House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 Feb 1993

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American Administration with what is happening in Northern Ireland and in particular with the efforts of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to make progress on the constitutional side.

Mr. Dykes : Will my right hon. Friend and the Prime Minister also encourage the American Administration to get the European Community to play a greater role in the middle eastern peace process and to provide more wisdom, judgment, experience and balance, as well as reminding them of the need to avoid obvious mistakes?

Mr. Hurd : I am not sure that that exact pitch would work very well in Washington. One of the good things that have happened is that the new Administration have declared that the peace process started by Jim Baker should continue and should be a priority. That is why Secretary Warren Christopher is going to the area next week. I look forward to meeting him immediately after that. If we in Europe can help, we should do so. We can encourage and apply pressures, as we have discussed in the House already this afternoon. I do not think that we should seek to complicate the task or take the place of the United States so long as they give the peace process priority.

Dr. John Cunningham : May I warmly welcome the Government's new determination to develop a warm relationship with the Clinton Administration, having previously worked to prevent President Clinton's victory in the election? May I stress that we share the view that it is very important for us in terms of trade? We do not want to descend into a trade war with the United States of America. We want to see final approval of the GATT agreement and we want to see the United States of America playing a positive role in support of the peace process in the former Yugoslavia. All those are important matters on which Britain and the United States of America share interests. I wish the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister well in their discussions with President Clinton and his team.

Mr. Hurd : I am sure that the Prime Minister will be obliged. Thank you.

Poland

11. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last met his polish counterpart to discuss economic development in Poland.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs takes every opportunity to discuss economic and political developments with the Polish Foreign Minister. He last did so at the CSCE meeting in December last year.

Mrs. Gorman : Has my right hon. and learned Friend had a chance to discuss with the Polish economic administration the findings set out in an excellent article in The Economist which point out that while the public sector of the economy is stagnating, the private sector is going ahead by leaps and bounds, because the Government are fragmented, the administration is weak, taxes are therefore difficult to collect and bureaucracy is almost non-existent? As a result, the private sector is now employing 60 per

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cent. of the work force and accounting for half of the gross national product. Does not my right hon. and learned Friend think that we could learn a thing or two from the Poles?

Mr. Hogg : I am glad to say that through our policy of the know-how fund, the Poles have learnt a thing or two from us, particularly the virtues of privatisation.

Mr. Mackinlay : Will the Minister explain why there is a disparity between Poland, Hungary and the two states that formerly constituted Czechoslovakia in terms of guarantees for credit for the medium and long term? Why are we discriminating against Poland and why do we have a mealy- mouthed approach to supporting and sustaining a fragile democracy and economy?

Mr. Hogg : One of their problems when negotiating the budget within the Parliament is to secure sufficient agreement to ensure that the deficit does not exceed 5 per cent.

Bophuthatswana

12. Mr. Nicholas Winterton : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has recently received about Bophuthatswana ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The most recent representation was from my hon. Friend.

Mr. Winterton : Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have an even-handed policy towards all responsible leaders in southern Africa? Will he accept that President Lucas Mangope has led his country in southern Africa for 15 years, a country which is multi-racial and has had democratic elections a number of times since it established its independence? When President Lucas Mangope visits the United Kingdom, will my hon. Friend arrange for a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister to meet him?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : As my hon. Friend knows, the Government do not recognise Bophuthatswana. Therefore, it would not be right for a Foreign Office Minister to meet Mr. Mangope--although, as my hon. Friend knows, there have been contacts at an official level. The future constitutional arrangements for South Africa must be a matter for the South African people to decide, in accordance with their constitutional negotiations. I am glad that the Bophuthatswana Government participated in CODESA 2 and I hope that they will participate in future Convention for a Democratic South Africa negotiations.

Mr. Robert Hughes : Does the Minister recognise that his hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) backed the wrong parties in Angola? Now, because of that sort of backing, the butcher Savimbi is running wild in Angola. The hon. Gentleman also backed the wrong horse in Namibia. Therefore, will the Minister disregard his hon. Friend's representations and instead listen to the people of South Africa, who want a unified, democratic South Africa as quickly as possible? What are the Government doing to help to achieve that?

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Mr. Lennox-Boyd : It does not really help if the House tries to decide the constitutional arrangements for South Africa. It is for the people of South Africa to decide through CODESA when it reconvenes.

Balkans

13. Mr. Jacques Arnold : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the prospects for peace in the Balkans.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : We are our EC partners have made clear our unequivocal support for the work of the international conference for the former Yugoslavia. Its success would be a significant step towards securing stability throughout the Balkans. We are also working to prevent the conflict spilling over into Kosovo or Macedonia and to provide humanitarian relief to those caught up in the fighting.

Mr. Arnold : Is not it precisely because both Kosovo and Macedonia have all the characteristics of a tinder box that the Owen-Vance peace process must be successful and, above all, complied with by the warring parties? Should not we and other countries do our damnest to put pressure on those parties to comply?

Mr. Hogg : To use my hon. Friend's phrase, we are doing our damnest. However, he is right to draw attention to the special problem of the minorities in the former Yugoslavia. We have rightly focused on the question of Bosnia, but we must also pay special regard to the issues of minorities in Serbia, including Kosovo, and also in Croatia. Their rights must be secured as part of any overall settlement.

Mr. Winnick : Could Ministers be a little stronger about what steps will be taken by the international community to bring to justice those who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) said, are undoubtedly involved in terrible crimes? People who have read the articles by Robert Fisk in The Independent have been horrified by the systematic torture and rape of Muslim women. Those responsible should face an international tribunal, and that should not be years away.

Mr. Hogg : It is an extraordinarily difficult and important point, because there is no doubt that the most ghastly crimes have been committed in the former Yugoslavia. We assert, and will continue to assert, that those who commit such crimes, either directly or indirectly, should be held personally accountable. However, there is another problem, which the hon. Gentleman will wish to bear in mind. If the authority--the responsibility-- for those crimes goes as high as the hon. Gentleman and I expect, we must ask ourselves what is the priority : is it to bring people to trial or is it to make peace? That is the sort of tension with which we must deal.

Japan

14. Mr. Batiste : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he will next meet his Japanese opposite number to discuss bilateral relations.

Mr. Hurd : I hope to visit Japan in early April and I am in touch with the Japanese Government about that. I welcome the opportunity that that will give me to discuss

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with the Japanese Foreign Minister our relations with Japan and the whole range of international issues affecting our two countries. We shall also meet at the economic summit in Tokyo in July.

Mr. Batiste : My right hon. Friend's visit will be most timely, as about 200 Japanese companies are now manufacturing in the United Kingdom, directly providing 50,000 jobs, contributing extensively to our balance of trade and reinforcing our manufacturing base. Will my right hon. Friend reassure the Japanese that this Government--unlike the Opposition--remain committed to the policies that have, over the past 10 years, made the United Kingdom the most popular and sensible location for high-quality inward investment in the European Community?

Mr. Hurd : My hon. Friend is entirely right. We have 41 per cent. of Japanese investment in the European Community--partly because we fought hard and successfully to secure free circulation within the single market of products manufactured in the United Kingdom by companies owned in Japan. Japanese companies also bring to this country important research and development. More than 30 of the Japanese firms that my hon. Friend mentioned have research and development units here.

Mr. Skinner : Why does not the Foreign Secretary admit that the real reason that Japanese companies come to Britain and have factories here is because, as with Nissan in Sunderland, they can pick up £300 million of taxpayers' money to set up a factory with no-strike agreements, with only 10 per cent. of the work force being trade union members? They pinched the jobs of other car workers in other parts of Britain. The truth is that the Japanese Government have taken the British Government for a ride, because our balance of trade deficit with Japan is about three times higher than the value of goods that we send to Japan, yet Japan was the nation which was reckoned to have lost the war--and Germany is running a close second.

Mr. Hurd : The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in this--Japanese firms, and those whom they employ in this country, are benefiting from the reforms and changes that this Government brought to British industry. That is part of the reason why Britain is attractive to Japan, and a large part of the reason for rejecting the nostrum of the social chapter.

Israel

15. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will meet the President of Israel when he visits Britain in February to discuss relations between the United Kingdom and Israel.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will call on President Herzog during his visit.

Mr. Marshall : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that peace and mutual understanding in the middle east would be improved if long -standing hostages such as Ron Arad were released? Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that he has been kept incommunicado by

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Arab captors as a prisoner of war for seven years, against all the rules of the Geneva convention? Will representations be made to secure his immediate freedom?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend makes a real point. If Ron Arad is still alive--we thought some two years ago that he was, but we have no up-to-date information--it is extremely important that he be released with all possible speed. The same proposition applies to detainees in south Lebanon. One must acknowledge that the business of holding people without due process of law is intolerable and should stop.

Rev. Martin Smyth : When the Secretary of State meets President Herzog will he make clear to him that, as President Herzog was born in Belfast and reared in Dublin, there is tremendous empathy between our nation and Israel? While we are concerned about detentions in Israel and in the Lebanon, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the standards of justice of Israel's Supreme court are held in high esteem throughout the world?

Mr. Hogg : As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, President Herzog is held in the highest esteem in this country, and also in great affection. As to the Supreme court--yes, its reputation is high, but we must acknowledge also that Israel's policies within the occupied territories need to be rigorously criticised because they frequently constitute gross breaches of human rights. I took the opportunity to say that in Geneva yesterday to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

East Timor

16. Mr. Jon Owen Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will visit Indonesia to make representations about human rights violations in East Timor.

Mr. Goodlad : No. the Indonesian authorities are well aware of our views on the human rights situation in East Timor. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs raised the subject when he met the Indonesian Foreign Minister in Manila in October, as did I- -and as I also did when I visited Indonesia in October. As appropriate, we will take suitable opportunities to do so again in future.

Mr. Jones : Indonesia is not a country at the centre of the world stage and world interest. Does the Minister agree, however, that human rights violations carried out in Indonesia are as important as those carried out in countries that attract more international interest? Does he agree that such violations are more severe in Indonesia than in many other areas? In East Timor, the Government have killed an even larger proportion of the population than were killed by Pol Pot in Cambodia. When will the Government be prepared to act against Indonesia? When will they stop selling goods to the country and stop dealing with its Government?

Mr. Goodlad : The hon. Gentleman is right : Indonesia is an important country. It is an important member of ASEAN--the Association of South-East Asian Nations--and is now chairman of the non-aligned movement.

We and our European partners continue to be concerned about the human rights situation in Indonesia

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and East Timor and we have made our views known to the Indonesians on numerous occasions. We remain profoundly concerned about reports of large numbers of deaths over the years, but we believe that some of the figures have been exaggerated. We believe that constructive dialogue is the most effective way of influencing attitudes and encouraging improvement ; we do not think that cutting off trade, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, would help the people whom he presumably wishes to help.

Mr. Nicholls : Does my right hon. Friend recognise that, far from being unimportant, Indonesia is the fourth largest country in the world and the world's biggest Muslim nation? Is he aware that after the deaths in East Timor--which clearly inspired the question--the Indonesian regime set up a commission of inquiry, as a result of which some army officers were disciplined and others removed from the armed services? Should not regimes such as Indonesia's, which is trying to improve its human rights record, receive due praise for the steps that it has taken, rather than being denigrated by ignorant Opposition Members?

Mr. Goodlad : My hon. Friend is quite right. The Indonesian authorities behaved in an unprecedented manner after the Dili atrocities in bringing those responsible to trial. My hon. Friend is also right in saying that continuing bilateral relations with what is, after all, a very important country, and continuing to provide that country with trade and aid, is the most likely way of bringing about an improvement in human rights, as we all wish to do.

Mr. Tony Banks : May I say that I am quite surprised that the Minister, for whom I have some regard, is prepared to be such a snivelling apologist for the Indonesian regime? Where is the morality in British foreign policy nowadays? Is it not outrageous that the British Government should be prepared to supply arms to the Indonesian regime, in view of the human rights abuses in East Timor? Will the Minister make representations to

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Helmut Kohl, who, I understand, is at this moment preparing to sell large amounts of the old East German navy to the regime?

Mr. Goodlad : As I have said, we and our European partners are deeply concerned about human rights in East Timor and have pulled no punches in making our views known. The expression employed by the hon. Gentleman is entirely inappropriate in this context. No one has been firmer than we have.

As for the hon. Gentleman's question about defence sales, all sovereign states enjoy the right to defend themselves, under article 51 of the United Nations charter. Applications to export British defence equipment are carefully scrutinised. We do not allow the export of arms or equipment likely to be used primarily for repressive purposes against civilian populations. In the case of Indonesia, this criterion extends to the possible use against the civil population of East Timor. We do not believe that an embargo on defence sales to Indonesia would be an appropriate or effective way of influencing the Indonesians to engage in better behaviour in the field of human rights.

Mr. Anthony Coombs : Irrespective of the regional importance of Indonesia, will my right hon. Friend confirm that originally--after colonial rule--Indonesia occupied East Timor by force and that throughout the past 15 years its record on human rights, regardless of Dili, has been quite deplorable? Will my right hon. Friend do all he can, through the United Nations and the European Communities, to ensure that the voice of East Timor is heard--either directly or, as has been offered, indirectly through the Vatican--in negotiations towards a constitutional solution to this very difficult problem?

Mr. Goodlad : My hon. Friend is quite right. Unlike a very large number of other countries, this country did not recognise Indonesia's annexation of East Timor. We continue to believe that the question of East Timor's status and future is best addressed through the auspices of the United Nation's Secretary-General and through contacts between Portugal and Indonesia, and we continue to encourage those concerned to pursue the dialogue in which they are engaging.

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