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House of Commons

Wednesday 24 February 1993

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

Oral Answers to Questions

ENVIRONMENT

Contaminated Land Register

2. Mr. Hawksley : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the setting up of a contaminated land register.

The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. David Maclean) : I want to end the uncertainty as soon as possible. I intend to make a statement shortly on our proposals for registers of land that may be contaminated.

Mr. Hawksley : May I thank my hon. Friend for his answer? It is disappointing that he has not been able to give us a statement today. However, I thank him for the way in which he received courteously the all- party delegation of black country Members who made

representations for the register to be abandoned. May I make my hon. Friend aware that the banks, especially in the west midlands, which is an area covered by contaminated land that would all be on the register if it were set up, are now starting to tell people that they will reduce the value of their security if action is not taken quickly to get rid of the threat of a register? Will my hon. Friend come quickly to the House to make a statement?

Mr. Maclean : I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I was grateful to him, to other hon. Members from all parties who attended and to other all-party delegations that came to see me to make this point. As my hon. Friend is aware from our discussions, this is a complex matter. There are some fundamental flaws in the present proposals, but finding the right solution, which will not cause unnecessary blight, which will allow sensible development to take place, which will ensure that actively contaminated land is cleaned up and which will ensure that all people who have the right to know get to know, is not easy.

I am conscious of the need to act rather quickly and I hope that not too long a time will elapse before we can announce our firm proposals. I am absolutely convinced of one thing : I must get it right rather than give a rushed and speedy response.

Mr. Chris Smith : Is it not clear, however, that on the issue of contaminated land, the Government are trying desperately to scrabble out of a mess of their own making? Is it not the case that at present, the Government's proposals provide no incentive for the decontamination and treatment of land that is contaminated? Any register,

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any system and any amendments to the planning system that the Government produce must provide precisely such an incentive.

Mr. Maclean : It is unfortunate that the hon. Gentleman has his facts slightly wrong on this important issue. Incentives are available for cleaning up contaminated land. Although the Government make generous funds available, it is a tripartite exercise. We need funds from the Government, we need the response of the local authority and, of prime importance, we need the money from private enterprise, from the banks and from the building societies. We shall shortly bring forward proposals on how we see the way ahead. We have done the correct and honourable thing. We brought forward proposals for consultation and the consultation process has revealed some flaws in the proposals. We intend to ensure that when we bring forward our final proposals, we have taken on board all the views we have heard from all sides--I stress all sides--so that we can have proper industrial development and the regeneration of city areas that much need it.

Mr. Pickles : Does my hon. Friend accept that although there are plenty of inducements for taking care of contaminated land, there is a danger that the proposals as currently drafted might prevent that land from being used? Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be a great shame if the proposals caused areas within our inner cities to be abandoned? Does he accept that quite a lot of work has been done on getting rid of contaminated land? Will he give a commitment that when the register comes, it will be used as an incentive in terms of recognising that good work can be done and that land can be brought back into commercial use for people in inner cities?

Mr. Maclean : One of the most instructive visits that I have made recently was to the black country. There I was shown areas of land that had been cleaned up and were now perfectly suitable for their current use. District councils there gave me the message loud and clear that the present proposals would involve the danger of causing unnecessary blight. All hon. Members agree that we must deal with land that is a problem and which needs cleaning up and not just compile blacklists of land that might possibly have been contaminated some time since the Romans arrived. That is what I am addressing my mind to, and I am looking at the liability question. I want the land in our cities to be used. I do not want 600,000 acres of contaminated or potentially derelict land left idle and the countryside used instead.

Mr. Simon Hughes : If the Government are to make a U-turn and scrap section 143 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, will the Minister at least give us two assurances? The first is that there will be a requirement that contamination be cleared before planning permission is given. The second is that every portion of land is given a statement on its contamination level before it is developed.

Mr. Maclean : The hon. Gentleman is trying to jump too many hurdles at once--he is trying to look too far ahead. As I have said, I hope to make a statement shortly on how we see progress on this matter. My aims are simple and straightforward : to ensure that those interested in knowing the state of the land have their rights protected--the right to know is terribly important ; and actively to

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encourage the use and cleaning up of contaminated land--cleaned up not to some absolute standard but so as to be fit and suitable for the purpose for which it is intended.

Mr. Ashby : If a builder has spent millions of pounds decontaminating land and has built houses there, he should not then be faced with a solicitor telling him that a potential purchaser will not buy a property there because the land is on the register of contaminated land. That must not be allowed to prevail. There must be a system for taking land off the register once it has reached a standard of decontamination that is considered correct.

Mr. Maclean : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is one of the fundamental problems with the earlier statute. Once land has appeared on any published register, no matter how much it has been cleaned up it cannot come off the register. That is unacceptable. Opposition Members have also made the point to me that this is a problem which we should not put up with.

We are giving our attention to this problem and I want to look at every possible measure to get around it.

Urban Programme

3. Ms. Corston : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the effects of the abolition of the urban programme on his inner city strategy.

9. Mr. Grocott : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the effects of the abolition of the urban programme on his inner city strategy.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Howard) : The urban programme has not been abolished. We have made available £176 million for the urban programme in 1993-94, which will enable us to honour in full all existing commitments and provide £20 million for urban partnership fund projects as part of the new capital partnership programme. Planned resources for my Department's urban group of programmes for 1993-94 will increase by over £90 million, taking total spending to over £1 billion.

Ms. Corston : Is the Secretary of State aware that the effect of the cuts in the Bristol urban programme means that Bristol, which receives £1.7 million this year will receive £1 million next year, £500,000 the year after that, and after that, nothing? The cuts mean that jobs will be lost in areas such as Barton Hill in my constituency, where male unemployment is 43 per cent. They could also mean a threat to projects such as the provision of hostels for homeless women--and this in a city which, after London, has the highest number of homeless people.

What excuses will the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities offer when he goes to Bristol on Friday to explain why Bristol is to be treated in such a shabby fashion? What excuses does he have for the failure of his inner city policy?

Mr. Howard : When my hon. Friend goes to Bristol on Friday he will seek to ensure that the thoroughly misleading impression given by the hon. Lady is corrected. He will tell the people of Bristol about the £500,000 that will be made available to them through the urban partnership fund next year. He will tell them about the £9.3

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million to be made available to Bristol development corporation next year. He will express the hope that the hon. Lady and her party will at last support the activities of that corporation. He will tell the people of Bristol that the 57 urban priority areas are expected to be able to spend between them £0.5 billion in capital receipts in the current year, and what tremendous opportunities there are if only their local authorities were prepared to play their full part in taking advantage of them.

Mr. Grocott : First, perhaps the Secretary of State will apologise to the House and to me for not following the normal parliamentary courtesy of letting us know when questions are linked. Will he get off his high horse and apologise?

Secondly, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman acknowledge that the loss of urban funding is a bitter blow to us in The Wrekin because many of our schemes, such as home security and street lighting schemes, were designed to deal with vandalism and crime problems? Is it not a pretty absurd Government who have the Home Secretary telling us one day that law and order is a crucial issue when, the next day, the Secretary of State for the Environment instructs splendid local authorities, such as The Wrekin, to cut essential crime prevention measures?

Mr. Howard : The Wrekin will benefit from the urban programme to the extent of nearly £1 million this year and more than £500,000 next year. So far as crime is concerned, my Department will make available £130 million in the current year from estate action, crime prevention and security measures, and more than £23 million from our urban block of programmes on crime prevention. In all, 31 city challenge area partnerships have been formed with existing agencies to tackle crime in co- ordination with other urban regeneration measures. We are taking extremely seriously our responsibilities on measures to tackle crime effectively in inner cities.

Mr. Ward : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that as Opposition Members seem to know so little and are so unappreciative of what is being done to help the inner cities, the money would be well diverted to authorities that would put it to good and proper use?

Mr. Howard : I understand the feelings that make my hon. Friend say that, but at least Conservative Members recognise our responsibility to the people who live in the inner cities and we are determined to discharge those responsibilities, despite the misinformation and lack of co-operation from the Labour party.

Mr. John Marshall : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that his inner city strategy depends in part for its success on efficiency and honesty in local government? Lambeth, Liverpool, Sheffield and Hackney-- that roll of dishonour is a cause of great shame to this country. Do we not need a wide-ranging inquiry into local government corruption?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend makes a telling point. In the light of his remarks it is hardly surprising that the Labour party do not even dare to hold their local government conference this year. It has been cancelled.

Mr. Vaz : For the Secretary of State's information, we have just had the local government conference. Why does not the Secretary of State have the courage to admit that his inner city policy is in a state of utter chaos? Will he

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assure the House that if the 57 urban programme authorities fail to raise the £500 million which he says that they will raise--and which the Chancellor told me that they would raise--the Government will be prepared to make up that shortfall for the local authorities concerned? Does he not understand that continual cutting of urban aid will lead to greater social deprivation and the destruction of local communities and will further increase the already high level of crime in our inner cities? What is he going to do about that?

Mr. Howard : Of course, I shall not give the hon. Gentleman the absurd assurance that he requests. If the Government automatically underwrite any shortfall, what incentive will local authorities have to make use of their ability to spend their capital receipts? What the hon. Gentleman and his party must understand is that local authorities have an important part to play and important responsibilities to discharge. We are making available to them the means to discharge those responsibilities. I hope that local authorities will take full advantage of those opportunities.

Mr. Streeter : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the £1.8 million recently granted to the city of Plymouth under the urban partnership fund is extremely welcome? The money will be used by the local authority, in partnership with the private sector, to breathe new life into inner city districts. Is my right hon. and learned Friend further aware that that is exactly the sort of development to which his policy is leading?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is entirely right. When I visited Plymouth a few weeks ago I was delighted to see for myself the tremendous progress being made there and the potential that exists for further progress. I congratulate my hon. Friend and all those in Plymouth who are co-operating with the Government to make the most of the opportunities that are undoubtedly being made available to them.

Citizens Charter

4. Mr. Pope : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress local authorities are making to meet the service standards objectives set down in the citizens charter.

Mr. Howard : Large numbers of local authorities are now publishing local charters based on the citizens charter's principles of good public service and responsiveness to public needs. Those, together with the chartermark scheme and the Audit Commission's work on local government performance indicators, will greatly help improve quality in the delivery of local services. I shall be writing to the leader of every council very shortly with details of this year's chartermark scheme inviting them to apply.

Mr. Pope : Does the Secretary of State agree that there is little point in issuing citizens charters when local authorities simply do not have the resources to implement them? Is he aware that, even in Tory- controlled authorities such as Ealing, cuts are now biting into core services such as day nurseries, play group, and mobile library services? Even mental health day centres are threatened with closure in Tory- controlled Ealing. What use is the citizens charter to such services?

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Mr. Howard : I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The citizens charter is about making public services more efficient and more responsive to the public within existing resources. I fear that it is typical of the hon. Gentleman and his party that they think that the only way to improve services is to spend more money. They do not have faith in local government and do not believe that it is possible for local authorities to improve their efficiency within existing resources--we do.

Sir Anthony Durant : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that many local authorities--many of them Labour controlled--do not provide custodial places for young people? They provide places from which the young people can easily get out and reoffend, but they do have the powers to provide custodial sentences.

Mr. Howard : I agree with my hon. Friend. Our hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health made that point to devastating effect during Question Time yesterday when he spoke of the enormous gulf between the words of the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman on law and order, the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair), and the actions of Labour-controlled local authorities.

Local Government Finance

5. Mr. Corbyn : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the proportion of local government spending in Greater London provided by central Government in the current year ; and what was the figure in 1979-80.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robin Squire) : The proportion of estimated local government expenditure in Greater London financed by central Government grant in 1992- 93 is 68 per cent., and a further 21 per cent. is financed from redistributed business rates. The earliest year for which broadly comparable figures are available is 1981-82, when central Government met 44 per cent. of local government expenditure.

Mr. Corbyn : Does the Minister accept that London has a number of serious problems that are not sufficiently met by central Government funding? Some 62 per cent. of Britain's homeless people live in London, there are high and rising levels of unemployment in inner city areas and the administration of local services in London is more expensive than in the rest of the country. In addition, London has a capitalwide concessionary fares scheme to enable pensioners to travel free around the city. All those factors are extremely expensive. Will the Minister explain why he did not accept the proposals of the Association of London Authorities and the London Boroughs Association for adequate funding of London's local authority services and has instead encouraged the massive cuts presently taking place?

Mr. Squire : I think that my answer exploded in the hon. Gentleman's face because it demonstrated, first, that in the past 10 years London has done very well out of grant distribution. That is not only my opinion because the list of authorities that receive grant show that the authority that he represents, Islington, has the fifth highest amount of support per head of population of all authorities. The problem is not grant ; it is that Islington and one or two

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other councils do not collect money in the first place. Islington's latest figures for the nine months to 31 December show that only two authorities are worse. If the figures were improved, that is where such authorities would get more money for funding.

Dame Angela Rumbold : In view of my hon. Friend's figures about the funding for London and the fact that transitional relief in London will be relatively high, does my hon. Friend agree that Londoners, and especially my constituents in Labour-controlled Merton, should be able to expect adequate services and relatively low council tax bills in the coming year?

Mr. Squire : My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The system that we are introducing in April in co-operation with local authorities, which have been very helpful, will ensure that in London, as in the rest of the country, people will not face excessively high bills. I am sure that the transitional relief scheme will be welcomed in my right hon. Friend's constituency.

Area Cost Adjustment

6. Mr. Nigel Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when his review of area cost adjustment will be complete ; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities (Mr. John Redwood) : We have begun the review. We aim to complete it before thend of the year. It will be discussed during the debate on the general settlement.

Mr. Jones : I thank the Minister for that reply, which is partially helpful. Is he aware that there is widespread concern in historically low- spending areas that the workings of area cost adjustment combined with the inaccuracies of standard spending assessments are leading to severe cuts in services? For instance, did he see the chief constable of Gloucestershire on BBC "Newsnight" on Monday who said that he had to keep 40 officer posts vacant so as to meet this year's spending round? That shows that the Department's spending limit does not match the establishment required by the Home Office. What has the Minister to say to Conservative councillors in Gloucestershire who two weeks ago decided to set a budget-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order. This is a good opportunity to inform the House that I want brisk questions and equally brisk answers.

Mr. Redwood : I am glad that the hon. Gentleman thinks that my answer was partially helpful. I think that it was much more than partially helpful ; it was very helpful. The hon. Gentleman should make his representations at the time on the issue that worries him. I say to Gloucestershire, "Go and look at Hampshire." It is setting the lowest council tax of the shire counties so far, recruiting more than 700 additional staff for the new responsibilities and showing that if affairs are well run it is possible to operate within the money available and do a good job for local citizens.

Madam Speaker : I call Mr. Spencer Batiste to set an example.

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Mr. Batiste : When my hon. Friend considers the mythology-- [Interruption] --methodology of the standard spending assessments to what extent will he consider it appropriate to include in the criteria the performance of local authorities compared with the standards being set under the various criteria established by the citizens charter?

Mr. Redwood : That is a very interesting idea and I think that my hon. Friend's slip was quite deliberate. I reassure him that I am no student of myths, but I have had to peregrinate the ways of the standard spending assessments in order to do this job. I agree that we want accountable, good quality local services from accountable, good quality councils and I shall take my hon. Friend's idea on board when we conduct our review.

Mr. Robert Ainsworth : Does the Minister accept that some of the questions about local government service depend to a large degree on a level playing field? Does he agree that the area cost adjustment was introduced to get the Government off the hook on which they put themselves with the poll tax and their supporters in the home counties? It is a deliberate distortion of the basis of local government finance and the Minister should take the opportunity to put it right.

Mr. Redwood : I should like to know whether it is official Labour policy to take away the area cost adjustment. Do Labour Members want to take all that money from inner London? If so, let them tell the House and tell me, and we shall regard it as a representation for this review.

Council Tax

7. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities have so far set their council tax for 1993-94 ; at what average level ; what is his current estimate of arrears of unpaid community tax ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Redwood : Press reports of 193 local authorities have been monitored by the Department of the Environment. So far, the average headline tax per dwelling of those authorities before transitional relief and benefit is £450. That compares with an average community charge per household in the current year of £486 before transitional relief and benefit. The Government estimate that at the end of December 1992 authorities were owed £1,400 million of community charge relating to the period from 1990. I hope that they will make due speed in collecting it because that will be good news for their taxpayers and for the services that they provide.

Mr. Greenway : Will my hon. Friend confirm that the level of uncollected community charge is roughly equal to the level of rates that were not collected and that this is particularly true in the borough of Ealing, where people fear the Labour party in local government? Will he tell that to the hon. Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Ainsworth)? The Labour party had better learn its history : it imposed a 65 per cent. rate increase in a single year upon the good people of Ealing and set up a disgraceful administration from which we are still trying to recover. Labour cannot and has never been able to run local government efficiently.

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Mr. Redwood : It is certainly true that it is the Labour authorities which are bad at collecting money. Some of them have had to think about job losses and reduced services because they are not collecting the money that they are owed. That is the money which we need for local services.

Mr. Straw : Will the Minister confirm that the figures that he gave of average levels of council tax imply a level of band D across the country of about £550? Will he also confirm that that is £125 above the predictions made by the previous Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), before the election, even allowing for inflation, since he predicted the figure of £400? Contrary to the constant assertions of the Secretary of State, were not these pre-election predictions? Will he confirm that the former Secretary of State said that the figures in the tables represented bills once the council tax had been put in place and that the only qualification given was that the council tax bills this year would be lower than in those predictions? Why is it that, thanks to the incompetence and parsimony of the Government, council tax bills will be at least £125 higher than the Government predicted before the election?

Mr. Redwood : The Government have never made forecasts of the level of council tax for the year of introduction. I have made no forecast and my right hon. and learned Friend has made none. We have always said that we would keep the House informed when councils set their levels of tax and that is what I have done today. The hon. Gentleman does not like it, because it is coming in much lower than he expected. That is good news for people round the country and good news for local government.

Mr. Sumberg : As the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) recently executed a neat U-turn when he told Tribune that the underlying principle of the council tax was about right, will my hon. Friend agree that any Labour local authority that cannot set a reasonable level of council tax cannot knock the system and has only itself to blame?

Mr. Redwood : My hon. Friend is right. From the figures that we have seen so far, it is noticeable that the highest taxes are set by Labour authorities and the lowest by Conservative, even though Labour councils get far more grant on average than do Conservative councils. Of the county councils, Hampshire is the lowest at £328 and Lancashire, which is Labour controlled, is the highest at £472. Of the shire districts, Derwentside is £212 and Wellingborough, which is Conservative, is minus £174, because it is so good at budgeting, selling assets and controlling costs that it is putting money back into local taxpayers' pockets.

Mr. Skinner : While we are on the subject of paying back taxes and poll tax in particular, why does not the Minister send a message to Her Majesty the Queen reminding her that she never paid any poll tax and asking for it retrospectively? He can add a PS and ask for the 40 years' back payment of income tax that she has never paid either.

Mr. Redwood : As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the House decided that Her Majesty would have no liability for that tax, but she has offered to pay the council tax. I am sure that that will be paid in due time in the way the hon. Gentleman expects.

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Mr. Butcher : Does my hon. Friend agree that one possible reason for future variations in council tax will be the major variations in staffing and manning levels and the efficiency of local authorities? There is a grave suspicion that some local authorities are seriously overmanned, while operating identical services to others which are not. May we have clear management information on which people can make judgments on, for example, the number of employees per thousand of population, so that people may be better informed about the efficiency of their councils?

Mr. Redwood : Much of this information is available in local areas and it is a proper matter for local debate in council chambers. I am sure that Conservative councillors in opposition will make clear how inefficient the worst Labour councils are and how much money is being wasted. It will cost about £100 per household more next year to live under a Labour council than under a Conservative one. I am sure that the electorate will take note and do the obvious thing.

Standard Spending Assessment

8. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the standard spending assessment for the city of York.

Mr. Robin Squire : The standard spending assessment for the city of York for 1993-94 is £11.066 million. This represents an increase of 2.1 per cent. on the comparable figure for 1992-93, which is close to the average for all shire districts.

Mr. Bayley : Does the Minister accept that the increase in SSA for York is based on the increase in population, which the census revealed, of 2.1 per cent., leaving 0 per cent.--not even the rate of inflation--for services? Does he accept that if York city council even spent up to the capping limit, it would have to cut its services by £1.9 million? District councils as well as councils in metropolitan areas are being knocked for six by spending cuts, in total defiance of what the Government said in their election manifesto--

Madam Speaker : Order. I have already appealed for brisk questions and brisk answers. I find it very disappointing when my pleas, in order to be helpful to hon. Members, are ignored in this way. Will the hon. Gentleman please put his point directly now?

Mr. Bayley : How does the Minister justify such cuts to my city council?

Mr. Squire : I have already explained that the increase for York council was roughly the same as the average for shire district councils. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the fact that the assessment reflects the current population and thus ensures that the council gets more money. Let me be clear. York's expenditure in the current year is some £16.2 million, which is £5.4 million more than the SSA--in other words, it is using reserves. In contrast, last year--1990-91--expenditure was £1.3 million less than the SSA. The hon. Gentleman must look closely to the council to behave more responsibly.

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All Ages Social Index

10. Mr. John Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will pay an official visit to St. Helens metropolitan borough council to discuss the all ages social index.

Mr. Robin Squire : My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to visit St. Helens. However, we are aware of, and have carefully considered, all the concerns of St. Helens about the revenue support grant settlement for 1993-94. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I met a delegation from St. Helens on 7 January when these were discussed.

Mr. Evans : Is the Minister aware that most people would condemn the refusal of the Secretary of State to come to St. Helens, probably because he would have difficulty explaining to St. Helens councillors why authorities such as Kensington, Chelsea, Richmond upon Thames and Westminster are more impoverished than St. Helens? Is not it time that the Government accepted that as long as unemployment, particularly long-term employment, is excluded from the register, most fair-minded people will continue to regard the social index as corrupt?

Mr. Squire : I am sorry to hear those comments from the hon. Gentleman. I am particularly sorry that he chose not to mention the London Labour authorities occupying higher positions in the league than those Conservative councils that he mentioned. The truth is that the SSA is applied nationally, as he knows. He is entitled to suggest that a particular element, or more than one element, should be treated differently and we shall be looking at that. In particular, we have made it clear that because of the significant changes that will occur in 1994-95 following the 1991 census figures, we will have a close look at the structure of SSA including unemployment. However, the hon. Gentleman must specify the elements that he would seek to delete in addition to that ; otherwise he will simply be reducing grants for mainly Labour areas.

Local Government (Corruption)

11. Mr. Bellingham : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent steps he has taken to eradicate fraud and corruption in local authorities.

Mr. Redwood : Prevention of fraud is the responsibility of individual local authorities and a matter for the auditor and, where the system has failed, for the police. The Government have duties and powers to enforce proper procedures for compulsory competitive tendering and my right hon. and learned Friend will not hesitate to use those powers where necessary.

Mr. Bellingham : Why is it that, with one or two exceptions, the overwhelming majority of fraud and corruption in local government is taking place in Labour councils? [Interruption.] The Opposition do not like it because I have touched a raw nerve. Does the Minister of State agree that if Labour councillors carry on like this, many of them will lose their seats at the next local elections?

Mr. Redwood : It is certainly true that there is financial difficulty in many Labour authorities and financial difficulty and looseness can lead to worse things. If that

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occurs, it is important that it is thoroughly investigated and stamped out and, as my hon. Friend said, it is in the interests of the Opposition to make sure that that happens.

Ms. Hoey : Will the Minister condemn the extraordinary antics in Lambeth council last night when Conservative councillors worked with Labour councillors who had been expelled and who are no longer Labour councillors to reject a motion that would have dissolved the direct services organisation? Why are Conservative councillors in Lambeth so complacent about the huge financial irregularities that have been found there? Did the Conservative councillors who voted last night do so on his instructions, or are they out of step with the party line?

Mr. Redwood : Everyone knows that Labour is in control, or is trying to be in control, of Lambeth. That is just a red herring. Of course, Conservative councillors in Lambeth are not under my instructions--I trust that there is free democratic debate in that council--and they do not come to Ministers for any idea of what they should be doing.

Mr. Bowis : Is not it a corrupt practice for elected councillors to set a community charge and then not pay it themselves? Does my hon. Friend agree that one reason for the great sense of outrage in the London borough of Lambeth is that councillors have done precisely that--and none of those councillors is Conservative? Is not it about time that a law was brought before the House to establish that any such non-payment is attached to the over-inflated expenses earnings of those same councillors?

Mr. Redwood : My hon. Friend is quite right. It is a scandal if councillors owe money to their council, collect their expenses and then say that they will not pay on principle, just as it was a scandal when some Opposition Members did not think that they should pay those charges. I am glad that that period is passing into our history books and I trust that they will all be paying their council taxes.

Mr. Straw : Will the Minister confirm that in an answer to the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham) he said that reported fraud in 1991-92 in all 400 local authorities amounted to just £3.5 million? Is he aware that that represents one sixtieth of the £230 million of fraud and serious mismanagement reported in central Government Departments and quangos such as health authorities, which are packed with Conservative party appointees? Do not those figures show that the unelected, quango state which the Tory party has created is also the unaccountable and corruptible state?

Mr. Redwood : A penny of fraud is a penny too much and the sums that the hon. Gentleman mentioned are large by most people's standards. He may find £3 million very little, but I think that it is a lot of money. Perhaps he should see what £3 million looks like ; if it were piled up in the Chamber it would take up quite a lot of room. The problem is that much bigger sums are under suspicion or under investigation. The public wants to know what has gone on in those councils and the sooner the air is cleared the better.

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Compulsory Competitive Tendering

13. Mr. Sweeney : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he will take to ensure that all local authorities apply compulsory competitive tendering with equal rigour.

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