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Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Circencester and Tewkesbury) : If, as my hon. Friend says, there is such a need for the services to Cleethorpes, are not the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport just what my hon. Friend needs? If there is a need for those services, a franchiser will be prepared to bid for the services and my hon. Friend will then get the service that he wants.

Mr. Brown : That is the point that I made a few moments ago. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend the Member for Circencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown). My hon. Friend is absolutely spot on.

However, we must obtain those franchises services when services continue to exist as going concerns. When the new timetables are introduced in May, the service is to be withdrawn from Cleethorpes. The Railways Bill, which received its Second Reading last week, probably will not

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reach the statute book until July or perhaps not until October or November. There will be an interregnum, during which there will be no direct service.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury would surely agree that if a business is sold as a going concern, it will benefit from the new arrangements to improve that going concern. However, if a business, operation or railway service is shut down and one expects the private sector to crank it up once more, albeit under the new facilities that I welcome in the Railways Bill, that service is more likely to be a success if a new franchised service takes over 24 hours after British Rail relinquishes control and if BR does not pursue its scorched earth policy.

I object to the fact that if BR does not want to provide the service and decides to close it in May, and the new legislation does not reach the statute book until the end of the year, by that time BR will have driven people off the railways to Cleethorpes altogether and into their cars to drive to Newark and Doncaster. That is why it is so wrong for British Rail to claim that it wants to save money on that service when it is prepared to waste money.

Unfortunately, my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury was not present earlier. I shall not go over old ground, but I shall give my hon. Friend an idea of how British Rail has been wasting money. I have with me the environmental assessment of the clauses relating to Shaftholme and the chord line in works Nos. 1 and 1A, which was produced by a firm of consultants for British Rail. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley told the House that those clauses will not be proceeded with. British Rail is prepared to waste money to pay private sector consultants to produce a report on clauses that will not be enacted, yet it is not prepared to provide for my constituents a service from Cleethorpes to London. That is the waste of money in the Bill.

Mr. Clifton-Brown : I am sorry that I was not present at the beginning of my hon. Friend's concise, short speech, but has he tried to suggest to British Rail that it might operate the train to Cleethorpes at peak hours only?

Mr. Brown : I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury will do me the honour of speaking in my constituency, and I hope also that he will use the railways service between now and May to do so. There is but one train a day from Cleethorpes to London in the morning and one train from London to Cleethorpes in the evening. When I became a Member of Parliament 14 years ago there were four trains in each direction. We now have only one train at peak times. [ Hon. Members :-- "Disgraceful."] As my hon. Friends say, that is disgraceful. The situation has deteriorated in that time, and that is why I am so suspicious of British Rail's future intentions.

Mr. Wilson : The hon. Gentleman has certainly brightened up the evening. I am sure that he will go down as the man who isolated Cleethorpes within the space of three general elections. However, for the hon. Gentleman it is a serious point. He will have investigated the differential cost of InterCity services operating on electrified lines and non- electrified lines. In the light of that information, he will be able to inform not only his hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown) but many other hon. Members about the likelihood of InterCity services continuing after being franchised on non-electrified lines.

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Is not the hon. Gentleman's message that, under any auspices, if InterCity is to be a profitable railway, or if bits thereof are to be profitable, there will be no InterCity services operating on non-electrified lines? That carries a very serious message not only for some of my hon. Friends north of Edinburgh, for instance, but for many Conservative Members, as they are about to find out during the passage of the Railways Bill.

Mr. Brown : I certainly had my suspicions back in 1988 that British Rail had no wish to have high-speed 125 trains--that is, the diesel electric powered trains that do not require overhead cables--going anywhere near King's Cross. I have heard from railway experts in my constituency, such as the Railway Development Society based in Cleethorpes, that British Rail wants to do everything that it can to run only electrified trains into King's Cross. That certainly carries the implications that the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North mentioned. Any high-speed 125 train that goes to King's Cross is a vulnerable service. The service from Hull to King's Cross is certainly vulnerable. Concern has been expressed about the service in Goole, which is operated from Hull to King's Cross.

I am only just coming to my concluding remarks with regard to the provisions of the Bill concerning Brigg. I now turn to the provisions--

9.59 pm

Mr. Gary Waller (Keighley) : rose in his place and claimed to move That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The House divided : Ayes 83, Noes 51.

Division No. 143] [9.58 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashby, David

Bates, Michael

Bellingham, Henry

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowden, Andrew

Brazier, Julian

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carttiss, Michael

Chaplin, Mrs Judith

Chapman, Sydney

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Congdon, David

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Donohoe, Brian H.

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Durant, Sir Anthony

Fabricant, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Freeman, Roger

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Home Robertson, John

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)

Legg, Barry

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Merchant, Piers

Moss, Malcolm

Neubert, Sir Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Norris, Steve

Patnick, Irvine

Porter, David (Waveney)

Richards, Rod

Riddick, Graham

Robertson, George (Hamilton)

Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)

Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)

Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Shersby, Michael

Speed, Sir Keith

Spink, Dr Robert

Steen, Anthony

Stephen, Michael

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Thomason, Roy

Thurnham, Peter

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Waller, Gary

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wilson, Brian

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)

Wood, Timothy

Yeo, Tim

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Michael Trend and

Mr. Peter Luff.

NOES

Barnes, Harry

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Cryer, Bob

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Davidson, Ian

Day, Stephen

Dixon, Don

Donohoe, Brian H.

Dover, Den

Eastham, Ken

Elletson, Harold

Etherington, Bill

Flynn, Paul

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Hall, Mike

Hawkins, Nick

Heppell, John

Hood, Jimmy

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Illsley, Eric

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Kilfoyle, Peter

Lewis, Terry

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Llwyd, Elfyn

McAvoy, Thomas

McMaster, Gordon

McWilliam, John

Mahon, Alice

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Mullin, Chris

O'Hara, Edward

Parry, Robert

Pickthall, Colin

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Spellar, John

Stevenson, George

Sweeney, Walter

Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

Watson, Mike

Whittingdale, John

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Jimmy Boyce and

Mr. Michael Brown.

Whereupon Madam Deputy Speaker-- declared that the Question was not decided in the affirmative, because it was not supported by the majority prescribed by Standing Order No. 36 (Majority for closure or for proposal of Question).

It being after Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed upon Thursday 11 February

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