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Several hon. Members have asked today what the point of the visas is. What is the purpose behind the plan for common visas? Clearly it is designed to build up an enormous computer database.Mr. Clarke : The hon. Gentleman is trying to return to what he was saying a moment ago. If we are not careful, he will soon be making a speech about the Dublin convention on asylum seekers. We have ratified that, through the ad hoc committee of Immigration Ministers. The convention that the hon. Gentleman is talking about is now before that ad hoc committee, and it has been agreed in principle but not ratified. Currently, I am afraid, it is not likely to be ratified in the near future.
Such discussions take place now. Like my predecessors, I regularly go to Europe and discuss such matters at meetings of the ad hoc committee of Immigration Ministers. That is my responsibility in government, and it also falls solely within the responsibility of this Parliament. I am accountable to Parliament for these matters, and no one has ever bothered to challenge them in the past. The Bill simply puts arrangements which are already in place on a more formal footing. If Maastricht is ratified, the hon. Gentleman will get more information about these discussions than he has been able to obtain in the past. There will be no surrender of our sovereignty or control. Although this is an interesting debate, and I accept that I am accountable for what I have agreed to in the Dublin convention, it has absolutely nothing to do with Maastricht. The hon. Gentleman's right to raise these matters on behalf of his constituents is not even faintly affected by this debate.
Mr. Madden : The Home Secretary deftly seeks to encourage us to regard all these matters as separate boxes, but those of us who deal with them daily know that they are linked. There has been a coalition between Front-Bench spokesmen across the Chamber in this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) was moved to say late last night that not only is there a coalition between them but they also all happen to be lawyers. They seem to be trying to kid us that these matters have no implications for other areas. In that they are terribly wrong. All of them are related, all of them are linked.
The main objective, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) said, is to keep out of fortress Europe as many black and Asian people as possible and to create as much difficulty as possible for black and Asian non-EC nationals living in the European Community who seek to exercise their rights to free movement within it.
Mr. Corbyn : My hon. Friend has an excellent point about these links. It may be convenient for the Home Secretary to say that the House will not be prevented from debating these issues : that may well be true. A county council is not usually fettered in what it can debate. The problem is that it does not always have powers to do anything. If Maastricht goes through, we will be unable to have an asylum and immigration policy different from that laid down by the European Community, because of the reserve powers that the Community holds to take asylum and immigration into its jurisdiction.
Mr. Madden : My hon. Friend is right.
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7.45 pmMr. Cash : I have a great deal of sympathy in principle with the hon. Gentleman's notion--that under the treaty these matters will effectively be dealt with as if the Community were a single state. Implicit in that is the idea that no Community national would ever be persecuted in circumstances arising under article 1 of the Geneva convention. Given the unfortunate and depressing assessment of what is happening in Germany at present--the persecution of people who have gone to that country and the revival of fascism there--would the hon. Gentleman be satisfied if the same sort of principles were applied under the treaty as appear not to be applied to those being persecuted in Germany?
Mr. Madden : I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman voted for the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Bill, which was an essential building block- -
Mr. Cash : I am talking about the EEC.
Mr. Madden : That Bill laid down a number of important principles, which are a blueprint for fortress Europe. They will all be adopted by every other EC member state. Her Majesty's Government are in the vanguard.
When we challenged the Under-Secretary in Committee about what would happen when someone was returned, having sought asylum in this country, to a so- called safe third country, he said that he did not know--it was not his business. That shows the compassion of the Government.
The Bill also requires those seeking asylum to be fingerprinted. We could not even get the Government to set an age limit below which a child should not be fingerprinted. They even refused to exempt lone children seeking asylum here. As far as I know, only one Conservative Member voted against one of the most offensive clauses, although others abstained.
Conservative Members' education about these matters is not quite as good as it could be, but I trust that, when the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Bill returns from another place, where I hope that their Lordships will defeat clause 10, Conservative Members will not bring pressure to bear to overturn their Lordships' decision.
Mr. Marlow : I think that, once again, my right hon. and learned Friend may inadvertently be misleading the House. I draw attention again to article K.3(2). My right hon. and learned Friend said that we have a double lock on immigration and asylum issues, and that they are still under the control of the House, but under article K.3(2) it is possible that, late at night at a Council meeting in Europe, it will be unanimously decided to take joint action on an initiative of the Commission, or to agree to joint proposals.
Once we take joint action, a joint policy emerges, and once there is a joint policy at the European level, we can never take back control of it. My right hon. and learned Friend might have to come to the House to explain his decision, but by then the matter would be over and done with.
Mr. Madden : The Home Secretary has been listening intently ; I hope that he is preparing to intervene to answer the questions put to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) and other hon. Members, including myself.
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Mr. Kenneth Clarke : I cannot remember how many times I have answered these questions in the past six or seven hours. We held an exhaustive discussion on article K.3(2) yesterday. Decisions under it must be taken unanimously. That means that the British and Danish Governments would have to agree to them, and it is quite plain that no foreseeable Danish or British Government would so so.
They also require the approval of the House, because, even under article K.3(2), conventions must be carried forward in accordance with constitutional arrangements in each member state. The double lock is most unlikely to be unlocked in the foreseeable future. That is why I say that, in this part of the treaty, nothing is being brought into the Community's competence except the list of countries from which we require visas, and the format of the visas.
Mr. Madden : When an EC national and his host of dependants comes to this country under these provisions, it will be necessary for that EC national to apply for residence after six months. What information will be required then? Who will make the decision? Will there be a right of appeal if the right of residence is refused?
These are important matters, directly bearing on the question of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney, who asked what information will be required when an EC national, with his large army of dependants--they are unacceptable if they come from Bosnia--applies. I see the Home Secretary laughing, but these are serious issues. Let us not forget that 300 million EC nationals could come here if they wished to.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East that it is unlikely that 300 million EC nationals will seek to come to Britain. However, that might happen and even The Sun might one day be persuaded to issue some warnings about it. I urge the Home Secretary to think about that.
Mr. Spearing : On a point of order, Dame Janet. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) has asked the Home Secretary some questions, and earlier in the debate my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) asked the Home Secretary whether he intended to reply to the debate. The Home Secretary did not make that clear.
At about this time yesterday, the Home Secretary was the fourth speaker in the debate, and since then many questions have been put to him. The many hon. Members who are seriously debating these matters, let alone people outside who are concerned for parliamentary democracy, will not regard the debate as complete until there is a proper and considered reply from a responsible Minister to speeches made yesterday and today. Such a reply would be forthcoming in a Standing Committee.
The Second Deputy Chairman : The Chair cannot force any hon. Member to his feet. No doubt the Home Secretary will have heard the comments of hon. Members.
Mr. Marlow : Further to that point of order, Dame Janet. You have said that you cannot force any hon. Member to his feet. You will be aware that there is an overwhelming desire in the Committee to hear from my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, who is courteous and who would wish to reply before the end of the debate.
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Mr. Kenneth Clarke : Further to that point of order, Dame Janet. Never in my time in Parliament have I been surrounded by such a desperate demand to be heard at the end of a seven-hour debate during which I have intervened probably more frequently than any hon. Member. I assure the Committee that, if I hear a single point to which I have not already replied three times, I might be persuaded to my feet, but not otherwise.
Mr. Madden rose --
Mr. Shore : Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Shore : The Home Secretary protests too much. He has made that comment several times, but it does not mean that he has answered the questions that were put to him. The question to which he refuses to turn his mind relates not to the matters in article K and article 100c but to the basic matter in article 8a :
"Every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in this Treaty and by the measures adopted to give it effect."
Will the Home Secretary address those conditions and other matters in the treaty so that we may know what right has been given to 300 million Europeans and so that we can judge how such rights compare with rights that may be extended to people from third countries, those who are not Community nationals?
Mr. Clarke rose --
The Second Deputy Chairman : Order. We cannot have an intervention on an intervention.
Mr. Madden : I will give way to the Home Secretary.
Mr. Clarke : The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) spoke about article 8a of the Single European Act. At least three times in the debate I have restated the Government's policy on that article and its interpretation, which is identical to the interpretation that we placed on it when the Single European Act received the approval of Parliament many years ago.
Mr. Madden : The Committee will form its own judgment on that response.
I shall conclude by referring to the difficulties faced by many British citizens when visiting other EC states and outline a case with reference to France. Late last night, my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald) raised the issue of the legal position of a French citizen who was refused the right to enter the United Kingdom. The Home Secretary looked a bit perplexed, and on brief reflection denied that a French citizen refused a right of entry to the United Kingdom had any remedy in the European Court of Justice.
One of my constituents, a British citizen recently refused entry to France, is seeking compensation from the French Government. If he is not given satisfaction, he intends, on legal advice, to take the case to the European Court. The incident occurred in early December, and my constituent, who was travelling on a British visitor's passport and also had in his possession his British citizen certificate, was refused entry at Calais by a French immigration officer who could not speak English, who did not endeavour to get assistance from a colleague who did,
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and who did not bother to make any inquiries of officials in Dover or anywhere else. My constituent was back on the ferry within 14 minutes of seeking entry to France.Mr. Macdonald : Does my hon. Friend agree that he is making a powerful case for the treaty and for opening the borders in a way that will enable his constituent to travel freely to France or to any other Community country? If my hon. Friend's constituent is denied entry, he can go to the European Court of Justice and base his case on the treaty's provisions.
Mr. Madden : I hope that I am making a powerful case to underline what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East and other hon. Members--that, far too often, immigration officials in the United Kingdom, other Community countries and elsewhere take arbitrary and unjust decisions based on the appearance of the person concerned.
My constituent is a British citizen of Pakistan origin. The French immigration official saw from his papers that he was born in Jhelum in Pakistan, and to him it was inconceivable that someone born in Pakistan could be a British citizen entitled to exercise his right of free movement. I hope that my constituent will receive assistance from the Government.
Mr. Marlow : On a point of order, Dame Janet. For the first time in the debate, there is a large number--relatively speaking--of Liberal Democrat Members in the Committee. They have obviously been told by the Government that the Government intend to move the closure fairly soon. They have not told me. Have they told you, Dame Janet?
The Second Deputy Chairman : Who may be here and who may not is not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Nicholas Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West) : Further to that point of order, Dame Janet. Is it not relevant for the occupant of the Chair to know who is in the Committee, so that hon. Members who wish to speak are not unfortunately overlooked?
The Second Deputy Chairman : The hon. Gentleman well knows the context in which I made my comments.
Mr. Madden : On 4 January the Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd), perhaps the most relaxed and laid-back member of the Government, told me :
"A copy of your letter has been faxed to the Consular Section of the British Embassy in Paris. They will take the matter up directly with the French Immigration Service. As you say this matter is distressing. It is very rare for immigration officers to take exception to British nationals travelling on British Visitors Passports. I will write to you again when we receive a reply from the French authorities."
No reply has yet been received. Although my constituent is a British citizen, he was travelling on a British visitor's passport because of the horrendous difficulty in obtaining a British passport. As the Home Secretary knows, long delays led to those who were entitled to British passports seeking visitors' passports at post offices. I hope that the Home Secretary will ensure that those entitled to British citizenship and to British passports will be able to get them reasonably quickly. I also hope that he will ensure that non-EC nationals settled
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in the United Kingdom will be able to travel to other EC member states for a period of three months without the need to apply for a visa.8 pm
Mr. Nicholas Winterton : I am following the hon. Gentleman's speech carefully ; he has made some excellent points. Does he agree that the arrangement between the United Kingdom and the USA to dispense with the necessity for visas is beneficial and useful? As the USA is a major trading partner and many Americans live here, the arrangement is valuable. However, it might be scrapped if the sort of scenario outlined by the hon. Gentleman came about, which would be to the disadvantage of a major trading partner and a major friend of this country.
Mr. Madden : I agree that it is important to maintain the three- month tourist period on visits to America. I appeal to the Home Secretary to scrap clause 9 of the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Bill--
Mr. James Arbuthnot (Wanstead and Woodford) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put :--
The House divided : Ayes 293, Noes 230.
Division No. 128] [8.01 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Alton, David
Amess, David
Ancram, Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Aspinwall, Jack
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowden, Andrew
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chaplin, Mrs Judith
Chapman, Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dickens, Geoffrey
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
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