House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Jan 1993

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman will have to do a little better than that. Everything is a vocation. Was the specific grant for vocational training? If it was not, perhaps the hon. Gentleman could use a different example.

Sir Richard Body : I think that I am on a good point, and it came to mind when the hon. Member for Bradford, South intervened. With due respect to Sheffield polytechnic, it had no expertise in this area and sought advice from me about where to obtain it, but it did that after obtaining an assurance from Brussels about money. Before allocating money for something of this kind, one would have thought that Brussels would seek out

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman speaks about "something of this kind", but that is not vocational training. I am here to serve the Committee. The amendments are fairly tightly drawn and we are debating vocational training. In his heart, the hon. Gentleman knows whether the advice that he offered related to vocational training. If it did, his remarks are in order : if it did not, he should not continue that line of argument.

Sir Richard Body : I shall move on, but I should have thought that training in a particular form of farming was vocational.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : I should like to ask my hon. Friend about the mention in the treaty of what is called the "European dimension in education". What will be the European dimension in education of the Franco- Prussian war, the invasion of France by Germany, Poland's experience over 400 years, the concentration camps and the second world war?

The Chairman : Order.

Sir Richard Body : My hon. and learned Friend poses a fundamental question. I should prefer the whole issue to be left to the Council of Europe, but I shall not digress. If Monnet could hear our debate, he would be intrigued. Directly in reply to what my hon. Friend has said, in 1988 at a gathering to commemorate the work of Mr. Monnet as founder of the Community--I suppose that we would not be having this debate were it not for Monnet--Mr. Re gis Debray, the former French prime minister, said that shortly before Mr. Monnet died he said that, had he been starting again, he would have sought to found the Community not on economics but on culture and education.

I think that that probably answers the question posed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir Nicholas Fairbairn) because Mr. Monnetwas all for--I do not want to use this ugly word-- homogenising. He believed, in all good faith and with total sincerity, that the conflicts of Europe would never come to

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an end unless we were tending to think alike and to share the same values and therefore to share the same culture and to be educated in much the same way.

Mr. Monnet would have been appalled at the kind of history lessons that I and perhaps my hon. and learned Friend had when we heard about Waterloo, Trafalgar and matters of that kind. He would have preferred education to be European education, written objectively and treated impartially in the classroom. That meeting to commemorate the work of Monnet was very significant. Monnet might well have been right to give that opinion in those last few weeks of his life if he was seeking to create a superstate out of western Europe.

Of course we are going to have a European dimension for history, literature, and perhaps geography and other subjects, if we allow this part of the treaty to proceed and to be part of a common education policy. I dare say that my hon. Friend the Minister, when he replies, will say that there is no such intention because there is to be subsidiarity. I can almost see him making that speech now. My hon. Friend will realise already that this article uses the term "majority voting".

Mr. Iain Duncan-Smith (Chingford) : In article 126, in subparagraph 4, invoking 189b, and in article 127, under subparagraph 4, invoking 189c, both give the Commission a strong position to bring forward to the Council a rule on quantitative majority voting. Would my hon. Friend like to comment on the importance of that in relation to these matters?

Sir Richard Body : I should have thought that anyone concerned about educational standards would be concerned about that--including, of course, the Minister when he replies. We have been arguing for the last few years about a national curriculum and about standards, and arousing the ire of many schoolteachers on the subject. There is a hornets' nest in certain schools. Yet having gone through all that, we are putting our head into a noose and making our Minister, when he goes to the Council of Ministers, very vulnerable.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : Is one to understand that the European dimension will be to say that the first and second world wars and the battle of Waterloo were draws? May I ask my hon. Friend to interpret the treaty which speaks of the increasing dimension of distance education? I have not had much education and I am very close to my hon. Friend in all ways, but I do not understand why a noun is again being used instead of an adjective in an educational paragraph. What is distance education? Does it mean that the teacher is so scared of his pupils that he lives in the Isle of Wight and has to shout?

The Chairman : Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly in order in asking what is distance education, but he must allow the hon. Gentleman who has the Floor to respond.

Sir Richard Body : My hon. and learned Friend should not be surprised by the drafting of this. Has it not been drafted by one of his fellow poets? Hardly a phrase, certainly not a whole sentence, nor any part of the treaty, can be described as being in decent literary English.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further and Higher Education(Mr. Tim Boswell) : Perhaps I can assist the House by sayinthat my understanding of

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distance education and distance learning, allowing for the point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn) and his aversion to the use of nouns as adjectives, is that it is learning or education done at a distance, rather than being conveyed on a personal basis across the classroom. It is teaching which may be delivered, or learning received, by means of a number of modern techniques, audio-visual cassettes, written material sent through the post, which is particularly characterised in this country by the Open university and done very well.

Sir Richard Body : I always keep my distance from anyone who is teaching, for very good reasons. I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I had assumed that that was the meaning of this. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross has touched on an important point about this European dimension. I can see, as the whole House can surely see now, that we shall have large parts of our history books and syllabuses reconsidered with incentive money. That is the term used. It was hinted at in particular by the Commissioner for education when he went to Madrid. I think that it was last November when he talked about how important it was to have a common system of education for Europe and said that the Maastricht treaty would enable that to come about, so I am sure that the fear expressed by my hon. and learned Friend is right.

Mr. Marlow : I have many weaknesses and one of them is that I am a great patriot and populist and I am keen on England and English history. There are great victories in English history like Crecy, Agincourt, Poitiers which we talked about at school. If one looks at a French map one will not find those battlefields. Is it likely that under the provisions of this article future generations of our children, when they look at history maps in English history lessons, or European history lessons as they will be, will not find Crecy, Agincourt and Poitiers? They will not be on the map or be talked about. They will not be anything. There may be other aspects of English history where the same things may happen.

Sir Richard Body : No doubt that will be the case. Many people, including some hon. Members, look forward to the day when our schools no longer teach such subjects and when our history is "more objective", as they say. Many in the teaching profession look forward to that day.

Mr. Cryer : Does not this exchange show the sloppy drafting of the treaty? The European dimension can mean little or it can mean a lot. Unlike the drafting of Government legislation and delegated legislation, there is no area that defines the words that are used--hence the term European, which I assume refers to the Community but could equally apply to the whole of Europe. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is dangerous language to accept in a binding treaty, because once it has been established it is as long as a piece of string to anybody who wants to interpret it?

Sir Richard Body : The hon. Gentleman is right to use the word "dangerous". I use the word "arrogant". It is appalling arrogance to attribute to 12 countries the description "Europe", but that appears over and again in the Maastricht treaty. One or two of my hon. Friends are

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enthusiastic about the treaty, although I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett- Bowman) beside me, who is pretty pragmatically enthusiastic about it all.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster) : Intelligently.

Sir Richard Body : Intelligently, yes.

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Mr. Bill Walker : My hon. Friend will be aware that it is customary in Scotland to teach Scottish history up to 1707 and United Kingdom history thereafter. The content of history books depends much on whether battles were won or lost.

Sir Richard Body : Indeed. We in England should learn our English, United Kingdom and European history. I was taught European history half a century ago by somebody who inspired me to take an interest in the subject, and that interest has never left me. I get rather fed up with being denounced as anti-European, because I enjoy reading about Europe and European history and have been interested in the subject for a long time.

That is one of the reasons why I am so hostile to the idea of the European Community. European history shows over and again that such ventures always end in tears. There has been no exception to that.

Mr. James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley) : Will the hon. Gentleman concede that the reference to European is not confined only to article 126 but appears on the face of the Command Paper? We are debating the treaty on European union. Is that the rich man's club of 12 or does it take in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and even Russia?

Sir Richard Body : Indeed. The right hon. Gentleman--my right hon. Friend, if I may so describe him--is right and I endorse his comments wholeheartedly. The European dimension will exclude matters of geography, history or anything to do with, for example, Bohemia, which was mentioned earlier, or Russia. Russia is part of Europe. I believe that Tschaikovsky was European. Chekhov's plays and Tolstoy's novels are European. The treaty provides for education in an European dimension, but I wonder whether literature will include Tolstoy or only those authors who came from one part of Europe--that covered by the EC.

Mr. Cryer : And given EC subsidies.

Sir Richard Body : Indeed.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : We are discussing the nonsense of describing the EC as Europe as if the rest of Europe did not exist. What shall we call this ridiculous Community when Turkey is included, 98 per cent. of which is in Asia?

Sir Richard Body : Turkey has long had an application to join the European Community, and some years ago I went to Ankara and heard their enthusiasm to join. I pointed out one or two difficulties that they might encounter, but I have since discovered that Turkey is very unlikely to be admitted, and for one very good reason of which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn) will be aware, that Germany is almost certain to veto it because--I must not speak too harshly of the Germans--they are reluctant to

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have any more Turks coming into their country, and perhaps they may be right to be reluctant, given the troubles in eastern Germany.

Mr. Marlow : My hon. Friend touched on the issue of distance education, but I do not think that he gave it as much attention as it perhaps merits. In one of our earlier debates here, one of our hon. Friends talked about satellite broadcasts of a programme called "Red Hot Danish Love". I understand that, to a certain extent, it was educational--

The Chairman : Order. That does not come under this article.

Sir Richard Body : I am disappointed, Mr. Morris. I thought that we might hear more about this "Red Hot Danish "--I forget the last word. I implore my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster to close her ears. Perhaps we should not go along that road. I think I ought to get back--

The Chairman : Order. I have some difficulty in working out where the hon. Gentleman is going. Will he address either of the two particular articles that we have before us, neither of which has anything to do with enlargement or any of the other areas that he has drifted into?

Sir Richard Body : I am very anxious to get back to the amendment that has been moved by the hon. Member for Stretford, because his speech was riddled with fallacies. In particular, he and his party should reconsider their attitude of support for Community-funded vocational training.

It is common knowledge that Mr. Gonzalez, the Prime Minister of Spain, has insisted on large sums by way of cohesion money. He threatened to veto the Maastricht treaty unless the money was advanced to Spain. This heading will, in my view, enable large sums of money to go to Spain, and it will be necessary--because Spain, and Portugal, I will allege, despite what the hon. Gentleman said, Italy and Greece, are all far behind us when it comes to vocational training. This article will enable money to be diverted from our resources to southern Europe. It is inevitable because, if we are to have fair competition throughout western Europe in the single market, we must have systems of vocational training that are more or less in line, and at present they are not. No one can say that they are in line at the moment.

Mr. Marlow : My hon. Friend is talking about vocational training, but he knows that among the amendments we are also discussing education, and he will be aware that, when article 126 says that "Community action shall be aimed at developing exchanges of information and experience on issues common to the education system of the Member States",

it means people visiting each other, going backwards and forwards ; money ; Europe ; slush fund. It could be very seductive, and it could be abused.

I would be very interested to hear my hon. Friend's views as to whether this is an appropriate use of European taxpayers' money, how it could and should be used and what constraints and controls he would put on it.

Sir Richard Body : I am sure that it will be abused. Indeed, the Court of Auditors has made it plain year after year that national Governments were ineffective in policing how Community money is spent in their own

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countries. I shall not mention the common agricultural policy because I should be ruled out of order but £5,000 million has gone astray. Our Government have been criticised by the Court of Auditors, although I am sure they behave much better than some other Governments in spending that money. There is no encouragement for Governments to ensure that Community money is properly, effectively and honestly spent.

Mr. Bill Walker : Article 126 states that Community action shall be aimed at

"encouraging the development of youth exchanges".

Few of us would disagree with that, but what is meant by "exchanges of socio-educational instructors"?

Would my hon. Friend care to comment?

Sir Richard Body : That merely confirms what I said earlier--a poet such as my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) could not have drafted a single sentence of the treaty.

Socio-economic policies--

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : The words are "socio-educational".

Sir Richard Body : I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster has spotted that. As ever, she is taking an acute interest in the subject and perhaps she will contribute to the debate later if she is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr. Morris. I was trying to give a warning, although it is perhaps not for me to do so.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : You have not said what they are--

Sir Richard Body : I was diverted. Mr. Morris, you will

The Chairman : Order. The Chair is having great difficulty hearing the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body), who appears to be having a conversation with the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett- Bowman). Will he please deal with one of the two articles so that I can follow exactly what he is saying?

Sir Richard Body : Indeed I shall, but my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster is always tempting me. I shall seek to avoid her blandishments and raise my voice to speak directly to you, Mr. Morris, as I know I should. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I step back a little from her.

Mrs. Gorman : Before my hon. Friend leaves the issue of training and the use of slush funds, I should be interested to hear his comments on the attitude revealed in article 57 and amendment No. 199. The article is sinister because it refers to the laying down of "directives for the co- ordination by law, regulation or administrative action in Member States"

in relation to the activities of self-employed persons. It is sinister because the essence of many forms of self-employment is that people can drift into them, especially when they have lost other work. If there are to be directives, laws and regulations--

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Lady's point is relevant. She has asked a question and perhaps she will now allow the hon. Member for Holland with Boston to answer.

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Sir Richard Body : I agree wholeheartedly with the point of my hon. Friend's intervention. I was self-employed before I came to the House--many of us were. A self-employed person should be sufficiently endowed to be able to decide for himself or herself what type of vocational training is suitable. It is amazing that the European Community or those who drafted the treaty should go so far as to suggest that the self-employed should take part in such schemes--it should be entirely a matter for them.

Sir Teddy Taylor : Does my hon. Friend accept that article 57 does not offer opportunities for everyone? The second sentence of paragraph 2 of article 57 refers to

"training and conditions of access for natural persons." My hon. Friend seems to have studied this matter carefully. As we know from last night, however, the Minister does not answer questions but simply reads prepared speeches. That is unfortunate, but perhaps my hon. Friend can help me. Bearing in mind the reference to "natural persons", can he tell me what unnatural persons are? Or perhaps some Opposition Member can enlighten us.

This is a very serious point. The Bill with which we are dealing is to become the law of the land. Training and access are to be provided for natural persons but not, apparently, for unnatural persons. What on earth is a natural person? May we have an assurance--

The Chairman : The hon. Gentleman must not keep asking the same question. He has asked what a natural person is. Perhaps he will allow his hon. Friend to respond.

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Sir Richard Body : My hon. Friend is, of course, right. This just goes to show how difficult it is to translate these documents into some kind of English. At one time I did a little lecturing in company law. We used to talk about "persons". A person can be a corporate entity. For example, I believe that, in law, ICI is a person.

Sir Teddy Taylor : But a natural person ?

Sir Richard Body : My hon. Friend and I are natural persons. I shall not point to anyone who might be described as anything other than a natural person ; indeed, all of us here are natural persons. In law, ICI, Unilever, Shell and all other such organisations are persons, but not natural persons.

Sir Teddy Taylor : I have great respect for my hon. Friend, who is one of the wisest people in the House, but I have to point out that he is stating what he thinks the position to be. Is there a definition anywhere ? Constituents of mine will probably have to obey these laws. When it comes to training and access, I shall have to ask, "Are you a natural person ?" My hon. Friend says that he thinks that he and I are natural persons. Where is the definition ? This is not fun ; it is a serious matter. All those who say that this Bill should be rushed through should realise that what it contains would become the law of the land. I demand that before we leave this matter we be told, by my hon. Friend or by somebody else, what the blazes a natural person is.

Sir Richard Body : My hon. Friend should not be quite so naive as to believe that the people who drafted this treaty, as well as those who will put it into effect, have very much interest in the people of Southend. The treaty

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contains many examples of the way in which it will be very difficult for ordinary people, particularly those who are self-employed, to understand the laws that govern their lives, disobedience of which may result in punishment.

Mr. Cash : Perhaps tucked away in this convoluted treaty is a reference to a Euro-person. In the light of previous debates, I believe that we are moving rapidly to the notion of a European culture in which a person will be seen as natural in the European context. This is very disturbing. Does my hon. Friend know of a recent conference in Madrid that was partially funded by the European Commission ? We are told that at that conference a certain Dr. Lenarduzzi of the Commission said that the Commission had been seeking to influence education--

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman knows his way round the treaty better than most hon. Members. I am finding it difficult to relate his remarks to article 126 or 127. Or can it be that, as the hon. Gentleman has just appeared in the Chamber, he has lost track of where we are ?

Mr. Cash : I had just reached the point about education policy and training. Dr. Lenarduzzi said that for a very long time the Commission had sought to influence education policy, especially through selective financial support. He admitted that under the treaty of Rome there was no remit to do this, and that therefore these provisions were being used to legitimise something that was known to be not within the vires of the existing treaty.

Sir Richard Body : I did touch upon what that gentleman said, because he is a Commissioner and he was speaking about the powers of the Commission as at present and how he sought to extend them. Reading the extracts from the speech that I have seen, he seemed to revel in the prospect of the enhanced powers that he would have as a Commissioner in deciding matters of education and vocational training.

This illustrates again, and very vividly, that as Commissioner he will be in charge, and he sees more power going to him. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster, as we all know, is an intelligent European and has credentials in this field. But she feels some dismay that this Commissioner was boasting--I do not think that that is an unfair word- -that he would have so much more power.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : There was a reference to ultra vires persons ; I was saying that these are intra vires persons, since legal language is being used.

Sir Richard Body : My hon. Friend shares with me the distinction, although I am not sure that it is a distinction, of having both been a barrister and a farmer. I know that she is well aware of the law on this subject. The Commissioner in question was hinting that he, as Commissioner for education, was exceeding his powers and therefore acting ultra vires, to use my hon. Friend's expression, when in future they will be intra vires and he will have the power to do things that he cannot do at the moment.

That is why some of us feel very concerned about this article, and indeed other articles, and why we believe that the people of this country should be alerted to how powers

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are moving away from here to Brussels, to be exercised by someone who boasts as does the Commissioner whose name I fear that I cannot pronounce.

Mr. Bill Walker : I am sorry to trouble my hon. Friend again, but does he really think that the socio-educational instructor is a natural person? He can be a schoolteacher or a youth leader, but, whoever he is, do we really need a treaty in law to define what he is? If we intend to encourage the movement of people, can we not do so on a basis that makes good sense, and in good English?

Sir Richard Body : Indeed, my hon. Friend is right, and I endorse those views entirely. To some extent there may be a need for international co-operation in matters of education and, if there is, I would think that the Council of Europe was well equipped to do what is necessary. Indeed, it would be able to speak for virtually all Europe, other than parts of what was the Soviet Union. As I understand it--you will correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Morris, as a former member of the Council of Europe--it already has a cultural and educational dimension.

Mr. Beggs : The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the excellent educational arrangements that we have in Northern Ireland. We respect the rights of those who wish to send their children to church schools, we have an excellent state system, grammar and secondary schools, and we have an integrated system. If this treaty is to proceed headlong, is there a risk that there will not be recognition of the rights of those who wish to make choices in Northern Ireland? In one section of article 126 we see that Community action shall be aimed at

"promoting co-operation between educational establishments". But then, further down, it also says that the Council,

"acting by a qualified majority on a proposal from the Commission, shall adopt recommendations."

Is it conceivable that it might ultimately be said that in Northern Ireland there should be only integrated education? Will we be directed ultimately from Brussels as to what is best for our young people?

Sir Richard Body : That is how I understand it. I wonder what my hon. Friend the Secretary of State will say in response. The matter is one of many to which we should have a response. Northern Ireland has high standards. It is the part of the United Kingdom which has more university places per head of population.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Because of the grammar schools.

Sir Richard Body : I am not sure about that. Lincolnshire has kept grammar schools, but it does not yet have a university. We hope to have one. I must not digress to talk about a university in Lincolnshire except to say that we hope to have one by the turn of the century, subject to what the Minister of State says about it. I do not think that there is a causal relationship.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : I was not suggesting a causal relationship between grammar schools and a local university. I was suggesting a causal relationship between the excellence which a grammar school education gives and the capacity of its students to get to university. It does not need to be in Lincoln ; it could be in Lancaster, where we have an exceptionally good grammar school.

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The Chairman : Clearly, it is not in Brussels and is not relevant to the article, interesting though it is.

Sir Richard Body : I am sorely tempted to describe my visit to Lancaster university, but I will not. There should be concern in Northern Ireland about the Commissioners having the power to propose education schemes, as, indeed, in Scotland where there is and has been for generations a much higher standard than has prevailed in most of England.

Under the article, it is plain that the Commissioners will have the power to propose education schemes to include Northern Ireland. Such schemes would be to the detriment of Northern Ireland at present. At the Council of Ministers, if we have United Kingdom representatives who wish to object to that, I hope that they will.

The hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs) may agree that representatives from the United Kingdom who are attending the Council of Ministers may not always have the interests of the United Kingdom uppermost in their minds. One can be sure that the interests of Northern Ireland might have to be lowered in preference to the interests of some other parts of the United Kingdom or the United Kingdom as a whole. Certainly, we should be concerned that the Commissioners may propose education schemes which could include Northern Ireland. I hope that my hon. Friend the Secretary of State will deal with that point categorically.

Under this article, the Commission will have the power to allocate money or propose the allocation of money by way of incentives to a national Government to adopt schemes which the Commissioners have introduced. That is a dangerous practice. The danger is heightened by the fact that a majority will vote on the issue. When it comes to majority voting, my hon. Friend will agree that Northern Ireland will not have a good chance. As someone with Ulster blood in his veins, I regret that.

The hon. Member for Stretford was making a grave mistake on behalf of his party. I hope that the Back Benchers behind him will see the danger in his argument that vocational training schemes should be devised in Brussels. If vocational training schemes are devised in Brussels, we can be sure that the amount of money available will be limited.

If the amount of money available is to be parcelled up equally, those who represent Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece will insist on more money than the northern European countries. They will say, "It is not fair. We are behind northern Europe in vocational training so we cannot compete fairly in the single market." One can hear the Spaniards saying, "We already have 10 per cent. out of work. We shall have even more if we have to face competition from northern Europe. We must have vocational training as good as that which pertains in northern Europe."

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