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Bosnia
3.33 pm
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West) : I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"securing peace in Bosnia."
With the collapse of the Geneva peace talks, Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen are going to the United Nations Security Council to ask that United Nations pressure be applied for the acceptance of their peace agreement. We are faced with the prospect of the United Nations being asked to apply political, economic and military pressures on any party which refuses to accept the Vance-Owen proposals.
The House has not debated Bosnia for a considerable period. The people of Bosnia, the British forces who are risking their lives in Bosnia and the British public--indeed, hon. Members of the House--are entitled to know the policy on Bosnia of Her Majesty's Government. What instructions will be issued by Her Majesty's Government to our representatives in the United Nations in the coming days when the life and death decisions are to be taken?
If the Vance-Owen plan remains unacceptable, and if even the United Nations action to enforce the agreement fails, what will Britain, the European Community and the rest of the international community do to stop the slaughter, lift the sieges, stop the ethnic cleansing, feed the hungry, provide safe havens for those in great danger and stop the rape of women and of girls as young as six?
The terribly difficult future for Bosnia should have been aired in the House many times before now. I plead with you, Madam Speaker, to give the House the opportunity of debating how we can secure an effective peace for the people of Bosnia and that poor and very dangerous country.
Madam Speaker : The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"securing peace in Bosnia."
I have listened most carefully to what the hon. Member has said. I have to give my decision without giving any reasons. I am afraid that I do not consider the matter that he has raised as appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 20. I therefore cannot submit his application to the House.
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Points of Order
3.35 pm
Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Among your many onerous duties--I cannot pretend that this is a major matter--you are responsible for the supervision of the customs, practices and behaviour of the House. You will know that on Thursday night there was a motion to suspend the 10 o'clock rule. When the vote took place, 15 members of the Liberal party voted for that suspension. One gained the impression that it was their intention to pursue and follow the debate thereafter. Apparently, that was not so. There was a subsequent vote between 12 and 1 o'clock and only one Liberal member was present.
Is it appropriate that people should vote for the House to carry on its business into the early hours of the morning and then absent themselves into the darkness of the night and leave it to other people--
Madam Speaker : Order. As Speaker, I do not listen to points of order about matters which arose when the House was in Committee.
Mr. Peter Hain (Neath) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. As reported in The Guardian, the Post Office Board and the Government are conspiring to privatise the Post Office--Post Office managers to line their pockets and Ministers to line the Treasury coffers. Surely we should have a parliamentary debate about that. Have you had any request from the Government to make an urgent statement about the matter before they make their final decisions?
Madam Speaker : No Ministers have let me know that they wish to make a statement on that issue.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Have you had a request from the Secretary of State for National Heritage to make a statement about the takeover of LBC? I wonder whether you and others are aware that the previous company, Crown Communications group, ran LBC into bankruptcy. It has now been stated that some of the personnel who brought the company down and made it bankrupt will run the new company, with Lady Porter as a backseat driver. It is high time that we had a statement.
Madam Speaker : I have not been informed by any Ministers that they wish to make a statement today on that matter.
Statutory Instruments, &c
Madam Speaker : With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to statutory instruments.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments &c.),
Licensed Betting Offices
That the Licensed Betting Offices (Amendment) Regulations 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 51) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
That the Licensed Betting Offices (Amendment) Scotland Regulations 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 68) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
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Enterprise Zones
That the Lanarkshire (Motherwell) Enterprise Zones Designation Order 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 24) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
That the Lanarkshire (Hamilton) Enterprise Zones Designation Order 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 23) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
That the Lanarkshire (Monklands) Enterprise Zones Designation Order 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 25) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Lightbown.]
Question agreed to.
Madam Speaker : We now come to the Orders of the Day-- [Interruption.] Order. We do not want any side meetings going on here. There is an important one going on at the moment from the Chair.
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Orders of the Day
European Communities (Amendment) Bill
Considered in Committee [ Progress, 28 January ]
[ Mr. Michael Morris
in the Chair ]
3.37 pm
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. We are proceeding with a Bill which deals with all aspects of European union at the very moment when the previous showcase of European union, the exchange rate mechanism, is in tatters. Is it appropriate for us to proceed further, especially with the debate on citizenship of what is described as the union, without a Minister coming before the Committee to tell us the latest position on the ERM and the impact and influence that it will have on the pound? It seems to me that we are proceeding down a Utopian and impractical road when the previous scheme is already in tatters and no statement has been made to the House or the Committee. I should like your guidance accordingly.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael Morris) : The hon. Gentleman's point does not have too much relevance to amendment No. 12. I suggest that we proceed with the debate on that amendment.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. Following on from what my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) said about the demise of the ERM, as this Maastricht debate is closely connected with the ERM, which has seemingly reached a state of collapse, could it not be argued that we should not proceed with this tinpot Maastricht Bill? It is meaningless. France or one of the Benelux countries may well be the next to suffer the domino effect. The whole thing is crazy. We keep debating this issue despite the fact that it is dead. It is time we directed our attention to questions that matter to the people-- unemployment, housing, education--and stopped pottering about with a Bill that ought to have its neck wrung.
The Chairman : As the hon. Member is aware, the Bill was given a Second Reading by a majority of 244. I am therefore duty bound to ensure that we proceed with the Committee stage and that we have a fair debate.
Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : You, Mr. Morris, know that today's business was decided last week. You look at me in a quizzical manner, but it is a fact that the menu for this week was decided through the usual channels. Last week, it was decided that we should debate this Bill today. However, since that time certain events concerning the exchange rate mechanism have taken place. The Bill is, in large measure, about European monetary union--a system based on various rules and regulations which, after the events of the past weekend, will not be appropriate. European monetary union can work only through arrangements different from those provided for in the Bill.
How is it possible for the Committee, at this late stage, to make the necessary contact with the Government to secure a change in today's business? It is quite obvious that this Bill is no longer appropriate, as the European
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exchange rate mechanism is dead, and monetary union is buried. We are legislating for something that is manifest nonsense. May we have your assistance, Mr. Morris?The Chairman : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, but the rules of the House of Commons are such that I have to accept the business that is set down for today. The first amendment for debate is No. 12, which deals with citizenship.
Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney) : I do not know when we shall reach the question of cohesion, but that debate may not be far off. I am aware of the fact that, in dealing with large numbers of amendments, the Chair faces difficulties. However, I have to say that, in respect of this question, it seems that two debates are joined. It is quite clear that at least half of these amendments are sponsored by hon. Members who are interested in the composition of the Committee of the Regions. As different parts of the United Kingdom are represented here, I understand the widespread interest. However, there is a distinct sub-cluster of amendments dealing with the substance of regional policy--a matter of great importance. Have you, Mr. Morris, been able to consider this matter, and will you give some thought to the possibility of our having two separate debates for this group?
The Chairman : I am especially grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, to whose letter I have responded. He may find my reply on the Board, although it will not have been there until about 2.30 pm. In essence, many of these categories represent a confederation of issues. I have to look at the opening amendment and consider the implications of those that are attached to it. The right hon. Gentleman will find that, in the end, it is a matter of judgment. On the question of cohesion, my judgment is that all the amendments that are linked pull to the centre. It may well be that some of the regional issues will develop, and it will be in order, in the course of speeches relating to certain amendments, to allude to them. Nevertheless, as they have particular relevance to the lead amendment, I am not inclined to break down the groups.
Mr. William Cash (Stafford) : We are about to turn to the question of citizenship, which is, of course, related to elections and, in turn, to the rights of voters, who, at general elections, determine matters relating to monetary affairs. From all that is happening in the markets, it is abundantly clear that the exchange rate mechanism and economic and monetary union are dead.
The Chairman : Order. That may have been an ingenious way of reintroducing the question of the exchange rate mechanism, but I have already ruled on that matter, and I do not want any further references to it.
Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. We all appreciate the problem that the grouping of amendments pose for the Chair. You told my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) that the important debates on the constitution and the powers and activities of the Committee of the Regions are linked to the broad issue of cohesion, which covers north-south regional assistance. According to your ruling, those amendments will be taken together. Will you bear in mind that if the amendments
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were to be incorporated in a Bill it might well contain 10 or 12 clauses and two schedules, as was the case when we discussed the question of asylum last week? Will you bear that and the range of subjects under discussion in mind when making any decision about the conclusion of the debate?The Chairman : I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that the Chair is willing to listen sympathetically to particular points made and especially to distinctive points, as I have said during discussions on earlier amendments.
3.45 pm
Mr. Winnick : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. You said that you did not want to take any more points of order on the exchange rate mechanism and, as always, I abide by the ruling of the Chair. I should like your guidance on the circumstances in which you would be willing to consider a manuscript amendment, if events in the outside world make our debate irrelevant.
The Chairman : When I see the manuscript amendment.
Mr. Roger Knapman (Stroud) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. You mentioned that you were minded to consider the closure with sympathy and with regard to the number of amendments in the group. Can you confirm that, on average, during the passage of the Single European Act, three amendments were grouped together ? The next group contains 12 and, under the heading of cohesion, 23 amendments and four new clauses are grouped together. Am I right in thinking, therefore, that each debate should be roughly seven times as long as the average during our consideration of the Single European Act ?
The Chairman : The hon. Gentleman's interpretation of my earlier remarks is entirely wrong. I do not think that I said anything to that effect, and frankly I am surprised that he picked it up. The number of amendments is irrelevant to the length of the debate. It is open to hon. Members to put down a host of similar amendments. I have served on Bills when there have been even more amendments than there are for this Bill. It is the Chair's responsibility to ensure that there is a full debate on and around the lead amendment and the matters that flow from it.
Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. On the subject of closures, a serious matter is at issue. If a Bill is timetabled, right hon. and hon. Members know exactly how much time they have to deal with each stage of the legislation. We are working to a totally arbitrary system of closures--at the whim of the Government, it seems. Will you use your discretion and, at the very least, will you not cut off an hon. Member in mid-sentence, as happened to the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), because it appears discourteous? You, Mr. Morris, did not do that--it was one of your colleagues in the Chair--but it is a discredit to the Committee.
The Chairman : I must make it clear that the acceptance of a closure is not at the whim of the Government, but is entirely a matter for the judgment of the occupant of the Chair, who decides whether the amendments have been adequately debated.
Mr. Marlow : On a point of order, Mr. Morris.
The Chairman : Is it a new point of order?
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Mr. Marlow : It is totally new, as it has only just occurred to me. My intention is to be helpful. Obviously you and the Committee do not want to legislate for nonsense and we have difficulties because of the monetary situation. Would it be possible to suspend the sitting for a short time because of the great pressure--
The Chairman : Order. No. Clearly, as the point has only just occurred to the hon. Gentleman, it cannot have had much consideration.
Before I call the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) to move the amendment, perhaps the Chair will be allowed a point of order on a subject about which a number of colleagues have written to me. I appeal to members of both Front Benches to speak into the microphones in front of them and to resist the temptation to turn round to address their colleagues, as other Members cannot then hear their arguments.
Clause 1
Treaty on European Union
Mr. Tony Blair (Sedgefield) : I beg to move amendment No. 12, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except Item C on pages 11 and 12 of Cm 1934)'.
The Chairman : With this, it will be convenient also to discuss the following amendments : No. 78, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert (other than Article 8)'.
No. 125, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(excluding Article G C, on pages 11 and 12 of Cm 1934).'. No. 128, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(excluding Article 8e on page 12 of Cm 1934).'.
No. 165, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except Article 8 on page 11 of Cm 1934)'.
No. 166, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except Article 8a on page 11 of Cm 1934)'.
No. 167, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except Article 8b on page 11 of Cm 1934)'.
No. 169, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except Article 8e on page 12 of Cm 1934)'.
No. 317, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
(except paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 8 on page 11 of Cm 1934)'. No. 364, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
except Article 8c as referred to in Article G on page 12 of Command Paper number 1934'.
No. 424, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
other than obligations arising from Articles 8 or Articles 8(a to e) on pages 11 to 12 of Cm 1934, concerning Representation of the People Acts and matters related thereto.'.
No. 427, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
other than duties imposed in citizens of the United Kingdom that would otherwise arise after the coming into force of this Act in respect of Article 8, paragraph (2) in Cm. 1934, page 11, other than those incorporated in an Act of Parliament specifying those duties.'.
No. 428, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
other than Article 8b of Cm. 1934, page 11, except where arrangements existed prior to 1st January 1993.'.
No. 429, in page 1, line 9, after II', insert
except for the second paragraph of Article 8e on page 12 of Cm. 1934.'.
No. 44, in page 1, line 10, after 1992', insert but not Part Two thereof'.
No. 115, in page 1, line 17, at end add--
(3) The above subsections shall only come into force subsequent to the laying before Parliament by Her Majesty's Government of a Command Paper concerning "Citizenship of the Union" which shall include : (i) a description of the
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duties of citizens, as referred to in Article 8(1) of the Treaty on European Union ; (ii) the likely implications for the United Kingdom of Article 8a (Freedom of residence) ; (iii) the need for any derogations in respect of Article 8b (Municipal membership and voting) ; (iv) the effect on the personnel, organisation and financing of H.M. Foreign Service in respect of obligations imposed by Article 8c (Common protection by diplomatic and consular authorities) ; and to approval of the terms of such a document by Resolution of both Houses of Parliament.'.Mr. Blair : This amendment raises the issue of citizenship and the new article 8 of the treaty of Rome that is provided for in the Maastricht Bill. New article 8 declares that every person holding nationality of a member state becomes a European citizen. However, it is made clear that the countries themselves will determine nationality. Under new article 8, such people are deemed citizens of the European Community. The article is partly symbolic as it establishes for the first time the formal concept of citizenship in the European Community. It confers new rights on those citizens. We want to ask the Government questions about their policy on those issues and have debates on them so that everyone may have a full understanding of article 8.
Article 8a provides for a right to move and reside freely within member states, subject to treaty conditions, which include many of the directives promulgated under the treaty of Rome that affect the ability to reside and freedom of movement. Article 8 effectively reiterates, but also slightly expands on, article 8A of the Single European Act 1986. The term "resides" is added in new article 8 in the treaty, but I should have thought that that was implied by the provisions in the Single European Act.
Under new article 8a(2), the Council may unanimously act to facilitate the rights of people as citizens after a proposal from the European Council and the specific assent of the European Parliament. Article 8b gives citizens the right to vote in local elections of the country where they are residing, subject to details that will be drawn up by the Council by the end of 1994, after a proposal by the Commission and consultation with the European Parliament. There is also an additional safeguard of derogations being permitted where warranted by the specific problems of a member state. That gives, for the first time, a right to vote in local elections where the nationals of any member state are residing in a member country.
Mr. Cash : Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the word "municipal" does not necessarily mean local? In European law and in the Court of Justice, the ruling has already been given in an important Italian case that the word "municipal", as applied to the treaty, would also mean national. The word "municipal" is regarded as referring to national in the context of the European Community. Therefore, it is highly debatable whether the hon. Gentleman can say that, in this context, the word "municipal" means local.
Mr. Blair : Of course, I shall study the judgment to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I should have thought that the word "municipal" was used here precisely to distinguish such elections from national elections. I would be deeply surprised if, in that context, the word "municipal" had the opposite meaning of national.
The details of how the procedures are to be implemented will provide a further opportunity to answer the hon. Gentleman's question. The details are to be the
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subject of proposals drawn up by the Council, on a proposal by the Commission and after consultation with the European Parliament. The procedure is time limited, and should be complete by the end of 1994. Will the Home Secretary say whether there are any procedures to be undertaken in the event of failure to reach such an agreement, which is possible?Some nations--as I understand it, Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands-- already grant some form of right to vote in local elections. This country gives such a right to Commonwealth and Irish citizens. Article 8b(2) has the same procedures, but on a slightly different timetable, on the ability to vote in elections for the European Parliament. The details of such procedures are to be agreed by the end of 1993. Article 8c extends the protection by diplomatic or consular authorities of all member states to any of their citizens.
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