House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Feb 1993

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Alastair Burt) : Several representations have been received recentlyfrom both individuals and representative bodies.

Ms. Eagle : Is the Minister aware that the cost of a weekly place in a residential or nursing care home as calculated by his Department falls up to £50 short of the real cost? Can he comment on the fact that the Government's hope that the cost-care gap will be made up by charitable donations is pie in the sky, given both the scale and length of the recession and the fact that the National Lotteries Bill will reduce charitable income even more? What will the Government do to put payments for care places on a more secure footing?

Mr. Burt : I am sure that the hon. Lady will be pleased to know that expenditure on people in homes has increased enormously since 1979 from the £10 million spent then to £2.5 billion spent now. The last uprating increased the amount going into homes by over the rate of inflation--by about 3.6 per cent. The hon. Lady will

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appreciate that no Government can make a commitment to pay all the fees up to the full limit because that would lead to the abuse that there was before.

The amount of money spent by the Government on people receiving benefits in homes will stay at the level of commitment that we have now. The new system of community care will also ensure that that amount of money is best spent on domiciliary care, the independent sector or local authority care. I am sure that local authorities will administer the new system with the care with which it has been administered up to now.

Mr. Willetts : Is my hon. Friend aware that the main concern among private providers of residential accommodation in nursing homes is the risk of a vendetta by left-wing local authorities from 1 April, who, for purely ideological reasons, will refuse to finance the cost of accommodation in such homes?

Mr. Burt : My hon. Friend will be aware that matters relating to the registration of homes are the responsibility more of the Department of Health than of this Department, but I am aware of the concerns already expressed to Departments about such matters. The quality of care delivered to the elderly has been immeasurably increased over the past decade partly because of the quality of care in the independent sector, and the way in which that has increased and encouraged the delivery of quality care in the local authority sector. The quality of care given to elderly people by all providers is substantially better than it was a decade or 20 years ago.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Is the Minister aware that the Government have forced local authorities to get rid of their beds? The Government have put enormous pressure on people to go into private homes. There is a real fear that after 1 April many of the most damaged people will not be able to pay for their accommodation in the private sector because of the Government's actions and the lack of money available to local authorities. How does the Minister satisfy those people? There are many who are terrified of what will happen to their elderly, who in many instances are mentally handicapped.

Mr. Burt : Substantial resources have been placed into the community care system to cover situations such as those to which the hon. Lady has drawn attention. Before a new system comes into place, there are always concerns about what might happen on the actual day. We know that the amount of money put in and the degree of care exercised by local authorities will ensure, for the first time, that proper consideration is given to individual cases and all cases. This approach will ensure also that the available money is best spent to the benefit of everyone. I am sure that the hon. Lady would not want to return to a system where limited resources were poorly spent. I am convinced that the amount of money and the degree of care that will be exercised will ensure the success of the community care policy.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Citizens Charter

27. Mr. Hain : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress has been achieved in implementing the citizens charter.

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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. William Waldegrave) : We have made good progress in implementing the charter. More than90 per cent. of our initial commitments have been met or are in hand.

Mr. Hain : Will the Chancellor of the Duchy confirm that if the Government proceed with their plans to privatise Parcelforce and the Royal Mail sections of the Post Office, none of the quality of service, entitlements and obligations set out in the citizens charter will apply? Or was that the right hon. Gentleman's agenda all along?

Mr. Waldegrave : The hon. Gentleman, who is an expert in these matters, knows that no final decisions have been made. As in other private utilities, there is the regulator. The charter covers those utilities.

Ms. Mowlam : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that both he and the Prime Minister have emphasised, in relation to charters, the importance of prompt replies to correspondence? Goals have been set for British Telecom and British Gas, for example. What are the goals for the right hon. Gentleman's unit? I wrote on behalf of someone in Swanage, Dorset, and it took him two months to reply.

Mr. Waldegrave : I apologise for that--it was inadequate service. All Departments of State have published targets for answering their letters, and we should meet them.

Market Testing and Competitive Tendering

28. Mr. Congdon : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what measures he uses to assess the benefits of market testing and compulsory competitive tendering ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Waldegrave : In market testing, Departments assess savings in costs ; and improvements in quality, such as reliability and timeliness. They monitor how these benefits are delivered in practice.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is responsible for compulsory competitive tendering. The benefits of CCT are being assessed through a continuing programme of research commissioned by his Department.

Mr. Congdon : I welcome that answer. Given the success of the competitive tendering programme, especially in local government, will my right hon. Friend ensure that market testing in central Government delivers the savings that we desire?

Mr. Waldegrave : Yes, I can confirm that. I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased that when my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence recently announced what amounted to the saving of two regiments, he was able partly to attribute that to the savings that he has made in his Department as a result of market testing. That is a good example of market testing leading to proper savings.

Mr. Madden : What action are the Government taking to safeguard the confidence of taxpayers' records when sections of the Inland Revenue are privatised?

Mr. Waldegrave : Any privatisation in that Department or any other in which confidentiality is involved would need contracts to cover that. Major state secrets in the

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defence industry have been possessed by the private sector for generations, and there is no essential difference elsewhere.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Will my right hon. Friend join me in regretting the insensitivity of Labour-controlled Lancashire county council, which has bought six Mercedes tipper trucks at a time when many jobs are on the line at Leyland Daf, which produces extremely good--

Madam Speaker : Order. The Chancellor of the Duchy is not responsible for a local authority's purchasing policy.

Mr. Waldegrave : I believe that that is the correct judgment, Madam Speaker, as always.

I have to say that there are many things about Lancashire county council that my hon. Friend and I find surprising, perhaps not least the one that she has mentioned.

Compensation

29. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many charters contain provisions for compensation to be paid to members of the public.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of Public Service and Science (Mr. Robert Jackson) : All charters contain information about what tdo if things go wrong. Six charters contain provision for financial compensation. Those include the British Rail passengers charter and London Underground customers charter.

Mr. Bayley : Will the Minister give a firm guarantee that all the provisions of the BR passengers charter will apply to private sector train operators if the Government go ahead with privatisation, or will the private sector be let off the hook?

Mr. Jackson : The charter will apply to everyone who operates a service. Meanwhile, it applies to BR. The House should know that it is not simply a question of compensation for individuals, which the hon. Gentleman may have had in mind ; there is a provision under which fares are reduced in a particular area if the service to it is performing below standard.

Citizens Charter

30. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many citizens charters are now in place ; how many more are expected ; when these are expected ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Robert Jackson : We have published 30 charters, including the Ulsterbus charter launched today. We plan to publish at least 10 more in 1993. Those charters empower the consumers of public services, better enabling them to insist on good quality services and proper redress where things go wrong.

Mr. Greenway : Has my hon. Friend seen the interesting Fabian Society pamphlet by Margaret Hodge, the former Labour leader of Islington council, in which she welcomes the publication of local authority performance indicators such as those proposed in the citizens charter? Will he now consider extending the charters and strengthening them to ensure that they are effective for all citizens?

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Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to Margaret Hodge's pamphlet. A number of serious Labour leaders in local government are coming out in support of some of the Government's actions. Margaret Hodge said--and it is something that is not often supported by Labour Members :

"Most important, Government can insist that authorities submit their services to external validation They can insist on publishing outcomes and they can compare performance between authorities". That is the approach of the charter, the approach through local authority audit and the approach endorsed by Margaret Hodge, who has great experience of local government. It is an approach opposed by far too many Labour Members.

Mr. Stevenson : Does the Minister accept that, despite the citizens charter, many people who rely on the activities--or inactivities--of the Benefits Agency are suffering badly because of its inefficiency? Because of that serious problem, will the Minister undertake urgently to review the provision of compensation for those who are adversely affected by that inadequate service? Will he report to the House on that matter as quickly as possible?

Mr. Jackson : Like the hon. Gentleman, I heard the point made on that subject during Social Security questions earlier. A full apology was made for the circumstances surrounding disability living allowance. The position is improving and it will be put right. I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion about compensation.

Quangos

31. Mr. Elletson : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many non-departmental public bodies were in existence in (a) April 1991 and (b) April 1992 ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Waldegrave : There were 1,412 non-departmental public bodies in existence in April 1992 compared with 1,444 in April 1991. The April 1992 total is the lowest since the data were first collected in 1979.

Mr. Elletson : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his answer-- the fall in the figures is small, but welcome. Will he comment on the increase in the number of quangos that would have occurred under a Labour Government, especially in view of the Labour's plans for regional women's units and specialist--

Madam Speaker : Order. Not only is the hon. Gentleman's question out of order, it is hypothetical. If the hon. Gentleman has a substantive question that is in order, I shall take it.

Mr. Elletson : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that over the past year there has been a substantial fall in the number of quangos, which significantly would not have occurred under a Labour Government?

Mr. Waldegrave : As you decisively said, Madam Speaker, any reference to a Labour Government is indeed very hypothetical. My hon. Friend is entirely right : there has been a fall. There are now 800 fewer quangos than there were in 1979, and 100,000 fewer people are employed in them.

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Scientists

32. Mr. Mackinlay : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will take steps to discourage scientists trained in the United Kingdom from seeking work outside the EC.

Mr. Waldegrave : No. It would be wrong to do so. Science is international. The United Kingdom benefits from scientists coming here from other countries, and our own scientists benefit from experience overseas.

Mr. Mackinlay : Does the Chancellor of the Duchy realise that his reply is breathtaking in its complacency--and also unpatriotic? Is he not aware that 1,000 British scientists are allowed to work in the United States alone, and that a real gap exists--both in terms of the graduates who seek to work in research science, and in terms of our ability to maintain them? Is it not time that the Government ensured that proper rewards existed in this country to encourage scientists to stay here working and developing their skills? Should not the Government also ensure that a proper career structure exists for research scientists?

Mr. Waldegrave : The hon. Gentleman is getting a little carried away. The universities' own statistical records show that there has been a net inflow of scientists every year since 1983. There is a tiny movement either way : about 1 per cent. leave each year. If we hark back to the long -distant days of Labour government, we find that about 35 per cent. of those with PhDs left for the United States in the 1960s. The figure is now rather under 10 per cent.

As for my reply being unpatriotic, is the hon. Gentleman really saying that it was unpatriotic of Freeman Dyson to go and work at Cornell university with Feynman? That is madness.

Mr. Bowis : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay), who normally endears himself to the House, has looped the loop in his question? Does not Britain provide the world-- particularly the developing world--with a great benefit by sending its experts, especially its scientists, to help other countries to develop? Does it not also encourage young people to come to this country to train as scientists, and then to return to their own countries? Neither would be possible if my right hon. Friend listened seriously to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Waldegrave : My hon. Friend is right. All of us who spend our time going around university science departments welcome the fact that we hear many different accents from all over the world. Science is international. We are attracting as many scientists to this country as leave our shores--indeed, more. Of those who leave, the majority leave for short-term appointments and many subsequently return.

Dr. Moonie : It is very sad that the Chancellor of the Duchy fails to distinguish between going abroad voluntarily to expand one's career horizons, and being forced abroad by the grossly inadequate remuneration given to research scientists in this country and the utter failure to provide them with an adequate career structure. Would the right hon. Gentleman care to comment on figures produced by the Science and Engineering Research

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Council and the Medical Research Council over the past year, which show a 15 per cent. fall in the number of PhD awards?

Mr. Waldegrave : I would be the last to say that more cannot be done to encourage science careers in this country, and I hope that we shall present appropriate proposals. It is wrong, however, to adopt the broad- brush approach of saying that every scientist who leaves the country represents a setback, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not adopt such an approach.

Citizens Charter

33. Mr. Tracey : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when the next interdepartmental meeting on the citizens charter will be held ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Waldegrave : On Wednesday, under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Mr. Tracey : That is extremely good news. At the meeting, will my right hon. Friend ensure that standards of service and propriety in local government--particularly in Labour-controlled Lambeth council--are well examined?

Mr. Waldegrave : That might take up rather too much of our time. Others are interested in the matter, including the Audit Commission, which is right. That leads me to a natural development of my hon. Friend's point. Conservative Members welcome, for example, the Audit Commission's publication of comparative performance indicators for local authorities ; the Opposition have opposed them at every turn.

Ms. Abbott : Does the citizens charter offer any recourse to British Rail pensioners who, it seems, must stand by and watch the Government loot their pension funds to the tune of £4.25 billion, something about which those pensioners will, apparently, have no say?

Mr. Waldegrave : I do not think that the hon. Lady is right about that matter, but I shall write to her further.

Lady Olga Maitland : Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity at Wednesday's meeting to press for further publication of the league tables to ensure better services all round?

Mr. Waldegrave : My hon. Friend is entirely right. The Opposition, including their distinguished representative who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), always claim that they are in favour of open government, but whenever the question of the publication of information arises, such as the league tables on school information, they are against it.

Science In Higher Education

35. Mr. Miller : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he last met the chairman of the Higher Education Funding Council for England to discuss funding for science in higher education.

Mr. Jackson : My right hon. Friend has not recently met the distinguished chairman of the Higher Education Funding Council, but it so happens that I met the chief executive only a week last Friday.

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Mr. Miller : What steps does the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster intend to take to stop the long-term decline in science funding in universities? Does he acknowledge that the dual support system is under threat and that that will have an adverse effect on attracting industrial funds to our universities?

Mr. Jackson : The hon. Gentleman is mistaken to talk about a fall in funding. Support for higher education in England will rise by 7.3 per cent. in 1993-94, or 4.4 per cent. in real terms. The figure for Scotland is about the same and that for Wales is about 9 per cent. The hon. Gentleman says that the dual support system is in jeopardy. We do not accept that it is. Total funding for academic research through the dual support system is now above £1 billion. The HEFC has allocated £673 million for research 1992-93. Estimated expenditure in higher education institutions by the research councils--the other part of the dual support system--in the current financial year will be £367 million. These represent considerable increases in funding over recent years.

Citizens Charter

36. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at what age people become citizens for purpose of each charter promulgated by the Government.

Mr. Waldegrave : People of all ages can--and do--benefit from better quality services promoted by the citizens charter.

Mr. Hughes : That was not really the answer that I expected. The important issue, which I hope the Chancellor's Department will address--in conjunction, I assume, with the Home Office--is the ridiculous state in Britain whereby people come of age for different civic rights at different ages : some at 16, some at 17, some at 18 and some at 21. It would be much easier and much more in line with international practice to have a clear age of majority, which at the moment is meant to be 18, that applied to all civic rights and duties. Can the Chancellor look into that possibility and bring forward a proposal to that end?

Mr. Waldegrave : Every Member of this House will have his own views on that issue. I shall look into the matter. The difficulty is that I cannot imagine that anyone would welcome the age for any of those civic rights and duties going up. To bring the age down in certain respects would involve very controversial matters for the House. The hon. Gentleman has, however, raised a serious matter and I shall consider it.

Dr. Kim Howells : At what age might the patients of Wessex regional health authority be able to complain, through the citizens charter, about the fact that the health authority was ripped off for an undisclosed sum of between £23 million and £63 million of taxpayers' money to pay for a computer system that never worked and which made a lot of people rich?

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman should table a substantive question if he wishes to deal with a matter of that nature.

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Justices of the Peace

37. Mr. Bennett : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement about recruitment of justices of the peace in the duchy.

Mr. Waldegrave : The recruitment of justices in the duchy area follows the same pattern as in the remainder of the country. Advisory committees recommend suitable candidates after interviewing applicants and considering the balance of the bench, which takes into account age, profession, residence and political views. In this way we try to ensure that a bench broadly reflects the community that it serves.

Mr. Bennett : Does the Minister accept that my constituents, particularly those who live in the Reddish and Brinnington wards of Stockport, feel very aggrieved that the bench in Stockport does not reflect the social composition of the whole of Stockport but appears to reflect the membership of the Conservative party and of secret societies, such as the masons, rather than a proper cross section of the population? What is the Minister going to do to ensure that we have a judiciary on the bench represents the whole of the area that I represent?

Mr. Waldegrave : One of the things--and the hon. Gentleman has been helpful in this regard--is to bring forward more volunteers. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased that since he quite legitimately began pursuing the matter in 1988, the number of people from the Reddish and Brinnington wards has increased from five to 13. That is an improvement and balances the number from the

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Denton ward. We must get good candidates and we need the help of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) and all hon. Members in that regard.

Citizens Charter

39. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make it his policy to extend the citizens charter into the private sector.

Mr. Robert Jackson : The Government are pleased that so many private sector concerns are adopting the charter approach. However, I must emphasise that the purpose of the citizens charter is to raise the quality of service in the public sector where many customers have little choice about the services that they receive.

Mr. Banks : Yes, but if the Government are continually reducing the scope of the public sector through privatisation, surely the logic follows that the charters, which are mostly useless, should be extended into the private sector in respect of which hon. Members deal with a host of complaints. May I suggest that the Minister could start with a citizens charter for bank customers? Some customers have to face the most ridiculous charges imposed by greedy, grasping banks which, of course, are always looking to support the Conservative Government.

Mr. Jackson : The hon. Gentleman must make up his mind whether he agrees with his party's line on public ownership. I notice that he has been saying that the privatised bus and rail services would be absorbed back into the public sector. Some of us wonder how that squares with the commitment of the Leader of the Opposition to the proposition that ownership is irrelevant.

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