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industry that is trying to help the footballers and their clubs. The Government should say what they would do for football. The Bill contains many deep-seated flaws with which the Minister must deal when he replies. A central flaw is the lack of accountability. We welcome the principle enshrined in schedule 6 for a balanced membership on the proposed millennium fund, including a nominee from the Leader of the Opposition. Why not extend that principle to the rest of the Bill and to the national lottery itself? It appears that the Government believe that accountability is an expensive luxury to be granted for only a limited part of the millennium celebrations before being buried. That is not good enough. If the national lottery is to be a lottery of the nation, it must be seen to represent the nation in its operation. Too much power rests with the Secretary of State, as has been recognised by many organisations--not least the Lottery Promotion company, which has done more than anyone to put the national lottery on the agenda. There are many other flaws in the Bill, but time does not permit me to go into them in detail. I will give a list of them to the Minister, who can then reply. Supporters and sceptics alike should unite because we are not prepared to have a national lottery that fails to deal with the needs and concerns of the whole nation and that is flawed and inconsistent. Unfortunately, that is precisely the prospect that faces us. I urge the House to send the Bill packing and to vote for our amendment.

9.33 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key) : Tonight's debate has been remarkable and specialbecause so many right hon. and hon. Members have contributed. Including Members of both Front Benches, 31 speakers have caught your eye, Madam Speaker, or that of the Deputy Speaker. That itself is something of a record. The quality of debate has been high. The debate has been measured, temperate and well-informed--and of how many debates in this Chamber can we say that? That bodes well for the Committee stage that I trust that the House will approve. The national lottery was a manifesto commitment, and nine months of national debate have drawn to a natural conclusion. We met the charities and the pools organisations, and held discussions with the bodies who are to distribute the moneys as to how they are to do that, how best to meet our objectives, and so on. After nine months, that debate is reaching a predictable and well-measured conclusion. I hope that my answers will help to allay the fears that have not unreasonably been expressed during the debate. However, I have been asked well over 100 questions and I have a little over 20 minutes in which to answer them. I hope that the House will allow me to attempt to answer many of them and that right hon. and hon. Members will not intervene too often. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) pointed out that he would rather get on with his arguments--and I would like to answer the questions.

Mr. Wareing rose --

Mr. Key : Of course I do not mind giving way to the hon. Gentleman. I am sorry that I was not in the Chamber for his speech, but I received a report of it.

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Mr. Wareing : The Minister said that the issue had been debated for nine months, but it was only on 9 December that the Secretary of State for National Heritage held discussions with members of the Pools Promoters Association. He subsequently spoke of a "continuing constructive discussion". The Minister spoke of discussions reaching "a natural conclusion." Can he give an assurance that there will be further discussions with the Pools Promoters Association and with the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers before the Bill is finalised in Committee?

Mr. Key : USDAW has not sought a meeting with me, but I have heard its representations very clearly--not least from the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise), who sought for many months to inform Ministers of her views and those of USDAW. The date given by the hon. Gentleman was accurate but there were many hours of informal discussion before that particular summit, if I may say so describe it, in December. As for my own position, I have spoken to the pools promoters for many months about a variety of matters--not least promoting Merseyside to the United States last March with the leader of the city council and the chairman of Littlewoods pools. We visited Washington and New York and that was most successful. I am not sure whether I am allowed to quote myself from a newspaper, but I will allude to last Friday's Liverpool Daily Post. I am surprised that no hon. Members representing Liverpool constituencies made any reference to that. That clearly did not suit their purpose. I made it clear that we would listen carefully to the case that Merseyside might want to put to us on the location of the lottery's headquarters or of the games operators. That invitation was warmly received by Harry Rimmer of Liverpool city council. I am sure that we will hear more about that. Tonight's debate engendered great interest inside and outside the House. I hope that the House will reject the Opposition amendment and choose to focus on the real issue. Giving the Bill a Second Reading will give the country what it obviously wants--an opportunity to participate in a national lottery that will bring real benefits to charities, the arts, sport, and the heritage in this country. We cannot stop our citizens from spending their money on foreign lotteries ; how much better it would be if they spent their money on our own national lottery, not only to gain prizes for themselves but to benefit the good causes that we have identified in the Bill.

Mr. Colvin : My hon. Friend's mention of good causes prompts me to intervene on behalf of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence). He was about to deal with this in his speech, but the 10 -minute rule came into operation. The point is also relevant to a point that I was going to make about charities during the speech of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry). Will my hon. Friend confirm there will be nothing to stop a charitable foundation from bidding to run the lottery? The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde suggested that charities might be out of pocket by some £230 million ; that will be approximately the Treasury take, in tax, from the profits made by a company running the lottery. If it is run by a charitable foundation, all that money will go back into the kitty for the beneficiaries. I am sure that that is what most hon. Members want.

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Mr. Key : I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will exercise due scepticism about every mention of figures in the debate. One or two estimates have been made, but I think that it would be wise not to speculate on some of the fairy tale arithmetic that has been bandied about.

As for the principle, it is important to recognise that one of the great benefits of our proposed system is the fact that beneficiaries of the lottery will not be involved in the distribution of funds. It is for precisely that reason that the National Heritage Memorial Fund, rather than English Heritage, has been chosen to deal with the heritage side. Otherwise, charities might have some difficulty in achieving their objectives.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross) : As chairman of the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland, I find it unfortunate that an English organisation has been chosen to distribute the funds. I also felt, listening to the debate, that sport came first and heritage nowhere. May I ask for Scottish National Heritage to have a major share and a voice in what is being done?

Mr. Key : I will ensure that my hon. and learned Friend is very well funded. I assure him that the National Heritage Memorial Fund is a United Kingdom organisation, not an English organisation : that is precisely why we chose it.

Opposition Members who have not spoken today, and whose voices I certainly miss, supported the private Member's Bill presented last January by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir. I. Lawrence). On that occasion, many of them made good speeches. This illustrates the serious dilemma in which some of them find themselves. I respect that ; I do not wish it to be felt--as was suggested at one point--that Ministers are being callous, or disregarding the voice of Merseyside. That is far from the truth. The fact is that the hon. Members from Liverpool, Glasgow and Cardiff who have spoken today have found themselves in a difficult position, and have been straightforward enough to say so. Many have no difficulty with the idea of a lottery, but they do have difficulty with the unemployment prospects that they fear. I say "fear" because I believe that the pools companies have a bright future.

Mr. Frank Field : The Minister is mistaken. What we fear is that the national lottery will be rigged in such a way that the football pools will be unable to survive. He has misinterpreted our objections.

Mr. Key : I am coming to that. I am trying to make progress ; perhaps I am giving way too often. [Interruption.] I assure the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) that I shall come to his point. It would be immensely helpful if he did not interrupt so much from a sedentary position.

Mr. Wareing : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Key : I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman. Last Friday, I went to Holland to learn at first hand about the oldest national lottery in the world. I met the Finance Minister, the director and staff of the lottery, a retail newsagent, who makes a handsome living for himself and his family by selling tickets, and the cheerful and satisfied customers of the Dutch national lottery system.

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The Dutch national lottery is a normal and accepted part of national life. It is also, incidentally, accepted by most of the Dutch churches, which are noted for their puritanical orthodoxy. The Dutch national lottery is specifically designed not to encourage compulsive or addictive gambling and it co-exists with football pools. Thus it has much in common with our proposals.

There are, however, big differences. These differences are much envied by the Dutch. For example, there is to be a clear distinction between the body raising the revenue and the body that spends it. The same applies to competitive tendering for the operation and computerisation from the start, thus ensuring that the largest possible amount of money is raised for good causes. We shall also use existing organisations to distribute money direct to beneficiaries at local as well as national level. The Dutch also envy the flexibility that we propose to build into our national lottery in order to react to changing circumstances. They also envy our ability to offer new games to meet the needs of niche marketing.

In the past, I have not done the football pools, though not for any particular reason ; nor have I betted on greyhounds, horses and so on. However, I have--and so, I guess, have most other hon. Members--bought raffle tickets endlessly in support of my party at its ward meetings. I have also bought raffle tickets in aid of churches and charities throughout my constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) made a crucial point when he called for our national lottery to be the best national lottery in the world. Of course that must be right.

The pools companies have distributed to right hon. and hon. Members a package that is full of tendentious assertions and, in my view, a partial interpretation of the facts. The pools companies quote from their own Coopers and Lybrand report and from their prediction that they will have to cut over 4,000 jobs. The tables provided by the pools companies were, I found, fascinating. I wonder, though, whether they have less to do with the lottery and more to do with the pools companies' aspirations to cut the work force and whether that is why they have been seeking voluntary redundancies for some time and have cut their work force drastically over the past few years. Selective quotations are given from the Department's report.

Mrs. Jane Kennedy : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Key : I will give way, but I wish to reach the end of this point.

The pools companies know that what they say can never be refuted because, as we have said time and time again, the report was compiled with the co- operation of lottery operators world wide, on the basis that it would never be published. I am not going to break commercial promises just to disprove the narrow assertions of the pools companies. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Workington interrupts from a sedentary position and says, "Ask them." We have no intention of going back to those companies. It is unnecessary to do so because they made it clear when writing to us that under no circumstances would they give us any information if it was to be published.

Mrs. Jane Kennedy : The Minister has gone on record as saying that he does not wish the football pool companies

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to be disadvantaged in their competition with the national lottery. Can he explain how that would be brought about, for it seems to me that they are disadvantaged all the way ?

Mr. Key : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State dealt with that point in his speech. We have said all along that we see no need for concessions. We have not so far been convinced by the arguments for concessions. If I were working for the pools companies, I would say to the management that most people want a lottery, that many people play the pools and that instead of entering into an extremely expensive campaign against the whole principle of the

lottery--pretending that this is not in some way self interest--it ought to take on the competition of the national lottery and say that no concessions, in order to take on that competition, are needed.

Mr. Graham : The Minister has referred to the pools companies. He also said that all the newsagents will make a fortune and do well out of the national lottery. What will happen, however, to the 70,000 part-time collectors whom the pools companies already pay ? Those people will end up with less money in their pockets. That, in turn, will ensure that shops and everybody else lose out.

Mr. Key : The hon. Gentleman made a forceful and notable speech this afternoon, to which I listened with much care. One of the dilemmas that I face in deciding whether to accept the concessions that are being pressed by the pools industry is that if, for example, the pools industry were to gain a concession on retail outlets the 70,000 collectors would be the first on to the dole queues. That is a serious problem, and I am not convinced that the balance of the argument is in favour of the hon. Gentleman's proposition. I understand that the two consultants who were engaged on the GAH report have a long and unique track record and that the new consultancy was formed at that point. There is nothing more to be said on the matter. It is a matter of great regret that the Labour party should seek to disparage the expertise of that company, which won the competition fairly and openly.

It would help the House if I reiterated the message of the GAH report. It is nothing sinister. It considered what the Department of National Heritage should be looking for in establishing a national lottery. It produced a touchstone against which we could measure the likely effectiveness of our legislation. It told us that the lottery spend throughout the world comes not from gambling spend but from general expenditure. In other words, the national lottery will not principally divert funds away from the pools. The report concluded that only if the pools did nothing would employment in the pools industry suffer. Salvation lies in the hands of the pools companies. In an attempt to persuade the hon. Member for Preston to join us in the Lobby and not to vote against the principle, I say that we always made it clear that this was not a question of a money factory turning out new money and that there would be displaced expenditure. Research shows that that displaced expenditure would be consumer spending in, for example, high street shops on sweets, magazines or soft drinks. It is the last pennies that people have when they go shopping and decide that they have enough to spend on such products. There is nothing secret in that.

It is a pity that the Opposition have been taken in by the power of lobbying. The Opposition amendment is not a

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runner. Of course a Bill to establish a national lottery cannot contain any measures specifically to protect employment in Merseyside or the other places mentioned in the amendment. How could the Bill constrain the employment practices of highly profitable private companies? I repeat that the action of the pools companies is more likely to lead to job losses than the coming of the national lottery. They have shown that by changing their rules they can offer a better chance of winning large jackpots. They can set their own house in order, and that they have done so is a promising sign of realism. The pools companies ask for equal tax levels. That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the pools are taxed at a higher rate because their profits before tax would otherwise be 45 per cent. of turnover. They are a very profitable business, but let us be quite clear that there is nothing wrong with that. The pools companies are responsible employers and they contribute to the arts and sport, and in particular to football, because the Chancellor gave them a tax concession, but their primary purpose, which is legitimate and which they achieve highly successfully, is to make private profits for the private sector. In the Bill we are promoting the wider public good.

The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) made great play of additionality. I repeat the commitment given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the proceeds of the national lottery should not substitute for that provided in other ways. The proceeds will not be brought within the control total, and the Government will not make any case -by-case reduction in conventional expenditure programmes to take account of lottery proceeds. The Government will continue to provide the finance necessary from within public expenditure programmes to enable their policy objectives to be achieved.

My right hon. Friend alluded to partnership funding, an issue raised by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley in relation to Conservative party briefings. We have always said that there would be partnership funding. It is entirely sensible and acceptable, and it is gaining ground in many aspects of public spending.

The hon. Member for Cynon Valley asked what guidelines there would be for Oflot on the selection of an operator. The main concern will be to ensure the probity of the company chosen to undertake the operation. The director general will be under a general duty to ensure that the lottery is operated in a way that will guarantee propriety and protect the consumer and, subject to those considerations, will raise the maximum amount of money for good causes. He will operate a selection criterion which will reflect that general duty and, in line with that duty, the company chosen will also need to prove that it has the ability to establish the machinery to run the lottery quickly and to market it effectively.

Within those overall objectives, it will be for the companies which wish to bid to produce their proposals--for example, for prize levels and administration--in order to maximise the return for good causes, and the bidding process will be fully competitive.

The hon. Member for Cynon Valley also said that we should consult widely, including the pools and charities. I have sought to deal with her point. The White Paper invited comments and more than 200 individuals and organisations responded--only 17 were against the scheme. We have worked closely with the National

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Council for Voluntary Organisations and the Association of Charitable Foundations, and an official from my Department sat in as observer at their respective working parties. We have taken on board many of the concerns of the charitable and voluntary sectors in producing our proposals. We have also held a series of meetings with the pools organisations. First, we held a series at official level and then with the Ministers on 9 December last.

We have carefully included in the Bill a clause that admits further amendment in respect of the pools on which we are prepared to listen to rational arguments. I cannot say fairer than that. There will be an opportunity to debate that issue in Committee. The opportunity to convince us of the need for further concessions is available, and it will no doubt be taken up.

The hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien) asked me specifically about fettering the discretion of prospective lottery operators by telling them how to design the lottery. We do not believe that instant games of the national lottery, including scratch cards, will compete directly with small charitable lotteries. We have done much to improve the climate for them.

The hon. Members for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) and for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) have a real problem. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw said that the Government would not publish the GAH report because it showed that the lottery was a con for the operator. However, his hon. Friend said that Coopers and Lybrand had said that 5,000 jobs would be lost whereas GAH claims--it is alleged--that there would be 1,100 job losses but that that report is not available to him. On the basis of the case of 1,100 losses, it would clearly be in the Government's interests to publish the report versus the Coopers and Lybrand forecast, but the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said that we dare not. They cannot both be right. Nor can the hon. Gentleman say that the scheme will be a financial flop so we should not let it get off the ground and, at the same time, say that it will be such a huge success that the whole pools industry will be put at risk. Someone who seems to understand the national lottery is the Labour party's Front Bench spokesman on the citizens charter and women, the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms. Hoey). Almost exactly a year ago, she told the House :

"Last night at a Labour party ward meeting I spent £2 on a raffle ticket. I did not win--I never do. I do not believe that buying a raffle ticket is gambling. Nor do I believe that the average member of the British public believes that it is.

... It is patronising to the poor to imply that they do not have the free will to make a choice about whether to buy a lottery ticket."--[ Official Report, 17 January 1992 ; Vol. 201, c. 1261-2.] There is not a single hon. Member whose constituents will not benefit from the measure. If right hon. and hon. Members vote against the Bill tonight, will they promise to forgo all future benefits to their constituents? I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to vote to give the Bill a Second Reading. That will prove to our constituents that we listen to what they say, that we can look to the broader horizon and that we are not prepared to sacrifice the creation of a new industry with far-reaching beneficial consequences on the altar of narrow self-interest.

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided : Ayes 269, Noes 310.

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Division No. 122] [10 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Margaret

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Dr. Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyce, Jimmy

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Cann, Jamie

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clapham, Michael

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Coffey, Ann

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Corston, Ms Jean

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Dafis, Cynog

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Denham, John

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian H.

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, Bill

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fisher, Mark

Flynn, Paul

Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

Foster, Derek (B'p Auckland)

Foster, Don (Bath)

Foulkes, George

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Galbraith, Sam

Galloway, George

Gapes, Mike

George, Bruce

Gerrard, Neil

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Godsiff, Roger

Golding, Mrs Llin

Gordon, Mildred

Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Grocott, Bruce

Gunnell, John

Hain, Peter

Hall, Mike

Hanson, David

Hardy, Peter

Harman, Ms Harriet

Henderson, Doug

Heppell, John

Hill, Keith (Streatham)

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Kate

Home Robertson, John

Hood, Jimmy

Hoon, Geoffrey

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Hoyle, Doug

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Hutton, John

Illsley, Eric

Ingram, Adam

Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)

Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)

Jamieson, David

Janner, Greville

Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)

Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Keen, Alan

Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)

Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)

Khabra, Piara S.

Kilfedder, Sir James

Kilfoyle, Peter

Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn)

Kirkwood, Archy

Leighton, Ron

Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

Lewis, Terry

Litherland, Robert

Livingstone, Ken

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Loyden, Eddie

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