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matter now is the remarkable contradiction whereby a person complains about alleged discrimination while practising discrimination himself. As the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster said, the matter also raises major questions about the way in which Government appointments are made, which is also often discriminatory. However, that is a huge topic, and perhaps it is a topic for another day. 8.12 pm

Sir James Kilfedder (North Down) : As the first, and perhaps the only, hon. Member to do so, I welcome the Minister of State's announcement last week about the Government's spending plans for Northern Ireland for the coming three financial years, 1993 to 1996, involving a total of £23.1 billion.

Of course, I could ask for more money. I have many projects in mind which are dear to my heart and which I should like to see implemented in Northern Ireland. Many problems in Northern Ireland could be rectified easily and quickly by an influx of money. None the less, it is right and proper to express appreciation of that total amount of money. I am sure that many people in other parts of the United Kingdom would say that Northern Ireland was getting a fair crack of the whip, but there are exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland which require exceptional treatment. I have pointed out those factors in previous debates on appropriation, and some of them have been touched upon today.

The publication of the report entitled "Expenditure Plans and Priorities for Northern Ireland" was intended

"to let the public know how we intend to spend these substantial resources and what we hope to achieve over the next three years". The public--I use the word which appeared in the report--certainly have a right to know, but the matter should not stop there. Once a sum of money has been allocated to the Province, the people of Northern Ireland, through their elected representatives, should have the right to decide how taxpayers' money should be allocated between the various Government Departments and regions, and to choose the priorities to be adopted in Northern Ireland.

It is ludicrous that Ulster Members of Parliament have only this relatively short debate twice a year to discuss the Northern Ireland economy and all branches of the Northern Ireland administration. I shall not repeat what has been said already, but I accept what the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) and others have said about the nature of the issue and the need for a proper structured debate. Indeed, I believe that such matters can be properly discussed and examined, at least to start with, only by a Select Committee which could call witnesses and experts and undertake examinations of civil servants and Ministers.

After all, this is the Northern Ireland budget. The Budget for the rest of the United Kingdom is given plenty of time in the House, and we need a proper way of examining Northern Ireland's finances. It is important that Northern Ireland Members of Parliament should be given the opportunity fully to scrutinise Government expenditure and to probe Government policies. Only through the closest possible examination can we establish a degree of democratic responsibility. Again, I shall not refer to what has already been said about the fact that the administration in Northern Ireland lacks the full democratic element which exists in the rest of the United Kingdom.

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The new figure for unemployment in Northern Ireland is, I believe, 108,009. That is a tragedy for so many people in the Province. Those are human beings and they deserve our compassion. They are men and women, husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, and sons and daughters, all of whom are out of work and seeking jobs. I say that most of them are seeking jobs. In Northern Ireland, as in other parts of the United Kingdom and throughout the world, there may be people who do not want to work and who are prepared to live on public money, but the unemployed people whom I know and who come to see me desperately need jobs. There are people with great skills or who have been to university yet cannot find a job, and other people who have left school and are seeking employment. Those young people leave their schools full of hope, idealism and ambition. They have every right to feel ambitious--yet they face an almost permanent place in the dole queue.

What applies to young people applies also to the man who expects to be the breadwinner for his family. He is demoralised and robbed of his dignity by being jobless. More must be done to deal with the dreadful situation of the unemployed. Unemployment is a terrible scourge. We must recognise that and, once we have done so, more must be done to remedy it.

I am thinking about unemployment throughout Northern Ireland, and I sympathise with anyone who is out of work, but I am thinking in particular about the unemployed people in my constituency of North Down. The Government and the Industrial Development Board seem to regard North Down as an affluent area which does not require special measures or efforts. I fear that Northern Ireland Office Ministers and senior officials move only among professional people and people with considerable wealth.

Without actually looking at him, I can sense that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley), who is sitting beside me, is shaking his head. However, I have not yet heard of any Minister or senior civil servant, or any senior member of the IDB or of anything else, calling in at what in England would be called working class homes--we do not have those class divisions in Northern Ireland, thank God. I have not heard of any such person coming to Kilcooley or any other estate. I should be delighted if any of my hon. Friends knew of anyone who had called in, not as a response to an invitation but just to have a cup of tea, a spot of lunch or some fish and chips.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : I would not want to disagree entirely with my hon. Friend, but I am sure that he would agree that many people in the Northern Ireland civil service and officials from various Departments spend a lot of time with ordinary people--many of them might be called ordinary people themselves--but his admonition to people like me, former Ministers, that we should meet local people more often could be accepted.

Sir James Kilfedder : I am glad that my hon. Friend agrees with me about the need for closer contact with ordinary people, most of whom have problems of one kind or another. It is good to have contact with them. I do not believe that I could be an adequate Member of Parliament unless I talked constantly to people of all varieties throughout my constituency and spent time calling in at their houses or meeting them at my surgery.

I could take Ministers to areas in my constituency, Bangor, Holywood, Dundonald and other parts, where

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the young and the old are frustrated by their long-term unemployment. In the press release issued today the Minister of State said :

"It is also very encouraging that, despite these recessionary times, Northern Ireland continues to attract large inward investment projects."

I am sure that the Minister did not intend to give a false impression of the Northern Ireland economy, but I do not accept that it continues to attract large inward investment projects. There is a desperate need for more investment in my constituency. If we are to witness a fierce attack on the deplorable dole queues, the Government must take more strenuous steps to encourage potential investors and industrialists to establish new manufacturing industries in the Province. We certainly need them in North Down, which has a large population and a tremendous number of people out of work. More must be done to bring industry there. The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) also said that new industries were needed in his area. We need to mobilise the entire community in a radical campaign to revitalise the economy and to provide the jobs which are desperately needed. I accept that Ulster is suffering bitterly from a terrorist campaign that has lasted 23 years. Those terrorists not only slaughter innocent people and mutilate tens of thousands of others, but seek to destroy the Northern Ireland economy. I also accept that Northern Ireland is suffering from the recession in common with every other part of the United Kingdom and certain regions in the world. That recession continues to bite deeply in Northern Ireland. However, we must not allow either terrorism or the recession to provide a feeble excuse for a listless economy and a record number of unemployed.

Some years ago, in a similar debate on a Northern Ireland appropriation order, I offered to travel anywhere in the world with Ministers--that is offering something--and Opposition representatives to win investment and orders for Northern Ireland. I repeat that offer now. We must do more to bring industry and investment to Northern Ireland. We must do more to provide jobs for those who are desperately in need of work.

I remind the Minister that my constituency is composed of marvellous people with great skills and talents. We have schools and colleges that are among the best in Northern Ireland. Those people have a major contribution to make and it is a tragedy that their talents are being wasted. I am biased, but I think that the North Down area provides an ideal place for anyone who wishes to set up a light industry, particularly one that uses high technology. The local people have the ability and, if not, they can be trained to obtain the necessary skills. Anyone who comes to North Down is thrilled by the beauty of the area, which is washed by the blue waters of the Irish sea.

I have the impression that the IDB largely ignores the merits of North Down and, sadly, encourages industrialists to go elsewhere in the Province. That impression is shared by many others in my constituency. There also seems to be a reluctance on the part of the IDB to provide more finance to enable existing firms in North Down to expand and thus to provide more jobs.

I hope that the Minister will accept my invitation to meet a group of business people in my constituency. If the Government worked with them, it would be possible to galvanise the local economy to attract investment, new

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companies and more jobs. The local business men are not concerned about politics, so they are not competing for votes. That is their great merit. Like me, they wish to see business expansion and more jobs for the jobless. I plead with the Minister : let us show compassion for the jobless and let us engage in a drive which will bring employment and investment to Northern Ireland.

My other plea to the Minister relates to the great problem affecting shop owners in Bangor. The local chamber of commerce and the National Association of Shopkeepers have raised with me the unacceptable loss of income suffered by shop owners in the borough as a result of road works which have been undertaken in the past 12 months. Those works seem to me to have been going on for far longer than a year. The pavements and roads were dug up and traffic was restricted and diverted. Those difficulties lasted for a long time. Everyone accepts the need for road improvements and pavement renewal--that is the price of progress--but local shopkeepers in Main street and High street, Bangor, and in the adjoining roads and streets, should not be penalised. They pay large sums of money in rates-- one might almost say that they are subject to exorbitant rates demands--and their rents are also reviewed upwards all the time. Many of the local shops are facing great difficulties already, and on top of all that they were faced with the impossible trading conditions created by the DOE road works scheme, which drove many customers from their doors. As a result, they have lost a great deal of money. The heart of Bangor could end up being composed of insurance companies, banks, estate agents, building societies and similar businesses, which will not be so beneficial to the local people or those who visit Bangor. That would be disastrous for the heart of Bangor, and I urge the Minister to consider the plea that I am conveying to him on behalf of shop owners. In view of the work which has lasted so long and the tremendous losses that traders have suffered, the full amount of rates should be reimbursed for the period in question. Justice certainly demands that, and I demand it in the name of all the shopkeepers.

I request the Minister to come to Bangor. I know that he has been there many times. I know that he likes the place and its people--and the people like him. I appeal to him to come and meet representatives of the chamber of commerce, who will produce documentary evidence in support of that loss. When he is there, he can come to my home and meet the ordinary people of North Down.

8.30 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South) : I support the remarks of the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) about the need for Ministers to meet the ordinary people of Northern Ireland. The last Minister that I recall visiting ordinary people in my constituency was the present Governor of Hong Kong, who came to the Annadale estate.

We in Northern Ireland have reached the position when a civil servant may advise us the day before, or even the morning of, an event that a Minister will be in our constituency. I am not sure whether civil servants expect us to be in a position to join the Minister at such short notice. Or are they just fulfilling all righteousness? I am sure that

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more courtesy is shown to hon. Members who represent other constituencies and that they are given more warning to enable them to be present with the Minister.

I suppose that it is all part of civil servants trying to corral Ministers. I recall a Minister visiting a part of south Belfast and making a promise to the residents. His advisers thereafter tried to rescue him from that promise. Indeed, they assured me that he had not given it. Those who were there at the time still believe that he gave it, but as I was not present, I cannot make an objective comment one way or the other.

Reference has been made to the nature of today's debate. The tragedy is that that mentality--of not extending to us the courtesy that hon. Members generally expect--has reduced those of us who represent Northern Ireland constituencies to the local council level. In short, we are not treated in the same way as Ministers treat other hon. Members.

As the debate has proceeded, I have been thinking that we are rather in the position of doctors in their surgeries. They are made aware of only the complaints and, in the main, meet people with problems. Hon. Members are in the same position, even though out there in the healthy world are constituents happy enough with what is happening in their lives. It is the nature of the game that, as we examine the situation, we bring problems into the open.

I should not like the debate to pass without tribute being paid to some of the excellent work that has been done in recent years by the more energetic Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office. I say that because there is a tendency on the part of some people to paint Northern Ireland so black that when people visit us they are utterly amazed to discover what a marvellous place it is. Indeed, I regret to say that public representatives sometimes join television people and others from the media and give a distorted picture of the Province. Fortunately, far more good things than bad are going on there. I recall on one occasion being in the United States and being asked, "What is it like to live there?" I replied, "Not any worse than living in the lovely bay area of San Francisco, where 27 murders took place last weekend." We sometimes get the position out of proportion.

Even so, we are concerned about accountable democracy, and it is difficult to hold in one's head the various items in the Minister's statement as he glossed over the sweep of the order before the House and the sums being granted for the ensuing year. I was reminded of the occasion when, with others representing various parties in Northern Ireland, he briefed us on public expenditure issues. I asked at the time what would happen at the year end if there was a surplus. I was assured that there never was a surplus and that all the money was always spent.

Having been the chairman of the Northern Ireland finance committee at the time of the assembly, I was aware that that was not altogether true. To my utter amazement, I found on reading the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General that in the last year for which figures are available, 1991 -92, there was an underspend of about £50 million, which was returned to the Consolidated Fund. I could not understand how it could be said that we had spent all the money at a time when, for example, a decision had been taken in principle to resite a new hospital on a green-field site in Coleraine. We had been urging that that resiting should be done in stages. About £12 million of underspend, according to my

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reading of the accounts, could have been used for that purpose. We live in an era of creative accountancy. Accountants and auditors, when drawing up reports and balance sheets, manage to obscure rather than reveal. One must be well-informed to find one's way through one of their labyrinthine reports. I hope that I have not misread the report to which I referred. If I have, the Minister will correct me. It seems wrong that when there is such a pressing need in the area of the Northern board area, some of that money cannot be spent on that project in Coleraine. After all, the plan is available and there is no question of having to start from scratch.

The Department of the Environment's vote 1 refers to money spent on parking. What is the state of play in the Department concerning residents' parking? Since 1983 I have been pressing for action on that front, but the only response I have received is to the effect that legislation to enable parking to be provided for residents is not available. I have said that, being the responsible Department, it should initiate the necessary legislation. The only answer I have been given is that the situation is more difficult than that. I have constantly said that if legislation is available for residents's parking in England, it should be available in Northern Ireland. Eventually I was told that the Department had four pilot schemes in hand. Interestingly, they were supposed to be in south Belfast. I can appreciate why they might have been there. I gathered that one was to have been in east Belfast, but I could not understand why it should be in the area proposed when we were attempting to deal with traffic congestion.

If they were to have been in south Belfast in Stranmillis, Pakenham street and Joy street, those familiar with the area would have accepted that pilot schemes there would be worth while. But I could not comprehend why a scheme should be conducted in the Short Strand, in east Belfast, unless there was a particular section of overcrowding in the Short Strand area which was unknown to anybody else. What is the present position? The latest rumour is that no pilot schemes are being held and that the Department is not continuing its examination of residents' parking.

While I welcome, under that vote, the widening of roads and the belated upgrading of highways, I remember the words of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, who told me many years ago, "I have always told the Dublin Government that if they are that interested in a united Ireland, they should improve the road from Dublin to Belfast." I cannot understand why the Department is pouring so much money into the stretch of road south of Newry, creating a bottleneck in the Irish Republic, when money is urgently needed to upgrade the Larne road.

Ministers have told us that the CBI has been pressing for the upgrading of the Dublin road. The CBI and business people and some outside Northern Ireland have argued that the number one priority is the upgrading of the Belfast to Larne motorway. Even a dual carriageway would be a decided advantage.

Looking at vote 2 of the Department of the Environment, I ask whether it is not within the terms of grants for the upgrading of houses that occupiers, tenants, have a right to these grants. Or have restrictions been imposed so that only owners can get grants? An 80-year-old woman who has lived in her home for 40 or 50 years has been told that since she is only the occupier and not the owner she is not eligible for a grant to improve her home.

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In the context of awareness of problems that have arisen constantly over decisions made without thinking through to the ultimate impact, may I raise with the Minister the question of the buy-back scheme? We are thankful that it was introduced and it obviously met with greater success in Northern Ireland than was expected, but I have pensioner constituents who saw the scheme advertised, and got in touch with the Housing Executive straight away. Their own estate agent was also in touch. The house was examined and surveyed and a price agreed. In the light of that agreement, a verbal understanding, all that was needed was for contracts to be signed. They went ahead with the purchase of a retirement home in North Down that suited them. Then their hopes were shattered when they were told "We are not buying your property", on the ground, I am told, that having met such demands on the scheme, the Housing Executive introduced a rationing scheme for the various areas of Northern Ireland and said that it was not going to purchase more than two homes in that area of my constituency. It seems to me that, even in this world of lowered moral standards, a man's word should be his bond and that a Government Department that gives a verbal understanding to purchase should not quibble because there is no written contract.

In vote 4, there is an amount of £141,000 shown as savings, a decrease. Why was that money not used to upgrade some of the unadopted rear entries which are a blight upon the environment? It is near time that we grappled with that problem. I recognise that it is a big problem, but we shall not tackle a big problem unless we start on it and I trust that where there is money of that nature available it will be used purposefully.

I welcome the increase that has been set aside under the health and social services heading but we need more understanding of where it is going. Under vote 1, how much has been spent on Project 2000 in Northern Ireland? I have seen the figures for England and Wales and I know that it is moving forward in Northern Ireland, but I have not yet discovered whether it is moving forward successfully or how much money is being spent. I recognise that there is a case for closing some units and cutting out wastage. I regret that the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) is not here at present. I realise why that is, but he referred to the closure of the wards for mental patients in the Tyrone county hospital. I remember visiting that hospital and I pay tribute to the work that is done there. I also remember that a member of the local committee who had a child with mental health problems said to me "It is a pity that they did not let you see the locked up ward." I am delighted to see more and more people moved out into smaller units in the community rather than being locked up in some of these larger institutions.

If a building is not being properly used for something else, it is a detriment to the community, but not necessarily a detriment to those who have been in those institutions in the past.

May I ask the Minister on what objective grounds the Department directed a health board to go in a particular direction when it had had consultation and obstetricians and others had agreed with a system of maternity provision that would have allowed the maternity unit to continue in Downpatrick and would see the Jubilee being

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the main centre in Belfast. Now Downpatrick is to be closed and the Eastern board has said that it will not purchase services from the Jubilee hospital. About 1,200 babies born to mothers from south Belfast were delivered in the Jubilee last year. The Jubilee has had a proud record, not only of care and quality of provision but of cost. To close that hospital will necessitate spending capital money in upgrading facilities elsewhere. When one considers the length of time to travel, not just from Downpatrick but from Kilkeel, Newcastle and South Down right up to the nearest provision, which is now being mentioned as Lagan Valley--and I realise that I am on dangerous ground here since my right hon. Friend represents Lagan Valley--one realises that it is not the proper use of scarce capital to close an institution eight miles down the road and scatter the patients elsewhere. I would go further and say that it seems to be a monstrosity for a senior official--as I mentioned in Question Time today--to spend the past three years trying to dissuade GPs from going under the Jubilee hospital.

As some right hon. and hon. Members will recall, I have raised this matter in the past. The board denied that it had happened, but I said on that occasion that the people to whom it was said and the person about whom it was said knew who was telling lies. I now have definite evidence that a senior member of the board dealing with public health was going round general practitioners trying to dissuade them from going near the Jubilee hospital. Thank God that those GPs were wiser than that man. The women in east Belfast, certainly those in the city centre and over towards Cregagh and many from Antrim, still choose to come to one of the finest places of maternity provision in the United Kingdom. I hope that the Department and the board will have second thoughts.

I know that it is possible I shall be told that it is a matter for the board, but since he who pays the piper calls the tune, it is the responsibility of the Department. Why was the general manager of the Eastern health and social services board who was retiring and had consultancy lined up in Europe appointed for a further two years? Is it because, as someone put it to me, he has a job to do : to close units in the Royal and the City, to maintain the Mater because of his own position in the Knights of Columbanus?

Reference has been made to cardiac surgery. The Minister knows that I have been concerned about it for a long time. I was amazed this week to discover in the Park-Davis survey that Northern Ireland is not as high on the list of areas in need of such surgery as we were led to believe. I understand, of course, that there is a problem in Northern Ireland, but it lies in fifth place in the league behind Wales, Scotland--that is certainly in first position--and sections of northern England. Are we tackling the problem in the right way? Does the problem go beyond the lack of theatre space, which has been extended? Has it something to do with the promotional pattern in the Royal Victoria hospital and the unwillingness of senior registrars to work in the department? I understand that one such registrar moved to England and was appointed as a surgeon in Newcastle. We must ask these questions because too many people in Northern Ireland have been waiting far too long for cardiac surgery. If there is a problem, it should be tackled.

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I hope that trusts will not remove choice and forestall the right of general practitioners to purchase provision where they believe that they can get the best service at the best price.

I pay tribute to the allocation of funds to the Independent Living Foundation. Where does the Department stand in following through the attempts made to have an extension of the Peto institute in Northern Ireland? How far has it been funding Donaghadee? Is it prepared to fund Dungannon, or is it putting most of its backing into the Rapid Action for Conductive Education movement in Birmingham? The people in Northern Ireland have worked hard to promote conductive education and I trust that the Department will at last give them purposeful backing.

8.52 pm

Mr. A. Cecil Walker (Belfast, North) : I am sure that the Minister is aware of the recent television programme about the exodus of Protestants from north Belfast. The programme was fairly factual in presenting many aspects of the problem, but the main issue was not addressed, which is the lack of decent houses in Protestant areas for Protestant people.

Before commenting further, I wish to make it clear that I am not drawing comparisons with the Catholic constituents. Instead, I congratulate them on their efforts to attain excellent housing in many areas of my constituency and on their accomplishments in being fully consulted by their various community groups on the design and construction of their new houses. A development that immediately springs to mind is the Unity flats complex, which demonstrates up-to-date designs with the use of excellent materials.

I am not laying the blame directly on the Housing Executive, which must work with criteria laid down by the Government which do not address the problem of Protestants being forced to vacate houses which are, to say the least, not fit to live in. It is necessary to examine the reasons for the exodus, which vary widely according to areas. I know that the Minister has some knowledge of the deprivation in the areas about which I am talking. He has promised to visit one of them in the near future. I know that he has a busy schedule, but I suggest that he should visit others, where he will see the problems for himself.

In the Duncairn-Tiger's Bay area--thanks to the efforts of the Minister's predecessor--an encompassing development has been planned, which embraces housing, industrial development and social needs. Unfortunately, there have been problems in reaching a consensus. I appeal for urgent action to get the new housing started in an attempt to halt the drift of population from housing which no longer serves its purpose. It has fallen into disrepair and is of an unacceptable standard.

The area of Downview on the Antrim road also needs urgent attention. There are old Orlit houses that were the subject of the housing defects order. They have deteriorated to such an extent that they are now referred to as the Downview slums. Many of them are being blocked up as the tenants cannot live in them. Other occupiers are waiting to get out at the first opportunity. A decision has not yet been taken to replace them.

Just off the main Crumlin road in the area of Rosewood street, Yarrow street and Albertville drive there were excellent brick-built terrace houses which have been

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allowed to fall into disrepair. I have been endeavouring since 1983 to have these houses declared a housing action area project. There have been numerous appraisals amounting to nothing. In the meantime, the occupants have been forced to move, leaving the area semi- derelict.

Across the Crumlin road into the mid-Shankill area there has been a redevelopment programme, but it progressed at such a slow pace that it was impossible to retain the population. Consequently, phases planned for future development have been cancelled and the area has been sown with grass seed. It is prime housing land, but it is not being developed for much-needed housing, despite a waiting list in the area which will never be met.

Further up into the Woodvale-Ohio street-Enfield area there have been blighted housing conditions for the past 15 years. There was a reticence to do anything in the area. Responsibility was abrogated by declaring it to be a priority investment zone. There was, of course, no investment because of the conditions. Again, the Protestant population was forced to move out.

Another Protestant estate is situated in Glencairn. It was a jerry-built estate thrown up by cowboy contractors. The estate has suffered from that legacy ever since. The active community association has been vainly trying to have the estate upgraded, with the demolition of vacant maisonettes which have decayed to such an extent that the entire area is being brought into disrepute. It is another example of a reluctance or failure to provide basic living conditions.

The area of Alliance-Glenbryn has been allowed to fall into such disrepair that it is now almost a shell. There has been some effort to rehabilitate it, but that is not a solution. The area will have to be completely redeveloped if it is to be saved and if people are to be encouraged to return.

Many other areas in Protestant north Belfast will also require a sustained effort if they are to be saved, notably the Tyndale and Silverstream areas.

The Housing Executive cannot cope within its limited budget. Government funding will have to be specifically allocated to these areas if the exodus of Protestants is to be halted. Statutory agencies will also have to play a very large part in this process, as amenities will have to be provided to make for a balanced community at peace with itself.

In conclusion, I must draw attention to the terrible lack of employment opportunity in my constituency. I appeal for more enterprise zones to be declared. There are many deprived areas which could be used for this purpose and could provide local jobs for local people.

8.59 pm

Mr. Clifford Forsythe (Antrim, South) : I will continue the litany of complaints that we have heard this evening. Unfortunately, this is the only forum in which we can bring them before Ministers, apart from writing to them or seeing them in our constituencies. I will start with DOE vote 1 and refer to something that has to do with my own constituency, but also with the unemployment levels that other hon. Members have mentioned.

Can the Minister tell us why the Coopers and Lybrand report which was asked for by the Northern Ireland airport is to be kept secret, not only from those who are to be made redundant, but also from the trade union

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representatives, and certainly from representatives of the public? If the reason is that it is a business tool, covered by business confidentiality, I foresee some difficulties in future if a trade sale, for instance, or a worker-management buy-out is considered for the airport. Where would that place certain employees of the airport? If it is covered by business confidentiality, surely there is some morality attached to it if some people have inside information and others have not.

Of course, if the airport is to be privatised--we do not agree that it should be, but believe that it should remain within the scope of the people of Northern Ireland--the only way to do it is by a share issue, which would allow all the people of Northern Ireland to have some say in the matter, considering all the public money that has been spent obtaining the international airport.

Will the Minister say why consultations with the work force did not take place before the announcement of the redundancies? It is not very good business practice to announce redundancies and then offer the work force opportunities to discuss matters that have already been decided. That is not consultation. Surely consultation should have taken place beforehand. Many workers at the airport will be made redundant, for whatever reason, on the basis of a report which no one is allowed to see. That is a very poor reward for those employees who have worked hard, given excellent service and been very loyal in difficult circumstances over many years.

On the Department of Social Security vote 4, I draw the Minister's attention to a problem which seems to have arisen in connection with housing benefit. When someone who is homeless applies to the Housing Executive to be housed, the applicant is told that his application cannot be accepted unless he gives an address. The Minister may think that it peculiar that someone who is homeless should be asked for an address, but that is the case.

This creates a problem for housing benefit, because, if an applicant gives an address and the occupier of that address is receiving DSS benefit, the person who has applied from that address simply to get on the housing list is reckoned to be living with the occupier, even though he or she is not doing so. Usually it is an accommodation address. Therefore, the housing benefit of the person who occupies the dwelling may be reduced by about £14 per week. That leaves the homeless in difficulty. They cannot apply for housing because they have not got an address, and they cannot make use of a friend's address because that affects the benefit which that person receives. The Minister should consider that carefully.

Like the rest of the United Kingdom, we have many problems with the disability living allowance. I congratulate the staff of the Department of Social Security, particularly those in the district offices who deal considerately with those applying for benefit. Leaving that on one side, there have been delays in Northern Ireland, as there have in the rest of the United Kingdom.

The forms are complicated. Applicants are so confused that they have no chance of getting benefit because of the way they complete the forms. As a member of the Select Committee on Social Services, I have said that it might be better if the box on the form about the need for assistance was at the end rather than the beginning. By the time

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people had gone through the form, they might realise that they needed help. Completing the form is as difficult for some people as voting by proportional representation.

It should be suggested to the director of the agency that Northern Ireland Members of Parliament have the use of a hotline to facilitate them in solving problems with the disability allowance, as is the case in the rest of the United Kingdom. When the Select Committee visited Blackpool, I was pleased to see that facility there. The position on the social fund has not changed. When people in receipt of benefit have not got enough money to live on and are obliged to take a loan from the DSS to overcome their difficulties, a deduction is made from their benefit. The result is that they have even less to live on. Some people may say that money is not available to provide more benefit. Unfortunately, those in difficulty turn to money lenders who charge high interest rates. Then the people turn to drugs or drink and end up in a much worse position.

On my favourite subject, planning, which is covered by vote 4 of the Department of the Environment, advice from local councillors seems to be ignored completely. In some cases exactly the opposite is carried out.

There are numerous inconsistencies in the attitude of the roads service to planning applications. Often, when there is no other impediment to the granting of permission, the roads service, for no apparent reason, expresses vehement opposition. On the other hand, it often seems that a plan to build a house on a corner, where no one else thinks a house should be allowed, is not objected to by the service.

I should like to refer to the agriculture condition that is sometimes attached to planning permission. Like most of my colleagues, I am a supporter of the farming community. However, I have to say that, in respect of planning permission, that community seems to have an advantage over everyone else.

Let us suppose that a farmer has lived in an area for 60 years and that a plumber has lived just down the road for the same length of time. When the farmer retires, he can secure planning permission for a retirement dwelling on the farm. The plumber is not in that happy position.

I have often complained about this. The Department ought to look at the entire matter of the agriculture condition. It is quite clear that we shall have white elephants throughout the countryside if such dwellings become vacant. Indeed, there are some already. Because of the agriculture condition, no one else is allowed to live in such a dwelling. Unfortunately, the standards that apply differ from area to area.

Diversification of land use is one aspect of planning law that applies to the rest of the United Kingdom but does not seem to apply to Northern Ireland. A farmer and his family who are not doing so well may wish to open a farm shop or some other establishment connected with farming. Such a facility would be of service to the community, and people who make inquiries are encouraged by the planning service to apply for permission. However, the application is turned down out of hand.

At the same time, we all know of developments that do not appear to fulfil the conditions or have planning permission. It appears that people who defy the planning service are okay if they have sufficient finance to take on the authorities, but things are very different for an ordinary applicant. If such a person fails to satisfy one condition in respect of permission to build a bungalow, the

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Department takes him as far as it can. I agree with what the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) said about local knowledge being ignored by the Planning Appeals Commission. Surely local people are in a position to assist planners.

I said that planning is one of my favourite subjects, but my real favourite is quangos. Will the Minister, under the citizens charter, publish the names on the standing list for appointment to quangos? We know that there is such a list and we know some of the people on it, because they are serving on quangos. All Northern Ireland representatives are well known because they are elected, and the names of those on the list should be made public so that everybody knows who they are. If all was above board in that way, it would be more acceptable.

Rev. William McCrea : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is only natural that the community should know who is making the decisions? The quangos are certainly making major decisions affecting the people of Northern Ireland, but the names of those who serve on them are not well known, and are often hidden.

Mr. Forsythe : I agree. I shall make a few other remarks in agreement with what the hon. Gentleman has said. Before I do, I ask the Minister to make available the names of those who have been released by their firms to serve on quangos and whose firms are then recompensed for the loss of their services. That is possible, for example, in the case of the tourist board. I should be interested to hear how much money has been spent in that way.

Will the Minister also provide us with the names of those who have dual membership--those who serve on more than one quango and those who have moved from ordinary membership to chairmanship, or from chairmanship to ordinary membership? That would also be interesting. There is also the prickly question of those who have been appointed to quangos specifically with Dublin approval. I know that Dublin approval is given under the Anglo- Irish Agreement. I hope that, in the interests of openness, the Minister will make available the names of such persons.

Mr. Peter Robinson : Will the hon. Gentleman rephrase his question so that the Minister cannot avoid answering it? What is written into the Anglo-Irish Agreement is that the Government of the Irish Republic can make proposals for any of the quangos. The hon. Gentleman might like to ask the Minister to list all those who have been proposed by Dublin for each quango, and those who have been accepted.

Mr. Forsythe : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. I am always prepared to take advice, and I do so on this occasion. I am sure that the Minister heard the hon. Gentleman's question, which I now put to him.

The membership of quangos is a great bone of contention in Northern Ireland. The Minister may say that that is just a bee in the bonnet of some Northern Ireland Members, but that is not the case. We have to listen to complaints from our constituents. It is terrible that bodies consisting of members who are not elected but appointed, sometimes on recommendation from outside the United Kingdom, are handling 10 times more money and employing 10 times more people than the councillors who are elected every four years. It is dreadful that quangos

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undergo no detailed scrutiny of any part of their operations. It is another shot in the locker for the Northern Ireland Select Committee. Even in that instance, a Select Committee would do a very good job.

Mr. William Ross : Perhaps my hon. Friend should also ask the Minister how the quangos are divided up on religious and political grounds. Whenever members of quangos are appointed in Great Britain, considerable information is given about their political affiliation. Surely the same information should be given in Northern Ireland. Because of the Fair Employment Commission, we should like to be assured that Ulster Unionists and members of the DUP were getting a fair crack of the whip. Perhaps we should be told how many members of those parties have been appointed.

Mr. Forsythe : I agree with my hon. Friend. We could ask for a great deal of information about quangos. The best solution could be not to have any quangos ; then we might get on a lot better. But that is not quite true. Perhaps we should not malign those who have served well on them, although we disagree with the quangos.

I ask the Minister to pass on to his hon. Friend my congratulations on finally getting the Killead bypass on to this year's roads programme. Of course I am disappointed that the roads are not being improved in other parts of Northern Ireland. Perhaps I could be forgiven for mentioning the A26, which involves not only my constituency but getting patients from other constituencies to the new area hospital in Antrim. It is an essential road. It is most unfortunate that the road between Corrs Corner and the port of Larne is not in the programme. The work should have been done as soon as possible, to facilitate the journeys of the many people who travel through that port. Belfast and Larne complement each other, and I am sure that the people living in both of those ports would be happy to see them working fully all the time.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no overall strategy in the roads programme, as many hon. Members have said. One gets the impression that, if representatives of one particular roads section hammer the table, they will have more success during negotiations at a higher level for that area. I do not think that is the way to proceed. Surely it would have made much more sense for local councils to be responsible for repairing holes in the roads, street lights and drains, and for sweeping and repairing the footpaths. I suppose that we live in hope.

Water privatisation, which is right up my street--or perhaps that I should say, in my tool bag--is an unbelievable development. I know that the Community is setting water quality standards, but high-quality water is the one resource available to all citizens in Northern Ireland. It is one that they do not even think about, because it is always there. The long tradition of excellent service by the Northern Ireland water industry is well known. It goes back to the old days of the Belfast water commissioners, who were the standard bearers--and they could serve as an example to the rest of the United Kingdom.

In Northern Ireland, plumbers used to be registered. The rest of the United Kingdom never had that system. Unfortunately, when there was change, and Northern Ireland came under direct rule, plumbers no longer had to be registered. That was a great step back. There is no life

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