House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Jan 1993

Mr. Peter Mandelson (Hartlepool) : Many speeches have been made since my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) said, perhaps rather optimistically, at the beginning of the debate that Labour was not divided on the principle of the Bill. I have felt increasingly isolated-- physically, not politically--as I sat waiting to make my speech. I listened to most of my hon. Friends--

Mr. Frank Field : From Liverpool.

Mr. Mandelson : --from Liverpool and elsewhere making it clear that they would like the whole idea to disappear out of sight. They have made a strong case and expressed great concern to which I think all hon. Members must be extremely sympathetic, not least the Ministers who are responsible for introducing the Bill.

The strength of my hon. Friends' case stems from the huge employment implications and potential costs, not only in Merseyside but in Glasgow and Cardiff, if the lottery were to be introduced and were to operate in such a way as to drive out the pools industry and lead to unemployment. We have heard some immensely powerful speeches--chiefly from hon. Members representing Merseyside constituencies--by which it would be almost impossible for the Government to fail to be swayed.

Nevertheless, it would be a mistake if we were to oppose the Bill. I offer at least a bridge, if not a level playing field, between myself and the many like me who favour the concept of a national lottery and other right hon. and hon. Friends. Perhaps I can provide some glue or a gloss--more appropriately--so that we can emerge rather more united from the debate.

It would be a colossal mistake for the Labour party to repeat the historical error that it made in opposing the introduction of premium bonds. It would be a mistake for three reasons. It would be very unwise for us to create the impression of being uninterested in and going against the tide of public opinion as though we were against new ideas merely because they were new and as though we were, in an old-wordly way, against innovation. I do not want to introduce a modernising argument or tendency to the debate, but we should remember that opposition to the lottery cannot possibly be regarded as the test of socialist purity. If that were the case, I do not know where it would leave all the constituency Labour parties which run raffles and bingo to raise funds. We should remind ourselves that it was not so long ago that my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said from the Front Bench that the Labour party would consider introducing a national lottery in the future.

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Secondly, it would be unfortunate and highly undesirable for the Labour party to appear to be under the sway of a vested interest--we can safely leave vested interests to the Tory party, which is much more practised and proficient at being swayed than the Labour party. We must remind ourselves that the pools industry, from which we have heard a great deal in recent weeks, has not been arguing against the principle of a lottery--it has been arguing for fair competition, not no competition.

Thirdly, we must avoid adopting what I might call a rather sniffy, moralistic and intolerant attitude to those who want to have a flutter. I understand the argument about working people's income being used to finance middle-class interest in the arts and culture, but we need to guard against a trace of snobbery entering our remarks on that subject.

As it happens, I was brought up rather strictly by my parents never to gamble. I have never done so, either in the soft way, as it is called, or in the hard way. However, I was also taught by my parents to respect what others did for their fun and to get their kicks as long as it did not interfere with the fun of others and as long as it was not anti-social. A degree of tolerance and respect for how other people choose to enjoy themselves and how they choose to spend their money should be a feature of our attitude on this subject. The lottery is in that category.

The lottery will not have the impact on the quality of life which Ministers have advertised for it. It is as if the millennium arrived on the mere publication of the Bill. None the less, Ministers have exaggerated to make a point and it cannot be denied that in the absence of very much else about which people can shout under this Government, the national lottery will bring some individual enjoyment to many people. It will bring many benefits to organisations big and small for which they will have reasons to thank the Government for the creation of the national lottery.

The unanswered question for me is not whether we should be in favour of the national lottery ; that question has been answered. The question for me is whether the national lottery should go ahead in the form proposed by the Government.

I have sat here throughout the debate and have heard the questions put to the Secretary of State. The attitude that he and his hon. Friend the Minister have displayed to the concerns expressed about constituency matters has been somewhat callous. They seem to be somewhat indifferent to the arguments made. They have been rather irresponsible in the way in which they have replied to those points, both in Question Time this afternoon and in the debate this evening. Having recognised in the past the understandable concerns of the pools industry and having undertaken to consult extensively and to conduct research, the Government have indisputably hidden the findings of that research. They have ignored the concerns, which they previously described as understandable, of the pools industry and of hon. Members who represent constituents who are employed in that industry and they have simply buried the consultations--

Mr. Key indicated dissent.

Mr. Mandelson : The Minister shakes his head. He will have an opportunity to reply to the debate and we shall all be interested in what he says. The impression created by

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Ministers so far has been that they have been indifferent to the concerns expressed. It is appropriate and timely for Ministers to say more and to do more to acknowledge and to accommodate the legitimate concerns.

The pools industry and the national lottery occupy the same position in the marketplace. They both offer a remote chance of winning a large prize for a small stake. It is not reasonable for the lottery, as the nationalised player in the market, to be specially helped and abetted, as the Government propose. The Government must again consider creating a fair competitive framework in relation to advertising, marketing and distribution. I should have thought that the Government, committed as they are to a free market ideology, would not need a lecture on the subject of markets from a socialist like me. However, I am happy to deliver that lecture, of which I hope the Government will be mindful.

Money goes from the pools industry to football. I represent Hartlepool, whose football club tragically--due to unforeseen circumstances and a little local difficulty not of its making--was forced to appear in the High Court last week. Most regrettably, the club faces the indignity of being wound up. I look for encouragement, if not a generous contribution, for my football club when the Minister replies to the debate. He will not be surprised that I express considerable concern about the possibility of that money being jeopardised if the lottery succeeds at the expense of the pools.

Some £45 million annually goes to the football industry from the pools. That is a substantial sum. The best estimate made is that less than one tenth of the money presently going into football from the pools would be available if a national lottery were set up. That is serious, not only in view of the financial fragility of clubs such as mine, but for the sake of all the physical improvements, the safety measures and the developments that the Football Trust notably finances.

In setting up the lottery, if they are successful tonight, the Government are creating new opportunities. The House has a duty to protect what exists and is already enjoyed. The House must protect the money on which sport presently depends. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that in creating this opportunity, negative consequences do not flow.

I hope that hon. Members will support the amendment tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends, although I believe that it would be wrong for us subsequently to vote against Second Reading. However, I point out that votes given on Second Reading can easily be taken away on Third Reading if the necessary changes are not made in Committee. 8.46 pm

Mr. Andrew Hargreaves (Birmingham, Hall Green) : I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) for many of his remarks with which Conservative Members largely concur. We were all slightly amazed by the rather sniffy attitude adopted by one or two Opposition Members towards people taking a flutter especially, as the hon. Gentleman said, when it goes on in most political parties throughout the country.

It is even stranger for Conservative Members to hear Labour Members expounding the virtues of cosseting a private sector company. The hon. Member for Hartlepool rightly said that a nationalised institution, or at least the

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nationalised part of an industry, should not be cosseted. I look forward to remarks in a similar vein when we come to talk about the coal industry or any of the other remaining nationalised industries which face competition from private sector companies.

It seems extraordinary to Conservative Members that in this debate on a national lottery quite so much attention has been devoted to the pools by Opposition Members. As I mentioned earlier, the pools companies are private sector companies. Although, under certain pressure from the Government, they remit money back into football, that money is not widely distributed. If I am fortunate enough to be a member of the Committee and if measures to level the playing field are agreed, I shall look for proposals to ensure that the pools industry contributes in a more even-handed way to sport generally and perhaps to the arts. The whole purpose of the national lottery is that it will endow the arts, sport and the new millennium fund. The whole merit of the national lottery is that it will raise money for good causes. As such, I am sure that most hon. Members support it. It is regrettable that the Bill seems to create a conflict in terms of competition with the pools. However, there is a case for arguing that the broader interest should prevail, although not necessarily to the total detriment of our other interests. The broader interest is clearly that the national lottery will provide additional money for a host of excellent causes for which money would otherwise be in very short supply. It is now many years since public subscription for good causes was a fashionable or successful way of raising money.

I worked in the arts for some time as an auctioneer. Alas, it is extremely difficult to find patrons willing to endow museums or even to purchase important works of art for the nation. Therefore, I very much hope that the various funds to which the lottery will contribute will be able to make up that shortfall.

I was slightly alarmed when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State indicated that the element that might be paid to Scotland might be out of proportion to the numbers there. As a good Birmingham Member, I will oppose that. I naturally feel that the money should be spent where the numbers are and in the same proportion.

I concur with my colleagues on the Conservative Benches and with the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) that we must have a secure way of ensuring that the tax take is not too high. The hon. Member for Cynon Valley mentioned a figure of 15 per cent. I believe that must be the absolute maximum. I would support my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford- on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), who made an excellent contribution to the debate, who suggested that it might be in the Treasury's longer-term interest to have a 0 per cent. or perhaps at most a 5 per cent. take.

It would be totally ludicrous for us to support the concept of an institution to raise money for good events and causes if most of that money was simply recouped in general taxation. That is not the purpose of the Bill. Hon. Members on both sides of the House must co-ordinate to ensure that the Treasury does not acquire creepingly that reasonable percentage that would otherwise go to those good causes.

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We must also be very careful that we do not succumb to special pleading. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set up structures for the distribution of the funds that may become available. However, I would like to examine one or two of them again--particularly on the sporting side--in Committee to decide whether they are the best means of distributing the money that is raised in the fairest and most equitable fashion. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will know of my interest in removing drugs from sport. I would obviously like to ensure that the bodies which distribute the money can get that money where it needs to go, without hindrance.

We might try to find common ground on both sides of the House to assist smaller charities--and, indeed, the pools industry--in relation to which games the national lottery will encompass. Reference has been made to scratch cards and to whether the pools involve skill or total chance. Of course, the Skilball games are separate from that and there are also computer lotto number games.

I will seek to be persuaded in Committee that the national lottery needs quite such a wide variety of games. It may be more successful if it is identified with two specific types of game. I hope that we can examine that element more carefully in Committee.

As many of my colleagues still wish to speak in the debate, I will be brief. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends who are responsible for the Bill's progress in Committee will not offer themselves too much as hostages to fortune in trying to appease the pools industry. Those of us who have striven on behalf of the arts and on behalf of sport generally also have our corner to fight. The level playing field must be considered to be level only if the causes to which it contributes are also level, and in degree. However, I will support the Bill on Second Reading.

8.54 pm

Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) : I shall be brief, as I have only one point to make. Reference has been made tonight to the motion introduced by Ken Hargreaves two or possibly three Parliaments ago. I put my name to that motion and I voted for it. Indeed, I believe that I was the only Labour Member at the time to support the motion for a national lottery. I want to use my contribution tonight to explain why I will vote for the reasoned amendment and against the Bill's Second Reading.

We are talking about a measure that will decimate the pools industry and the jobs of those who work in it. That is one of the certainties about the Bill. The Secretary of State produced some figures and my colleagues presented other figures. Against that loss of jobs, we must realise that some of our fellow citizens are struggling to survive in a country that is now suffering its worst depression since the 1930s. The depression is on that scale. We have spent this afternoon and this evening debating a Bill that will put many people out of work, including many in my constituency and in neighbouring constituencies, on the chance that other jobs and opportunities will be created and, as the former Home Secretary said, because the Bill will cheer us up. I can assure the Secretary of State for National Heritage that the Bill will not cheer my constituents up.

When the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) intervened in the introductory speeches, he was right to question whether we are talking about full-time or part-time jobs. Many of the jobs that we are talking about

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on Merseyside are part-time jobs. However, they carry a wage packet which is sufficient to take those families above the benefit level. Therefore, those wages act as full-time wages. The Bill will destroy many of those jobs. I do not believe that we have the right to destroy them without creating other opportunities.

The Secretary of State is a cultured, fair and witty man. When, in his introductory comments, he reached the point about level playing fields, a brief hint of humour crossed his face as he knew that that was the dodgiest part of his contribution. He knew that it was crucial to argue that there were fundamental differences between the pools and what was to be offered. He knew that, if he put the national lottery as proposed and the pools on an equal playing field, one or other would survive, but possibly not his treasured national lottery.

The Secretary of State knows that his arguments about skill are untrue. If it means bringing the pools industry under another Act, it should be regulated by that Act. The right hon. Gentleman knows that, in the game that is about to commence, it is crucial that the pools have an equal chance with the national lottery to promote and advertise their wares. He knows also that, if he denies them that opportunity, as assuredly as anyone could be, he will be destroying jobs in Merseyside, Birkenhead, Cardiff and Glasgow.

It is extraordinary that, when we are still at the bottom--one hopes that it is the bottom and that there is not worse to come--of the worst depression since the 1930s, we should seriously think about giving a Second Reading to a measure which will destroy jobs, many of which are in my constituency. That is why I was happy to support the idea of a national lottery ; I believed that its time was coming. However, until we deal with unemployment and give security to people who are currently in employment in the pools industry, we are talking about a vote to add to the official total of 3 million unemployed and possibly the true total of 4 million.

For that reason, and for that reason alone, I shall oppose the measure tonight. It is, as hon. Members have argued, a sectional interest. For too long we have tolerated the comfy cartel of those who are in employment which has operated against many of my constituents who are unemployed, and I am not joining it tonight. 8.59 pm

Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate) : I am grateful to be called at this late stage, Madam Deputy Speaker.

History has a habit of repeating itself. I dare say that our predecessors are looking down at us, or even up at us, and recalling that, in 1569, the first lottery in this country was held to raise funds to repair the Cinque ports. The prizes were plate, tapestry and money. Lotteries over the following hundreds of years went on. We found ourselves giving not only donations to the English plantations in Virginia in 1612 but fresh water to London, and relieving the ransom demands of English slaves in Tunis--all raised from lottery funds. Westminster bridge was built in 1739 and the British museum acquired its treasures and its building in 1753 from the sale of lottery tickets.

We have come full circle back to lotteries. We have heard many Littlewoods speeches tonight and we have heard much about effects on the pools industry. I do not feel that the pools industry will be decimated, but it will have to take a bit of a knock. However--this point has not

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been stressed enough--we have a terrific opportunity for more employment in the printing industry, through the distribution of lottery tickets and through the money that will be given to charities, sport and heritage causes. I am convinced that more jobs will be generated than will be lost.

Certain aspects of the Bill demand to be voiced. One is that the operator who will be appointed to promote and administer the lottery should be a British company. Clearly no one in this country has experience of running a national lottery, and I should be very surprised if a British company was doing so overseas ; I know of none. Nevertheless, why do not the pools companies act positively, try to form a consortium and have something to do with the operation of the lottery ?

It is important to consider how tickets are to be sold. I want the lottery to be blatantly biased in favour of small businesses and sub-post offices which should be able to sell tickets. At railway stations, terminals and so on, why not promote kiosks and allow people with disabilities to play a part in selling tickets? I should very much like to see in the British lottery operation an accent on the employment of disabled and disadvantaged people in the administration of the lottery and the sale of tickets. I do not want tickets to be sold through machines. The people element is most important.

It is important that we see the draw on television and that it is publicised. After all, the pools get the rundown on a number of draws on Saturdays. The draw must use television to its best advantage. The value of prizes is of immense importance. The size of prizes will have a crucial bearing on the success of the lottery.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) cleverly referred to tax. It is very important that the Government do not take out tax. If we give money to arts enterprises, sport, charities and the millennium fund, it is important that the Government do not get their hands on the money and deprive people of the funds that we want them to have. The lottery will create a huge cash flow. The operator must take full account of the fact that he can draw interest on the cash flow as it enters the system and before it is parcelled out to the different authorities. It is important that we understand where the lottery proceeds will go. There must be no confusion that the Arts Council has its own budget but which is supplemented by lottery funds. The public must be clear on where the national lottery funds are spent. As has been said in the debate, it is important that funding of our Arts Council, the Sports Council and so on do not suffer because of the money which will come to them from lotteries.

As I have said, there are a number of matters which must be examined, including the reference to charities. There are hundreds of thousands of charities in the United Kingdom. It is difficult to determine which charities should receive the funds. That matter must be addressed with great thoroughness to observe the terms of reference.

I shall end by referring to the millennium fund. We must have a spectacular development. France has built the great La De fense, which is the most incredible building and one of the great sites in Europe. In the United Kingdom, what do we have? We have absolutely nothing. We do not even have a museum of modern art. Provincial cities in Germany have the most spectacular museums of modern contemporary art. We do not have that even in London. It is a national disgrace. I hope that the funds will be specifically earmarked in that direction.

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For goodness sake, if we do nothing else with the millennium fund, let us do something which is architecturally great and which will put the City of London and the provinces firmly on the international map.

9.3 pm

Mrs. Audrey Wise (Preston) : I shall be brief. I have sat through this debate and I have been waiting for an answer to a specific question : where will the money come from? I have heard speculation about how much it will be--anything from £1.5 billion to £4 billion--and I have heard discussion about how the money should be utilised. I have not heard any hon. Member tell me where it will come from.

None of the proponents of the measure will say where the money will come from. It is an important matter because the idea that new money will be spent in addition to the football pools, the charitable giving and so on is extraordinary. Who is sitting around with all that money in his sock or under the mattress in this depression? It is certainly not my constituents who are having difficulty in paying their rent or mortgages or buying their clothes. If they start spending on the national lottery, what will they not spend on, for which they would otherwise have used the money? That is an important question.

I have been told, "Don't worry about the fact that members of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers will lose their jobs at Merseyside, Glasgow and Cardiff because other jobs will be created." The right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) said that about 80,000 jobs might result from the new money which is apparently being created specifically for the national lottery. Members of my union will not only lose their jobs at Merseyside, but families will suffer because money will be diverted. The people who make the goods and services on which they presently spend the £1.5 billion to £4 billion will also suffer. I do not know who it will be. I do not know whether there will be worse unemployment in the house construction industry or whether the members of my union who work in retailing and who are already in a deep recession will find an even bigger recession. I suspect that will happen.

People say that the Bill is a great idea. The hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) told us that a huge cash flow would be generated by the lottery. Where is that cash now and on what is it being spent? Who is able to contribute the largesse for this national lottery? That is the question that I want answered.

I have a subsidiary question. We have heard loads of lyrical statements about swimming pools, sports stadiums and contributions to the arts. Why are they good if they come from a national lottery and bad if they come from local authorities? Without an answer to those two questions I shall not only vote for the amendment but also vote against the Second Reading.

9.10 pm

Mr. Tim Rathbone (Lewes) : I hope that the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) will forgive me if I do not follow up her two pertinent questions. I should like to raise half a dozen swift points at this late hour. I should like to pick up the points made by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). We need to give consideration to

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the people who have been working in the pools as the House takes a decision that has a direct bearing on their employment. It is not often that we take such decisions, but this is one of them. The Minister should give us some reassurance in his reply that help will be given to those people. I hope that that reassurance will immediately bring the hon. Member for Birkenhead and others back on to the right side of the voting pattern this evening.

With that rider, I thoroughly welcome the Bill, although I wish to make one or two stipulations. May I follow the two valleys--my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) and the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd)--in saying, "Keep the Treasury's hand out of the till." The maximum amount of money should go to good works, the arts, sport, heritage and so on. I hope that we shall aim to direct a minimum of a quarter of the sums raised to such works, but that we shall have it in our mind to push the amount up to a third. That should be the aim of the operators of the national lottery, bearing in mind administrative costs, too.

The lottery will need to be imaginatively and professionally run and imaginatively marketed. The organisers should use every modern technique. We should try to run the lottery with greater efficiency than any other lottery in the world. That will mean that more funds will be available for the good works for which the lottery was originally devised. It must be simple and readily available and must operate in a way which allows the maximum number of people to participate.

The use of roll-ups should be carefully studied in Committee. They should not be ruled out now, as people tend to do. They can be a successful influence in the operation of lotteries.

The funds raised by the national lottery could be put to myriad uses. One use has not been mentioned so far. Perhaps only through the lottery shall we be able swiftly to effect better access for disabled people to the span of arts and heritage buildings to which they so often cannot gain entrance. In some instances, it requires a considerable sum of money to provide access. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will bear that in mind. I have five warnings to give. One has already been given by many others. The lottery money must be additional to other money. It must be additional to not only Government funding in general but Government funding in specific cases. That is important. It must also be additional to current charitable and voluntary funding. I hope that it will be additional to the excellent funding provided by the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, which in turn comes from the pools. It is much appreciated. I am sure that there is no constituency which has not benefited from such funding. They are small amounts of money, but they make a huge difference locally. It must be additional to contributions from business sponsorship of the arts and the matching Government funds that go with that--it must not be instead of any of these.

Secondly, large and small requirements must be considered--not merely the marvellous idea for a Welsh national opera house, but help for local museums, art and theatre groups, community arts and so forth. That is where the root of British culture is to be found--great oak trees grow from very small acorns.

Thirdly, small charities and voluntary organisations must be given the same leeway as the national lottery and

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must be allowed to promote themselves in new ways and sell themselves in new locations, to enable them to continue their good work on the ground.

Fourthly, I question the choice of the National Heritage Memorial Fund as the principal acting in the purchase of new buildings. It has done the most marvellous job of funding and of saving our heritage and can be the instrument to do that, but it will skew its operations if it has to become the principal saviour of our heritage. Finally, with one rider, it is crucial to allow any lotteries of fund-raising activities similar to the national lottery the same freedoms--the same promotional, advertising and sales activities. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) said, we have an opportunity to direct distribution of lottery tickets through small local businesses, which need every bit of support in these days of large supermarkets and superstores.

With those riders, I am pleased to support my right hon. and learned Friends in the Lobby this evening.

9.16 pm

Mr. Tom Pendry (Stalybridge and Hyde) : I hope that the House will forgive me if I do not give way, as the Minister and I have decided to cut down our speeches to allow as many hon. Members as possible to take part.

The House is at its best when debating a subject that contains a cocktail of interests that span conventional party lines and we have had such a debate this evening. We have heard passionate and heart-felt speeches from both sides of the Chamber about moral, ethical, sectional and constituency concerns. Weighty arguments have been advanced for and against the Bill.

By now, Ministers responsible for this legislation are aware that many hon. Members on both sides of the House have no intrinsic objection to the principle of a national lottery--myself included--but feel that the Bill is not the way. Equally, as the House has heard, many hon. Members cannot accept a lottery at any price.

The fear that jobs in the pools industry could be lost, affecting their constituencies, is the main concern of many other hon. Members. They were sent to this House to represent their constituents' interests. We have tabled our amendment because of our affinity with the latter group and because a record number of our work force are in the dole queues in their thousands in areas such as Liverpool, Glasgow, Cardiff and east London, where the pools companies are situated.

The pools industry has not been afforded anything like the level playing field for which it asked so that it could compete in the same market place as the national lottery and my hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle), Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mrs. Kennedy), Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing), Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth), Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara) and for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) argued that passionately and eloquently. I am sure that their constituents will be proud of the way in which they batted on their behalf.

On a lighter note, the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) has shown us a unique way to display his Garrick club tie.

On a serious note, my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) made a powerful speech. She raised important issues that were picked up by the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), the right hon.

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and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) and others, which I hope the Minister will answer. In particular, I hope that the Minister will address the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley raised as a result of acquiring--by whatever means--a Conservative research department brief. That paper stated : "Wherever possible, lottery money will be given on a partnership basis, with donations from the private sector or local authorities augmenting input from lottery funds."

I hope that the Minister will comment on that important issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies) made an important, but perhaps obvious, point when he said that some capital should be invested in sport and the arts. I refer him to the briefing of the National Campaign for the Arts, which states :

"It is always easy for politicians to justify putting up a building with a suitable commemorative plaque in prominent view. It is less politically rewarding--and usually extremely difficult--to prise out the money year on year for its operation."

We have seen too many white elephants up and down the country as a result of such exercises. I hope that the Bill will contain an assurance that, where money is given, it continues to be made available for the upkeep of the sports hall, museum or art gallery. The hon. Member for Crosby (Sir M. Thornton), who is not now in his place, said much in favour of the Opposition's stance. We shall look anxiously to see whether he joins us in the Lobby tonight. There were many other excellent speeches, but time does not allow me to refer to all of them.

It has been suggested that it is ironic--it has nothing to do with Clintonisation--that the Opposition are prepared to defend the legitimate interests of Britain's second-largest private company in the shape of Littlewoods pools, while Government Members are whipped to support what amounts to a state gambling monopoly. We take our stance in the interests of fair competition and fair play--hopefully, our argument will lend itself to many Conservative Members. The all-party Select Committee on National Heritage came to the same conclusion. It decided that the pools industry should be treated equally in relation to advertising and marketing, the ability to roll over jackpots and the other factors raised by my Liverpool colleagues.

Some hon. Members were also concerned about the voluntary sector. The National Council for Voluntary Organisations is rightly anxious about the Bill's impact on its members. We shall insist that the commitment made by the Under-Secretary of State when he spoke to the NCVO conference is upheld. He said :

"The Lottery is intended to provide an extra source of income for the charitable sector."

Charities are justifiably concerned that the Bill encourages excessive gambling and want proper safeguards to minimise that possibility. They say that studies show that low income groups spend a greater proportion of their money on lotteries than high income groups. Therefore, they want low income groups to benefit significantly from national lottery funding. They want the tax levels to equate with European tax rates. They fear that charities could lose as much as £230 million a year. Those are real fears that must be assuaged by the Government.

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) rose

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Mr. Pendry : No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has just entered the Chamber and cannot have heard me say that I would not give way.

We should agree with the Select Committee on National Heritage, which has stressed that the National Heritage Department should monitor the lottery's impact on charities. That point was stressed by the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), who made a moving and refreshing speech. In fact, it was so refreshing that I think that he has worked his way out of being appointed to the Committee that will examine the Bill--should he ever wish to sit on it.

As someone who is known for his support of the national lottery, I feel that I should make my position clear. If there is one sin greater than an hon. Member reading back one of his speeches, perhaps it is quoting himself from a self-penned article in The Times. At the risk of penance later, however, I shall refer to what I wrote in my capacity as chairman of the Back-Bench sports committee at about the time that the hon. and learned Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) proposed his national lottery. I wrote :

"While the possibility of a lottery, in its own form and context, is a measure which could do great things, it is vital that it fits in with existing aspects of funding and employment within the industries which it is designed to help Sport has suffered far too long to afford further mishaps. If we are to go down the road of a National Lottery then we had better get it right."

That was my position then and it is my position now. It is one that is consistent with the Opposition's position on the Bill. The Bill that was introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Burton was flawed and rejected by the House. We, the Opposition, say that this Bill is flawed and we shall reject it. Despite the many informed voices that have given their time and the benefit of their advice and experience to the Secretary of State, he has been unwilling to be flexible. That does not augur well, does it, for the consideration of the Bill in Committee, should it go that far? The right hon. Gentleman's basic mistake was not to give interested parties the sort of information that he gleaned from his commissioned report, the Goodhall, Alexander and O'Hare report. How many Members knew that GAH stood for that?

We all recognise that some commercially sensitive material might have had to have been left out, but how much of it was really sensitive? By the Secretary of State's course of action he has given the clear impression that he has shrouded himself in secrecy on the fundamental research facts that are necessary to make informed judgments about the Bill.

Mr. Kilfoyle : My hon. Friend has made a fundamental point because all the research that has been undertaken by the Government involves the GAH group. Indeed, I have a written answer from the Secretary of State stating that there will be no more research. Yet I can find no track record of GAH. Is my hon. Friend able to enlighten right hon. and hon. Members about GAH?

Mr. Pendry : My hon. Friend is perspicacious. I was about to do just what he asks.

I was about to say that I wonder whether there is another explanation why the report has been secret and remains secret. Could it be that it lacks the quality that we are entitled to expect of a Government-commissioned

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report ? I ask because on 23 November my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) asked the Secretary of State to "state the qualifications of the GAH Group to carry out the consultant's report on a national lottery ; and if he will describe the process by which it was selected from the tenders received." In reply, the Secretary of State said :

"The Group was the best qualified in terms of experience, expertise and cost."--[ Official Report, 23 November 1992 ; vol. 214, c. 493. ]

That can hardly be right. We know from another answer given by the Secretary of State on 5 November to my hon. Friend the Member for Broadgreen that tenders for the contract were asked on 24 July 1992. As GAH was formed, according to Companies House, on 8 June 1992, by my calculations it was in business for 34 working days. The Secretary of State, or the Under-Secretary of State, when he replies, must tell the House why that inexperienced firm, operating out of--wait for it--Nether Wallop in Hampshire, was even approached to undertake this important service. Experienced and with expertise ?--hardly. The Secretary of State must answer that. From now on we shall give these selective and secretive operations much more scrutiny.

Fortunately, despite the defensive restrictions placed on hon. Members, we have had a debate worthy of the subject.

I hope that the Secretary of State realises that it is consistent both to be committed to the concept of a national lottery and to retain sound and deeply held objections to some parts of the specific proposals in the Bill. That is why the Government should think again before attempting to pursue the Bill in its present form. It is why we are asking the House to send away the Secretary of State to think again and not to come back until such time as he has conducted a proper, open and informed national debate.

The House may decide not to take that route. If so, I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will do our level best in Committee to improve the Bill, I hope with the assistance of Conservative Members. This is not a party issue ; it transcends party lines. Let the right hon. Gentleman make no mistake--there are many Labour Members who recognise the benefit that could flow to sport, the arts and heritage from a well-structured and well-run national lottery. Unfortunately, that is not on offer tonight.

It is fair to say that over the years the football pools industry has done a great deal to prop up the Treasury with millions and millions of pounds. It is a disgrace that Ministers have not given it the consideration that it deserves in the debate and in the Bill. The underfunding of sport and the arts has been little short of a national disgrace for many years. Hon. Members have rightly highlighted the problems for those trying to promote sporting and artistic activity.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton)--a man who knows his football--made an interesting and hard-hitting speech. He clearly made the point that, following the Taylor report, the Government introduced legislation that makes it difficult for football clubs to survive. They have also suffered swingeing increases in police costs. The pools industry, which puts some £100 million a year into sport, is their lifeline. It is the

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