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(No. 4) Bill-- (By Order)
[Lords] (By Order)
(By Order)
(By Order)
Bill-- [Lords] (By Order)
[Lords] (By Order) River Humber (Upper Burcom Cooling Works) Bill-- [Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 28 January 1993.
1. Mr. Jacques Arnold : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what were the levels of investment from abroad in 1991-92.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Robert Atkins) : In 1991-92, 430 new jobs were promoted from new green field investment, with negotiations under way on a number of additional projects. I am delighted that announcements about some of these additional projects have since been made and that others can be expected shortly.
Mr. Arnold : Given the unfortunate perception abroad of the situation in Northern Ireland, is not it important that approaches to foreign investors be made on a co-operative and in many ways a joint basis? In view of that, will my hon. Friend comment on the recent initiatives in that regard by the hon. Members of Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) and for Belfast, West (Dr. Hendron)?
Mr. Atkins : My hon. Friend is right. The hon. Gentlemen to whom he refers will know the success of their trip. It highlights the fact that the communities can work together and the importance of investment from
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other parts of the world and shows that aims that are important to the whole Province can be achieved by parliamentary colleagues as well as those in industry.Rev. Martin Smyth : Will the Minister enlarge on his answer? We welcome the 400 new jobs. Were they created by new firms or are the expansion of existing firms? How many foreign investment firms folded in Northern Ireland in 1992?
Mr. Atkins : I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a detailed answer to his second question withour prior notice, but I shall, of course, write to him with the details. As everyone is aware, during the recession Northern Ireland, like everywhere else, has had a hard time. Not as many jobs were created in 1991-92 as one would have wished, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that in the latter part of last year and already in the early part of this year good news has been announced. I have hopes of more in the future.
Rev. William McCrea : Does the Minister appreciate the extent of the deprivation and unemployment in my constituency? Does he accept that it will take tremendous Government help and initiative to encourage people from abroad to come to the Province and especially to the west of the Province? Will he assure the House that, to that end, he will give every encouragement and assistance to hon. Members?
Mr. Atkins : Of course, I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will not let up in our attempt to get investment to all parts of Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman will recall that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State was in the hon. Gentleman's constituency recently and I have fond memories of that visit there. I shall continue to do my best not only for the hon. Gentleman's constituency but for all the Northern Ireland constituencies.
Mr. McGrady : The Minister will be aware that inward investment should be available to all areas of Northern Ireland. I draw his attention to the novelty by which, in the past three years, of 875 first visits only 10 were to South Down. That is less than 1 per cent. If we are to have equal opportunity and fair employment, new inward investment must, as far as possible, be directed to the rural areas. Does he agree that the excuse that inward investment inquiries require urbanised areas does not hold water because South Down is only 10 miles from the centre of Belfast and the docks, and the southern half has a new modern dock facility of its own?
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman never lets up in fighting his corner for his patch and quite right, too. That is true of all Northern Ireland Members. I am aware of his concern and I have taken it up with the Industrial Development Board. The hon. Gentleman is an understanding chap who appreciates these matters and knows that it is sometimes difficult to attract companies to rural areas, even those as beautiful as his constituency. We take his caution to heart. I know that the hon. Gentleman does an enormous amount of work trying to establish a link with Chicago and I have hopes that we may be able to attract companies from that great city to his constituency. I am happy to help the hon. Gentleman in achieving his objectives.
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2. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on new political initiatives in Northern Ireland.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : The Northern Ireland parties that participated in last year's talks agreed with the two Governments that further dialogue was desirable and necessary. I am continuing informal consultations with party leaders about the way ahead. I expect to meet Mr. Dick Spring, Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs in the new Irish Government, tomorrow. There is important unfinished business to be addressed.
Mr. Skinner : Does the Secretary of State ever get in touch with the United Nations about sorting out the problems in Northern Ireland? Every time that I am in the Chamber for Foreign Office questions, I hear that Britain is poking its nose into or is supporting peacekeeping forces in several countries throughout the world, including Croatia, Bosnia, Somalia and Iraq. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman ever consider that one fine day someone might suggest, now that Clinton has been elected, that the United Nations should sort out the problems in Northern Ireland? What would be the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman is an occasional supporter of United Nations intervention and now he suggests that it should intervene in Northern Ireland. I am a strong supporter of the human rights that the United Nations was founded to preserve. It is because I am determined to uphold the human rights denied to so many people by the terrorists that I support the British Government's policy in the way that I do. I believe that with the support of the people of Northern Ireland, there will be no need to trouble the United Nations or anybody else.
Mr. Peter Robinson : In his controversial speech in Coleraine, the Secretary of State described Government policy as being that of a facilitator--they would facilitate Northern Ireland remaining in the United Kingdom if that were its wish, but with equal joy and alacrity they would support a united Ireland if that were the wish of the people of Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State come down off the fence long enough to say whether his is still a Unionist party?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have sometimes thought that the controversy associated with my speech in Coleraine is a manufactured one. Nothing of substance in that speech had not been said by my distinquished predecessor at least two years ago. There was nothing in my remarks concerning the Union to occasion surprise to anyone. I said that as long as the greater number of people living in Northern Ireland wanted to continue being a part of the United Kingdom, that would be warmly, solemnly and sincerely respected and upheld. If, on the other hand, the day should come when the majority wanted some other citizenship, the British Government would not stand in the way. I find it difficult to see any point of principle that would be supported in the House which would lead to a contrary conclusion.
Mr. Maginnis : Does the Secretary of State agree that during the previous round of talks on the political future
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of Northern Ireland, we pretty well exhausted the process whereby all parties sit round one table and that the next stage must inevitably be a bilateral approach? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman further agree that at the very end of the previous talks, the Ulster Unionist party put a fair and generous proposal on the table which has yet to be addressed and to receive a response from the Irish Government? Is not it the Secretary of State's wish that the Irish Government should respond positively to the matters that were placed before them? Until they do, it will be extremely difficult to move any process forward.Sir Patrick Mayhew : There were times when I thought that the process was exhausting ourselves, but I do not believe that we exhausted the opportunities for meeting all together round a table. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that much useful work was done in a more informal format towards the end. It is certainly true that the hon. Gentleman's party put forward a paper on 9 November and the hon. Gentleman heard me say a moment ago that we have unfinished business to address.
Sir James Kilfedder : The Irish Foreign Minister, Dick Spring--who has a distinguished record as a rugby player--has now become a powerhouse in Dublin politics. When the Secretary of State meets Mr. Spring tomorrow, will he welcome Mr. Spring's promise of a new dawn in relations with Northern Ireland, while urging him not to make it a false dawn that would give further encouragement to the IRA and any other terrorists in Northern Ireland?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I do not believe that any member of the new Irish Government wishes to give any encouragement to the IRA. In that regard, the Irish Government are absolutely in line with Her Majesty's Government. I am greatly looking forward to tomorrow's meeting ; I think that I had better leave it to take place, rather than going with extracts from what Mr. Spring or anyone else may have said particularly in mind.
Mr. Mallon : The Secretary of State will agree that much solid and analytical work was done during the recent talks. We all welcome that. Does the Secretary of State also agree, however, that, if we are to achieve a far-reaching, comprehensive agreement that will bring permanent peace to Northern Ireland, we must face the real, positive, intractable problems?
May I suggest that, in any future talks, those problems are put at the top of the agenda and faced head on? We should not put them lower down on the agenda and hope that they will go away. If we take such action, we shall be starting from a positive viewpoint, rather than simply postponing the day when a further end will come to further talks, thus inflicting more damage on the whole political psyche in Northern Ireland.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The good sense of the hon. Gentleman's remarks augurs well for future talks and for the contribution that he himself will make.
Mr. Hunter : May we be more specific? Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that more flexibility on the part of the Government of the Republic regarding articles 2 and 3 would greatly help the prospect of a resumption of meaningful constitutional talks? If so, will he make specific reference to that in his dialogue with the Government of the Republic?
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Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who takes a close interest in the Province. Having just endorsed the principle enunciated by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), I think that I would be unwise to allow myself to be led into discussion of particular applications of that principle ; but I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. McNamara : I am sure that the House appreciates the wisdom of that last comment. We do not want to start discussing the Government of Ireland Act 1920.
Does the Secretary of State expect, following tomorrow's meeting with Mr. Spring, to be able to announce the date of the next intergovernmental conference? Will he be able to discuss with Mr. Spring not only the unfinished business to which he referred, but a firm programme of work in regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government stand by the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which provides for
intergovernmental conferences at frequent and regular intervals. I do not doubt that we shall arrange for such a conference to take place at an early stage.
Mr. Peter Bottomley : One of the most welcome political initiatives is the letter that the Prime Minister sent to the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party about the events that took place in Derry just over 20 years ago. Would not it be a welcome move towards justice--even in retrospect--for my right hon. and learned Friend to announce at some stage that those people should not have been shot and that, following the shooting, the tribunal should not have allowed any slur or cloud to remain over them?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : We are approaching the anniversary of a very sad occasion. I am afraid that the history of Ireland is littered with occasions of great sadness which--because they involve deaths--cause regret to all sensible people. I think it unwise, however, to reopen discussion of matters that were subject to a judicial inquiry many years ago and I do not propose to do so.
3. Ms. Hoey : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to improve travel links between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
Mr. Atkins : Over the period 1989-93 almost £180 million will have been spent on improvements to Northern Ireland's ports, airports, railway and roads systems, with the primary objective of improving Northern Ireland's transport links with the rest of the United Kingdom and the continent. The Northern Ireland transportation operational programme, which is administered by the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland, is contributing £120 million towards these works by way of grant from the European regional development fund.
Ms. Hoey : The Minister will agree that it is becoming increasingly difficult for people in Northern Ireland to travel to the rest of the United Kingdom because of the expense involved and the lack of sea crossings. Most people have to travel by air. Does the Minister agree that
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it is nonsense that I should pay £198 return to go to Belfast with British Airways while, on the same day, someone else pays £196 return to travel to Boston with Virgin Atlantic Airways and Richard Branson? Might not it be a good idea to call in Richard Branson to sit round a table with British Airways and British Midland to work out a cheaper fare to Belfast, so that people can travel more easily to and from the rest of the United Kingdom?Mr. Atkins : I have considerable sympathy with the hon. Lady's remarks in the context of air fares both regional and international--a matter with which I had something to do when I was a Minister with responsibility for transport in Great Britain. It is a difficult problem because to reduce fares one needs the agreement of other countries as well as the country from which one wishes to fly. I do not entirely agree with the hon. Lady that transportation between Great Britain and Northern Ireland has deteriorated--indeed, the SeaCat service from Belfast to Stranraer is now so popular that the company has announced that it will be introducing another such service in the spring to meet the demand. That is a sign that not all links are quite as difficult as the hon. Lady suggests.
4. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will arrange to meet representatives of the new Government of the Republic of Ireland to discuss cross-border co-operation.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I look forward to meeting the Tanaiste and Foreign Minister, Mr. Spring, tomorrow.
Mr. Canavan : Is not it self-evident that the best form of cross- border co-operation would be to work for the creation of conditions that led to the disappearance of the border? Will the Secretary of State make it absolutely clear that he will restart a meaningful dialogue in that respect, involving all parties interested in a non-violent solution? Will he also make it absolutely clear that if any party or parties should threaten to boycott the talks, meaningful dialogue will nevertheless proceed? I say that because any party unwilling to participate in democratic debate should not have a veto on democratic constitutional change.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman knows that I wish talks to take place. I take comfort from the fact that, at the conclusion of the previous talks on 10 November, all parties agreed with the statement of the independent chairman that the objectives were valid and achievable and that it was desirable and necessary that further talks should take place. I am very glad about that.
As to working for the removal of the border, I am afraid that that is a proposition whose simplicity--not to say its quality of being simplistic-- has in the past characterised rather too many English ideas for the solution of Irish problems.
Mr. Molyneaux : As British subjects have been under fire from the territory of the Republic, will the Secretary of State place at the top of his agenda for his meeting with Mr. Spring the need for greatly increased security co-operation along the frontier--especially at a time when there is much misunderstanding about the removal of certain controls and frontiers elsewhere in Europe?
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Sir Patrick Mayhew : The right hon. Gentleman refers to the disgraceful incident at Mullan bridge in County Fermanagh a fortnight or so ago. It is right to recall that, on that occasion, there was close co- operation between the Garda Siochana and the Royal Ulster Constabulary and that, shortly after the incident, a man was arrested by the Garda Siochana in connection with it.
There is close co-operation although, of course, it can always be improved. That is one of the matters that I am looking forward to discussing--as we generally do--at the intergovernmental conferences. I agree that there is much misunderstanding about the effect of the Single European Act and the arrival of the single market. That has no bearing on the need for really close security control over crossing points at the border.
Dr. Hendron : When the Secretary of State meets Mr. Dick Spring and other members of the Irish Government, will he use those meetings to try to encourage some of the top 500 companies in the Republic to set up in Northern Ireland and, in particular, in deprived areas such as west and north Belfast?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I warmly support all ideas for investment in Northern Ireland. I was very surprised at how little trade to and fro, between north and south, there had been until quite recent years. That situation is improving and I want to encourage it.
Mr. Stott : To follow the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Dr. Hendron), the Secretary of State will be aware that the whole of the island of Ireland has category 1 status and that the Republic of Ireland has access to the cohesion fund. Given that the internal market in Europe is now fully operational, what proposals will the Secretary of State be making to the Government of the Republic so that the whole of the island of Ireland can benefit from the new arrangements and not suffer as a consequence of its peripherality to mainland Europe?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : Objective 1 status is extremely important and I am very pleased that our representations resulted in that status being retained for Northern Ireland. Although Northern Ireland is peripheral to the mainland of Europe, it none the less represents just as effective a gateway to the common market as any location, for example, in the centre of France or Germany. There is much to be said for co-operation between the Republic and the United Kingdom to ensure that we get the best advantage from our common membership of the European Community. That lies behind a very important part of our policy.
6. Mr. Trimble : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on progress in having up-to-date statutory development plans for all areas.
Mr. Atkins : With the exception of the Craigavon district council area and the rural areas of Newtownabbey and Castlereagh, all parts of Northern Ireland are covered by statutory development plans. A plan for the Newtownabbey area is being prepared at present and it is intended to start work on plans for the Craigavon and Castlereagh areas later this year.
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Mr. Trimble : We have had a statutory framework for town and country planning in Northern Ireland for 20 years. However, as the Minister said, there is still no statutory development plan in Craigavon. Does the Minister agree that informal, non-statutory plans of dubious standing are no substitute and that we need a formal plan as soon as possible with a clear Government commitment to the development of Craigavon and especially the regeneration of Lurgan town centre?
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman has been assiduous in representing the cause of his constituents, particularly following the damage to Lurgan after that dreadful bomb. He has been to see me and, as he knows, I have met representatives of the council. I am very conscious of the deficiency to which I referred in my main answer and I will do what I can to ensure that the problems of the hon. Gentleman's constituents, and of Lurgan in particular, are addressed as soon as possible.
7. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the level of home ownership in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins : By the end of May 1992, the total number of owner- occupied properties was 358,500 or 66 per cent. of the total housing stock. More than 52,000 of those owner-occupiers have bought their houses from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive under its voluntary sales scheme while a further 11,800 have entered home-ownership through the co-ownership scheme operated by the Northern Ireland Co-ownership Housing Association.
Mr. Marshall : May I congratulate my hon. Friend on that answer which demonstrates that Government policies have enabled many people to enjoy home ownership for whom 15 years ago it was only a dream? Does he agree with me, however, that, important as home ownership is, it is also important to help those in the lowest income groups? Will he therefore welcome the additional finance made available to the Northern Ireland Office for that purpose?
Mr. Atkins : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is right to point to the increase in home ownership. In 1986, not very long ago, the figure was 59 per cent., so a rise of seven per cent. to 66 per cent. is quite noticeable. My hon. Friend's point about the Northern Ireland tranche of the £750 million made available by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very important. It is in the process of providing homes for those in desperate need and will, to an extent, help the Housing Executive in its treatment of this particularly intractable problem.
8. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest talks he has had with Ministers in the Irish Republic concerning progress in the political talks relating to Northern Ireland.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am meeting Mr. Spring tomorrow.
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Mr. Winnick : The whole House will welcome the fact that these talks are to take place, and one hopes that further discussions will take place with the new Irish Government. When they do, will both Governments make it clear how they deplore the continued killings such as, for example, that of the woman last weekend in Northern Ireland who was murdered for no other reason than that she happened to be a Catholic and those of the many who are murdered for no other reason than that they happen to be Protestant? Is not such ethnic cleansing as unacceptable and as much a crime against humanity as what is happening, albeit on a far larger scale, in what was Yugoslavia?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman, who is invariably humane and balanced in his interest in Northern Ireland, is absolutely right : the killings that take place, whether caused by terrorists from one quarter of the community or another, are inexcusable, indefensible and fundamentally inhumane, and I do not doubt that my colleagues in the Government of the Republic take precisely the same view and will express it. What we must do is bear down, through the Royal Ulster Constabulary and with the Army in support, upon all organisations that are committed to the use of violence to gain political ends and always call upon people in the community to have the courage to come forward and, when they have the information, to tell the RUC what they know. These people will be defeated in the end, not simply by the security forces but by the people of Northern Ireland--and defeated they will be.
Mr. Bellingham : Will my right hon. and learned Friend be raising with the new Irish Foreign Minister the point about articles 2 and 3 of the Republic's constitution? Will he agree with me that until these two articles are reviewed, the chance of political talks succeeding is very slim?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I do not wish to be drawn into speculation about the chances of success or failure. I think that the whole House wants these talks to succeed and recognises that, in the matters to be discussed, articles 2 and 3 will play an important part.
Mr. William Ross : Surely the Secretary of State will now realise that the expression that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed is no more than a bit of flotsam left behind the talks that ended last year, so that there is now no reason why progress should not be made where progress is easily possible.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman has always taken a rather uncharacteristically morose view about the talks process, or so it seems to me ; it is not a view which was shared by those taking part--and I am sorry that he was not of their number. I think that all the participants will want to consult together as to how best to take the talks forward, what formation and so forth, but I do not think that we will share the hon. Gentleman's rather gloomy view.
9. Mr. Clifford Forsythe : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what capital investment was spent on water and sewerage services in Northern Ireland during each year since 1988-89.
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Mr. Atkins : The capital investment for new construction and improvement on water services during the years in question was £13.9 million, £16.2 million, £20.6 million and £21 million respectively. The corresponding figures for sewerage services were £12.6 million, £12.4 million, £12.4 million and £16.2 million.
Mr. Forsythe : I thank the Minister for his information, but, in view of the well-known and total outrage at the idea of privatisting water and sewerage services in Northern Ireland, may I assure him that while, during all the talks, cross-community support could not be found for many things, in this case there will be total cross-community opposition to any proposals to privatise water and sewerage services in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins : I am not unaware of the hon. Gentleman's view on this matter, or indeed of the views of other hon. Members from Northern Ireland. As he knows, the Government commitment is that we will privatise as soon as practicable--by 1995 or 1996--but, of course, no firm decisions have been taken on the detail and I am open to consider any views that hon. Gentlemen may wish to put about the methods by which we privatise the water service.
Mr. McNamara : Nevertheless, can the Minister confirm that the proposed sale will be a trade sale--that is, that the people of Northern Ireland will not have the opportunity to buy individual shares if they should so wish? Will he, after he has given figures to the House of the amount of public investment that has already gone into the water and sewage industry, indicate to the House that, in terms of moneys being charged, this valuable Northern Ireland asset will not be sold for less than £500 million?
Mr. Atkins : I cannot confirm what the hon. Gentleman implies, that any decision at all has been made on the method of sale. We are still awaiting the feasibility study and when we get the results of that we shall be in a better position to judge. We have already said that we will consult. So far as capital investment is concerned, we have a rolling programme of investment, as required not only by the European Economic Community but by the need to modernise and bring up to date. We are committed to spending, over the next three years, £49 million, £79 million and £83 million in total on these most important services.
10. Mr. Beggs : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if the regulator for electricity in Northern Ireland will prepare a report on how he envisages supply competition to being available to large users within Northern Ireland after the transitional introductory period of the new bulk supply tariff ; and if he will make a statement on the report provided to him by the regulator.
Mr. Atkins : The Director General of Electricity Supply for Northern Ireland has complete responsibility for the development of competition in the supply of electricity. I have therefore arranged for him to write to the hon. Gentleman directly on this matter.
Mr. Beggs : I shall await with interest the reply that is on the horizon. Is the Minister aware of just how serious the situation is, in that the higher electricity costs facing large
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users threaten the viability of some companies, which may be forced to relocate to Great Britain? With the resultant job losses, that would be disastrous. Will he take note of the fact that the failure by the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Scotland to extend the Non-fossil Fuel Obligation Renewables Order 1991 to Northern Ireland and Scotland is preventing expansion and job creation in my own constituency, where a company has an outstanding record in manufacturing hydro-generating plant?Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman has raised this matter with me on numerous occasions and he knows what the Government's view is. I hope that he realises just how sympathetic the Government are to the concern that he expresses. I have also been in constant contact with a number of the large users in the Province, who have represented their concerns to me in terms not only of their own businesses, but of potential inward investment or development of the particular processes to which he refers. I can assure him that I shall continue to take this matter most seriously and to consider it as a matter of importance to ensure that the concerns that he represents are addressed in any way possible.
Lady Olga Maitland : What assurances will my hon. Friend give to the major users of electricity in Northern Ireland that the new price regime will not undermine the profitability of their businesses?
Mr. Atkins : It is fair to say that the large users in Northern Ireland have benefited from the arrangements over many years, but they have been paid for by domestic and smaller commercial users, to their detriment. Clearly, therefore, the resolution of this difficult imbalance has caused some heartburn among the very large users, but is pleasing those further down the scale. As I have indicated, I am very concerned about this matter and I have represented those views, as put to me by hon. Members and industrialists, to my colleagues within the Department of Trade and Industry. I hope that in due course we may be able to see some alleviation of the position, but in the short term it is still a difficult problem.
Mr. Foulkes : If the Minister is genuinely worried about the high cost of electricity in Northern Ireland, why is he promoting the interconnector with Scotland, which will provide high-cost electricity, instead of the Ballymoney lignite proposal or Kilroot phase II which will provide much cheaper electricity as well as jobs in Northern Ireland? Is it not the Minister's job to provide cheap electricity as well as jobs in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins : I would say to the hon. Gentleman, who has waged war on this issue with a great lack of success so far, largely because he flies in the face of the facts, that Kilroot phase II was tendered for against the lignite and lignite lost because of its not being the right price. The lignite to which the hon. Gentleman referred would take much longer to develop than is his contention and would not be available to meet the shortfall of power to which he referred. The hon. Gentleman should be aware of the environmental consequences of building a substantial opencast mine in the middle of Ballymoney with the effects on the water table, the roads and the environment. It is convenient for the hon. Gentleman to sit there
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representing a seat in Scotland and tell Northern Ireland that it should scour its countryside for the benefit of his constituents.11. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to counter terrorist activities ; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Mates) : Since my right hon. and learned Friend answered a similar question on 26 November 1992, there have been nine deaths as a result of the security situation in Northern Ireland, including eight civilians and one soldier from the Royal Irish Regiment.
The determination of the Government and the security forces is unequivocal : terrorism will be defeated through the vigorous, impartial and effective actions--within the law--of the police, supported by the army and the general public. The security forces continue to deter and prevent many attacks and bring the perpetrators to justice.
Mr. Thurnham : Can my hon. Friend confirm that security co-operation with the Republic has improved since-- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. One of his colleagues is on his feet.
Mr. Thurnham : Can my hon. Friend confirm that security co-operation with the Republic has improved since the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement? Will he ensure that the terrorists never win, despite the attitude of the Labour party?
Mr. Mates : I do not speak for the Labour party. Many Labour Members are as determined as the Government to resist all forms of terrorism within the United Kingdom and anywhere else.
To answer the first question, I can confirm that there has been a major improvement in security co-operation between the forces of law and order, north and south, on the island of Ireland since the signing of the Anglo- Irish Agreement. The agreement has resulted in several major successes against the terrorists, their finances and some of the rackets that they run as well as against those who plot to bomb and kill.
Mr. John D. Taylor : Does the Minister accept that terrorism is defeated by security policies and political leadership from the Government? Does he recognise that there has been a rapid increase in loyalist terrorist violence every year since the imposition of the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985? Last year, loyalist terrorists killed more people than the republican terrorists. Does the Minister accept that the controversial speech made by the Secretary of State in Coleraine in December has done nothing to reduce support for loyalist terrorism, which we condemn?
Mr. Mates : No, I do not accept that my right hon. and learned Friend's speech could in any way have been interpreted as giving any comfort to terrorists from either side of the divide. I confirm that there is simply no military solution to the problem. There must be a political progress, which is why my right hon. and learned Friend
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