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Mrs. Clwyd : I shall give way when I have completed this point.
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The Minister has been pressed by the Opposition and the Select Committee on National Heritage to give a clear guarantee that Government funding will not be cut in those areas as a result of the lottery. Indeed, we have tabled an amendment to help him to do exactly that. We have gone further, by arguing that the establishment of a national lottery should not be a substitute for necessary increases in Government spending on the arts, sports and heritage. The money must not be seen as a substitute for public spending. It is crucial that that principle is strengthened in the Bill. Is the Minister prepared to do that?Mr. Jessel : A quarter of an hour ago, the hon. Lady said that Government arts funding had steadily reduced. She must be aware that during each of the past three years there has been a substantial increase--last year it was 14 per cent. and in the previous three years it was 9, 10 or 11 per cent.--and was well ahead of inflation, although there has been a hestitation this year because of world recession. She must agree that it was somewhat misleading to the House to talk of a steady reduction. Will she withdraw that remark as I am sure that she would not want to mislead the House?
Mrs. Clwyd : I thought that I had given way to the Minister, but clearly I was misled. Before the hon. Gentleman asks me to withdraw that comment, perhaps he would like to consider the Treasury Select Committee report published on 16 December, which points out that, in real terms, using the Treasury's gross domestic product deflator, the spending of the Department of National Heritage will fall by 5.4 per cent. in 1993-94, compared with expenditure this year. The Committee went on to tell the House that Government spending on the performing arts will fall in real terms by more than 10 per cent. in total during the survey period, compared with 1992-93.
As I said, local authorities are being forced to cut their spending on the arts and sports because of the squeeze that the Government have put on their budgets. We believe that without that commitment to additionality, the national lottery becomes a sort of voluntary taxation scheme--buy a ticket and cut the budget. In the present chaotic state of Government finance--where the Conservative party is lost without a map in a financial maze of its own making--the temptation to cut money for the arts, sport and heritage and to transfer the burden to the lottery will be great. The Treasury should not be permitted to raid the coffers of the lottery to cover up its complete failure to manage the economy.
I see that the former Secretary of State for National Heritage, the right hon. and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), is giving his right hon. Friend some advice--presumably on how to answer my questions when he sums up the debate.
A useful document fell into my hands-- [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. There is too much conversation behind the hon. Lady, which seems particularly discourteous to her.
Mrs. Clwyd : Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that it was not meant as such. I think that the hilarity was caused by the previous intervention.
A useful document has fallen into my hands--the Conservative party research department's brief for Members. It states :
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"Wherever possible, lottery money will be given on a partnership basis, with donations from the private sector or local authorities augmenting input from lottery funds. In this way the Lottery will help even more good causes. However, those groups who are unable to provide matching funds from their own resources will not be at a disadvantage when bidding for funds".I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that. Can he explain precisely what it means? Will cash-strapped local authorities be expected to put up large amounts of money to match lottery finance for arts and sports projects?
One remembers how the Government behaved over the argument with the European Community on additionality. We have every reason to suspect that they will be less than honest in protecting core funding from central Government to the arts, sport and heritage.
Under the Bill, the Secretary of State assumes large powers over lottery regulation and the allocation of lottery revenue. We have asked for an assurance that once the lottery is operating he will not use those powers to make sudden or sweeping changes--for example, in the share-out of funds- -without returning to the House.
The Minister has given no undertaking to rethink the extent of the powers that he has assumed under the Bill. We argue that Parliament should be able to influence the use of those powers and we believe that the directions that the Secretary of State can give to the distributing bodies, under clause 24, should be used to increase access and involvement in arts, culture and recreation, with a special commitment to equal opportunities in participation and employment.
Mr. Brooke : I do not think that either of us would wish to mislead the House. In my speech I said that the allocations of 20 per cent. for each of the five categories are on the face of the Bill and would be subject to affirmative resolution. I expected Parliament to express its opinion on whether the proportion going to each cause was right.
Mrs. Clwyd : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that explanation. We are firmly of the view that the national lottery charities board, set out in clauses 32 to 35, should be broadly representative, socially and geographically. The Government have a well-known passion for quangos--usually containing a clutch of their relatives and supporters. Will the Minister assure us that membership of the national lottery charities board will consist of people widely respected among charity workers and not contributors to Tory election funds? Will he ensure that membership of the board includes the people whom voluntary organisations seek to serve, such as disabled or mentally handicapped people?
The Opposition have serious anxieties about the effect of the national lottery on the level of funds donated to charities. What further action will the Minister take to ensure that the status and role of charities is not marginalised in our society? Research by the National Council for Voluntary Organisations estimates that in 1990-91 local authorities reduced funding to voluntary organisations by £29 million. Unfortunately, that is likely to continue while pressures on local authority spending are maintained. Will national lottery proceeds for charity be taken into account by central and local government when deciding on discretionary grants to voluntary organisations? Perhaps the Minister would care to enlighten us about that.
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We want the millenium fund to be broadly based. Its projects should not be narrowly metropolitan and I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his assurance about that. It should aim to widen access to the arts and culture in the nations and regions of Britain. Any attempt to use the Millenium Commission as a slush fund for the Tory party and its friends to pour funds into marginal constituencies for political advantage will be carefully monitored.We also want to know what guidelines the Secretary of State will lay down for the director general when selecting the franchise holder. What sort of guarantees of probity will be demanded? Will the director general clarify in advance what he expects from the franchise holders, particularly in terms of an acceptable level of turnover for administration, promotion and control of the circumstances in which lottery tickets can be sold? The Secretary of State has given us the benefit of some of his thinking on those issues this afternoon.
We believe that taxation on the national lottery should not be set at a level that stifles the lottery's principal purpose--to raise money for new projects in the arts, sports and heritage. We believe that the maximum proportion of national lottery revenue to be devoted to tax and administration should be no higher than 15 per cent. In the past, the Opposition have supported the general principle of a national lottery as a means to raise new money for the arts, sports and heritage projects. Clearly, new theatres, sports centres and swimming pools can raise the quality of life for everyone. Historic buildings and monuments could be restored and many charities could receive a welcome boost of cash--that is the theory. However, we have grave doubts, which have not yet been satisfactorily answered by the Government. We have genuine concerns and deserve a full and honest reply from the Conservative party.
5.1 pm
Mr. Kenneth Baker (Mole Valley) : It will not come as a surprise to the House to learn that I warmly welcome the Bill. It implements, in almost precise terms, the proposals that I laid before the House in a White Paper last March to introduce a national lottery. I warmly welcome the speech by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in proposing the Bill. I also welcome part of the speech by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd).
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Not much.
Mr. Baker : No. When the hon. Lady dealt with the details of the lottery, she was positive and helpful, but she was searching for a principle on which to oppose it.
Having listened to the debate, I have been struck by the amount of discussion on employment considerations in Merseyside, Glasgow and Cardiff. However, the national lottery raises much broader and more national considerations. I shall later deal with the pools and what I believe should be done to help pools companies to deal with the competition of the national lottery.
I am proud to have been the Home Secretary who committed the Government to introducing a national lottery. I was somewhat surprised that it took so long to come about. In 1987, the Rothschild report clearly set out the case for a national lottery--to raise money for good causes. The Bill will substantially increase the sum of human happiness. We rarely have the chance to vote for
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such a Bill. It will improve the quality of life for many hundreds of thousands of people across our country. It draws its inspiration from Denry Machin who, in the final pages of Arnold Bennett's novel "The Card", when asked in which cause he believed, said he believed in the cause of cheering people up. The Bill will create a great deal of cheer around the country-- [Interruption.] The Government need a Bill to cheer people up. I believe that the Bill will enhance the Government's reputation.The Bill will provide money for the arts, sports, charities and those causes on which hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to spend more money. Successive Governments have always found it difficult to provide the amount of money that we should all like to see spent on such causes. I pay tribute to the Labour party which, in the 1960s, pulled together expenditure on the arts and formed the first Ministry for the Arts under the first Minister, Jennie Lee, whom I remember. I believe that she made a significant contribution to the cause of cheering us all up. That was only a beginning, which successive Governments have built on and extended to cover sport as well.
Successive Governments have found it difficult to provide the sort of money required. During my ministerial career I was responsible for the heritage budget and the sports budget. Both budgets were increased while I was responsible for them--as the House would expect--but not to the extent that I would have liked. I had a reputation in the Treasury of not knowingly being underbid.
Mr. David Mellor (Putney) : Hear, hear.
Mr. Baker : I have the confirmation of a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
I believe that the money available from the lottery will benefit the country. I agreed with those parts of the speech by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley in which she recognised that. I suspect that, had Labour won the last election, we would not today be debating a national lottery Bill. I suspect that we would have had to rely on the courage of a private Member such as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) to introduce a private Member's Bill. I hope that the House will proceed with the National Lottery etc. Bill.
How much money will be made available? There have been various estimates. I noticed that there were discussions about the reports of accountants and consultants. My advice to the House is not to give them too much credence, as they are all projections. I suspect that, during the two or three weeks in which we shall debate the future of many of our coal pits, many Opposition Members will say that the reports that have already been published are not worth the paper that they are written on. We shall have to make an assessment of how the pools will be affected based on the best available evidence. The amount of money that will be made available has been estimated at £1 billion, £2 billion, £3 billion and, in some cases, as high as £4 billion in gross take--a substantial amount of money. How much of that money will be available to the good causes? I agree with the hon. Member for Cynon Valley in her hope that the Treasury and the Government will err on the side of generosity. The standard practice in existing lotteries around the world
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seems to be that between 48 and 50 per cent. of the overall take is used in prize money. Of the remaining 50 per cent., the amount spent on administration and commission for the people who sell the tickets can be as much as 15 per cent., which leaves 35 per cent. I notice that, during some of the lobbying that we have heard, people have said that all the take should go to the good causes. I should like to see that in an ideal world, but we do not live in an ideal world. The Treasury exists and will want a take. I hope that it will take as little as possible. I dare say that it is asking for 20 per cent.--I have no idea whether I am right as such facts are not leaked. It may be asking for 20 per cent. and it may settle for 15 per cent.--I hope that it will settle for 10 per cent., which will leave 25 per cent. available for distribution.If the Treasury wants to try to take more money out of the available pool, it might consider placing a levy on some of the bigger prizes--for example, 5 per cent. on prizes of more than £5,000.
Mr. Graham : Why should the Government take anything if they are going to gain major benefits to help with sports and other activities? Why do they not leave all the money?
Mr. Baker : There is a case for such a policy, and I have heard it argued, but we live in the real world and the Treasury will want to take some tax. That seems to be the pattern with other lotteries, and I base my recommendation on that realistic assessment.
Whatever effect the Bill may have on the pools, it is undoubtedly a job- positive measure. Not only will jobs be created in the administration of the national lottery, but the national lottery funds will generate a spend of possibly as much as £1 billion in the arts and sports. That money could be used for building new sports stadia, supporting creative sports and artistic activities and improving our national heritage. The new jobs will be spread throughout the country. Some estimates put the number of new jobs as high as 80,000 a year. On the whole, the measure will be job- positive.
Mr. Alton : What is the right hon. Gentleman's best estimate of the loss in revenue to the Exchequer caused by the inevitable reduction in the £300 million received by the Treasury last year from the pools industry?
Mr. Baker : The hon. Gentleman is assuming that there will be a rapid and dramatic reduction in pool betting. I shall take up that assumption in a moment.
Some of the charities seem to be concerned that they will lose money if the Bill is enacted. I do not believe that that will happen. Indeed, the outcome of the Bill could be an additional source of revenue for them. Those who choose to have a flutter on the national lottery--£1.50, £2 or £1 a week--are not likely to divert such moneys from charitable causes. The Government have made some sensible changes to the law that relates to smaller lotteries, from which many small charities derive.
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, the Government will be able to review the position. The proportion of moneys that will go to each of the five beneficiaries is set out in the Bill, but it could be varied from Parliament to Parliament according to order. If it could be shown that charities were suffering--I do not
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think that that would be possible--the House would have the opportunity to vary the moneys going to charities by means of dispensations.The position of the pools does not constitute a case for not having a national lottery. Some of the pools argued that a few years ago but that has now stopped. The effect on the pools tends to be exaggerated. I accept that it is a matter of conjecture, but I spoke to the pools and to various individuals within the companies. The pools have enjoyed a privileged position for many years. In effect, three companies have had a monopoly in pool soft gambling. I am not surprised that they are not welcoming competition with open arms. There is talk of a level playing field, but is it reasonable to have a level playing field between pools that are operated for profit and a national lottery that is operated for good causes? I am not so sure that it is. With hard and soft gambling there is virtually no level playing field when it comes to the various things that make up gambling enterprises.
My right hon. Friend used rather a good phrase when he referred to adjacent playing fields. That is true, for example, of the laws relating to dog racing and horse racing. There is different legislation. On and off-course betting is treated differently. With soft gambling, there is different legislation for bingos and small lotteries. In other words, there is no consistency.
Part of the case that has been advanced by the pools is reasonable. The organisations have asked, however, for a series of changes which would, in effect, make them a separate national lottery. I do not believe that that status should be granted to them. On the other hand, it is reasonable to make some concessions. One such concession that would be reasonable is the sale of coupons in retail outlets. That seems sensible. For the reasons that I have given, I do not believe that there is a case for the same tax treatment. One system is operated for profit and the other for good causes. Should there be some relaxation on advertising? I think that that would depend upon the terms of advertising that are agreed by the Secretary of State. I understand the concerns of hon. Members about employment considerations, but there is a positive aspect. The positive job creation possibility of a national lottery is much greater than the possibility of job losses. I think that the possible losses are exaggerated.
Mr. Baker : That will be a matter for the Secretary of State and the director general of the national lottery. As it is a national matter, the impact could be spread across the country.
For all of the reasons that I have outlined, I warmly welcome the Bill. It will considerably improve our capacity as a country to improve the quality of life of not only a few people but of people throughout the country.
Mrs. Wise : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Baker : I am just about to conclude my remarks.
The Bill will improve the quality of life of those who participate in sport. When it comes to the distribution of moneys in sport, I hope that the bias will be towards support for young people who participate in sport. That is one of the great advantages of a national lottery. The same applies to those who participate in the arts and in the
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appreciation of our national heritage. As I have said, the Bill will increase the sum of human happiness. I hope that we shall all support it.5.14 pm
Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw) : It is obvious from the questions that have been asked and the various points made that a major missing piece in the jigsaw is the report that was commissioned by the Government--it cost £55,000 of public money--to try to ascertain what would happen if the Bill were enacted. The report of the GAH group was leaked.
I was a member of the Select Committee on the National Heritage that considered a national lottery. The members of that Committee strenuously questioned the Minister, who refused to give us any details on the ground of commercial secrecy. Why did he take that view? The franchise has not been granted. Those who are applying for it should have copies of the report. If they can have the report, why cannot hon. Members? Why cannot the public read it? After all, it was they who paid for it. There is a conspiracy of silence.
The Government propose to set up something that would have a turnover of about £1,500 million a year. That is getting on for the turnover of British Coal. There is all the fuss about British Coal, but in this context its turnover is only about £1.8 billion. If the Bill is enacted, the Government will set up a new industry with a turnover of £1,500 million a year, yet there is nothing before the House except the Bill. That is because some of those who are seeking the franchise are likely to lose their shirts.
I met one of the leading contenders for the franchise. I shall not name him --we did not meet in confidence--because it would not be fair to do so. I asked him how his company would go about launching the national lottery if it secured the franchise. He said that it would have 10,000 outlets. He told me that that was all it could have in the first year. That means that each outlet would have to take £2,800 a week in £1 bets. If we take the local grocer--Mr. Patel--a newsagent or whatever, those businesses do not take £2,800 a week, never mind £2,800 in £1 bets, but that is the sort of turnover that the Government are expecting. I suspect that the Government took the turnover of the national lottery in Ireland, multiplied that by the population of the United Kingdom and decided that that would be the turnover of the proposed national lottery. In taking that approach they forgot, it seems, that Ireland does not provide anything like the scope for the pools that is available in the United Kingdom. Let us consider how £2,800 a week might be gathered. First, it must be recognised that the system will have to be computerised. There can be no slippage in a national lottery. Anyone who runs a raffle or something of that sort will know that one collector in 1,000 will be tempted not to put in the money that he has collected. That collector will put the money in his back pocket or say, "I will have this bet myself." We cannot have that in a national lottery. It seems that it will cost £7,000 to instal in a shop a computerised system that will enable a member of the public to get a bet on the big jackpot half an hour before it takes place. A receipt will be given and the bet will have to go down to London or wherever to the headquarters of the national lottery. It will have to be recorded because the system will be taking bets right up to the time of the draw--let us say 8 pm on a Saturday night when Princess Di
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draws the big jackpot, or when Jeremy Beadle is on. It will be necessary to have people like that to hype it up and promote the system. That is what the Government are talking about introducing. Let us say that there are 10,000 outlets with a computerised system that costs £7,000 apiece. That means that those who launch the franchise will have to spend about £70 million to £80 million, if my arithmetic is right. It will be a massive injection of cash. Unless they have seen the report, they have no real prospect of getting that money back.When it comes to collection, there is talk of paying commission of 6 per cent. to the guy who runs the newsagency, for example. As I said, I do not think that he will take £2,800 a week. It will be more like £100 a week. That means that for six quid a week he will look after the machinery, take the money and hand over the tickets. The commission of pools collectors is 15 per cent., not 6 per cent. These facts decide the structure of lotteries, whether we are talking about pools or a national lottery.
The pools business depends on 75,000 door-knockers. Every Friday night the collectors knock on doors and they will ask, "Mrs. Brown, are you having your two quids worth ?" Mrs. Brown will then have her flutter, which often will be based on dole numbers, birthdays or whatever. The collector will then move on to the next house. That is how the money is collected. The pools organisations fear that if the collectors start to do something else, such as issuing national lottery tickets, their business will collapse in a couple of months, along with the jobs of the collectors.
These matters have been examined by the secret report. The public's money was used to enable investigations to be carried out to ascertain the long- term effect on jobs. Those engaged in producing the report have considered the number of outlets that will be required, mechanisation and the way in which cash will be collected, but these matters have never been explained publicly. None of the findings of the report have been put before the House. We are about to set up a mammoth industry without any of the details and the facts being provided. It is not good enough.
The pools companies are right to demand a level playing field. They should be allowed to have roll-up prizes. Under the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963, if the pools companies take in £2 million this week, they must pay out £2 million this week. The same applies to bingo. If Granada takes a certain amount of bingo money tonight, it must pay out that money tonight. The money cannot be rolled over. The pools companies cannot hold back 10 per cent. for a big jackpot every three months. That would be an absolute bonanza. Why are they prohibited from doing that when the national lottery will be allowed to do it ? The Government are supposed to believe in free enterprise and the free market, yet they are virtually setting up a nationalised industry, to which they will grant enormous advantages at the expense of private industries.
What is wrong with the pools companies advertising on television ? There is no logical reason for stopping them doing that. Why are they not allowed to have the same sales outlets ? There is no logical reason for that. The Government and the potential franchisees are scared stiff that if the pools companies obtain a level playing field and freedom to operate they will take the national lottery to
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the cleaners. Those are the secrets in the report. For political reasons the Government dare not take a chance on the national lottery being a flop. If it is, they will again have egg on their face and they do not want that.Perhaps I should declare an interest as I am a director--unpaid--of Sheffield Wednesday football club. Indeed, it costs money to be a director of a football club. I should explain how the Football Trust came about. When I first came to the House, Denis Howell was the Minister responsible for sport. The very first Committee of which I was a member considered the Horserace Betting Levy Bill. The then Labour Government decided to take 8 per cent. tax on every bet and give the money to the tracks. No one was going to the tracks, so they could not afford prize money. That meant that people could not afford to run race horses or breed them. Horse racing was going down the pan because of the introduction of betting offices and television. The betting offices were set up so that the Government could tax them. When I was a lad a bookie used to stand on every street corner in every working-class area. He would wear a big mack with a pocket that went all the way around. He stuffed the bets in that pocket and then paid out that evening in the billiard hall, the pub or whatever. The bookie's runner would watch for the punters and they would go off down the street and hide in somebody's toilet.
Selwyn Lloyd was very smart and said, "There is a lot of money to be made. If we legalise that sort of betting we can bring in at least £500 million." That was a mammoth amount of money at that time, so that was what the Labour Government did. It worked marvellously. Then, the Labour Government said that if they could do that with horse racing, they could do it with football.
In the Ibrox disaster 65 people were killed. In later years, 95 people were killed at Hillsborough. There was a fire at Bradford and 57 people died. The Heysel stadium is not in Britain, but 37 more people were killed there. In just over 10 years of football disasters more than 200 people were killed. After the Ibrox disaster, the pools companies were scared stiff that a levy would be imposed on them just as it had been imposed on horse racing, so they volunteered to hand over some cash. They went to Denis Howell in 1974--I was his parliamentary private secretary at the time--and volunteered to pay for improvements to football grounds. Since that day, they have provided the money for 70 per cent. of all football ground improvements. That is part of the reason for the current row. It is not just about jobs at the pools companies, but the mammoth number of jobs created through building work on football grounds.
Following the Hillsborough disaster, Lord Justice Taylor said that every football stadium had to be all-seater. That involves a mammoth amount of work. The former Secretary of State for National Heritage, the right hon. and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), exempted the two lower divisions. We were grateful for that because there was no way in which the costs of that work could be met. The Government said that the work to make the stadiums all-seater had to be completed by 1994, so there are just two more summers in which that work can be done. It cannot be done in the playing season because the cranes cannot go on to the pitch.
That necessary safety work is being paid for indirectly by the pools companies. If the pools are knocked sideways, the money spent on the necessary safety work at football grounds will disappear. That work creates hundreds of
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thousands of jobs. For example, Arsenal is building a new stand costing £2.5 million, as is Manchester United. Leeds is spending £2 million and Sheffield Wednesday £1.5 million. The list is endless. An enormous amount of building work is under way because 200 people have been killed in a decade. That is one reason why many of us are saying strongly that the pools companies should not be hampered. We are concerned not just about the Liverpool jobs, but about many other jobs and a great deal of development. The Government's policy is inconsistent. They have ordered the football clubs to build all-seater stadiums while saying that the funding for that will be cut off at source.There are many questions that the Secretary of State has not answered. We asked them in the Select Committee and he hid behind the cloak of confidentiality. How can the report be kept confidential? Any potential franchisee making a bid will need to lay out about £80 million to install computerised paying-in equipment in shops and so on. They are not allowed to operate the lottery from pubs, which will cost them a lot of money. How could any franchisee take on the job without seeing the report? If potential franchisees can see the report, the House is entitled to see it. We should see it before we make up our minds about the Bill. It is not too late to show it to the Committee. It is imperative that before the House makes a major decision it is allowed to see the report.
5.27 pm
Mr. David Mellor (Putney) : I am pleased to join my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on introducing the Bill. It is not a trivial matter to introduce a national lottery. It requires an enormous amount of work not only to get the legal framework right, but to implement it and to ensure that proper arrangements exist to administer and regulate it. That has required an enormous amount of effort in a very short time from a new Department. I congratulate my right hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, and all those who have worked for them on the Bill.
Although I am starting my speech before 6 pm, I intend to honour the 10- minute rule because so many other hon. Members wish to speak. I also bear in mind that Sir Patrick Hastings, a leading defence counsel, once said, "If you have to address the jury for more than 10 minutes, you have too much to explain away." I shall try to be brief.
I commend what my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley said because he mentioned a number of points that concern me. I was one of those who were sceptical for a long time about a national lottery. I was certainly not the first to be converted to the idea. My eventual reason for supporting it was not just that Albania had shuffled off into the ranks of national lottery countries and we were therefore the only country in Europe without one. I had a rather more substantive reason based on my experience as Minister for the Arts, Secretary of State for National Heritage and Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The Government had honoured their commitments to a host of potential beneficiaries of the lottery--for example, the Government are spending three times as much in real terms on the arts than was spent in the days of Jennie Lee, commendable though that start was. There will always be huge areas of our sporting infrastructure, arts and heritage that cannot be developed by conventional Government
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funding. I am an unashamed advocate of state funding and I am proud of the fact that in the two years that I was either Minister for the Arts or Chief Secretary to the Treasury the grant to the Arts Council increased by nearly 30 per cent. I always felt that there was a need for an even greater quantum leap.I suspect that those previous two years were not of great assistance to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I dare say that the Treasury argued, "The arts did so well in the last two years, now that the going is getting a bit tough they should suffer a little now." Whatever we say about the detail of the Bill, most of us are here to debate it because we care about certain aspects of our national life and want them enhanced and advanced.
I have reached the settled conclusion that only a national lottery can achieve that, but, before we embark on that course, we must look at the small print and need to be rigorous in our thinking about one or two aspects.
I make no apology for repeating two points--one of which was rightly raised by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and followed up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley, because here is where the bodies are potentially buried. I want my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to know that he has considerable support from the Conservative Benches in his efforts to beat off some of the host of unenlightenment within the Government's ranks. In a speech as Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for the Valley of the Moles--that always sounds more interesting than Mole Valley--delivered these ringing and entirely appropriate sentences : "I must emphasise that this will be additional funding. The Government do not intend that the money provided from the lottery should substitute for existing expenditure programmes."--[ Official Report , 6 March 1992 ; Vol. 205, col. 563.]
The only basis on which I--as someone who cares about the arts and sport-- could possibly commend to the many bodies that want the national lottery that it will be a good thing for this country is if that undertaking is honoured to the letter. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State repeated the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley, but there was an interruption at that point.
I hope that it will be made clear that both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister have beaten off any attempt by the Treasury to behave like barrack-room lawyers and put an entirely false gloss on the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley. Having been a Treasury Minister, I know that my right hon. and hon. Friends have a jolly difficult job to do.
Those who care about the arts and heritage will be buying a pig in a poke unless it is made clear that national lottery income will not be subtracted from existing state commitments. I appreciate that if a body is looking for a large increase in arts funding from the Government, it is plainly material--when weighing up other priorities--whether or not that interest is already receiving money from the national lottery, which may be a reason for any increase in state funding not being so great. It is important that the Government do not attempt to slough off responsibility by having a national lottery.
The lottery will only be worth something if it provides a quantum leap forward for the interests in question. Otherwise, I do not think that we need it.
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Mr. Burns : Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Mellor : I will be in trouble with my 10 minutes. It is not that I will not give way, but many right hon. and hon. Members want to make a contribution--and I want to try to keep at least one promise as a politician.
As to taxation, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set it out very well. Of the proceeds from the lottery, 50 per cent. will go in prize money. That is the international average and there is no reason to go below that figure. A further 15 per cent. will go on administration. That is pretty good--if the figure can be kept down to that, we shall have done pretty well. My rudimentary O level in mathematics produces a total of 65 per cent. leaving 35 per cent. If the Treasury honours the undertakings on public expenditure made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley when Home Secretary, I would not disagree with the Treasury having a revenue base. However, there is no point to our putting before the public a national lottery that is intended to raise money for good causes and then expect the public to swallow the fact that the principal good cause is the Treasury. For all that the Treasury believes itself to be a socially beneficial organisation, the truth is that many people would take some persuading of that.
I hope that the issue is not being shrouded in Budget secrecy--a concept that I believe is long overdue for change, now that Treasury omniscience is perhaps no longer as credible as it once was. I hope also that the question of the tax base will be open to collective discussion. If the tax is 20 per cent. and, after all the fuss and bother of helping good causes, the contribution falls to 15 per cent.--3 per cent. of the total take for the five categories--many will begin to wonder whether it is worth pushing this boulder uphill just to achieve that-- [Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear!"] I say that in clear terms and I am glad that I am not alone in marking those cards. I hope that my view will be shared not only by my right hon. and hon. Friends but across the House.
I endorse the remarks of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton)--for whom, as he knows, I have a high regard--about the work of the Football Trust. As someone who cares about football, I know how much good it has done. I mention also the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, which has proved valuable. Provided that the pools companies' proposals take the form of an a la carte and not a table d'ho te menu--in other words, one can pick a dish or two without having to sample the whole lot--I am sure that, in the sensible accommodations that we make in the House, it should be possible to reach some form of agreement.
I enjoy the warmest friendships with a number of people in the pools industry and I believe that it will flourish as part of the warp and weft of the British way of doing things. However, I do not believe that the pools can be put on the same level or platform as the national lottery. The whole idea of having such a lottery is that it is something special. It is not meant to be a way of assassinating the gatekeeper or the controls of gambling so that other forms of gambling can come through and be subject to the same concessions. Those of us who appreciate irony, as I have had to do in my career, now know that the champions of private
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enterprise are to be found on the Labour Benches, while my right hon. and hon. Friends are arguing for some public good. It is a funny old world. I am not original in saying that, but it is a funny old world.Let us not take matters too far. By all means let us stick up for the pools, but they cannot be equated with the national lottery. It would be an awful shame if the great vision of a national lottery were borne down by a tidal wave of special pleading for the pools, however firmly based, by certain regional interests.
When I was originally rather resistant to the idea of a national lottery, it seemed to me that so many people would want to benefit from one, and that so many vested interests would not want it to be an all-singing, all- dancing show, that we would end up with some half-hearted effort. It would be like the prototype steam vehicle. To keep it safe and to ensure no other interests were damaged, a man had to walk along in front, carrying a red flag.
If there emerges from this parliamentary process a half-hearted, apologetic scheme that has been so amended and subject to so many restrictions that it cannot do the business and raise money, let us not bother with it. After all, we have all those exciting nights ahead on the Maastricht Bill, so why trouble ourselves with another exercise in futility ? We have already spent hours debating, on Maastricht, something that the public have forgotten about--but that is another story. Since I do not intend to participate in that debate, why should I not say so ?
If we will a national lottery, let us will an effective mechanism that will raise hundreds of millions of pounds--perhaps even billions. It will then be something of which we can be proud and which will make better provision for the cultural and sporting fabric of our society. We all know that that is long overdue--and if the Bill will achieve that, I am all for it.
5.38 pm
Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland) : I am particularly glad to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), who is the third right hon. Member to speak from the Conservative Benches apparently intent on lifting the spirits of the nation with a Bill to enhance our funds.
I remind the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) that a similar idea crossed the mind of Nero, who was the last Roman emperor to introduce a lottery. One can exaggerate the excitement that is felt outside, throughout the country, at the prospect of another source of that which the Secretary of State described as another deposit for marginal disposable income, at a time when marginal disposable income sometimes means the difference between being hungry and not. That is particularly harshly felt by those out of work. I cannot improve on what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) about the complete lack of amusement on Merseyside that greeted the Bill's publication and its presentation to Parliament ; but I doubt that there is any joy either on the streets of Cardiff, Glasgow or London, where many thousands of workers may be at risk of losing their jobs.
The Secretary of State described the Bill as forward looking. That claim is pretty rich. The right hon. Gentleman himself pointed out that the House last considered this matter seriously in 1826, and I suppose that the heyday of the national lottery was the 18th
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