hon. Member doubts that the Kashmiri people look to Britain to play an active role, they need only read the commitments given by the last Viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten, to Kashmir and its people. I believe, as do hon. Members on both sides of the House who support the efforts of the Kashmiri people to decide what their rights should be, that the Government must take some steps of paramount importance.

I hope that the Leader of the House will take note of my points and use his influence or that of his right hon. Friends to make those points to the relevant people. The British Government should immediately make it clear to the Indian Government that the brutal treatment and oppression of Kashmiri men and women must be stopped immediately, and full and free access to the Indian-controlled area of Kashmir given to organisations. There are many highly reputable organisations in Britain and throughout the world which could play that role, see what the conditions are and meet whomever they wish, so that they can form a judgment.

Many Members of Parliament would also like to have the opportunity to go to the Indian-controlled area of Kashmir and see what conditions are really like ; but, despite enormous numbers of such requests, visits have not been allowed. There is always a reason why it is not convenient for us to go. If there is nothing to hide, why are groups not allowed to go? Why are Members of Parliament, irrespective of party, not allowed to go? The Government must seek via the United Nations a full debate on Kashmir. I hope that the United Kingdom will initiate that debate.

We want the Government to initiate a debate on Kashmir in Parliament in their own time early in the new year. Many men and women in Britain have links with Kashmir but are citizens of Great Britain. They believe that we should debate the issue in the House. As Members of Parliament who represent those people, we have a duty to allow them to hear the views of Parliament on that country. The British Government should bring together the two Commonwealth countries which are deeply involved in Kashmir-- Pakistan and India--at the Commonwealth conference next year and persuade them to agree to a debate on Kashmir at the conference.

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Kashmir and its people want one thing : the freedom to decide their future. Every Member of Parliament, irrespective of party, has a duty to help those people and that country to achieve that objective.

7.28 pm

Mr. David Amess (Basildon) : Before the House adjourns for the Christmas recess, I wish to raise three matters. They are hospital radio broadcasting, pets and Basildon.

I have the honour to be the unpaid parliamentary spokesman for Hospital Radio Broadcasting. As many hon. Members will know, it is the largest team of volunteers in Britain without any paid officers. One part of the organisation is Radio Lollipop, which operates in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman). That radio station is dedicated to broadcasting to children. I am pleased to announce that it is organising a fax-a-joke project this Christmas, and hopes to broadcast it throughout the country to cheer up sick children in hospital.

On a serious note, I have probably been failing the organisation for the past five years. Hospital radio is merely asking for its own frequency. Often people visiting hospitals ask whether they can tune in to the hospital radio station on their own headsets. The benefits of FM broadcasting are that hospitals would not have to spend as much money on maintaining hardware systems and that our programmes would be heard more easily by the audience at which they are aimed. Our programmes are generated by more than 15,000 volunteers within the 320 member stations in hospitals throughout the country, at an annual cost of £7 million. The aim of our organisation has never been to broaden the audience outside the homes and hospitals that we serve, but we want to get the programmes to the audience for which they are intended.

A recent test at Redhill hospital was a great disappointment. All the members are so enthusiastic about broadcasting. I broadcast from a hospital at Bow for a short time. Hospital radio is supposed to cheer up sick patients and I was told firmly that my voice was not therapeutic, but I took no offence and decided to work quietly behind the scenes.

On behalf of all the members of that organisation, which I am privileged to represent, I must say that it is churlish of the Broadcasting Authority to have shilly-shallied for five years. We still do not have our own frequency. I hope that the authority does not think that our organisation is not worth a frequency, and I hope that hon. Members throughout the House will support our initiative to get one.

The second issue is pets. Many hon. Members are keen on keeping pets, as is my household. I have it on good authority that Father Christmas will be delivering a canary to one of our children this Christmas. During times of great difficulty in the economy animals have suffered to some extent. I wonder how many hon. Members realise that the Act that controls the maintenance of pet shops is 41 years old--the Shops Act 1951.

Last year I tried to amend the 1951 Act. My simple Bill set out regulations for the care of pet animals, inspection

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of pet shops by veterinary surgeons, the keeping of records and, most important of all, regulations on the sale of animals to children under 16.

I do not wish to be a spoilsport at Christmas, but it is just not good enough for a child to be allowed, without the parents' permission, to purchase a puppy, a kitten or an exotic reptile from a pet shop. All those animals need a great deal of care and it is incumbent upon pet shop owners to make certain that children's parents have given permission for their purchase. I know that the Leader of the House has a busy schedule in 1993, but I hope that he will find time for a short piece of legislation to amend the 1951 Act.

I shall end my speech on the subject of Basildon. The constituency has attracted some attention during the past year. One reason was that it was one of the first marginal constituences to show that there would once again be a Conservative Government. I am the only Member of Parliament that Basildon has had. We have gone to the good people of Basildon three times and been elected three times. On every occasion the media and other interested parties, including one or two Opposition Members, have forecast that a Conservative Member would not be re-elected.

It is no secret that the former rotten socialist council was one reason for my re-election in April, as it was an absolute disgrace. On 7 May, 15 Conservative candidates stood for election and were elected, with swings of between 20 and 50 per cent. from the socialists to the Conservatives.

In May, my poor, excellent, Conservative council was left with hardly enough money to collect the refuse--we were left with only £0.5 million in the reserves. The former socialist council wanted to spend £28 million. Of that, £14 million was to go in wages and £7 million towards capital and interest payments on loans. My excellent Conservative councillors were left to grapple with that scandalous state of affairs. They have done a sterling job during the past five months and have pledged that next year, for the first time ever, Basildon will not be capped, and that it will not be capped again as long as it has a Conservative council.

During the past year, much has been written and said about Basildon and much has been heard about the town on television and radio. However, much of it has been written by people who have no knowledge of my constituency. They pop in and out with their teams and write stories with no meaning. It is about time that the truth was heard and that is why I hope that next Christmas hon. Members will purchase for their stockings a book called "The Road to Basildon", of which I am the author. On that note, I wish everyone a happy Christmas and I hope that they will enjoy good health and prosperity in 1993. 7.37 pm

Mr. William Ross (Londonderry, East) : The hon. Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess) ended on a happy note with some self-congratulation and wished us all a merry Christmas, but anyone who has sat through the debate will realise that it will not be merry in many parts of the world. We have heard speeches about the gravest matters and no doubt many hon. Members will wish to follow them.

Today we have come here to comment briefly on matters of concern to our constituents, and I shall deal with the methods and policy of the Northern Ireland

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Housing Executive in regard to the grants that it pays for private housing. The grants run at about £32 million a year and have done an enormous amount of good in the past. In 1984, about 27,000 properties benefited from the grants, but by last year the figure had fallen to 5,748. That fall reflects two things : first, that restrictions are placed on those who can get a grant ; and, secondly, that there has been a general improvement in the housing stock. However, there have been problems and setbacks. For example, replacement grants seemed suddenly to vanish ; no one seems to be able to get one. Also, people were offered a grant and spent money on having plans drawn up, only to discover that the grant was withdrawn at the last minute. That is a scandal.

I have long preached in the House that it is often better to replace a poor house than to spend a lot of good money to repair it. If people were offered less for replacing than repairing, we would have a much better housing stock throughout the United Kingdom, not just in Northern Ireland.

Because of the present financial circumstances, the Housing Executive grant system was changed and a new system came into operation on 1 October. I appreciate the fact that the Government wish to means-test everything, but I do not know whether it is wise to apply it to housing. However, that has happened and I am not sure whether much saving has resulted. Although the change was unwelcome, I understand it, given the philosophy that lies behind the Government's action.

My constituents and I cannot understand the Housing Executive grant form. The first 12 questions on the form are perfectly

straightforward and resemble those found on any Government form. However, we take grave exception to question 13, which states : "It is Executive Policy to direct grant aid regardless of the political affiliation or religious belief of the applicant." The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) should listen carefully to this because it applies to what he was saying. The question goes on :

"In pursuit of this Policy the Executive strives to ensure fairness in the treatment of all households and individuals. To help us achieve this aim it is important that we collect basic information on the religious denomination of applicants. Please tick which of the following best describes the religious composition of your household."

It then gives the choice between Protestant, Roman Catholic, mixed Protestant and Roman Catholic, or other.

I find that scandalous and do not see what on earth an individual's religious affiliation has to do with whether his house needs repair : either it needs repair or it does not ; either it falls within the legislation or it does not. In all the years that I have been a Member, many applications for grants have passed across my desk. I have received many complaints about how the grants have been administered, but I have never received a complaint from an applicant who has been refused a grant saying that it was refused on the grounds that he was a Protestant or a Roman Catholic. He may have been refused for many other reasons and may have had difficulties with the reasons given for refusal, but he never said, "I was refused because of the house of worship that I attend on a Sunday morning or evening."

The position is now different. We have never had the problem before, but the mere asking of that question makes it an issue. Since I first raised the question in Northern Ireland, the Housing Executive has said that

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applicants need not answer that question. Why ask it, then? If it is not filled in, it will soon make an utter nonsense of the statistics. Experience of fair employment legislation has already shown us that, although it is not obligatory to answer the question now, the next step is that it will have to be answered. The matter will go on and on and great efforts will be made to find out exactly what an individual's religious affiliations are.

Because the question of religion is now being asked, the executive will have to publish statistics on who has replied and who has received and been refused grants. They will then have to stop assistance to decide how grants can be allocated fairly. Will it be by the sums allocated to the religious group in question, by the number of grants made or by area? Will the applicant need to be visited by different grants officers--two sets of them --or will there be two sets of administrative staff just to determine whether the grants are being allocated fairly?

The matter will not end with Housing Executive repair grants. One thinks of all the ramifications such a policy will cause in terms of the grants that farmers receive. There are big farmers, little farmers, dairy farmers, pig farmers, poultry farmers, sheep farmers, beef farmers, potato farmers and less-favoured areas. Each will be able to complain of discrimination. In industry, the Local Enterprise Development Unit in Northern Ireland, the industrial development boards and other groups will claim discrimination. The issue may also apply to social security benefits. I do not know where it will end, but I wonder where it comes from.

The Belfast News Letter editorial of 7 December, when I raised the question, said :

"The Northern Ireland Housing Executive appears to be indoctrinated with the pontifical, and at times absurd, policy-speak of the Fair Employment Commission, if the questionnaire on its grants form is anything to go by."

I share that view and believe that the form should be withdrawn. It is another mistake as it asks a irrelevant question. That offensive question should be removed and, while the Housing Executive is at it, it should also withdraw the earlier form that it produced for the housing selection scheme, which apparently asks the same question. I was not aware of that until now. It used to be illegal in Northern Ireland to ask the religious denomination of anyone applying for a job or anything else. It is not a requirement. The Housing Executive must face a lot of questions from me about who has received a grant. 7.45 pm

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) : I always enjoy these debates, particularly the one at Christmas. Faced with Christmas shopping, writing Christmas cards or the opportunity to raise an issue about which I feel strongly on the Floor of the House, I feel that there is no choice. We have heard some emotional speeches so far and, although my speech will be on a completely different topic, it will none the less be extremely strong stuff.

We should not adjourn for the Christmas recess until we have had a thorough debate on the prospects for Britain's hill farmers. Last Thursday, without any warning or discussion, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food announced the outcome of the autumn review on hill farming. He reported that there had been a recovery of hill farm incomes. Although that is acknowledged, the recovery is nothing like as good

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as he suggested. As a consequence of that recovery, he announced a 26 per cent. cut in hill livestock compensation paid to sheep farmers in less-favoured areas.

My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) has already said that that is disgraceful. I propose to use the two adjectives "shabby" and "despicable". Not only does it threaten to put hill farmers out of business but it threatens the future of our upland landscape, much of which lies in national parks. No one should doubt the seriousness of the situation.

If one tours our upland areas, one sees empty farms and farm properties where farmers and their families have given up because they cannot make a living. The proposed cut is unprecedented. It will return hill farmers' incomes to those of 10 years ago. A typical hill farmer in my constituency- -I dare say that it applies right across the country--with some 750 ewes would lose £1,500. Farms with larger flocks are already curbed by unfavourable treatment from the European Community because they suffer from headage limits.

There have been some encouraging signs of income recovery. The prices paid for store lambs went up this year and a little last year but that must be put in perspective. The recovery is from incomes that were at their lowest since the war. In real terms, incomes are still significantly less than they were five or six years ago when I was first elected to the House, and we thought that they were in crisis then. They remain in crisis and will be in even bigger crisis if the cuts go ahead.

Many hill farmers are struggling to survive. They have been holding on, hoping for better times. Now, just as matters look a little brighter, they face a cut in support that will knock them back to where they were just two years ago. It is extraordinary that Ministers recognised the fact that hill farmers needed help. Those farmers were grateful for much-needed increases in the ewe premium and the introduction of advance-stage payments of that premium. At a stroke, all the good work of the past two or three years will be undermined, eroded, and wiped out. It is ludicrous that the cut in support proposed by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food competes with schemes such as the Department of the Environment's stewardship scheme, which recognises how impossible it is for some farmers to make a decent living. Some two or three years ago, the North York Moors national park introduced a scheme based entirely on the fact that government at whatever level, whether local or national, recognised the severe difficulties of marginal hill farming and its importance to the fabric of the upland districts.

Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton) : I am glad that my hon. Friend has been given the opportunity to raise an important issue that burst on us over this past weekend, after the leakage of an announcement that was intended to be made as we went away for the Christmas recess. Is my hon. Friend aware that Exmoor in my constituency is about to become or has become an environmentally sensitive area and that the Ministry's press release refers to over-grazing? Surely that is not the way to tackle the problem of over-grazing, if there is such a problem.

Mr. Greenway : My hon. Friend makes a valid point and speaks of his experience, which is spot on and on which other hon. Members should reflect. In the press release announcing the cut in hill livestock compensatory allowance, the Ministry said that there would be further

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measures to prevent over-grazing. The combination of the two factors--the cut in hill livestock compensatory allowance and the measures to prevent over-grazing--will put out of business the very farmers whom we are supposed to be in the business of helping. Let us be clear about the sort of people and families involved. We can forget the urban city dweller's view of the fat cat farmer. Families in such farms struggle to make ends meet. When I visited them, as I like to do during our recesses and intend to do over the Christmas recess, I am always deeply moved at the way in which they go about their business. They do not expect much out of life, and they look on hill farming as a way of life. Anyone who knows the North York Moors national park will know that it is probably one of the most beautiful places in the world.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton rose --

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