House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Jan 1993

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I conclude with the opinion of Eldred Tabachnik, who I believe is well thought of in Labour party and union circles :

"The Bill is rife with ambiguities and uncertainties. The particular exemptions permitted and the division between exception and registration appear to have no coherent theme. And on crucial issues like the 80 per cent. rule and the effective scope of the registration provisions, the Bill provides no clear guidance for retailers."

That sums up very well why the House should reject the Bill. Although the hon. Member for Ogmore has given a generous promise of amendments in Committee, I believe that the Bill is fundamentally flawed. It is designed to close shops rather than to open them. The Bill should not receive its Second Reading today.

12.7 pm

Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I disagreed with some of the points made by the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman), but at least I found his remarks far more logical than those made by the hon Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) who claimed to speak on behalf of that great city. He expressed concern about the commercial and tourist trades. He would have been far more plausible, at a stroke, if he had supported us when we fought to remove tolls on the Severn crossing. Those tolls are a positive deterrent to cross-channel trade and the reason why so few people from Wales now visit Bristol. They are also a major burden for people from Wales who work on the other side of the channel.

I recognise that the Sunday trading issue is very complex. I have noticed that many of the big companies have not been prepared to accept the law as it stands. Likewise, some of our local authorities have, for various reasons, been reluctant to take action against them. It has been said that the law is an ass. With such conduct on the part of the big companies, the law has certainly been undermined. As parliamentarians, we should certainly safeguard against that. There are anomalies in the list of goods which can be sold on Sunday. Overall, there is now a recognition that the Shops Act 1950 needs to be brought up to date.

The Bill introduced by my good friend the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) meets the needs of the day. My hon. Friend is a staunch trade unionist who hails from the Rhondda valley. Throughout his life he has fought for the interests of working people. I feel sad and disappointed that the trade unions have not been able to present a united front on this issue. There is something in the old adage : united we stand, divided we fall. That may be the case on this occasion.

It has been said that the Labour movement in Britain owes more to Methodism than to Marx. That may be so, but I know that in the Labour movement a person has the right to exercise his or her conscience. I intend to exercise my conscience today and vote in favour of my hon. Friend's Bill. What is more, many of my constituents have written, urging me to do so.

Mr. Jenkin : Does the hon. Gentleman not see the irony in that he takes upon himself the right to exercise his conscience and, by doing so, seeks to take away the right of citizens to exercise their individual consciences?

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Mr. Hughes : I have no wish to do that at all. I am here as the bona fide representative of the people of Newport, East and I have been elected on eight consecutive occasions at general elections. I would not claim to be a devout Christian, although I attend church from time to time. However I do not wish to walk down the main street of Newport or of any other town in the United Kingdom and witness all the shops being open as they are on the other six days of the week. Over the years--indeed, over the centuries- -the rhythm and pattern of our lives has been shaped by the seven-day cycle and the fact that one day of the week--Sunday--is different from the rest. To ignore and try to change that pattern can lead only to more stress and more nervous disorders, which are already prevalent in our society today.

Sunday is different, and long may it remain. It is a day perhaps for the family. I have been blessed, Mr. Lofthouse, with a happy family life.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : Order. I hesitate to intervene. It is probably because we have spent so much time in Committee in the past week that the hon. Member has lost his way. With all his experience in the House, I am sure that he knows how to address the Chair.

Mr. Hughes : We need to pay more attention to family values if we are to maintain the stability of our society. The partial breakdown of family life, together with heavy unemployment, has played a major part in the ever-escalating crime figures which give such cause for concern.

In conclusion, I fully realise the need to bring the law up to date. In that regard, the principles of the Bill are worth supporting : first, to guarantee a common day off for family and community activities, including church worship ; secondly, to ensure rhythm in people's lives, balancing work and recreation ; thirdly, to protect vulnerable sections, the retail work force and those employed in ancillary services, from pressure to work unusual hours.

We had an important case in Newport only a matter of weeks ago when Spar grocers insisted that their work force work until 11 o'clock at night. When the workers objected, they were arbitrarily dismissed. That is the reality of the matter as I see it.

I can support the principles contained in my hon. Friend's Bill with a clear conscience. I will be supporting the Bill in the Lobby this afternoon. The second Reading is essentially a debate on principle. There can be no mass adjustments in the Committee on the Bill, but the principle overall is a good one. Keep Sundays special is a declaration which the House should wholeheartedly support. 12.16 pm

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : I hope that it will assist the House if I intervene with a Government view at this point. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell)--I am sorry that he is not in his place to hear this--on winning such a high place in the ballot for private Members' Bills and on the sincerity and humour, which I much enjoyed, with which he introduced his Bill this morning. It was natural and right that he should devote his opportunity to Sunday

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trading because I know, having listened to him before, that he has taken a long, close and principled interest in the issue. Like the rest of us, the hon. Gentleman feels that the Shops Act 1950 is outdated. Again like the rest of us, he is deeply concerned that it is so little respected, so widely disregarded and difficult for local authorities to enforce. Like him, the Government and, indeed, the whole House believe that it is high time that the issue is resolved so that the law is clear, commands general respect and can be effectively applied. Where views diverge is how that is to be achieved.

My predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame A. Rumbold), whom I am delighted to see in her place, made an excellent and thoughtful speech. She voluntarily spent much time trying in vain to create common ground between the different campaign groups.

Similar differences of view are to be found on both sides of the House. That is why the Government are taking the unusual course of preparing a Bill which will put before the House the three main options for change--the Scottish option of total deregulation, the Shopping Hours Reform Council scheme and the Keep Sunday Special model. The options have established support in the country, in the retail trade and in Parliament. The House can examine them, contrast them and compare their likely effects before coming to a conclusion. We are working on that Bill now. The speed with which it will be completed depends very much on what prompt guidance and clarification the Shopping Hours Reform Council and the Keep Sunday Special campaign can give us about their detailed intentions, as compared with their well-understood, overall objections, so that we can reflect them accurately in the drafting of the Government's Bill. I shall be disappointed if we cannot have our Bill ready in a few weeks so that if a legislative opportunity presents itself this Session, we can take it. That is what I and my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary would like to do. But I have to tell my hon. Friends and the House that the overhang of business currently before the House is such that I do not hold out much prospect of introducing the Bill before the beginning of the new Session in the autumn.

Mr. Cormack : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend wants to intervene. I am anxious not to be diverted on a range of questions. I will give way to my hon. Friend on this point, but I hope that the House will forgive me if I do not do so much more.

Mr. Cormack : It is important that this point is clarified beyond any misunderstanding. Can we take it from what my hon. Friend has said that there is no realistic chance of the Government's Bill being on the statute book before next Christmas?

Mr. Lloyd : It is extremely unlikely, but I never give up hope. Today we are debating not the Government's planned Bill, but the Bill which the hon. Member for Ogmore has presented to the House today. As the hon. Gentleman made clear, it is very much the Keep Sunday Special option. It is on that Bill and that option that I shall concentrate during the rest of my speech. I do not wish to range too widely. As I have just said, I shall not seek to

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respond to the points made during the debate, much as I am tempted to do so, because I am aware that many right hon. and hon. Members are anxious to take part. I, for one, should like to hear all of them before we come to a conclusion at 2.30 pm.

The overall objective of the Bill is to keep Sunday as a special day--at least as far as retailing is concerned--but to make fair and reasonable allowance for shopping activities that the hon. Gentleman regards as consistent with the specialness of Sunday by allowing smaller shops to remain open on Sunday to sell goods required for recreation, emergencies, social gatherings and travel.

Large and medium-sized foodstores, DIY shops, carpet and furniture stores of any size will be shut. For some purposes listed in schedule 1 an outlet of any size may open to sell only petrol, or only medical and surgical appliances. Off licences, restaurants and take-aways may also open. That is a clear and very limited list, to which is added another category which may prove to be anything but clear and not nearly as limited as the hon. Member intends. That is any shop situated at a railway, bus or coach station or in the terminal buildings of a harbour, seaport or hoverport.

I suspect that the hon. Member may be surprised at the vigorous retail development that he may unleash at such travel points if his Bill becomes law. The parade of shops at Victoria station may give him a restrained pretaste of what could be in store.

Elsewhere only some shops of less than 1,500 sq ft may open on a Sunday. That is shops of, say, 50ft by 30ft or less. Anything larger will have to shut. That size limit is clear--although I think that there will have to be a more detailed definition to determine whether, for example, the Bill means selling area or includes store rooms. What is less clear is which small shops will be able to open under the categories set out in schedule 3. I take it that the hon. Member for Ogmore and his friends have sought to get away from the Shops Act 1950 list of goods which may be legally sold on Sundays and which has created so many anomalies and excited so much derision, and to restrict in future by the type of business that the shop does. We can all sympathise with that objective, but the hon. Gentleman has set himself a deceptively hard task of devising a formula that effectively permits the categories that he thinks should be free to open to do so, without creating massive loopholes through which every other small retailer can scramble. He has sought to do that by permitting to qualify for opening on Sunday only those small shops that have 80 per cent. of their annual turnover from products listed in one of the categories in schedule 3. I realise that that is to ensure that a store which, for example, sells mainly carpets but also stocks some confectionery and magazines cannot pass itself off as a newsagent.

However, if I have understood the hon. Gentleman's intentions aright in his anxiety to prevent abuse, I fear, like the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms. Anderson), that he will find he has shut many more small shops than he expects. To take the first category in his list, I suspect that many small shops that seek to trade as convenience stores will find that more than 20 per cent. of their turnover is in goods other than those in the very short

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list in schedule 3. What about light bulbs, for example, or fuse wires to go with domestic cleaning material? I realise that any list will create anomalies. They cannot be avoided with any restrictive law. However, most successful small convenience shops, which effectively serve local community needs, generally cover a wider range of goods than he allows. Of course, they will not be able to restrict their range on Sundays, like such small shops which currently obey the 1950 Act, because the test will no longer be what they sell on Sundays but what proportion of their trade in the past year was in the permitted goods--80 per cent. is a high threshold. Again, I should be surprised if the hon. Gentleman's Bill did not close a large number of newspaper shops that now legally open. For under his newsagent category, 80 per cent. of an eligible newsagent's turnover in the previous year must have been in newspapers, magazines, stationery, tobacco and confectionery. Many small shops, thinking themselves, and being thought of by their customers, as bona fide small newsagents, will find that more than 20 per cent. of their turnover had been in other products. They will nevertheless have to shut.

I wonder whether the hon. Member for Ogmore and his friends have done any formal study or research to determine what the impact will actually be. I am merely giving voice to my expectations, having read his Bill with great care. But the Government intend to publish alongside their own Bill a formal critique commissioned from London Economics as to the general effects of reform, so that before Members vote on the Government Bill, they can see what they are letting their constituents in for. I shall seek to ensure that we can throw some objective light on the questions that I have just asked.

Mr. Ray Powell : I have worked with the Minister for several years and I have always found him amiable and helpful. The Government have made promises on the REST proposals of the Keep Sunday Special campaign. I hope that help will be forthcoming even though the Government have their own option of total deregulation.

The Minister has made nit-picking points about our proposals. Only this week the Library produced a study for me of the number of amendments that the Government table on their own Bills immediately after they are presented on Second Reading. I shall not go into the figures. They are formidable. On the monstrous Bill on which we have had all-night debates, the Government tabled some 400 amendments. There is no doubt that my Bill is far more controversial than the Maastricht Bill. [Laughter.] But the Minister should have listened to my opening remarks. Of course, Keep Sunday Special is prepared to listen to all his arguments in Committee. The Sunday trading shops unit that he has just set up could have been set up six and a half years ago. The 42 paragraphs are being looked through and Keep Sunday Special's legal advisers have the answers to most of his questions.

Mr. Lloyd : I shall come to some of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned. Of course, we shall co-operate with Keep Sunday Special to ensure that the campaign's objectives are properly reflected in the Government Bill. I do not accept, however, that I am nitpicking, because cumulatively my arguments go to the heart of the Bill and what it will mean in practice. I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman's opening speech and I

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hope that he will listen to me and read mine. It is supposed to be helpful to his campaign so that the legislation can be drafted in a form that meets its intentions and the House can vote on them, rather than voting on measures that they do not intend, which would happen with the present Bill.

Mr. Donald Anderson : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Lloyd : Yes, but I am giving way in ways that I said that I would not.

Mr. Anderson : During the time that that exercise is carried out, until the Government Bill comes into operation some time in 1994, are the Government prepared to countenance continued law breaking?

Mr. Lloyd : The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the present law is crystal clear on one point. The enforcement of the law belongs to local authorities, which have a duty to consider a number of factors and the best way to enforce the law in their area. It is difficult for local authorities to enforce the law when this legislation is before the House and it is apparent that the Government intend to introduce legislation. At present, it is up to the local authorities to decide and until the law is changed that is where responsibility must finally lie.

Mr. Lord rose --

Mr. Lloyd : I shall not give way again because I have done so too many times. I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak and that I should help the House to come to a sensible conclusion by making other matters clear.

I shall take one more of the seven categories in schedule 3. Souvenir, postcard and fancy goods shops of the sort that cater for tourists may open, according to the Bill, if their turnover is at least 80 per cent. in the permitted range of goods and if they are situated in a seaside holiday area. That would mean that such shops would have to close in inland holiday areas such as Bath, Harrogate or London, which attracts more tourists than any other part of the country. In summer, it is hardly possible to move along the pavement in Westminster, so great is the press of foreign visitors. I wonder whether the hon. Member means to discriminate in that way. The 80 per cent. rule will also close a great many garden centres, as has been said this morning. Power tools, lawn mowers, garden furniture, paving stones and sheds will, in many cases, make up more than 20 per cent. of their turnover during the year. Their representative trade body believes that closure will be the result. Again, I wonder whether the hon. Member can tell the House what studies have been done. Can he enlighten the House as to the proportion of garden centres that he will be closing? It is an issue which the Government hope to be able to illuminate with some objective data when the Government Bill comes before the House, as we believe that it is essential for information of that type to be available if hon. Members are to come to an informed conclusion. Apart from the uncertainty of the effect, to which I have referred, there is a practical difficulty with the qualification tests. Shops would need to keep special records specifying turnover in particular goods for particular periods. Many do not keep such records at present. Shops with computer-operated tills would probably have no great

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difficulty in doing so, but that means that the Bill discriminates against small traders, which the hon. Member rightly wishes to encourage.

Local authorities will be obliged to collect turnover data and process it, because they will have a duty to enforce the Bill. That would be a considerable bureaucratic task and the cost of that bureaucracy would be passed on, through shopkeepers, to customers. I must mention another area of uncertainty. The Bill gives local authorities discretion over whether to permit registration for opening. That could close all shops, apart from the few listed in schedule 1 to the Bill. Local authorities would be able to decide whether to permit general convenience stores, newsagents, video hire shops, and shops at galleries, museums and zoos to open on Sundays. Some-- no doubt most and perhaps all--would register those shops that met the basic criteria in the Bill, but others might take a more stringent attitude and could, as the Bill is drafted, be fully within their rights to refuse registration for reasons that have nothing to do with retailing, or for reasons that are outside the shopkeeper's control, such as litter. That could easily lead to variations in the application of the law within and between authorities. Similar competing businesses could find themselves subject to different decisions.

Mr. Graham : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Lloyd : No, I shall not give way as I must make progress. Local discretion is a valid approach, but the way that the Bill is drafted could result in shopkeepers changing the thrust of their marketing to meet the turnover requirement, install complicated machinery to measure turnover in the way required by the Bill and even shift walls to fit into the space requirement, only to find that, having done all that, the local authority turns down their application for registration for entirely unconnected reasons. There is another effect of the Bill to which I should draw attention. It uses an entirely new definition of a shop. The perfectly valid and understandable aim is to ensure that estate agents, travel agents and perhaps some businesses offering financial services--such as insurance brokers, banks and building

societies--should no longer be able to trade on Sundays. But, in doing that, the hon. Member has also brought within the ambit of the Bill a wide range of other businesses. Those include osteopaths, dentists and doctors, accountants and lawyers and could even take in breakdown services such as the Automobile Association. I very much doubt whether that is the hon. Member's intention, as many such businesses offer essential emergency services. But that is, I believe, the effect of the Bill as drafted.

The hon. Member is rightly concerned that local authorities should neither be out of pocket nor make a profit from operating the registration scheme required in the Bill. The Bill therefore provides that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary should set fee levels for each local authority separately, so that each recoups its costs but no more. To do that, it would be necessary to collect very detailed expenditure information from each local authority with a responsibility to enforce the provisions of the Bill, to process the data and predict what

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the likely volume of business for each will be in the following year. That would constitute an expensive and unwieldy bureaucracy. The hon. Member intends to provide local authorities with penalties which have real teeth. Under the Bill, shopkeepers trading in defiance of its provisions could go to prison for up to a year. I am sure that many hon. Members will agree that the penalty is disproportionate. It is contrary to the widely held view that imprisonment should be restricted to violent and persistent crime where there is no alternative. It cannot be right that a shopkeeper should be liable to a stiffer term of imprisonment for opening his or her shop on Sunday than if he or she were to assault a police officer in the execution of his duty.

Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Lloyd : No, I shall not give way. As it is, there are a number of other issues that I would have raised had I not already taken more time than I intended.

I began by congratulating the hon. Member for Ogmore and I did so sincerely --I realise that, as much of my speech has been critical of his Bill, my congratulations may not have seemed sincere. The hon. Gentleman seeks to legislate on a notoriously difficult and complex subject. It is right for me to explore some of the problems inherent in his approach before the House comes to a decision.

Earlier this week I was delighted to receive a letter from Dr. Schluter--to whom the hon. Gentleman paid tribute--confirming that the Keep Sunday Special campaign will work with officials at the Home Office to help us to give clear legislative effect to the intentions of the Keep Sunday Special campaign section of the Government Bill. I hope that, by highlighting some of the problems, I have assisted in that process. It will not serve the interests of the Keep Sunday Special campaign if its model is widely seen to be inoperable or flawed. It will not help the Government satisfactorily to resolve the general issue if they know that, should the House choose it, one of the models in their Bill will have to be heavily amended to make it work. Much more drafting attention and thought must be lavished upon the Bill if it is to be coherent legislation giving full effect to the hon. Gentleman's intention.

I am encouraged by the fact that the hon. Gentleman has said that he is prepared to be flexible. However, the changes that are needed are more than can easily be managed in Committee on a private Member's Bill. As I have said, the best way to untie the Sunday trading knot is to examine and debate the competing solutions that will be on offer in the Government's forthcoming Bill. The hon. Member for Ogmore has been instrumental in bringing about a useful debate and for that I and the House are very much in his debt. I hope that he will agree that the best course is the one that I have suggested and that he will not press his Bill to a Second Reading so that it can rematerialise more perfectly drafted as part of the Government's options Bill.

Mr. Ray Powell : The Minister suggests that we should not press the Bill into Committee. I intend to do so. A booklet published by the Library on Shops Acts and their history since 1667, when the first such Bill was introduced, shows that most were private Members' Bills. Perhaps the Minister will remember that before he rejects the Bill.

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Mr. Lloyd : I appreciate that the Shops Act is very much the product of private Members' efforts. Perhaps that is why we are in such difficulties. [ Hon. Members :-- "Oh!"] I entirely understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to press his Bill to a Second Reading, but I hope that he will reflect on what I have said and not seek to do that. By following my suggestions he will not merely expedite the business of the House but will do a practical service for his own cause.

12.41 pm

Ms. Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) : I join in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) on his success in the ballot and on his persistence in trying to bring new regulations to the chaotic practice of Sunday trading. My hon. Friend teased me at the beginning of his speech. I told him in advance that I would not be able to support him in the Lobby. A private Members' Bill is subject to a free vote and in due course I shall explain the tradition of the Opposition Front Bench in the matter.

I have great sympathy with the sentiment that Sunday is special. I like nothing better than to lie in bed on a Sunday morning feeling that I have no reason to get up and wishing that everyone else had the same choice. I would prefer that people were not rushing off in their cars and that there was still a sense that Sunday was a day of rest. However, I am in a minority.

It is quite clear that the major changes in our society that have led to the commercialisation of Sunday have not been democratically decided. None the less, most people are positive in their acceptance of a changing way of life. The House should be in no doubt that Sunday trading debates, while focused on the regulation of shopping hours, reflect major changes already under way in society and have far-reaching implications for its future development.

Sadly, there has been far too little effective democratic debate and control over the nature of urban development in the past 30 years. Much of the changed way of life that we experience today has been dictated purely by commercial considerations by big companies. In 1950, when the Shops Act came into force, there were just under 700 supermarkets of more than 2,500 sq ft. Today there are more than 700 of more than 25,000 sq ft each. In 1950 there were 145,000 independent grocers. Today there are just 35,000. Some 30 years ago there were no do-it-yourself shops, no shopping centres or garden centres, and no video shops. As hon. Members have said, there has been a massive growth in out-of-town sites, with all that that implies for town centres, traffic flows, pollution and private car use. Decisions on where and how we shop have largely been made for us by the retailers, but when we shop is still subject to some controls. We cannot allow purely commercial interests to dictate the pattern of change.

Mr. Stern : I am very interested in what the hon. Lady says because many hon. Members who represent urban constituencies will be aware of the public anger that is caused by, for example, applications to develop new supermarkets. An application has been made for a new supermarket in my constituency. If the hon. Lady is saying, as I take it she is, that the Opposition intend to look at proposals for changes to the planning law, or to other areas of the law that affect these developments, may

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I ask her to make those discussions, on a genuine cross-party basis, as open as possible, for they are ones in which both sides of the House will wish to join?

Ms. Ruddock : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I do not disagree with him.

I referred to the purely commercial interests that have dictated the pattern of change. Many of those commercial interests have in recent times attempted to dictate the pattern of change by flouting the law. It would be wrong if their actions were to find easy acquiescence in the House. We have a duty when debating the Bill to reflect not just on how things are and how they have changed but on the consequences of further change.

Those who have campaigned locally against the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore and those who have signed petitions opposing the loss of Sunday trading at their local supermarkets are making a judgment about the current state of affairs. Today, only a minority of large shops in England and Wales open on Sundays. Those who work on Sundays and those who shop on Sundays may well be satisfied by the present arrangements, but their views cannot be interpreted as support for new laws to give all premises the right to open on Sundays. Although people may oppose the loss of a facility, which would occur under the provisions of my hon. Friend's Bill, they may thoroughly approve of the fact that the majority of retail outlets still remain closed.

I believe that any decision of Parliament on Sunday trading will have a profound effect on our quality of life. Whatever the change, there will be an impact on working practices, on social life and on local environments. It is for that reason that Opposition Front-Bench Members believe that the matter must be decided by Government legislation, to be decided by the whole House on a free vote. That is why I shall abstain today.

Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton) : Will the hon. Lady give way?

Ms. Ruddock : No, I do not have time to give way.

I am outraged by the Minister's complacency in his acceptance that it will not be possible to bring legislation before the House this Session. We see it as our task to try to ensure that it does come before the House this Session and that the Government bring forward real choices, accurately representing the three or even four options that have been worked through by the pressure groups.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Ms. Ruddock : We also intend to continue to press for a free vote on every aspect of the proceedings that would be taken--

Mrs. Dunwoody : Will my hon. Friend allow me to intervene?

Ms. Ruddock : --in the House on a Government Bill. I shall now give way to my hon. Friend.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Is my hon. Friend saying that Opposition Front-Bench Members oppose the Bill, not because it could easily be amended and not because there would be a free vote--hon. Members are perfectly capable of making up their own minds, if given the opportunity--but because the Government have not introduced a Bill outlining their alternatives and that even if we have to wait

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until another Session for the introduction of such a Bill the view of Opposition Front-Bench Members is that nevertheless we should not take a decision today?

Ms. Ruddock : We believe that the issue is so complex that the matters that need to be debated should be debated in Government time, when we could expect the participation of all Members of the House ; but I repeat that we believe that the process must be undertaken on a free vote and that all stages of the proceedings should be conducted on that basis.

Mr. David Nicholson rose --

Ms. Ruddock : Let me refer now to some specific aspects of my hon. Friend's Bill. In spelling out some of the consequences of his proposals, many of my comments might seem--

Mr. Dennis Turner (Wolverhampton, South-East) : Will my hon. Friend give way ?

Ms. Ruddock : I am sorry, but I intend not to give way, or Back- Bench Members will accuse me of having taken their time. Let me now refer to some specific aspects of my hon. Friend's Bill. I want to spell out some of the consequences of the Bill, and in so doing I might appear to be critical, but that is inevitable when a measure reflects only one aspect of the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend on fitting his proposals so neatly into the REST acronym. There is good sense in legislating for the opening of a range of outlets which clearly facilitate leisure activities, allow for emergencies and enhance social gatherings. No doubt all hon. Members envisage my hon. Friend's immense difficulties in deciding what should be exempted from the general prohibition on Sunday trading and what should not.

However, sadly, anomalies exist, particularly with regard to the list of goods and the 80 per cent. rule. Perhaps the greatest anomaly for the REST proposals is the exclusion of DIY centres. For many people DIY is a source of recreation, and there is clearly a proven consumer demand. Furthermore, the opening of DIY stores on Sundays offers a chance for families to shop and enjoy DIY together. I can readily understand my hon. Friend's difficulties in that respect. If a large DIY store is to open on an out-of- town site on Sundays, then why not the adjoining supermarket ? I appreciate that that would appear to be the thin end of the wedge, but I have no doubt, either, that there will be considerable public anger if DIY stores that presently open on Sundays were to be closed. I am sure that the whole House will welcome the fact that my hon. Friend has accepted the need to examine that issue again in Committee.

The Bill attempts to protect small shops--a laudable objective with which most of us would agree. But there are those who regard themselves as owning small shops, such as relatively small grocery stores, and they are probably so regarded by the public. They would be obliged to close because they had a square footage slightly in excess of 1,500. Again my hon. Friend is well advised to accept the need to re-examine those space distinctions in Committee. Although I felt it necessary to point out some of the difficulties, I acknowledge the extent to which my hon. Friend has obviously tried to balance different interests. We very much support and endorse his concern for those who work or might be pressed to work on Sundays. The

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position of the retail work force is crucial to the debate, but in order to put my remarks into context I should like briefly to consider current working practices in Britain.

The normal working day of nine to five is now a minority activity, involving 41 per cent. of men and a mere 26 per cent. of women. Both sexes now enter the work force later and leave earlier. Working patterns have been further radically transformed by the change in women's work. In 1950, only 26 per cent. of married women worked outside the home. Today the figure is 70 per cent. Also, 25 per cent. of the British work force now work part time, and 45 per cent. of working women are part-time workers.

There are many implications. For some people it is a matter of survival in a recession, taking the only work that is available to them, but for others it is a matter of choice. Part-time work often means work of lesser status, poorer promotion prospects and lower pay. Whatever the cause, the consequences of changed working patterns are important to the debate and are reflected, too, in changed domestic patterns, not least opportunities and time for shopping as consumers or working as retail staff.

In my experience, those who work on Sundays for companies such as Tesco with a recognised trade union do so voluntarily. They are paid double wages and they find the atmosphere in the shop more relaxed on Sundays. Many are young people without family responsibilities. But even women with families, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms. Anderson) pointed out, admit to welcoming a few hours out of the house, leaving father to take charge of child care for a change.

Statistics are difficult to come by and are subject to challenge by rival camps, but it is possible that as many as 500,000 retail workers now work on Sundays and that as many as 140,000 of them could lose that opportunity if the Bill became law.

People today do not want a prescription for Sunday behaviour, but, clearly, they want choice. No retail workers should be forced to work on Sunday. We totally deplore the move by some companies to issue seven-day contracts, which give people no control over their working lives and which deprive them of the opportunity to earn a premium wage on a Sunday. Furthermore, a survey conducted by the Equal Opportunities Commission found that more than half of the women respondents and a third of men would find it impossible or inconvenient to work on Sundays. That represents a powerful expression of public opinion which should be respected.

A survey conducted by the university of Stirling identified the prime reason for people's willingness to work on Sundays--premium pay. Without that, those who work on Sundays today would be unwilling as the rest of us to do so. I warn those who are enthusiastic for liberalisation that they are unlikely to find any support on the Labour Benches unless the rights and potential rights of shop workers are protected.

Mr. Ray Powell : It is important that we make the position clear. My hon. Friend said that those on our Front Bench have decided that they would prefer this matter to be dealt with by Government legislation, subject to a free vote. However, we have had no clear Government statement as to whether they are prepared to give a free vote on the question of employment rights and

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employment protection. Therefore, I hope that my hon. Friend will make it abundantly clear to the Government that such a Bill would not be acceptable in any shape or form to the Labour party unless there is a free vote on employment protection. That condition is important bearing in mind that the Government have already decided to dispose of what little is left of the wages councils.

Perhaps my hon. Friend will also look up the wonderful speech that was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) in 1986 which led to the defeat of the Government Bill by 14 votes, with 72 Conservative Members voting against the Government. Perhaps my hon. Friend will then reflect and change her mind on the speech that she is making today.

Ms. Ruddock : I am aware, as I have already said today and on other occasions, that there will be support for liberalisation only, should that be the will of the House. That is the important issue. Support for liberalisation could not come from the Labour Benches unless it guaranteed employment protection. We have made that absolutely clear at all times.

I invite the Minister, if he would be so kind, to get to his feet now and tell us that if the Government offer the options to which he referred, and if they accurately reflect the views of the major pressure groups, in two out of three cases, they must and will contain provisions for employment protection. We suggest to the Government that they must conduct such proceedings only and properly on a free vote.

Mr. Cormack : The hon. Lady has made a great impact in this place, but she is relatively new to it. Perhaps she does not remember that Governments almost never give free votes on legislation that they introduce. The only true opportunity for a free vote is on days such as today, on a private Member's Bill.

Ms. Ruddock : The hon. Gentleman will know that the Home Secretary said that there will be a free vote ; that is on the record. We have pressed for clarification, and we want a free vote on every stage of the proceedings. The Minister seems to be refusing to get to his feet, and I am sure that hon. Members will take note and decide accordingly.

I was warning hon. Members who are enthusiastic about liberalisation of the unlikelihood of their receiving any support from my colleagues unless shop workers' rights, and potential shop workers' rights, are protected. I suspect that that will be anathema to the Minister whose colleagues have been so active in dismantling workers' rights and who, even now, in face of this debate, seek to remove the protective floor of shop workers' wages by abolishing the wages council.

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