House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Jan 1993

Mrs. Jane Kennedy (Liverpool, Broadgreen) : I echo the interests that the hon. Member for Crosby (Sir M. Thornton) has declared. My interests lie with those of my constituents who work for the pools or who live in families where one or other members of them are employed by the pools on Merseyside.

I was disappointed to hear the way in which the arguments of football pools workers and those of the Pool Promoters Association were summarily dismissed by the Secretary of State for National Heritage and other Conservative Members. I have much in mind the case that

Column 775

has been made about job losses and the fears that have been expressed for the future of the pools industry if the Bill is enacted.

The football pools game, as it exists in the United Kingdom, is a hybrid of the lotteries and football games that exist in Europe. In the way in which it is played, it is unique to the United Kingdom. It is so close to a lottery Euro-style, however, that it is almost indistinguishable. Both games involve long-odds gambling. Both offer a high win for a low stake, which are the key motivating factors which cause people to play the pools here and lotto in Europe. The argument frequently advanced by the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State before the Select Committee and in public that there would be only one national lottery gives the game away to some extent. It is clear that the Government are prepared to see the demise of football pools if that is what it takes to establish a successful national lottery. I accept that it may be possible for a national lottery and the football pools to co-exist, but that will be possible only if they are able to compete fairly. As the lottery and the pools would be competing for the same market, they should compete on fair terms.

The Coopers and Lybrand report that was commissioned by the Pools Promoters Association and published in May suggests, unlike the report on which the Government rely, that the propensity to bet in the United Kingdom cannot increase very much without adversely affecting the pools. As a Merseyside Member, I point out that entire families are employed in the industry, which has been a source of secure employment for decades. To put that at risk with a gamble without taking steps to safeguard the interests of those who are employed by the pools is shameful.

There have been several reports on the possible revenue that might be raised from a national lottery. The White Paper estimated a potential revenue of £3 billion. The Sports and Arts Council, the Henley centre, London Economics and Saatchi and Saatchi estimate £2 billion, £3 billion, £1.3 billion and £1.6 billion respectively, while the GAH group estimates a massive £4.2 billion. Those who hope to profit from the introduction of a lottery pick the figure that they hope will be achieved and begin immediately to spend the proceeds. Talk about counting chickens before they are hatched. The one point of agreement in all the reports is that the pools will be adversely affected through lower turnover, which will lead inevitably to job losses. The introduction of a national lottery on terms that do not allow the pools to compete fairly may cause the collapse of the pools. The Government cannot be sure that that will not happen. It is not only employment in the pools industry that will suffer. We must consider also the jobs of those in businesses that rely on the pools. For example, N&B Direct Ltd has printed Vernons pools coupons since the early 1950s. That work is 70 per cent. of their business. If Vernons goes under, so will N&S Direct Ltd and 75 more jobs will be lost. Littlewoods estimates that if it suffers large losses, at least a further 800 jobs will be lost in the businesses that rely upon it. As corporate and consumer expenditure decreases, so other areas of the local economy will be affected.

Column 776

What will be the Government's response? Rather than significant policies aimed at regeneration and growth, they will infest rundown areas with billboards encouraging people to play the lottery. Perhaps they will use the words, "This could be your ticket out of here." If the House thinks that no Government would be so cruel, I assure hon. Members that those were the exact words on a billboard in inner-city Chicago used to sell the Illinois state lottery as short a time ago as last summer.

To achieve the £4.2 billion estimated by the GAH group, 65 per cent. of the population have to participate, with games being run initially once a week, but quickly moving to twice-weekly draws and daily prizes. That could be sustained only with blanket television advertising. No other study among those that I mentioned has accepted that that can be achieved. Without similar opportunities to advertise on television, the pools companies will quickly find themselves with a loss.

The Coopers and Lybrand study said that without fair

competition--and bearing in mind the two important incentives that I mentioned of the large prize and the small stake--more than 80 per cent. of pools players would split their stake between the lottery and the pools in the first weeks of the lottery. That could cause a drop in revenue to Littlewoods alone of 30 per cent., which would impact on its first prize, dropping it from £2 million to an estimated £800,000. The downward spiral from there is obvious. If we ignore that, we risk the thousands of jobs in Liverpool.

That downward spiral can be combated only if the pools companies are allowed to advertise their products on television, to sell their coupons through retail outlets and to roll over their prizes to form jackpots. Treating the two games equally for tax purposes is of great importance to the smaller pools companies, which do not have the revenue to spend on television advertising. If Vernons is required to pay much larger sums than the lottery to the Exchequer, its prizes will be reduced in size and consequently its ability to compete will be lost.

When I met the Minister last week, he told me that he could not predict the Government's future spending plans and, therefore, could not guarantee that lottery revenue would always be additional to present levels of public spending on the sports, arts and national heritage. Hon. Members would do well to learn from the American experience of lotteries. In Florida, people thought that the state lottery would provide extra money for education. However, since it introduced its lottery in 1986, the proportion of state tax revenue going to education has fallen. What happened? Legislators played a game of their own--when the lottery proceeds rolled in, less general fund money was given to schools. The lottery inevitably became a funding substitute.

Of course, the Secretary of State will say that that will not happen here, but as I was reminded last week, spending plans are not carved in stone. Who knows what will happen in this country? A future Government might include lottery forecasts in the Budget, as is done in Virginia. Judging by the current Chancellor's success at forecasting, it would not be recommended as a safe bet.

As we have heard, the idea of raising revenue through a lottery is not new. It was abandoned in 1826, all concerned having finally accepted that lotteries were a discreditable business for any Government to become involved in. In 1819, a petition was presented by the then

Column 777

hon. Member for Sheffield, a Mr. Stuart Wortley, which, as reported in columns 1115-16 of the Parliamentary Debates for 22 March of that year,

"most earnestly and respectfully solicit the House, that no bill in future may pass which shall have for its object the raising of money for the public service by way of lottery."

The petition was ordered to lie upon the Table ; presumably, it still does.

A national lottery is a poor substitute for a fair taxation policy, and it is no substitute for a proper plan to tackle unemployment and poverty. On behalf of my constituents who, like those in Sheffield in 1819, believe that state-sponsored gambling is not a proper business for Government, I ask the House not to gamble with their jobs, and I urge hon. Members to decline to give the Bill a Second Reading. 7.45 pm

Sir Ivan Lawrence (Burton) : I am delighted to support the Bill. I am grateful to the Government for picking up the ball that I passed to them and for running with it to the touchline, hopefully to score well with this improved Bill.

The proceeds of the national lottery will be substantial. The public opinion polls have given us some idea of how much will be raised. They show that 72 per cent. of the population will play, so we need only to compare that with European countries to have some idea of the amount involved. In France, 50 per cent. of the population play the national lottery and in Ireland the figure is 60 to 65 per cent. Spain raises between £3 billion and £4 billion with a roughly similar population to that of Britain. Therefore, there is some sign that the Government are being a little careful in placing the overall gain as low as £1.5 billion. The benefits and advantages are so extensive that those who oppose a national lottery are arguing against a tide of public opinion that they cannot possibly withstand.

Of course, I understand the concern of those who represent constituency interests, especially the pools companies in the Liverpool area. I want to make a number of points about that. Before they get too cock-a-hoop, the pools companies should realise that it is actually illegal to pay out a prize of more than £12,000 in any game of chance. It is difficult for them to justify their game, as played at present, as anything more than a game of chance. It is hardly a game of skill. They should bear that in mind when talking about a level playing field. Nevertheless, I support the Select Committee's recommendation that there should be a level playing field. There should be one for everything ; there should be one for the scratch cards. We should not abolish them to help to make other lotteries more viable. In any case, I do not think that that would be achieved.

If those who represent Liverpool are right and 1,000 jobs are lost, that must be weighed against the massive increases in jobs that will be created by the national lottery. Job losses in the pools industry will happen anyway as it comes more technically on line. I do not think that those Labour Members who attack the Government for creating private monopolies in other spheres of the British economy should too strongly justify a private monopoly here and be too fearful of competition. That tends to show, first, that they have not studied some of the statistics, and, secondly, that they have no confidence in the pools industry.

In Britain, we spend about 27p per head on the pools. The people of Europe spend about £1 per head on

Column 778

gambling. That means that there will be a substantial amount of new money. Only about one in three people in this country play the pools. If 72 per cent. of the population say that they will play the lottery, it means that a large number of people who do not play the pools will play the lottery. Therefore, the pools industry need not be too worried. In countries such as Italy, where there is a strong football industry, the pools continue side by side with the lottery, flourishing as they always have done.

While we understand the fears that have been expressed--I would express them myself if I were a Liverpool Member--we must place those fears and concerns in context. We must do likewise with the concern about small charities. Some 56 per cent. of people do not give to charity, so there is the potential to raise a great deal more money for charity through the lottery. I do not believe that when someone knocks on a door and asks for money to repair the leaking local church roof or for the local scout troop, he will get the reply, "I am sorry, I will not give to you because I have already given to the national lottery this week." It does not happen that way. People will continue to give money to local charities. Charities will anyway be one of the substantial beneficiaries of the national lottery, and there is too much concern and fear that small charities will suffer. There is no indication that they are likely to do so.

As for the substitution of the lottery for Government spending, we have the Government's assurance on that. As far as Government assurances are worth anything, that must be worth something. But I will return to that point before I conclude, because I am a tiny bit fearful that when this wonderful Government is replaced by one that finds it more difficult to make the economy work, there might be a temptation to change that.

I said that I am in favour of a level playing field, but it must be level for the pools industry as well. It ought to be just a little careful. It does not give anything like as much money to sport and the arts as a lottery would. I say that as a beneficiary of the Football Trust, which recently gave Burton Albion a substantial amount of money, which put Burton Albion on the map--so now, hopefully, I will not be the only person who attends its matches on Saturday. The pools industry gives only a relatively small proportion of its income to sport and to the arts. The sum total is about £100 million a year, and most of that comes from a reduction in taxation--yet the sports part of the national lottery will produce several times that figure.

The argument that the national lottery will encourage gambling is old fashioned ; it is yesterday's argument ; it is very patronising and authoritarian, and also unrealistic. If we do not have a lottery, a lot of the money will go elsewhere. The Church also has lotteries. It is difficult for religious people to argue today that they do not believe in lotteries. Generally speaking, those who say that others should be forced not to gamble are yesterday's people.

Against that kind of opposition, the national lottery offers so many outstanding opportunities as to make the case for it absolutely overwhelming. Ours will no longer be the only country in the world that does not trust its people to spend money on a lottery. We will keep large sums of money in this country to the benefit of British causes, instead of letting that money go abroad to other countries, to benefit those countries' causes.

We will be able to spend money on the arts that we do not spend at present- -on local theatres, orchestras, and museums, and perhaps also on national concert halls.

Column 779

Germany has 96 more opera houses than Britain. We will be able to spend more on covered tennis courts, athletics tracks, and sports halls. France has 20 times as many tennis courts, and Germany 20 times as many swimming pools as we do. There are 50,000 swimmers in this country, but if they want Olympic-standard training they can choose from only 12 swimming pools.

We will be able to spend more money on stopping our crumbling national heritage from crumbling any further as the waves of tourists swarm around it. Within the £3 billion liberated into the economy, there will be a substantial increase in jobs in the construction and service industries, management, training, architecture, tourism, sporting supplies, the musical and theatrical industries, and so on. Other parts of the country suffering unemployment should also be considered, apart from the people in Liverpool who are fearful that they might suffer.

One of my strongest reasons for supporting the national lottery is that our country has an immense problem with juvenile crime today--so immense that the Home Affairs Select Committee is to make that the subject of its next main investigation. It is generally agreed that one way to reduce juvenile crime--in which the peak age of the offender is 15 or 16--is to get young people to move from mischief making to a leisure interest that is constructive and worth while in the realms of sport, arts, education and other pastimes.

How much less crime would there be in troubled estates in Manchester, Bristol and London if our young people were given a constructive, alternative activity to pursue in their spare time? Claudio Abbado, the great conductor, remarked :

"When young people are playing music together in an orchestra, there's no drug problem."

When there are targeted projects for the young, as there are in Staffordshire, under the police Space programme--which provides activities for young people during school holidays--juvenile crime falls. With so many young people out of work, this is not the time to pass over an opportunity to direct more of our money in to the kind of sporting and arts activities that will lead young people away from the tendency to become involved in crime.

7.55 pm

Mr. Edward O'Hara (Knowsley, South) : Numerous speakers have identified three broad categories of concern about the Bill--moral objections to the promotion and exploitation by the state of gambling ; the impact on the pools industry ; and the impact on charities and voluntary organisations. I have an active interest in all three. As a member of the amusement arcades action group, I am concerned about the promotion and impact of gambling. As a Merseyside Member of Parliament, I am obviously concerned about the Bill's impact on the pools industry. As a trustee of the Community Development Foundation, I am deeply concerned about the impact of a national lottery on local charities and voluntary organisations that operate at community level.

As a member of the amusement arcades action group, I start with a presumption against gambling. That is a moral but also Aristotelian principle. The Aristotelian principle to which I subscribe is that it is better to concentrate one's attention on the likelihood of the impossible than the possibility of the unlikely. In citing

Column 780

Aristotle, I draw to the attention of the Secretary of State the virtues of the Aristotelian maxims of practical wisdom and moderation in presenting his Bill.

I acknowledge that not all right hon. and hon. Members share my moral principles, but I hope that many share my social concern for the problem gambler, and for his or her family, who will be affected by that addiction to gambling. I have no wish to be melodramatic and I freely accept that the problem gambler is not typical. However, for his or her family it is a total problem.

The Government have a duty, and it is their stated policy, not to stimulate gambling. It may be argued that promoting the national lottery does not stimulate gambling, but the Government are circumspect in that regard. They state in the White Paper : "For most people"--

I emphasise the words "most people"--

"participation in the national lottery will provide a harmless form of entertainment. Many countries which have had national lotteries for many years do not report any major adverse social effects." That is guarded language.

Evidence from the United States points to the emergence of lottery addicts and that increased availability of that form of gambling has led to addiction to other forms. I trust that the Government will give the fullest consideration to the moral issues and dangers involved in the proposal to introduce a national lottery. A related moral issue aired by several hon. Members is whether the proceeds should be used to substitute for spending from taxation. That would be a form of parataxation of the most regressive sort if, as estimated, lottery tickets are bought in disproportionately high quantities by those on low incomes.

No doubt we will be assured that the proceeds of the lottery will provide extra funding, but that will be difficult to prove. I assure the Secretary of State that my right hon. and hon. Friends will be vigilant in guarding against attempts by the Government to set expenditure on local projects against local authorities' spending allocations. Such an attempt would be cynical in the extreme. I ask the Secretary of State to give whatever assurance he can that that will not happen. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give such an assurance--because, as he said himself, he cannot predict future Government expenditure--he should say what measures he will seek to introduce to ensure that such a thing does not happen.

As a Member of Parliament representing a Merseyside constituency, of course I share the concerns expressed by my hon. Friends about the effect of the national lottery on the pools industry. Of the 6,500 jobs that it provides, 4,600 or more are on Merseyside. They are expected to halve in the first year of the national lottery's operation and to reduce by three quarters by 1996-97. A further 2,000 jobs in Glasgow, Cardiff and London will disappear almost immediately.

Moreover, not only jobs directly connected with the pools industry will be affected. It is estimated that between 70,000 and 80,000 pools collectors, earning about £20 a week, will be reduced to 30, 000. Their jobs are important to the economy of Merseyside and to the wider economy of the country as a whole.

The process workers in the pools headquarters in Merseyside are mostly female and the Government may regard their jobs as less important than men's--as second incomes supplementing family budgets. Opposition

Column 781

Members reject such prejudice against female workers, who are entitled to work in their own right ; but, even if we leave that argument aside, in an economy as depressed as Merseyside's it is highly likely that such jobs produce the only family wage. Nor must we forget the income lost to the pools collectors. If someone takes on the arduous task of door-to-door collecting for £20 a week, that £20 must make an important difference to the family budget. It must be seen in that light--not as a mere £20 income, but as a £20 loss to a family budget that is already stretched to its limits. The Bill puts between 70,000 and 80,000 such vulnerable family budgets at risk.

We who oppose the Bill are not seduced by suggestions that the pools industry may have the opportunity to administer the national lottery. Certainly, the Merseyside pools companies are well qualified to do so, on grounds of experience, resources and systems. However, we would like more guarantees and such guarantees are contrary to the Government's ideology. We also note that the number of jobs gained would only partly offset the number of jobs lost. Evidence suggests that lotteries can be run on minimal staffing. For example, in the New Jersey lottery, 185 staff were required to administer income of £825 million. In the Pennsylvania state lottery, 161 people were required to administer a turnover of about £1 billion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle) said earlier, 147 people were required to run the West German lottery. To present the pools companies with an offer to run the national lottery is like inviting the work force of the pools industry to apply for membership of the firing squad that will execute those whose applications fail. Much more important, if the lottery is introduced, the pools companies should be allowed to operate on equal terms, as described by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mrs. Kennedy). Five principles should apply. The collection of pools coupons should be allowed from retail outlets ; television advertising should be allowed ; promotion of the game of lucky numbers should be allowed ; roll-up jackpots should be allowed ; and there should be a level playing field on tax outtake.

Let me now turn to the impact on smaller charities and voluntary organisations. I share the general concern that money spent on lottery tickets will largely displace money spent on donations to charities. It is all very well to say that money will be disbursed to charities from the net proceeds of the lottery ; but, to a particular charity, £1 donated is £1 income. NOP research suggests that substitute funding from the proceeds of the lottery may be as little as between 3.5p and 6p for a particular charity. That is the harsh reality behind global figures such as the National Council for Voluntary Organisations' estimate of annual loss to voluntary organisations of £232 million per annum. We must view the problem in terms of the particular impact on particular charities and voluntary organisations--that is, at local level.

As the chief executive of the Community Development Foundation has pointed out,

"half or more of the voluntary sector consists of local groups and organisations which are not members of national organisations"-- although it is likely that the big national organisations will be the major beneficiaries of the proceeds of a national lottery. He went on :

Column 782

"Indigenous local voluntary groups are not the tail-end of the voluntary sector, but on the contrary are its roots and in aggregate its largest part. In any scheme to distribute benefits of the national lottery to charities, these local organisations are liable to be overlooked unless definite measures are devised to take them into account."

In other words, mechanisms must be built into the administration of a national lottery, in terms of both collection and distribution of income.

I have numerous objections in principle to the Bill, as well as numerous practical objections. The hon. Member for Crosby (Sir M. Thornton) mentioned the call of the distant drum. Let me quote Fitzgerald's translation of the Rubaiyat more fully :

"Ah, take the Cash, and let the Credit go,

Nor heed the rumble of a distant Drum!"

The message of the drums is unemployment in the pools industry, damage to local charities and voluntary organisations and damage to the very people who need those organisations--the very people who would contribute to a national lottery. That is inequitable, in principle.

The reasoned amendment goes some way towards meeting those objections and I shall support it. However, investigations are necessary in regard to other aspects of the Bill before it can safely be introduced. For that reason, I shall oppose its Second Reading. 8.5 pm

Mr. James Paice (Cambridgeshire, South-East) : Earlier, there was much talk of the lottery being a tax. I wish that all taxes were as voluntary as participation in the lottery will be.

I welcome the principle behind the Bill. I am rather sad that the debate has been marred by so much discussion about jobs in the pools industry. Surely hon. Members should have lifted their eyes to the much greater opportunity that it will provide for the public good in so many important areas. I do not wish to mention all the good causes that will benefit : they are all worthy and I know that the task of deciding which should benefit, and how the money shall be spent, will be invidious. The fundamental issue at stake is this : will the lottery attract new money, or will it divert money from existing opportunities, mainly in the gambling and betting area?

My own view--and, I suspect, that of many others--is that the lottery will do a bit of each. I think that the majority will be new money and that many of the concerns expressed will prove groundless ; I also think that, inevitably, there will be a certain degree of diversion.

I want to make two points. The first concerns the question of diversion. The House will be aware of my particular interest in the racing industry, for constituency reasons and because I am chairman of the all-party committee. The lottery's impact on the racing industry concerns me greatly. The settlement in February last year of the horse racing levy--which came at the same time as the reduction in the general betting duty, which targeted the levy to raise £48 million--was widely welcomed : it constituted a major gesture by the Government to help the industry, in response to the previous year's report by the Select Committee on Home Affairs. It is generally recognised, however, that that is the bare minimum that the industry needs to survive. The horse racing levy simply returns to the industry money taken from it by the exploitation of its product : it is part of the major income that allows the industry to continue.

Column 783

In the past two years, there has been a fall in general betting turnover, which means a fall in Government taxation and also in horse race betting levy. In 1991-92, general betting turnover fell in cash terms--let alone real terms--for the first time in 10 years. The Irish experience has been prayed in aid several times today. Before the introduction of a lottery, there was considerable evidence of positive growth in betting turnover--over and above inflation--every year. Since the introduction of the lottery, that trend has been substantially reduced. Any reduction, therefore, in betting turnover will, because the horse race betting levy is decided on a percentage system, have a knock-on effect on the industry. To put that statement into context, horse racing in this country employs about 100,000 people.

Nobody knows what will happen. I hope and believe that the concerns that have been expressed will prove to be completely misplaced. Until it is in place, nobody knows what the impact of the lottery will be. I do not therefore ask the Government to make sure that the racing industry receives a good share of the hand-out from the lottery. All that I ask is that the Government should reassure the House, and through the House the industry, that if there is obvious evidence that the betting levy is falling as a result of the introduction of the lottery they will look at ways of increasing the money that is returned to the racing industry. Without it, the industry will suffer severely.

The money returned to racing could be increased simply by increasing the percentage of the levy, perhaps backed by a reduction in general betting duty. I do not believe, however, that that is really necessary. If 15 per cent. of the money that has been spent on horse race betting moves over to the lottery and if lottery turnover amounts to £4 billion, that would remove, in one go, the additional £13 million that the Government arranged to be put into the industry a year ago, thus undoing all that good. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to reassure me about what when he replies on behalf of the Government, not just on behalf of his Department.

My second point is this. I hope very much that the introduction of this national institution will herald the liberalisation of our attitude towards gambling, betting, lotteries and all the other ways of enjoying our money in a speculative way. As the Government are the progenitor of a national lottery, they cannot at the same time connive at suppressing other betting activities.

Only last week my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary announced that betting shops would be able to open in the evenings. That is a step towards liberalising our attitude to betting. For how much longer must betting shops white out their windows, as though they were as insidious as sex shops? How much longer will it be before people appreciate that it is a perfectly reasonable activity to bet on horses, just as it will be a perfectly reasonable activity to buy a lottery ticket? Many people go to the races and happily queue up at the tote or the bookmakers stand to put a bet on a horse, but they act furtively if they venture into bookmakers' shops because they are not proud of entering a shop whose activities are hidden from view.

The hon. Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara) referred to the fact that amusement arcades are proliferating. I share his concern about that development.

Column 784

I believe that they are a far greater danger to young people, who waste money in amusement arcades and often resort to criminal activities to fund their addiction to amusement arcade machines. The Government must level the famous playing field about which we have heard so much. The need to advertise must be recognised. If the national lottery is to be allowed to advertise, it is only fair that other forms of betting and gambling should be able to advertise. I hope that betting shops will soon be allowed to open on Sunday, a point that would perhaps have been better made last Friday. If such measures were introduced, betting would be able to seek in its own way to make up any loss that may result from the diversion of money to the national lottery. In my view, the Government cannot allow a national lottery without any constraints upon it to be established and at the same time leave in place constraints upon competition. I hope that lottery tickets will be sold in many places--in village shops, betting shops, post offices and, perhaps, benefit offices. The Bill will, I trust, herald a new, liberal 21st century approach to a common human activity and remove the stigma on betting and gambling. Only if they are given the opportunity to flourish will all these worthy causes benefit.

8.15 pm

Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North) : To some extent, the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice) let the cat out of the bag, for without intending to do so he exposed the weakness of the Government's approach. I shall explain what I mean later. I intend to make only three points and I shall be as brief as possible, as I know that several hon. Members still want to speak in the debate.

Mr. Frank Field : Including some non-Liverpool ones.

Mr. Howarth : Yes, including my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), who considers the presence of the River Mersey to be an insuperable barrier between him and Liverpool. I can assure him that the ferries are still running.

In support of his case my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara) quoted Aristotle. Perhaps I may be allowed to bring the philosophical argument more up to date by quoting what John Stuart Mill said in his essay on liberty. He made the serious point that everybody should be totally free up to the point where their freedom acts as a constraint upon somebody else's freedom. We must bear that in mind, for we are not dealing with an unregulated market in gambling. Once we accept that central point--this is where, to some extent, I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East--the Government and, indirectly, Parliament are setting limits on the activities of any private or public organisation that is involved in gambling. That is most certainly the case here. Reference has been made to the studies that have been undertaken, although it appears that we are not to be allowed to know the outcome of the Government's own study. My hon. Friends have referred to the Coopers and Lybrand study. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) referred to the Jubilee Policy Centre report. There has also been a Gulbenkian report. They have all come to the conclusion that there is a fixed amount of money in the economy that can be used for gambling in

Column 785

one form or another and that the introduction of new options does not lead to the creation of new money for gambling. All that happens is that money is taken away from existing sources of money for gambling. Many of us, particularly those on Merseyside, fear that money will be diverted from the football pools industry and that that will have an impact on jobs. If, however, the national lottery creates new money for gambling, several hon. Members have said today that that money will come from the poorest members of the community. It is important to subsidise the arts, the so-called culture-- ballet, opera, theatre, in particular the National theatre and the Royal Shakespeare Company--but it should be subsidised by central Government taxation of one kind or another. What is objectionable to me is that my constituents, who are among the poorest people in the country, should, by participating in the national lottery, be called upon to support ballet, theatre and opera. Those things should be supported, but not by that means, yet that will clearly be the implication of a national lottery.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key) rose--

Mr. Howarth : I am trying to take only 10 minutes. The Minister will probably have half an hour.

Mr. Key : No, 20 minutes.

Mr. Howarth : That is longer than any of my hon. Friends have had. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mrs. Kennedy) clearly showed the possible effects of a lottery.

The second argument that I wish to consider is whether the football pools are games of skill or games of chance. The Secretary of State mentioned the 1963 legislation and said that if the pools are not games of skill the industry has been breaking the law for years. The pools can be a game of skill or a game of chance, and I shall give an example. Three members of my family do the pools. I am one of them, and I freely admit that for me it is a game of chance. I do a standing forecast with Littlewoods, and my predictions are based on the ages and dates of birth of my children, the number of our house and various other significant factors in my life. The two other members of my family take much time and care to predict the outcome of the following Saturday's games. Invariably they get it wrong, otherwise they would be far richer than they are today, but for them half the enjoyment of filling in a pools coupon is seeing how close their predictions are and, hopefully, winning some money. If Ministers accept that gambling is a regulated activity, and it certainly is, they must ensure a level playing field for the new part of the industry that they are trying to create. An interview with the Secretary of State appeared in the News of the World yesterday. He said that

"the pools and the National Lottery are quite different." Are not the similarities between them so great that his argument falls ? Several hon. Friends have said that the national lottery and the pools offer long odds and, therefore, the chance of winning large prizes. That is one similarity.

Secondly, both are regarded as soft gambling : there is no opportunity for large roll-over jackpot prizes. Indeed, it is argued that they attract people who are not likely to get into harder forms of gambling as a result.

Column 786

The third argument is that both are designed to benefit good causes. The Secretary of State has suggested that the lottery will pay out more than 50 per cent. With a prize fund of £14 million and an annual turnover of £1.5 billion, the figure comes to only 48.5 per cent. The lottery will pay a far lower percentage to good causes and tax than the pools.

The chance ratio for the pools is eight from 58, whereas for the lottery it will be six from 49. There are a number of similarities between the two that make the case for treating them equally unanswerable.

I urge hon. Members to vote in favour of Labour's reasoned amendment, but, more important, the Secretary of State and the Government have failed to make the case for a national lottery, as proposed in the Bill, and I therefore urge my hon. Friends and Conservative Members who agree with us to join us in voting against giving the Bill a Second Reading.

8.25 pm

Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North) : It would be churlish of Conservative Members, especially those who represent constituencies south of Liverpool, not to recognise the depth of feeling that has been expressed by so many Members on both sides of the House who represent Merseyside. I say to them and to my hon. Friend the Minister that I have some sympathy with their argument. I am concerned, as they are, about the advertising bias that the national lottery would inevitably have, which would affect the bingo industry, about which I shall say a little in a moment.

I am perhaps more concerned that the money that goes to football via the Exchequer will decrease if activity on the pools declines, as inevitably it will. Tremendous sums have been put back into football, not only by the generosity of the pools industry, which to a certain extent one must acknowledge, but by the football grounds improvement trust, by the Football Trust and by the Government putting taxpayers' money into ground improvements to meet the requirements of the Taylor report. Few league and non-league clubs have not benefited in some way from the Football Trust.

The Government must therefore answer the question that I tried to put to the Secretary of State earlier : if taxation receipts decrease, as the Coopers and Lybrand report forecasts, will the Government make good what could be a serious deficit in the moneys that go into our national game? Football clubs are always short of money, but none the less need money to improve their stadiums and bring them up to the standards outlined in the Taylor report and health and safety regulations. Merseyside Members can be assured that Conservative Members have great sympathy with their argument, even if we do not join them in the Lobby tonight. I hope that the Government will seriously consider the competitive nature of advertising and take seriously the Select Committee's recommendation that the headquarters of the lottery organisation should go to Liverpool, or certainly the Merseyside area.

Clause 26 is an admirable measure, the purpose of which is to sell as many lottery tickets as possible. All hon. Members want it to be a success because of the money that will go to the recipient organisations, yet the Government have restricted the point of sale almost to a ludicrous extent.

Column 787

I suggest that there are two ways of making some small amendment. The first is that the 80,000 pools collectors who knock on doors every week--it is remarkable that they still do--are an obvious point of sale for national lottery tickets in conjunction with pools coupons. The Secretary of State said that there is no reason why the two should not go side by side because, as he put it, they are adjoining playing fields. If that is the case, it means that there are not only the pools organisations with their vast experience of such matters but about 80,000 people knocking on doors across the country. We understand that about one third of the population do the football pools, so that provides a great opportunity to increase ticket sales. Sales could also be increased through the use of post offices and other retail outlets.

The Government might also consider selling tickets in bingo halls. About 3 million people play bingo every week and, of that number, about 84 per cent. are women. They tend to be elderly women looking for some social atmosphere. They enjoy their game and play for modest sums. In such respectable organisations, all the prize money goes back to those who are playing and duty is paid to the Exchequer. The organisations suffer enormously because of advertising--how ridiculous that a £50,000 national bingo prize cannot be advertised in the bingo hall where one goes to play but only in the national papers. In any event, bingo halls are another possible outlet for tickets, and the Minister has the opportunity--

Mrs. Wise : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Carlisle : No. I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me. The Minister has the opportunity to widen the scope for selling tickets to make the lottery the success that we all want it to be. I hope that the lottery will be so successful that it will replace the taxpayers' money which is now being used for sport, arts and heritage. The Minister has been careful to say that money must be ring-fenced--all hon. Members agree with that-- but would it not be splendid if the amount of money raised could replace the money currently being paid by taxpayers for sport and the arts? Before members of the Opposition jump up, I add that that in turn could release money for health, education and housing.

I wonder whether my right hon. and hon. Friends have been a little modest in their plans. A lottery could revolutionise sport, arts and national heritage. There is a great chance of replacing taxpayers' money with money from the national lottery. Therefore, the lottery scheme must receive enormous support from not only the House but outside. It must have the widest possible sales and advertisement and, if it is to be a success, the greatest support from those within the gambling industry, including my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice), the football pools, bingo halls and other organisations.

If the scheme is a great success, my right hon. and hon. Friends will have done not only this Government but succeeding Governments a great favour by removing the burden from taxpayers and removing the political arguments which inevitably accompany the political funding of sport.

Column 788

Clearly, sport is my main interest and I am sorry that time prevents me from saying much about it. All sports welcome the national lottery in all forms. I hope that it will be of enormous benefit throughout the world of sport, not merely among the highest flyers and for the building of new stadia but for the young sportsmen and women who lack opportunities in inner-city areas, right down to those in villages and towns. That is where we want the money to go and where we shall see the immediate benefit of the vast sums which, it is promised, the national lottery will give us.

On that basis, I give the Bill my fullest support and wish it every success in its passage through the House.

8.33 pm

Next Section

Home Page