House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Feb 1993

Tourism

15. Mr. Robert Banks : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what was the number of visitors to the United Kingdom through organised tours during 1992.

Mr. Key : Latest figures from the international passenger survey show that there were 1,202,000 visits to the United Kingdom by holidaymakers on marketed package holidays in the first half of 1992--54 per cent. more than in the first half of 1991. They represented 36 per cent. of overseas holiday visits and 15 per cent. of all overseas visitors.

Mr. Banks : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Bearing in mind that millions of people from this country take package holidays and tours overseas, will he take steps to ensure that there is proper co- ordination in this country between hoteliers and those responsible for resorts and facilities so that we may attract visitors on package holidays? To that end, will he ensure that the

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British Tourist Authority has the marketing funds available, adjusted for the devaluation of the pound, so that the number of visitors to this country is maintained?

Mr. Key : Just as important as the British Tourist Authority doing its work abroad--which it does magnificently, whatever the vagaries of the pound--is the necessity to ensure that this country has the facilities to receive package holiday visitors. The organisations concerned are making rapid progress on co-ordination, and individual resorts and destinations, including my hon. Friend's constituency of Harrogate, are blazing a trail in that respect by their approach to joint marketing strategies.

Private Funding

16. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what progress he is making in raising private funds for support of heritage and the arts.

Mr. Brooke : There has been a remarkable increase in private sector support for the arts, from less than £600,000 in 1976 to more than £65 million last year. Our business sponsorship incentive scheme has itself attracted almost £40 million since its inception in 1984. English Heritage is also making good progress in promoting private sector funding.

Mr. Banks : Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that the effect of the recession is such that many companies now find themselves unable to put into arts and heritage the money that they previously put in, and will he look into this? As he was clearly not over-enthusiastic about my idea of raising money through sponsorship of the royal family, will he look carefully at the recent suggestion by one of the timeshare experts that up to £100 million could be raised by using one of the royal palaces for timeshare? If he is looking for extra money, Trusthouse Forte and Holiday Inns would probably be interested in buying one of the palaces, which are clearly not all necessary.

Mr. Brooke : The first half of the hon. Gentleman's question was obviously serious. As a result of the spread of sponsors and the fact that smaller companies are now sponsoring arts and heritage, the amount of sponsorship continues to rise even though, as he rightly says, some larger companies have had to drop out because of the recession. As to the second half of his question, he does not seem discouraged by my reaction to his previous suggestion. As I said then, I am delighted to see that he is continuing to do research.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

National Audit Office

30. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission by how much the National Audit Office has increased in real terms the resources devoted to measuring the outcomes achieved by Government services.

Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission) : In the five years to 31 March 1993, the National Audit Office will have increased the number of

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value-for-money studies produced by some 50 per cent., from 33 to 50. Over the same period, the resources devoted to that work have risen in real terms by 45 per cent.

Mr. Bayley : I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. However, I am talking not just about value for money or efficiency but about effectiveness. As Government policy is moving towards an audit of policy in terms of quality and not just quantity of service provided, should we not be looking at the effectiveness of surgeons' operations in the national health service--that is, whether they make people better-- rather than just the number of operations? Does the National Audit Office have sufficient resources to carry out such outcome studies on effectiveness as well as efficiency?

Sir Peter Hordern : The Comptroller and Auditor General has frequently reported on the health service and, as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the right hon. Member for

Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) will bear out, the reports are concerned with the quality of service. The reports on the NHS from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health frequently produce tests of quality--the number of patients dealt with, and so on--so the reports from the National Audit Office are pretty good.

31. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what plans there are to increase the resources of the National Audit Office.

Sir Peter Hordern : The National Audit Office corporate plan for 1993-94 to 1997-98, which was approved by the Commission in July 1992, shows an increase in gross cash resources from £44.6 million to £47.4 million over the next five years. The office also plans to increase its output over the period, mainly as a result of auditing a further 60 accounts following the creation of new next steps agencies.

Mr. Bruce : I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, but could he give the House some sign as to whether the Commission has looked into the latent studies that the National Audit Office could be making? In particular, could he look at the studies being done into defence spending, as I believe that a large number of capital projects approved in the past have not been good value for money?

Sir Peter Hordern : I am tempted to go down that road, but, as the House knows, the Public Accounts Commission is the paymaster of the National Audit Office and matters of content are for the Public Accounts Committee. However, as the Chairman of that Committee will bear out, the National Audit Office has frequently done good research and reports on defence studies, including those into capital projects by the Ministry of Defence.

Mr. Skinner : I wonder whether the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee are also looking into Ministers' perks. Will they be examining, for instance, the Minister of Agriculture's pond, which cost the taxpayer about 4,700 quid? Then things moved on to the security fence. It seems to me that he is building up a farm. Are there any cattle involved, or is a horse-racing stud being built? I should like to know--and I should like to think that the Minister will be paying the bill.

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Sir Peter Hordern : I am sure that the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General will be drawn to what the hon. Gentleman has said. As to whether the Public Accounts Commission will be examining this matter among the many that it has to study already, I do not really know.

32. Mr. Austin Mitchell : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what proportion of the NAO's current budget is allocated to value-for-money audits.

Sir Peter Hordern : The National Audit Office allocated 56 per cent. of its budget for audit work for value-for-money activities in 1992-93.

Mr. Mitchell : Will consideration be given to more financing for the National Audit Office for value-for-money audits so that we can examine the Government's estimates of the cost of their legislation, such as the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill? The estimated costs of that measure have more than doubled since it was introduced to the House.

Sir Peter Hordern : That may well be a matter for the Public Accounts Committee to investigate. I understand that the Comptroller and Auditor General is studying the hon. Gentleman's letter and that the hon. Gentleman will be receiving a reply quite shortly.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Financial Management

33. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Chairman of the Finance and Services Committee if he will make a statement on initiatives to improve the financial management of the services of the House.

Mr. Paul Channon (Chairman of the Finance and Services Committee) : Initiatives include the start of a new bill-paying and financial information system and revision of the estimates to allocate costs and receipts to House Departments as a firm basis for financial targets and planning. The Finance and Services Committee will monitor and encourage this process, both when preparing annual estimates and in assessing particular services in consultation with the Director of Finance and Administration.

Mr. Banks : May I be the first to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new job, which is the latest in a long and glittering parliamentary career? As he may well be feeling a little nervous, I remind him that I have given him notice of my supplementary question-- [Interruption.] I want to be kind. Has the right hon. Gentleman made any estimate of the cost to the House, in terms of financial effectiveness, of the delay in the construction of the Jubilee line extension? Until we know precisely what is going on, the construction of new offices over Westminster station is being delayed.

Mr. Channon : I am deeply grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his many kindnesses and courtesy to me and for giving me notice of his supplementary question. I can assure him that my Committee is working with the Director of Works, the architect and the staff to get all the approvals in place so that arrangements with London Underground can be concluded when a decision is taken.

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There has been substantial delay, but I hope that the matter will be resolved shortly. If the project is postponed indefinitely, there will be serious implications for the House. That is something which I should think that the House would wish to consider.

Mr. Tracey : What powers does my right hon. Friend have over the House of Commons car park, where I see many cars which seem never to move from their position from day to day or from week to week? It would seem that some people are using the car park when they are not entitled to do so and that they are doing so without making any payment, thus depriving the City of Westminster of much valuable revenue.

Mr. Channon : I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that, so far as I know, I have no responsibility for that. Perhaps he will address his remarks to the Administration Committee, which I know is considering the matter. I suggest that he has a word with the Chairman, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin).

Mrs. Dunwoody : Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that he does not allow a vast amount of money to be spent on studies of the Refreshment Department which will meet with no one's approval and cost the taxpayer a considerable amount of cash?

Mr. Channon : I believe that the Refreshment Department is undertaking a study, with consultants, of a range of measures. I note the hon. Lady's views. No doubt the House will want to take a view about these matters in due course. I am sure that they are designed to save money rather than to spend more. We shall see what happens.

Buildings and Facilities

34. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what financial provision is being made to extend the office facilities of hon. Members and their staff.

36. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick- upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on the long-term plans to improve the House's buildings and facilities.

Mr. A. J. Beith (on behalf of the House of Commons Commission) : Following completion of the phase 1 building, preparation for the second phase, to provide offices for 210 Members and their staff, is well under way. Some £3 million has been allocated for design work in the next financial year. The tentative occupation date is 1998, but this is dependent on a decision being taken to proceed with the new underground station as part of the Jubilee line extension, to which reference has already been made. Meanwhile, as an interim measure, the House has leased additional space at 7 Millbank to provide offices for 100 Members and their staff, and £7.9 million is earmarked in 1993-94 for fitting-out work.

Mr. Bruce : I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. Does the Commission have a plan which might indicate to the House when, eventually, every Member of Parliament will have, next to the office, used by his or her staff, an office without a bar-- [Interruption.] I am sorry

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--a bath. In the late 20th century, it is about time we caught up with office conditions such as were available in the late 19th century.

Mr. Beith : It is intended that completion of the new parliamentary building, which should occur by the end of this century, will enable every hon. Member who wants an individual office to have one.

Mr. Greenway : On the important point raised unintentionally by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce), may I ask whether there will be cleansing facilities, such as baths and showers, connected with the new offices? Will the right hon. Gentleman also see whether proper cleansing provision can be made for members of the public who come to this House? [Interruption.] Showers, too, perhaps, though I am sure that members of the public, like Members, hardly need showers. Refreshment facilities might well be provided in Westminster Hall--why not?

Mr. Beith : Detailed arrangements for the rooms in the new parliamentary building are still being considered by the appropriate Committee. However the catering authorities of the House, in the course of the inquiries referred to a moment ago by the right hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), are also considering facilities for members of the public.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : How many Members of this House have the use of more than one office?

Mr. Beith : I have no information to hand on that point, but if I can find any which might be helpful to the hon. Gentleman I will supply him with it.

Mr. Dowd : In assessing office space for Members, is the right hon. Gentleman taking into account the disposition of office space in this building? Various offices in the Palace have less need to be in this building than does the accommodation of hon. Members. Is any attempt being made to examine precisely which administrative offices could be moved to outlying buildings so that more hon. Members might be accommodated here?

Mr. Beith : Yes, and significant progress has been made in that respect with the opening of 1 Parliament street. Further progress will be made by way of the new parliamentary building, to which a number of offices now in this building are expected to be transferred, thereby enabling more Members to be accommodated here.

Mr. Steen : Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why hair-driers are being installed in the public lavatories in the Palace and other parliamentary buildings? Is that a proper use of public money and is there a demand for such a facility?

Mr. Beith : I was unaware of that development, but I will inquire into it.

Facilities for Children

35. Mrs. Helen Jackson : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick- upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a further statement on progress in seeking to provide children's facilities in the Palace of Westminster.

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Mr. Beith : The Accommodation and Works Committee has now confirmed its earlier decision that no space for a child care facility can be found in the parliamentary estate before the completion of the phase 2 building. Negotiations are now proceeding to establish whether, and at what cost, the House could participate in a joint venture child care scheme being considered by a number of Whitehall Departments. I expect firm proposals to be put before the relevant authorities and the Commission shortly.

Mrs. Jackson : On our first day back, I suggested that the House should make a new year resolution to make this place more children- friendly. The answer that we have just heard--that there will be no place for children's facilities until the phase 2 building has been completed--is a great shame. Will the right hon. Gentleman please take steps, at the earliest opportunity, to meet the women Opposition Members who have been campaigning for such facilities, as well as other interested Members? While he is thinking about this, he should also look into the appalling situation that occurred last week, in which the half-term holiday fell, when my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Stevenson) tried desperately simply to obtain facilities at a reduced rate to accommodate hon. Members' children who were visiting Westminster. It was not possible to obtain any reduced rate accommodation. I shall be grateful if the hon. Gentleman will look into that.

Mr. Beith : The half-term holidays for more northern counties are taking place this week, when my children will be visiting the House. The hon. Lady's earlier question related in large part to the much more difficult issue of how the House could provide a cre che or nursery facilities. I was disappointed that the Accommodation and Works Committee was unable to identify suitable accommodation for that purpose in our present building. If the hon. Lady cares to discuss the matter with members of that Committee, she will be made aware of the pressure of other matters that they are having to consider. At least their decision will concentrate attention on the possibility of providing cre che facilities through a joint venture with Government Departments.

Sittings of the House

37. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the implementation of the proposals of the Select Committee on Sittings of the House.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton) : As I reaffirmed at Business Question Timlast Thursday, the prospect of progress with the Jopling proposals depends on our discussions through the usual channels.

Mr. Coombs : I recognise that progress has been made on the Jopling report, especially in the early notice given to hon. Members of recess dates, but is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable restlessness throughout the House at the general lack of action? Would it be asking too much for him to direct his best endeavours towards ensuring that, even though we may not have a debate on the subject during this Session because of other pressures, there is a statement of intent from the Government on what they propose to do?

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Mr. Newton : I understand my hon. Friend's point. Even if I did not, I would have registered the not unexpected murmurs--or more than murmurs-- of support for my hon. Friend from both sides of the House. I have no doubt that that support has also been registered by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett).

We have made rather more informal progress towards the Jopling recommendations than my hon. Friend suggested. Of course, I want to make more formal progress, but it must be against the background of the long and, I believe, proper tradition in the House of seeking to make procedural changes with a degree of agreement among all parties. That remains an important ingredient, as I think that the right hon. Lady would agree.

Mrs. Beckett : I agree with the Lord President's remarks, but does he accept that whatever views may be held about the sitting hours of the House, a large number of Back Benchers on both sides have reservations about the Government's wish, and the proposal in the report, to have automatic timetabling of all Government legislation? Will the right hon. Gentleman make it known, especially to his colleagues, that it does nothing to ease those fears when the Government use our present guillotine procedures to curtail legislative scrutiny on the basis of a timetable which they then discard, as has happened both with the paving motion for the Maastricht legislation and with the Education Bill last week?

Mr. Newton : The right hon. Lady made a similar point about the Education Bill at Business Question Time last week. I do not want to elaborate further on what I said then. The fact is that a reasonable amount of time was allowed for that Bill. We have to plan its progress in relation to other measures and she can expect its remaining stages to come before the House fairly shortly. On the right hon. Lady's other comments, as I said in the debate on the Jopling report last July, whatever phrase is used to describe it--whether automatic timetabling or programming--there is no doubt that the report was essentially a balanced package between, on the one hand, changes to improve and in many ways reduce the working hours of the House, against on the other hand a degree of greater certainty on the progress of Bills. It is difficult to understand how the one can proceed without the other.

Mr. Jopling : Will my right hon. Friend recognise two points? First, the Select Committee did not recommend the automatic timetabling of all Government Bills ; it excluded constitutional Bills taken on the Floor of the House. Secondly, it produced a unanimous report almost exactly a year ago, which was endorsed by 85 per cent. of hon. Members in the debate in July, so the Committee has demonstrated admirable restraint and patience. There is now a growing impatience in the House for something to be done to implement its opinions, which I believe are broadly held to be balanced and in need of urgent attention.

Mr. Newton : I hope that I have already shown that I well understand the point that my right hon. Friend made in the latter part of his remarks. As to the first part, that important point needs to be understood. To put it in shorthand terms, nothing in the Jopling report would have applied to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill.

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Statutory Instruments, &c

Madam Speaker : With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to statutory instruments.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.).

Rating and Valuation

That the draft Water Undertakings (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Scottish Power plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Scottish Nuclear Limited (Rateable Values) (Scotland)Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Scottish Hydro-Electric plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Oil Related and Petrochemical Plants (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Mines and Quarries (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

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That the draft Mercury Communications Ltd. (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Lochaber Power Company (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Industrial and Freight Transport (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Glasgow Underground (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Electricity Generators (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Telecommunications plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Railways Board (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Gas plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Amendment) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c-- [Mr. Patnick.]

Question agreed to.

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