House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Jan 1993

Mr. Freeman : I pay tribute to my hon. Friend. He and I have visited the Eastleigh depot. I know that my hon. Friend supports very much the work of that BRML depot. We shall seek to make an announcement as quickly as possible on the future of the four major depots. If the depot were transferred to the private sector, the intention is that it would compete fairly, on a level playing field, with other engineering companies in the private sector.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

National Audit Office

29. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what assessment he has made of the effect on the budgetary requirements of the National Audit Office of the introduction of citizens charters in Government Departments.

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission (Sir Peter Hordern) : The National Audit Office's corporate plan for 1993-94 to 1997-98 confirms that the National Audit Office's strategy is to take account of and respond positively to the citizens charter initiative.

Mr. Bayley : Is the National Audit Office in a position to make a detatched and independent evaluation of the effectiveness and efficiency of the citizens charter initiative? If not, who is?

Sir Peter Hordern : I very much hope so. The National Audit Office has been making reports about the quality of service for many years. Several reports were given to the Public Accounts Committee only last year. The NAO, is therefore, fully qualified to carry out this initiative.

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Dr. Kim Howells : Does the Chairman also acknowledge that the Public Accounts Commission has been extremely worried about the lack of accountability of some, for want of a better term, quangos? There are grave worries that the next steps agencies could go down the same road and that this time next year we shall find ourselves expressing worries about the new agencies, just as we are expressing worries now about the existing ones.

Sir Peter Hordern : I am sure that those points will have been made to the Comptroller and Auditor General. If he is very concerned about it, as he may well be, he in his turn will come before the Commission and ask for help and extra resources. So far, however, the Comptroller and Auditor General has expressed himself fully satisfied with the resources that have been made available to him.

30. Mr. Michael : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what assessment he has made of the effect on the funding requirements of the National Audit Office of changes in the organisation of the national health service.

Sir Peter Hordern : The National Audit Office's corporate plan for 1993-94 to 1997-98 takes account of the need to examine known changes in the machinery of Government, which includes NHS reforms.

Mr. Michael : Can the Chairman assure us that the Commission is aware of the fact that, irrespective of changes of management, of trusts, or anything else, people still regard their local hospital as their hospital? That is certainly true of Llandough hospital in my constituency. My constituents want that hospital to get a fair crack of the whip in terms of finance and contracts. Can the Chairman assure us that there will be a mechanism in place, and the staff, to investigate the way in which all financial arrangements are made and to ensure that money is allocated and accounted for properly in this new climate of ever-increasing numbers of quangos and trusts?

Sir Peter Hordern : Of course it is important that the National Audit Office should have the power and the capacity to look at the reforms and how they are carried out. The NAO has carried out a number of reviews. Only last year there were eight, and seven the year before, which were brought before the Public Accounts Commission. I am sure that the Comptroller and Auditor General will read what the hon. Gentleman has said, for he has raised a very important point.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the Commission will look closely at National Audit Commission reports that refer to specific scandals in the national health service? It is becoming increasingly clear that the opportunities of the so-called internal market are being exploited, not for the good of patients, but for those who want to rip off the taxpayer, because it is seen as an easy mark.

Sir Peter Hordern : I cannot comment generally on what the hon. Lady says. However, I hope that she will put any specific examples to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. John Marshall : Will my right hon. Friend point out to the National Audit Office that the internal market has led to an increase in the number of patients being treated and a reduction in waiting lists? The internal market is seen as good value for money for patients.

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Sir Peter Hordern : I have no doubt that the Comptroller and Auditor General will report on this, as on any other matters.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

Clocking On

31. Mr. Skinner : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, pursuant to his oral answer of 29 June, Official Report, columns 575-76, what further consideration has been given to removing clocking on and off procedures for all members of the staff in Parliament.

Mr. A. J. Beith (on behalf of the House of Commons Commission) : I understand that the position in the Refreshment Department remains unchanged since my answer to the hon. Member on 29 June 1992 and that since that date no representations from trade unions that represent staff in the Refreshment Department have been received requesting abolition of the present time-recording system. Other Departments in the House continue to review the methods for recording the attendance of their staff.

Mr. Skinner : Does the right hon. Gentleman, who represents the Liberal Democrats, understand that it is nothing short of a disgrace that cleaners, cooks and bottle washers must clock on when Ministers, Members of Parliament, top civil servants and people in the press gallery do not need to clock on ? Can the right hon. Gentleman and the rest of them not get rid of the upstairs downstairs mentality ? Instead of waffling on about the classless society, they should do something about the upstairs downstairs mentality.

Madam Speaker : Order. The right hon. Gentleman is answering on behalf of the House of Commons Commission.

Mr. Beith : Time recording is used mainly in those

Departments--primarily the Refreshment Department--in which the overtime worked by staff is important to the calculation of the pay they receive. Presumably, that is one of the reasons why the trade unions have accepted that some form of time recording is appropriate.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : Rather than wait for the trade unions to ask, would it not be a good idea to take a management initiative and consult representatives of the staff to see whether they would prefer to continue with the present system or change it ?

Mr. Beith : The matter is under regular discussion between representatives of the staff and management.

Clerks (Judicial Inquiries)

32. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make it his policy to permit the seconding of House of Commons Clerks to the secretariat of judicial inquiries.

Mr. Beith : No approach has been made to the House authorities requesting such secondments and the Commission, therefore, has no reason to consider the matter.

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Mr. Dalyell : With the experience of having given one and a half hours of oral evidence to Lord Franks and his colleagues--who, by common consent, produced something of a whitewash--and in view of the fact that every knotty problem relating to arms to Iraq is landing in Lord Justice Scott's in-tray, would it not be better if his committee and the helpers that he must have were partly staff from the Clerks of the House, not only because of their acknowledged expertise, but because, unlike civil servants, they do not need to return to a Government machine which naturally determines their careers and futures? Can we have Clerks who are responsible to the House, rather than civil servants who are ultimately responsible to the Government?

Mr. Beith : The hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting point. However, it is not for the Commission to pass judgment on the effectiveness of the support staff used by inquiries. If there is a wider feeling that such a change and such secondments would be appropriate, it would then be for the Commission to consider whether that could be accommodated within the work of the House. I think that the confidence which the hon. Gentleman shows in the independence and expertise of our Clerks will be widely shared in the House.

Children's Centre

33. Mrs. Helen Jackson : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick- upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, when the Finance and Services Committee will consider proposals to establish space and provision for a children's centre in the Palace of Westminster.

Mr. Beith : The Finance and Services Committee was nominated on 11 December and has now held its first meeting. It may be for the convenience of the House if I respond to the hon. Lady's question, which was tabled prior to the Committee's nomination. Possible options are still being investigated by the authorities of the House and any suitable proposals will then be put to the relevant Committees. When their feasibility, cost and financial implications have been examined, a recommendation will be brought before the Finance and Services Committee, which will give advice to the Commission. However, I shall bring the hon. Lady's continuing interest to the attention of the Serjeant at Arms and the Establishments Office as an indication of the importance placed on the project by several hon. Members.

Mrs. Jackson : Does the hon. Gentleman agree--I think that he does-- that 1992 was characterised by many parliamentary questions and answers on the matter being answered by "soon", "may be", "hope so", "when we find the money"and "when we find the space"? May I suggest that he recommends to the Finance and Services Committee that it makes a new year resolution that during 1993 space will be found for children in this large Palace in which we sit? Space should be found for well-equipped facilities for mothers with small babies and for the many children who visit the Palace. It is disgraceful that in the 1990s we have no such facilities for families and for visitors' and Members' children, grandchildren and so on. Will the Committee make that new year resolution?

Mr. Beith : The hon. Lady's supplementary question goes wider than the creche proposal which was, indeed, the

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subject of many questions during 1992. It extends to whether we could go beyond the present facilities of the Families Room. Those matters ought to be considered by the Accommodation and Works Committee and the Commission has asked the Committee to consider them.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Sittings of the House

36. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for the time of sittings of the House in the light of the legislative programme for the remainder of the parliamentary year.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton) : Discussions are continuing through theusual channels to seek to identify an acceptable basis on which the House can take decisions on the report of the Select Committee on Sittings of the House, including decisions on the timing of implementation of any changes which may be agreed.

Mr. Hughes : Does the Lord President of the Council accept that the implication of the statement that he made last year when the report was produced was that the new regime would be in operation from the beginning of 1993 so that we could work some logical hours this year and change the system of decades for a better one? Have the Government not implemented the new proposals merely because small technical difficulties remain or do they not intend to introduce them until after they have allowed the House to play funny games as a punishment for rebels, as opposed to an advancement of democracy?

Mr. Newton : The hon. Gentleman's interpretation is wide of the mark. I assure him that no one has a greater vested interest--if I may put it that way--in making progress on the proposals than the Leader of the House, in view of the amount of time that he is expected to put in here.

Mr. Madel : On the progress of the Maastricht Bill, would it not help us all if we stuck to Tuesdays and Wednesdays until the proceedings are completed? That would make our lives reasonably reasonable.

Mr. Newton : As I said at business questions just before the recess when a similar point was put to me, I cannot give an immediate undertaking of that nature. However, I am conscious of the number of people who would find that arrangement convenient.

Mrs. Beckett : Does the Lord President accept that while we are well aware that he has taken some small steps, which are most welcome on both sides of the House, towards adopting the recommendations made in the report, we are anxious to see further moves by agreement between all parties, particularly because it is undoubtedly the case that our present hours and circumstances of operation are likely to put off the many women whom we wish to see in the House in every party?

Mr. Newton : That, I know, was a point which was in the mind of my right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) and others who were involved in the report. I welcome what the hon. Lady has said. As she knows--I state this simply as a matter of

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fact and not in any sense as a criticism-- she is currently considering her response to a letter that I wrote after outlining some thoughts to her earlier.

Mr. Marlow : As the Maastricht treaty is dead until the Danes change their minds in another referendum, and as legal expertise takes the view that they do not have the legally binding opt-outs for which they asked, would it not be in everyone's interest to delay further strenuous consideration of the Maastricht Bill in the House until the Danes have said yes?

Mr. Newton : I know and understand my hon. Friend's views on the matter and I hope that he will not think me unduly aggressive if I simply say no.

Chamber (Layout)

37. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Lord President of the Council what assessment he has made of the physical layout of the Chamber of the House on the effectiveness of its procedures.

Mr. Newton : No such assessment has been made.

Mr. Banks : That is a pity because, given that Members of Parliament are getting reasonable office facilities, surely it is time that we examined the possibility of a new debating chamber in this House. The layout of this Chamber resembles that of a pokey, second division football ground, so it is not surprising that we have outbreaks of crowd disturbance from time to time. In the latter part of the 20th century, is not it time for us to have a proper Chamber, with allocated places, desks to work from, individual microphones and electronic voting, or is this place to remain a parliamentary museum?

Mr. Newton : I think that I may say on behalf of the House of Commons Commission with your assent, Madam Speaker and that of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), that the Commission has no proposals for rebuilding the Chamber. As for electronic voting, I should miss the hon. Gentleman's attendance in the House.

Question Time (London)

38. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for a Question Time for London ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Newton : I have no proposals for a separate Question Time for London, but hon. Members can, of course, ask questions of relevance to London to any of the Departments of state.

Mr. Greenway : Would my right hon. Friend be kind enough to look to his sense of fairness on such matters within the United Kingdom, bearing in mind that Northern Ireland has 17 Members of Parliament and a whole Question Time, Wales has 36--or perhaps 32--and a whole Question Time and Scotland has 71 Members and one hour of questions? Is that not somewhat unfair to the people of London, who have 84 Members of Parliament and who are the heart and the father of this nation?

Mr. Newton : I do not think that the constitutional position of London can be equated quite with that of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. I am also mindful of the fact that my right hon. Friend the Patronage

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Secretary, in an unusual intervention in our affairs, asked, "What about East Anglia?"--a view with which I can sympathise. My hon. Friend's record in asking questions, not only in London but on Ealing, is second to none.

Guillotine

40. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has to change the operation of the guillotine.

Mr. Newton : I have no plans to alter the arrangements for allocation of time motions governed by Standing Order No. 81. However, the Select Committee on Sittings of the House, in the report to which I referred earlier, recommended the routine timetabling of all Government Bills, except those taken through Committee on the Floor of the House.

Mr. Cohen : Will the Lord President of the Council tell us if and how he proposes to use the guillotine on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill? Would it not be appalling to use that on such an awful piece of legislation? In the longer term, should time-limited speeches not be available as a constitutional alternative?

Mr. Newton : The hon. Gentleman will have his own views on such matters, but I am not sure that they will be shared in all parts of the House.

Points of Order (Reform)

41. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will bring forward proposals for the reform of the points of order procedure.

Mr. Newton : Points of order, by their very nature, do not arise in a regular or predictable way and I see little scope for a rigid, regulated procedure. It is for the Chair to determine whether points of order are genuine and to give rulings as appropriate.

Mr. Bowis : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most often heard words in this House are, "This is not a matter for me"? Would it not be a blessing to Madam Speaker if the House took action to remove from her shoulders the burden of tedium caused by the most abused procedure in the House?

Mr. Newton : I note that my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Procedure Committee is in his place and I congratulate him and my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Sir P. Hordern) on becoming my right hon. Friends. He will have heard what my hon. Friend has said, but I am sure that the Procedure Committee would wish to respond were Madam Speaker to suggest that she saw a need for such consideration.

Mr. Cryer : Does the Leader of the House accept that interference with the right of Members of Parliament to raise issues on points of order- -issues that are often substantial--and the removal of the Speaker's right to determine such issues, making them subject to political pressure, would be opposed by many hon. Members? Points of order are a time-honoured and useful way to raise important issues and they should not be interfered with.

Mr. Newton : Yes, despite my occasional or perhaps even more than occasional disagreement with the hon.

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Gentleman, he makes some very good points. Everyone would agree that, although we recognise and deplore abuse when it clearly occurs, we should need to be careful before taking too many rights away from too many people.

Finance and Services Committee

43. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to be able to nominate the Finance and Services Committee ; and if he will make a statement.

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Mr. Newton : The Finance and Services Committee was nominated on Friday 11 December and had its first meeting on Wednesday 16 December.

Mr. Thurnham : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the efficiency of the House should be much improved with the formation of that Committee? Will he hasten its progress in bringing about those improvements?

Mr. Newton : The Committee, at its first meeting, considered a full programme of work in which improving the efficiency of the financial control over affairs in the House was very much a key element.

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