House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Jan 1993

Mr. Couchman : Will the hon. Lady give way?

Ms. Ruddock : I cannot because I should exceed my time. While more people may be willing to accept more flexible working patterns, they do not expect to be treated as robots. The debate on hours and patterns of work is of Europewide concern. The European Community draft working hours directive is another possible influence on the "keep Sunday special" debate. The directive establishes a 48-hour working week, four weeks' paid holiday and at least 35 consecutive hours off each week. Predictably, the directive is being strongly resisted by the Government, but

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its significance for Sunday trading lies in the fact that it applies to full-time and part-time workers. There is a debate in continental Europe about whether the 35-hour rest period would cover Sundays.

Clearly there are many aspects of the debate that need to be pursued and which lie outside the scope of my hon. Friend's Bill, for example, the proposals of the Shopping Hours Reform Council reflected in today's speech by the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman), and the proposals of the OPEN Group which appear to be something of a compromise between the positions adopted by the Keep Sunday Special campaign and the SHRC.

There is also much concern and confusion in some sectors, exemplified by representations made to me on behalf of the Trustee Savings bank of anti- competitive practice that might become embodied in reform.

What cannot be in doubt is the long-overdue need to legislate. The Government have allowed themselves to become a laughing stock, with many of their closest political allies openly flouting the law. Sunday trading anomalies abound in the types of goods that can currently be sold legally in England and Wales and, most obviously, in the fact that over the border in Scotland any goods, with the exception of alcohol, may be legally sold on the Sabbath. Profound changes have occurred in society since the Shops Act 1950 was passed, and it seems likely that a consensus for change now exists in the House. That consensus supports a more liberal position than that adopted by my hon. Friend's Bill, but only a further and more comprehensive debate in Government time can determine that matter.

In bringing us to this debate, my hon. Friend has provided an excellent opportunity for hon. Members to exercise their minds on this issue and for the public to be alerted to the complexity of reforming the law. I am particularly anxious that it is the public who will have been engaged as a result of our deliberations because a paradox must be resolved.

I have no doubt that most people welcome the opportunity to shop on Sundays, but, at the same time, they still feel that it is and should be a slightly different and special day. In our modern and multicultural society, Sunday's religious significance has been diminished ; but for most families, it is still the day when they are most likely to spend some time together at a meal or in some shared leisure activity. For many town dwellers it is a day when the roar of traffic is somewhat diluted, and it appears safer to walk in the streets.

Although I do not believe that today is the day on which we can decide the weighty issue of Sunday trading, I seriously thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore for enabling us to have what I believe will be the first of many important debates on the subject. 1.4 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) and the sponsors of the Bill. The attitude of the Front-Bench spokesmen both for the Government and for the Opposition is to be regretted. I say that if we want a free vote on Sunday trading, today is the day to have it. Today is the day for the House to let the Front-Bench spokesmen on both sides know exactly what its feeling is. As one who helped to defeat the Government on their previous proposal for

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deregulation, I remind the Minister that the 14 Unionist Members of Parliament made up the majority at that time. I am glad that the House has learnt something from that experience and that we have the opportunity of the debate today.

After God created man and woman he gave mankind two gifts--first, the institution of a day of rest and, secondly, the institution of marriage. Neither of those gifts are negative ; they are positive. I could say that Adam knew that they were very positive. He got a most beautiful woman as his wife and he had no mother-in-law. I am sure that he must have been very happy. Of course, Eve could have balanced that out by saying that she had no mother-in-law either.

Today I want to emphasise that man has a threefold relationship and each side needs to be fully catered for. He has a relationship to the world about him, a relationship to his fellows and a relationship to God. Except all three parts of man are fully catered for, he will not come to fulfilment or true, abiding happiness.

We should cherish and safeguard the cessation of our usual employment on one day of the week and the turning of our minds to things that are spiritual and bring rest and relaxation. That is for the benefit of all mankind, whatever their religious views may be. This was said of a humble Back-Bench Member by the name of John Burns at the turn of the century :

"He believed that the day of rest, commonly called Sunday, was the day which had done more than anything else to buttress and maintain that excellent institution called Home. Without Sunday the Home would cease to have that advantage which it had previously enjoyed, and no man could say that merely providing one day's rest in seven was as good as the universally accepted Sunday. In a word, the Sunday, as the day of rest, was from nearly every point of view a national treasure and an industrial advantage."

I fully endorse that statement.

A saying of Christ is often misquoted and misapplied with regard to Sunday observance. Christ said :

"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." I shall illustrate the real meaning of that. When I drive on the road I drive on the left-hand side because the Highway Code says that I should. But if a child dashes out into the left-hand side of the road I immediately swerve to the right-hand side to avoid the child, because the Highway Code was made for man and not man for the Highway Code. Christ made it perfectly clear that there was to be a clear distinction on Sunday concerning the exemption of works of necessity and mercy. Those works of necessity and mercy can be done freely on Sundays.

To get the best out of life physically, time is needed for relaxation. It is imperative for us all to relax physically, mentally and spiritually. Stress-related diseases are very common today. It is necessary for us all to have a period of unwinding. The frustration of tasks of constant repetition, the weary demands of an executive position and the strains of family worries mean that we all require a time of cessation from labour.

God who gave us this ordinance know what was good for his creatures and we should rejoice in the opportunity of having rest. This commandment stands in scripture in the same category as the laws Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not kill". We should always remember this commandment's standing in Holy Writ.

A famous Lord Chief Justice of the United Kingdom wrote four lines that are as applicable today as they were when he wrote them :

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"A Sabbath well spent brings a week of content

And health for the toils of tomorrow ;

But a Sabbath profaned, whate'er may be gained,

Is a certain forerunner of sorrow."

That Lord Chief Justice knew what he was saying many centuries ago.

I welcome the main provisions of the Bill. It proposes a substantial increase in fines for illegal Sunday trading. The law and order Government should deal with the law breakers. I am amazed by those in my city of Belfast who say that they are catering for the general public by opening on Sunday, yet who say to their employees, "You must work on Sunday. If you work on Sunday, we shall give you 50 per cent. cash discounts on all you purchase." That is bribery and a threat and it should be stopped.

If the Minister intends to wait another year before getting legislation on to the statute book, he must take measures to bring people in line with the law. The Government will put off legislation until people are agitating for shops to be kept open because so many of them are shopping on Sundays. A lobby is being created to help the Government to deregulate. That is the whole idea of putting off legislation time and again.

I welcome the inclusion of worker protection in the Bill, but I hope that we can introduce protection for those who seek jobs. If a person seeking a job is told, "You cannot have a job unless you work on Sundays", he is immediately ineligible for that job. I welcome the fact that the precise definition of shops and retail businesses is spelt out in the Bill and the fact that exemption will be made on the basis of type of shop rather than on the basis of certain goods. That is a valuable step. In many cases, the definition of shops and places of business that should remain closed on Sunday is right. There are anomalies in all legislation and especially in this area. I am sure that those who oppose the Bill will latch on to and exploit every flaw that they can find. We had examples of that today from the hon. Members for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern), and for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman), from the Minister and, in some ways, from the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock).

There have been efforts to hatchet certain provisions in a way that is totally unacceptable to many hon. Members. The House should let the Bill have a fair wind. We should let it get into Committee and see what happens there. Who will lose by that? If the Minister is so eager to find out what Parliament thinks, he can help us to tell him today.

I close by quoting Lord Macaulay when he introduced the Ten Hours Bill. He said :

"We are not poorer, but richer, because we have, through many ages, rested from our labour one day in seven. That day is not lost. While industry is suspended, while the plough lies in the furrow, while the exchange is silent, while no smoke ascends from the factory, a process is going on, quite as important to the wealth of nations as any process which is performed on more busy days. Man--the machine of machines--the machine compared with which all the contrivances of the Watts and Arkwrights are worthless--is repairing and winding up, so that he returns to his labours on Monday with clearer intellect, with livelier spirits and with renewed corporeal vigour."

I suggest that we should have private Member's Bills on Mondays in future, instead of on Fridays.

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1.15 pm

Mrs. Audrey Wise (Preston) : As the debate has progressed, I have become increasingly impressed by the wide range of support for the Bill. That is not accidental and it does not mean that hon. Members are mellowing. I do not remember ever being on the same side on any issue as the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman)

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : And that is not likely to happen again either.

Mrs. Wise : Perhaps that is a relief to both of us.

On this occasion, the support arises, not by accident, but because the arguments are so powerful. That is something that we should welcome. I welcome the fact that I could admire the words of the hon. Member for Lancaster.

The arguments for keeping Sunday special are powerful. Some of us have particular aspects about which we are especially passionate. In that respect, I must refer to the sad and remarkable circumstances in which my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms. Anderson) was able to quote a trade union leader advocating that members of this place, including Labour Members, should enter the Lobby and oppose a Bill whose two main principles are that as few people as possible should work on a Sunday and that those who do should receive double time and real protection. It is particularly remarkable that my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen could quote that trade union leader in the light of the unanimous decision of the TUC last September that Sundays should remain a rest day and that there should continue to be legal restrictions on Sunday trading.

I speak for shop workers, for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and for the vast majority of trade unionists in this country. The hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman), who called on the House to vote against the Bill because it called for double-time pay, wanted the House to listen to the words of John Edmonds. I look forward to a time when the hon. Member for Gillingham asks us to listen to a trade union leader again.

As president of USDAW, I can inform the House that we have about 350,000 members, the vast majority of whom work in retailing. I can therefore claim to know something about the subject. One particular aspect irritates me, and that is the problem with DIY.

It is no accident that the Bill does not include DIY stores. This is because of the nature of those stores. They sell a vast range of goods. If we include DIY stores in Sunday shopping legislation, how do we keep out the rest of the high street stores which sell articles such as curtains and lights? Once we allow DIY stores to trade, we enshrine unfair competition into law unless the provision is extended to department stores such as British Home Stores, to specialist shops and all the rest. I do not believe that a Bill should enshrine unfair competiton in law. That is why DIY stores are not included in the Bill. Garden centres are a different matter, and they are included in the Bill. We want garden centres to open. I want to be able to go to a garden centre ; it is a day out.

Mr. John Marshall : Will the hon. Member give way?

Mrs. Wise : No, I will not give way. I have not intervened at all because of time.

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The hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) said that his life was enriched by taking his family shopping on a Sunday. I suggest that he gives up a couple of his other jobs and uses that time to take his family shopping. Clause 4(3) covers garden centres properly. If it does not, we will correct it. For goodness sake : garden centres are not the issue ; the issue is the Keep Sunday Special campaign, the high street shops and the big stores. We have been told that jobs are threatened by the Bill and that they will be created by Sunday trading ; trade will happen on Sunday if it is legalised. It happens now, although it is illegal. Most people do not shop on Sundays. Trade is the key word. Trade will move ; it will not increase. People spend what they can on the goods that they buy. I challenge any hon. Member to say that someone has come to his or her surgery and said, "I could not spend my weekly income because the shop was not open on Sunday." People come to my surgery and complain about their weekly income. They say that they cannot afford to buy the goods that they need. That is a different question altogether.

If we want to get rid of the recession, there are political actions which should be taken. The Bill is not about creating jobs. A large retailer tried to tell me--I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen was present at the time--that there is a Sunday pound which one can apparently spend only on a Sunday. I throw that in to show the level of briefing given to hon. Members by opponents of the Bill. I have never seen a Sunday pound ; there is none in my pocket or purse.

Trade will move. Some jobs will be created by Sunday trading, and people will be compensated for that increase in trade by losing their jobs during the week or having their hours compulsorily reduced. The effect of that will be a greater casualisation in retailing. What do customers want? They want well-paid staff who have a real stake in a job and an interest. They do not want one-day-only workers. They do not want temporary or casual workers who are pushed into jobs or driven to them. They want well-trained, regular staff who have confidence in the work that they do. The Bill will help to maintain that.

Unregulated Sunday trading or widespread commonplace trading will lead to more casualisation. More casualisation will be to the dreadful disadvantage of trade unions, and John Edmonds should know that. Unregulated Sunday trading will lead to a worse service for customers. I object to both results. I favour the Bill.

Mr. Graham : As a Scotsman, I have shopped in a do-it-yourself shop on a Sunday. On a Sunday a couple of weeks before Christmas I tried to buy some glue to stick a plastic strip in my bathroom. I stopped a young girl and asked her whether she could tell me the appropriate glue to stick plastic strip. She said, "I haven't got a clue". She worked only part time and did not have any qualifications.

Mrs. Wise : My hon. Friend has distinguished between casual, one-day only work and part-time work. My union organises part-time workers. They can be as regular and well trained as full-time workers. Casual workers cannot be regular and well trained by the nature of the matter. I shall explain to my hon. Friend later how he can ensure that he gets his DIY materials but not on a Sunday, even in Scotland.

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My union organises shop workers in Scotland. Those workers are not happy about the situation in Scotland. They want protection. They want restriction. I would not have been surprised if our members in Scotland had gone to the rostrum at our annual delegate meeting and said, "We have to do it. Why should not people in England and Wales do it?" That has never happened. My union is united in its opposition to generalised Sunday trading in Scotland, England and Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock), the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, referred to a supermarket which trades on a Sunday and has a recognised trade union. Yes, it has. That union is my union. We represent our members when we say that the Opposition Front-Bench team should support the Bill today. I can tell my hon. Friend that some supermarkets and other traders who previously favoured keeping Sunday special have been driven into the opposite camp by unfair competition and the recession. That is no answer. My hon. Friend should listen to that recognised trade union and act on its advice. I am glad to say that a good many Front-Bench Opposition Members will vote in the Lobby for my hon. Friend's Bill. I am pleased about that.

I conclude by urging that everyone who is interested in trade unionism, worker protection and family life, and in keeping Sunday special, maintaining the quality of our lives and saying that there is more to life than buying and selling--let us have one day which is as free of it as possible--should support my hon. Friend's Bill. 1.25 pm

Mrs. Marion Roe (Broxbourne) : I take a particular interest in the Bill and the whole issue of Sunday trading because I have the honour of being the parliamentary adviser to the Horticultural Trades Association. That is, of course, declared in the Register of Members' Interests.

The Horticultural Trades Association has among its members many thousands of people who operate garden centres both large and small. Under current legislation, certain of the items that they stock may be sold on a Sunday, although obvious anomalies exist. For example, one can buy a shrub but not the compost in which to plant it. One can buy a tree but not the stake that needs to be inserted at the time of planting.

The garden centre industry has developed enormously during the past 20 years. Many centres are now leading local leisure attractions, selling items which do not necessarily fit into the narrow category of gardening goods. However, in practice most local authorities treat garden centres rather than merely the goods that they sell as exempt from current Sunday trading laws.

The importance of Sunday trading for garden centres cannot be underestimated. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) express support for garden centres. The annual turnover of the industry was £800 million in 1991-92, of which 40 per cent. was earned on Sundays.

Gardening is a leisure pursuit in which people tend to indulge on their free weekends. People certainly want to visit garden centres on Sundays. Equally importantly, people want to work in garden centres on Sundays. There is never any shortage of applicants for part-time weekend jobs, or volunteers from the full-time staff.

When the Bill was first proposed by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), the garden centre industry had

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some difficulty with parts of it. We therefore met the hon. Gentleman to discuss our anxieties. I should like to put on record my gratitude for the way in which he was prepared to accommodate a great many of the matters that bothered us. I regret that he is not in his seat to receive that tribute.

I believe that when the hon. Gentleman drafted his Bill he had other sectors of retailing in mind and was anxious not to impinge on the widely acceptable activities of garden centres.

However, I have a number of worries about the Bill as it is drafted. First, on registration, I worry that the need to demonstrate that at least 80 per cent. of a retailer's annual turnover is in permitted goods will lead to greater form-filling and bureaucracy, especially for smaller centres which may not analyse sales in such detail. Small businesses need less form- filling, not more. I am concerned about replacing existing anomalies with a new set. For example, it is proposed that establishments classed as farm shops will be allowed to stay open for longer than those classed as garden centres. Given that many goods, including plants, are common to both, that will give an unnatural competitive advantage to some outlets. Further anomalies arise because of the mix of products included on the list for garden retailers. Garden centre operators will have to demonstrate that at least 80 per cent. of their sales come from goods on that list, yet there are some obvious omissions. The list does not include seeds, bulbs, garden furniture, barbecues, gardening books or conservatories and sheds, but those products form a substantial proportion of turnover for many garden centres and their exclusion will prevent firms from reaching the 80 per cent. threshold. The employment protection aspects of the Bill are another concern. I am sure that the House will understand when I say that garden centres operate seven days a week, with the majority of trading taking place at the weekend. As I mentioned, in practice garden centres have no problems in recruiting people to work on Sundays, but allowing staff to opt out of working on the busiest day of the week would cause serious problems for the industry.

The fact that those genuine and important concerns exist, despite the generous concessions made by the hon. Member for Ogmore, demonstrates how difficult it is to legislate on Sunday trading. If one simply constructs a new list, one replaces one set of anomalies with another. The law would be set like a snapshot of a moment in time, unable to develop as markets develop, suffering from the problem that affects encylopaedias, which are out of date the moment that they are printed.

Having said that, there is no doubt that the Bill helps garden centres by preserving their position in the retail industry, which enables many of them to trade when other shops are prevented from doing so. For that reason, there is some merit in the Bill, especially given the sympathetic understanding demonstrated by the hon. Member for Ogmore towards representations from the industry. However, the Government have since published their proposals on Sunday trading, which must alter our view of the Bill. It is to the credit of the hon. Member for Ogmore that his persistence has contributed to the Government's move, but, paradoxically, the Bill has brought about its own prematurity.

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It is only right that we should look to the Government to introduce legislation to deal with an issue that causes such strong feeling throughout the country. For that reason, I believe that we should not proceed with the Bill but should work on the Government's proposals. I hope that the Home Secretary will note some of the concerns that I have outlined and will be as accommodating as the hon. Member for Ogmore has been.

1.33 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South) : Perhaps you share my amusement and amazement, Mr. Deputy Speaker, at the proceedings of the House this week. Perhaps it is because the Ulster Unionists have been asking for guidance, a lead and partnership that both the Government and Opposition Front Benches seem to be moving towards a Government of national unity. They seem to be working for their own ends and not necessarily for the well -being of the country. Therefore I speak in support of the Bill, so that the mind of the House, which represents the nation, may be made plain.

I understood the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mrs. Roe) to say that she had seen the Government's proposal. However, I understood from the Minister that the Government were still working on it. Therefore, there is no reason for hon. Members to say that they will vote against today's Bill in light of the Government proposal, as they have not seen it. We have heard the suggestion that the Government may ask us to vote on three sets of proposals, but they have yet to introduce the Bill. We have a Bill before us which we can examine in Committee.

Some of the arguments deployed against the Bill of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) have been specious. One argument was that, in a short time, the Bill would be outdated. The same hon. Member who said that was a member of the Government who introduced the Bill establishing the community charge. That legislation has not lasted for even five years, so it is illogical to suggest that we should not accept the hon. Gentleman's Bill because the evolutionary processes will make it outdated.

The hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) gave us an idyllic description of Sunday shopping as a family event. As he did so I was reminded of an article in one of the newspapers that described how a husband and wife in a supermarket had to chase their three boisterous children to try to get them under control. The husband said to his wife, "I told you that if we had more than two, we would be outnumbered and wouldn't be able to control them." Therefore, using illustrations of idyllic shopping on Sunday as an argument for not regulating Sunday trading does not stand up. Arguments have been made for deregulation. Last Monday evening at a retail association reception, a spokesman said that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food had introduced 105 new regulations to take effect in retail shops. We cannot have it both ways--we cannot demand deregulation when it suits us and regulations when that suits us.

In supporting the Bill, I remind those who have spoken lovingly of gardens of the opening comment of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). It all began in a garden and, because of disobedience, the people got out of the garden. We should consider whether the discontent and growing lawlessness in this country might have been aggravated by the fact that, for years, the House

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and the Government have not ensured that the laws of the land are implemented. Our laws have been intact, but the Government have turned a blind eye, under the guise that they have to wait for European Court decisions. It was to the shame of the Government that they did not give an undertaking to local authorities that, had the European Court come to another decision, they would have bailed out the local authorities that were maintaining the law.

Therefore, we should bear in mind the quotation :

"A Sabbath well spent brings a week of content".

Perhaps discontent arises because we no longer observe the Sabbath. Some people will suggest that the hon. Member for Antrim, North and I work on Sundays, so do not know what we are talking about. We do not work on Sundays, we worship on Sundays and say liturgies, which is a delight. We work for the rest of the week which allows us to worship on Sunday.

I ask all hon. Members to think of the leadership that they are giving to the country. One cannot serve God and mammon. The big retailers and multiples ask us to serve mammon. Although there has been some decline in religion, it would be wise for us to call people back to God.

1.39 pm

Mrs. Ann Winterton (Congleton) : I am one of the survivors of the 1986 debate on Sunday trading. Today's debate has been extremely lively, interesting and, at times, amusing and much good wit and humour have made it a delight. We have had some good speeches, not least that by the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) who, without a shadow of a doubt, delivered her best-ever speech. She was rumbustious and positive and I liked what she said. The speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) was also one of his best. It is always a pleasure to listen to the hon. Gentleman and he raised issues with which I and many other hon. Members were in agreement.

The House is divided on both sides and within parties and the only common ground is that the present law on Sunday trading must be changed. I am proud to be a Conservative Member, at times with a small c, because I believe that we should try to conserve the best of the customs, traditions of Britain and our heritage and I am loyal, I hope, to the traditional way of life.

The form of Sunday that we presently enjoy evolved over many years. During that time we have seen many social changes and Sunday has changed with them. The debate is about how to manage that change with least detriment to society as a whole. There are two stark choices--nothing in between. We believe either in total deregulation or in some form of regulation to protect the quality of life about which I have spoken.

I entirely agree with the many hon. Members who said that Sunday is the only commonly held day for family rest, recreation and worship which are essential in the busy, almost frantic lifestyle that so many of us live. There is a change of pace on Sunday which is conducive to refreshment of body and soul. If we throw that out, it will be detrimental to the people of our country.

Hon. Members have rightly mentioned the role of people who will be required to work on Sundays against their will. I accept that many women wish to work on Sunday and enjoy that opportunity. For example, many lonely widows would want that opportunity. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North- West (Mr. Stern) read to us a letter from one of his constituents. The

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greatest and most valuable contribution that that lady can make to her family is her time so that children, father and mother can build up the relationship which in future will stand the children in good stead.

I know that those views are unpopular in this day and age, but I adhere to them. The deterioration in family life over the past two, three or four decades is currently exemplified by the lawlessness in society, the violence everywhere and the indiscipline of young people and adults. Without cohesion when children are being brought up, discipline or self- discipline cannot be imposed later in their lives.

As many hon. Members have said, Sunday, as the only commonly held day, is vital for such cohesion. The social changes consequent upon changing the trading patterns of Sunday may start slowly, but in due course we shall look back upon them and say, "Why did we allow this to happen in our name because it has changed once again the focus of family life to the detriment of community life and everything else?" We have also observed the distortion in the retail sector over a considerable period of time. There have been many changes, including the change away from the high street towards out-of-town shopping centres. There has also been change within the food sector, with supermarkets becoming fewer in number and bigger and having a greater and greater market share, for all sorts of reasons. That is not, overall, in the best interests of consumers. Once again, may I express my conservative belief in a viable independent retail sector and in smaller family-run businesses that provide a good service. We are all aware that the small corner shop has been hit by Sunday opening. We are also aware that families have a finite amount of money to spend. That finite amount is even more tightly drawn during a recession. Seven-day opening will result in costs and overheads rising. A further share of the market will be taken away from smaller retail outlets that may be unable to open or that may not wish to open on Sundays. That will eventually lead to consumers having less choice. There will be a reduction in retail outlets. There will certainly be fewer of the smaller and medium-sized outlets which need our interest and, to a certain extent, our protection.

The solution of those who favour total deregulation is that shops should be allowed to open for six hours. I am the first to admit that this appears to be a simple solution, but we must not be fooled by it. What they really mean is total deregulation. They believe that if the House were to pass such a measure, it would be the first acceptable step towards winning the bigger apple of total deregulation that is fully supported by many of the big multiples. They have generously funded a nationwide campaign to convert Members of Parliament, opinion-makers outside the House and others. By having been allowed to break the law, they are now able to turn round and say, "Look, so many people want to shop and so many people want to be employed on Sundays."

It is not good enough that the Government of the day, whom I support, have allowed that situation to develop. I deplore the way in which the big stores have flagrantly broken the letter of the law by opening on Sundays, to the detriment of their law-abiding competitors, which, in some cases, have been forced to join them in order to retain their share of the market and to prevent it from being further eroded. The simplicity of the six-hour solution must be seen through. It is a Trojan horse. No cast-iron guarantee

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can be given by anybody that the six-hour solution is precisely right. The Minister cannot give such a guarantee ; nor can those who support the six-hour option. Frankly, it is worthless. What we are talking about is either total deregulation or some form of regulation.

There is much in our national life that is to be admired, the value of which is often not fully appreciated until too late. The traditional Sunday, which has evolved with social changes over the years, is one such example. Today we talk so often of the price of everything but rarely about its value. When the House makes its judgment later today, I hope that it will bear that point in mind and give a fair wind to the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) so that these important issues can be fully debated in Committee and changes introduced, if the Committee so wishes. We shall then be able to resolve the difficulties that now face people over our Sunday trading legislation.

1.49 pm

Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) : I commend the hon. Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton) for making one point very clear, which is that what is on offer is an option to choose this Bill, on which we have a free vote, or a Government Bill on total deregulation and no employee protection. The House will have noticed that, in his Keep Sunday Special contribution, the Minister emphasised the retailing aspects of the Bill. He did not refer to the other aspects of the Keep Sunday Special campaign. We had to rely on the hon. Members for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) and for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) to tell us about the other aspects of keeping Sunday special, which are the religious aspects, the Christian ethic to which we subscribe, and the foundation of our society which has sustained us for so many years. The option is clear. We might wait for a year--it will certainly not happen this year or this parliamentary Session--for a Government Bill which will support total deregulation with no employee protection. That is what is on offer for the Opposition.

I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock) for having to argue what she described as a principled abstention. Opposition Members do not believe in the concept of principled abstention. I sympathise with my hon. Friend because she had a difficult brief.

Mrs. Dunwoody : On a point of procedure, there is no such vote as a principled abstention in the House of Commons. The idea that one can register an abstention in the way that was suggested has grown up from the European Parliament, which of course, is not a Parliament in the normal sense of the word.

Mr. Bell : I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) for making that procedural point. This is the "last chance saloon". Those words were not used by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) or by the hon. Member for Congleton, but they both said that this is our last opportunity to maintain and defend the traditional Sunday. That is what we shall vote on today.

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The speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) was one of the most dramatic and exalting that we have heard. She referred to family values, employment protection and Sunday trading. Sparing the blushes of my own general secretary, Mr. John Edmonds, he has not understood that what is on offer for his 60,000 members is deregulation and minimum statutory provision. The hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) said that we should listen to Mr. John Edmonds, who has 60,000 members in the shops industry. Opposition Members wait to see how the hon. Gentleman votes on Third Reading of the Employment Bill, which abolishes wages councils. About 2 million women workers will be affected by that legislation.

Hon. Members heard the right hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame A. Rumbold) talk about women working. We have heard much about women working and about part-time working. However, we do not hear that it takes five years for a part-time worker to get to an industrial tribunal. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner), has tabled a motion and written a succinct letter to all hon. Members about that matter. A Minister has said that there will be a free vote on employment protection when, in Committee, he is abolishing the wages councils. Are we so naive after 13 years of opposition, that that is the route which we agree to go down? That is not the route which we should adopt.

I invite my colleagues to accept that the principles put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore are the only likely opportunity of bringing about the statutory change that we want.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore persistently said, this is a Second Reading debate. We are not in Committee, but the Minister fell for the trap set by his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern), because he talked about the detail of the Bill. The hon. Member for Bristol, North-West read from a letter sent out by Boots which contained a series of questions tabled by the company--it also answered them! The hon. Member for Bristol, North-West gave those answers to the House--I am sure that he had no intention of misleading the House, but that was the result. This is a Second Reading on a Bill of principle. The Bill will be considered in detail in Committee when substantial amendments can be drafted--that is the purpose of Committees. The Bill represents our "last chance saloon" and we must support my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore.

1.54 pm

Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire) : The hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) said that he wanted hon. Members to declare their interests and I should like to declare mine. I do a seven-day-a-week job. I work in London for four days and for three days, except on odd Fridays like today, I am in my constituency also working. The only opportunity I get to do my shopping is on Sunday afternoons in Safeway in Lichfield.

The genie has been let out of the bottle and he cannot be put back. Sunday trading exists. Many people find it more convenient, as I do, to shop on Sunday than on other days, because that fits in with their lifestyle. If they did not shop, the stores would not be open.

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