House of Commons Hansard Debates for 5 Mar 1993

Mr. Gary Streeter (Plymouth, Sutton) : Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to prevent crime is to produce children who are predominantly law abiding and who become law-abiding adults? Does he agree that the only vehicle to do so is a stable and functioning family unit? Will the cross-departmental group consider that idea?

Mr. Jack : My hon. Friend has made a salient point about the contribution of the family and some of the fundamental values that ultimately enable the bulk of the population to distinguish between right and wrong. Whether we like it or not, crime is an individual act of wrongdoing. My hon. Friend has made a powerful point. I was saying that we would pull together policies with the ministerial group on crime prevention. For example, in

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the Department for the Environment's city challenge programme, work on inner-city task forces and estate action programmes contribute to fighting crime. The Department of Health supports work with juvenile offenders and has programmes to reduce alcohol misuse. The Department for Education acts to reduce truancy and supports projects to prevent young people from drifting into crime. The Department of Transport has a successful programme of action to reduce crime on public transport.

Even the Treasury's fight against white-collar crime contributes to the policy, as does the Department of National Heritage, by its latest initiative to tackle satellite pornography, which I know many hon. Members will welcome and which we support by assisting the police to buttress enforcement of the Obscene Publications Act 1959.

Mr. Mark Wolfson (Sevenoaks) : I note that my hon. Friend says that he is assisting the police to tackle the problem of such material. Is he prepared to say that the Government are considering new legislation, as the police say that that is essential? Does my hon. Friend think that that is essential?

Mr. Jack : I have sometimes had the distasteful experience of looking at some of the disgusting, filthy and vile pornographic material available, not just for a few minutes, but for many hours. I have been looking to see what can be done practically to strengthen the effectiveness of the Obscene Publications Act. I am studying the issue, which is complex, and am left in no doubt of the feelings of the House on it.

Mr. John Fraser (Norwood) : Earlier, the Minister said that the Government were dealing with the problem of persistent offenders. How can the courts deal with that problem when, under section 29 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991, they are bound to ignore previous convictions in most cases? How can the juvenile courts deal with a third offence when, under section 29, they have to ignore the previous two offences?

Mr. Jack : I hope that there will later be a lengthy contribution on that issue, and I want to listen carefully to Opposition Members' views. However, the criticism of the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) of the Criminal Justice Act should not detract from the excellence of the announcement of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary earlier this week. He described what specific, focused action we would be taking to deal with the persistent juvenile offenders whom the present system cannot handle as effectively as we would like.

I have given way generously, as I want to give hon. Members a chance to express their concerns about crime, and to respond to them. Crime may be about all the sectors of the criminal justice system that are welded together in our effective strategy on crime and crime prevention. However, dealing with crime also involves people's values, morals and commitment to join in a partnership against crime. I hope that today's debate will help all law-abiding citizens in this land to realise that--together with the Government and the other agencies that I have mentioned--they can form a truly effective partnership against crime.

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10.14 am

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : I welcome the debate as a sign that the Government are starting to recognise what the Labour party has been saying for some time--there is a crisis of confidence in the Government's handling of crime and a mounting chorus of pleas for action. Those pleas come from Labour Members, the police, the media and ordinary people and communities up and down the country. In the words of the shadow Home Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) :

"Recent events have been hammer blows on the conscience of the nation."

Admitting that the problem exists is only a small first step. We need action, but neither Tuesday's statement by the Home Secretary nor the Minister's opening remarks offered an analysis of Britain's crime problem or a strategy for defeating crime. In addition, the two Ministers did not make the obvious connection between Conservative policies and the growth of an environment in which crime can flourish. Home Office Ministers show no leadership qualities. The Minister of State started with a philosophic treatise and said that crime was frustrating. It is not just frustrating ; it needs to be frustrated. He acknowledged that crime involves people and that victims should come first. He said that police forces were trying to put officers back on the beart. But the Home Secretary's financial regime discourages that, and the red tape of bureaucracy created by the Government impedes police officers.

Since the general election the Government have reneged on the promises that they made. Criticism of crime is a criticism of the Government, not the police. When the Minister considers the complaint of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), he should note the crime record in recent years. In Avon and Somerset, there was a 212 per cent. increase in crime between 1979 and 1991, but an increase of only 8 per cent. in the number of police officers. In that period the clear-up rate decreased from 43 per cent. to 24 per cent. In Devon and Cornwall, there was a 159 per cent. increase in crime and a 7 per cent. increase in the establishment of police, with a drop from 46 per cent. to 29 per cent. in the clear-up rate. Those figures can be replicated all around the country.

How can the Minister say that he bases his comments on sound research? How can he praise programmes that he is cutting? The Minister gave a list of actions and announced some belated support for victim support schemes. We heard a little about compensation, but the best support for victims would be to cut crime through a proper national strategy to fight crime. The Minister played down the importance and public danger of car crime, particularly death-riding. I shall not use the phrase "joy-riding"--it is death-riding. The Minister played down that problem when he mentioned percentages, as though it were of minor importance. It is not.

In a disgraceful attempt to slur the Labour party, the Minister quoted selectively from our manifesto, which promised more resources for police in the fight against crime. In a mealy-mouthed way, the Conservative party promised more resources for the police, but withdrew its promise as soon as the general election was out of the way. Our manifesto promised help to prevent crime and to increase security, especially for women, who often feel

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more vulnerable than anyone else. It offered support for victims and contained provisions to give equal access and treatment for all before the law.

The Minister suggested that the rise in crime was not as great as everyone else perceived and that it only seemed greater, because a higher proportion of crime was being reported. That is not the belief of the police, our communities or Members of Parliament throughout the country. The Minister gave us fine words, but condemned himself by defending the Government's record, which is awful and inconsistent.

I shall simply ask one question. If everything is so wonderful and the Government are implementing such a marvellous policy on crime, why is there so much more crime after 14 years of Conservative rule? Before and since the general election, the Labour party has advanced arguments and made contributions to the fight against crime, including the "7 Steps for Justice" policy published by my predecessor. I have referred to the comments and contributions of my hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary, but what we need--and what only the Government can deliver--is action not words. My interest in the subject is not sudden ; I have taken an interest in it for 20 years, since I became a juvenile court magistrate, before I came to the House and when I worked with young offenders.

It is curious that in the Minister's comments on the fight against crime, he did not mention secure accommodation. We still have 15 and 16-year-olds in adult prisons, despite the promise given by the Home Secretary and his No. 2, the present Secretary of State for Education, in February 1991 to end remand in adult prisons. That part of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 has still not been implemented because there is still nowhere to put these people. In the two years since the promise was made, not one extra place has been created. When the Home Office Minister made the 1991 announcement, I tabled questions asking for some basic information : how many places, how much cash, how soon? Far from being answered by the Home Office, all these questions were referred to the Secretary of State for Health. But the buck passing does not stop there. In an outrageously inaccurate comment to the press this week, the Home Secretary tried to blame Labour local authorities for the lack of secure accommodation. That was as inaccurate as the Prime Minister's suggestion of where crime is rising in this country. What about research? If the Minister is doing some research, he had better pass a little of it on to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, neither of whom seems to know what is happening.

The Home Secretary criticised Manchester for not helping to provide more secure places. Is he not aware that the Department of Health steering group has told Manchester that the north-west has enough secure places, so it cannot bid for cash anyway? The right hon. and learned Gentleman criticised Leicester--a hung council which is perfectly willing to co-operate but is still expecting and waiting for capital and revenue cash which the Government have still not offered it.

The Home Secretary said that Nottinghamshire is not willing to help. It has the biggest secure unit in the east midlands, which it has run for 11 years. It has heard nothing from the Department of Health directly about an expansion of secure place provision. The inspectorate has started to talk about capital costs, but not about revenue

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costs. The Under-Secretary of State for Health has not yet apologised, although he must know that the information that he gave the House last week was incorrect. My local authority, South Glamorgan, has been denied the cash and has been blocked by the Welsh Office in its attempt to provide secure places locallly.

Mr. Jack : I am reluctant to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I want to pick up a couple of his points. I did talk about secure accommodation for juveniles. Secondly, we have made it abundantly clear that resources are available for local authority secure accommodation, but there have been difficulties with take-up by local authorities. Will the hon. Gentleman support the Home Secretary's announcement and give it his unequivocal backing when we bring measures to the House to enable our proposal on secure accommodation for juveniles to be put into action?

Mr. Michael : It would be much better if the Home Secretary supported our proposals, which can be brought in now, not in two or three years' time. The Minister is not actually responsible for this matter--this is part of the buck passing around the Government--and I am sure that he did not intend to mislead the House : but the money has not been made available. Only in the past week or two, under pressure from us, has the money started to become available. I think that we are succeeding in teasing some things out of the Minister and his colleagues, and not before time. If the Government are serious about secure places, they must provide the capital cash to build and the revenue cash to run these facilities.

Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere) rose --

Mr. Michael : I am dealing with the Minister's point, if the hon. Gentleman will allow me. The capital cost of a secure place is about £200,000 per place. In a reply yesterday, the Minister of State confirmed that the Home Office has provided no cash, while the health Minister confirmed that on top of refurbishment money

"a further £680,000 is available to meet the capital cost of providing additional secure places for juvenile remands."-- [Official Report, 3 March 1993 ; Vol. 220, c. 170.]

That figure refers to 1992-93, and it means that three and two fifths places will be provided in the financial year that is coming to an end. That is really going to shock young offenders up and down the country into going straight.

The Government are not serious about their proposals for secure accommodation. Ministers dealing with this week's proposals hope to be well out of sight by the time the chickens come home to roost. The Home Secretary and the Minister of State must be accountable for the promises of their predecessors in 1991 and provide the resources needed.

Mr. Clappison : Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question that he so conspicuously has failed to answer this morning and which his hon. Friend the Minister for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) did not answer on Wednesday? Does he support the idea of the courts having a sentencing power for 12 to 15-year-olds so as to place them in secure accommodation--yes or no?

Mr. Michael : By making these proposals, the Home Secretary is catching up with proposals that the Labour

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party has already made. The test for the Government is not the promise of legislation next year ; it is providing money for the secure places now--

Mr. Clappison rose --

Mr. Michael : I have answered the hon. Gentleman. If he does not have ears to hear, that is his problem, not mine

Mr. Clappison rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot just stand there remonstrating with the hon. Member who has the Floor.

Mr. Michael : Clearly, the hon. Gentleman is not used to taking part in debates here.

Let take a closer look at this week's promise of secure training units for 11 to 15-year-olds. The statement given on Tuesday was remarkably lightweight. I like the press heading,

"Tough guy Kenny and his popgun at the young thugs".

That accurately characterised the whole business. The Home Secretary's announcement answered not one of the 10 questions to which the Minister here today responded on Monday with the words : "My right hon. and learned Friend will be making a statement to the House about his proposals".--[ Official Report, 1 March 1993 ; Vol. 220, c. 3. ]

That answer in itself was a triumph of hope over experience. Many questions remain to be answered : how much, who pays, where will the units be? In the light of Tuesday's statement, I must tell the Minister that I will be tabling a new set of questions, and I warn him that I want answers this time. I can give him one to answer now. Where is the money coming from? Has the Treasury agreed to capital costs and revenue costs of about £100 million in the first three years, or will the money come out of existing Home Office estimates? Is the cash extra to the cost of secure places for 15 and 16-year-olds? It will have to be more than just £680,000 next year if the Government are to live up to their promises--and they are running out of time in which to do so.

Is the £13 million on top of the Department of Health's budget? And who will be paying the running costs? All these questions require answers, but they are on the Home Secretary's own ground. It was he who chose to make the announcement this week and he who chose secure accommodation as the ground of debate, and he should have done his homework and provided us with answers. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman can answer these questions, he must then answer the question : so what? Even if he fulfils his promise, it will be three years before the units are up and running, while the problem with youth crime is here now, and victims are suffering and asking for action now.

On Tuesday, I said that I was amazed that the Home Secretary had missed his big chance to be the man who tackled youth crime. I was not the only person to say that. Others share my view. The chairman of the Police Federation said :

"The problem of persistent juvenile offenders is with us now. It won't go away. The measures announced today will not begin to protect the public until 1995-96. This is a missed opportunity which will dismay the general public. It certainly doesn't make our job easier. Legislation is needed now, not next year."

In any event, the proposals run counter to the performance of the Government in so many areas. Next to the Home

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Secretary on Tuesday sat the Secretary of State for Health, silent and embarrassed. In her own constituency, the facility of Peper Harrow has fallen silent. It dealt with the rehabilitation of some of the most damaged young people in society, but it closed because the market did not work, because local authorities could not afford to use its facilities and because the Government are placing too much strain and too many unrealistic expectations on the agencies that work with young people. All this is extremely relevant to crime. If the Home Secretary's big idea for 11 to 15-year-olds has to come from inside his budget, will there be further capping and cutting of police numbers and of cash for police authorities? Does he not know that many projects with a track record of reducing local crime are being closed under the pressure of cuts and capping and of the underfunding of community care, all of which puts enormous pressure on local authorities?

Let us get to the truth of the matter. The police have to cope with a work load that has increased by more than 115 per cent. since Mrs. Thatcher came to power. Police establishments have increased by an average 7 per cent. in that time. The clear-up rate has fallen from 41 to 29 per cent. The two authorities that I have mentioned are typical in that regard. All the Home Secretary offers is a needless and irrelevant reorganisation of police forces which will demoralise those in the front line--and this as the first step in his plan to nationalise the police.

Mr. Michael Shersby (Uxbridge) : That last remark was unworthy of the hon. Gentleman. There are no plans whatever to nationalise the police, and I appeal to him, in a spirit of co-operation, not to say things like that, which will certainly demoralise the police.

Mr. Michael : If the hon. Gentleman can persuade his Home Secretary to assure us that not only will he not nationalise the police force but he will not disrupt the present effective pattern by creating larger, regional police forces, taking chief constables further away from the local level and an understanding of the communities that the police serve, I shall be delighted. The Government's record in removing accountability and local control from the health service, of taking everything to the centre, is not reassuring. We demand a firm reassurance from the Home Secretary and not from the hon. Gentleman who, I know, takes a great interest in the work of the police. We need a Government who will back the police and give local authorities a statutory role to co-ordinate crime prevention and enable police, local authorities and communities to join in a dynamic partnership to tackle crime where it exists--in the community. Many senior officers and local councils are showing the way and people are asking why Ministers do not take their courage in their hands and go for it. I challenge the Government to do so.

Mr. Harry Greenway : The hon. Gentleman speaks about community involvement in police activity. Some years ago, police consultative committees were set up in all the London boroughs and for some time Lambeth, Hackney and Ealing Labour parties, among others, refused to nominate representatives to those committees. Why was that?

Mr. Michael : I am a member of a police consultative committee, which is unusual among hon. Members. Therefore, I can say with some authority that the work of

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those committees is extremely valuable. But it has been patchy. A great deal of activity is needed to improve the criteria on which the committees operate and the quality of information provided to them. We must also develop their role. There is a need for work in that area and there is no room for the complacency that I detected in the hon. Gentleman's intervention.

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the major concerns of many London boroughs--certainly all the Labour -controlled ones--relates to the ineffective monitoring of the Metropolitan police force, which is completely undemocratic? We want a police authority for London that is controlled by Londoners rather than by the Home Secretary.

Mr. Michael : I am certain that my hon. Friend is right. His suggestion will also be welcomed by the police because there is a growing recognition by the police of the need for a partnership between local authorities, local people and the police. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock) has spoken to me about the aspirations of people in London.

The Minister praised individual projects and referred to providing bits of cash here and there. However, he failed to translate success in a project to a strategy across the nation. He sees success and worth, but cannot will the resources. He and I were in distinguished company a couple of weeks ago and heard from people who had been involved in a project to cut car crime. We also heard from the police about the success of that project. Action is needed now to spread that type of project across the country. There is no point in having it in just one or two places or even a couple of hundred places. Ministers stole a favourite Labour theme that is close to the question of police consultative committees when they recognised that the addition of a little cash and a few staff would enable a safer cities approach to cut crime. The Minister referred to that and said that it works. However, he cuts the money for such schemes and for new schemes. My hon. Friend the Member for Deptford told me about the devastation in her area and the disappointment when people there heard that their scheme was cut.

We want every city, town and village to be safer, and not just the few on this year's ministerial goodies list. Like a latter day and unrepentant Scrooge, the Minister smuggled out just before Christmas his rejection of the Morgan report which spelt out the way in which a dynamic partnership of the sort that Labour supports could contain crime and then cut it in every community. The Minister spoke with pride about setting up a new think tank. Will he listen to its conclusions or will he fail to listen to them, in the way that he failed to listen to the Morgan report and to the standing conference on car crime?

If the bulk of car crime and home burglaries were tackled, as demanded in Labour's strategy, which was set out in "Getting a grip on youth crime", and if the Morgan report were implemented, the number of victims would be reduced and the police could target their time effectively. I urge the Minister to consider those suggestions and to think again. I welcome the Home Secretary's acknowledgement that crime has social causes. Labour's view is that such causes do not minimise the personal responsibility of the individual. However, that must be

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understood in the context of society. Perhaps the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister need to have a chat about that and decide what to think.

It is not enough for the Home Secretary or the Minister to say that there are social causes or for the Minister's predecessor to blame the growth of the "me" society, without saying who has encouraged that society for the past 14 years. We start from the assumption that no sane person would want to increase crime. If some lunatic Prime Minister wanted to create discontent, law breaking and mayhem among the young, what would he do? He would surely destroy jobs, so that idle hands were ready for the devil's work. He would close youth clubs and push up the price of leisure facilities in the name of profit.

Mr. Stephen Day (Cheadle) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Michael : The hon. Gentleman should listen to the end of this point. After that, I shall allow him to intervene.

Such a lunatic Prime Minister would mess about with the education service and demoralise those who teach the young. He would cut training opportunities for young people and show them a dead end. He would abolish benefit for 16 and 17-year-olds and cut finances of local authorities, to diminish the chance of positive habits being inculcated at the nursery stage. He would squeeze the finances that are available for work with young offenders, thereby preventing them from being redirected into more positive activities.

Such a Prime Minister might cut drug education and other schemes that try to make youngsters understand the dangerous world in which they are growing up. He would certainly stop providing new homes, thus driving people into homelessness or unsavoury living conditions, making it less likely that the family will survive as a unit. He might send young people to adult prisons to pick up bad habits. He might freeze police numbers and limit police cash to stop them winning their battle against crime. He would encourage selfishness and set people to compete against each other, to avoid the danger that they might co-operate. Then he would blame the victims, the parents, the police and the community for all those ills, hoping that, in fighting each other, they might forget to blame him.

Mr. Day : The hon. Gentleman repeated an assertion that is often made by the Opposition, that somehow the crime wave is linked to social deprivation.

Mr. Tony Banks : The police say that.

Mr. Day : Perhaps I could be allowed to continue. The hon. Gentleman must recognise that the undoubted social deprivation in some parts of our society is as nothing compared with the social deprivation of my grandfather who was unemployed throughout most of the 1930s. He held a family of six children together and no benefits were available. That generation had belief in itself and dignity. What has happened to the dignity of the Jarrow marchers that the hon. Gentleman should honour? Why does he make excuses when people take actions for which there are no excuses?

Mr. Michael : If the hon. Gentleman had not been so intent on intervening, he would have heard me say that social factors do not excuse crime but they need to be

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understood. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to reflect on the fact that if the references to the social causes are weasel words, they are being made by chief police officers throughout the country, by the Archbishop of Canterbury and by the Home Secretary. They are certainly weasel words by the Home Secretary, because he and his Cabinet colleagues do nothing to tackle these problems.

The whole problem needs to be tackled. We have not got matters out of proportion. We say that the whole picture--from social causes to firm dealings with serious and repetitive offenders--needs to be tackled. I have suggested what a lunatic Prime Minister who wanted to increase crime would do. It all sounds rather familiar because it is what the Conservative party has been doing for the past 14 years. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theory or the mad dictator theory. I just think that we have an incompetent Government who have lost their way. That is why I offer our formula for success in the fight against crime. I shall do so briefly because interventions have lengthened my speech.

First, we ask the Government to accept that there is a crisis of confidence and that they must provide a national strategy that respects and supports a dynamic partnership at local level. It is unfortunate that the Government have not adopted that approach. Secondly, the Government need to speed up the criminal justice system. They must ensure that there are quick decisions in dealing with juvenile offending. If there is an immediate response to offending we shall be more likely to win the battle against youth crime. Thirdly, we need to ensure that a range of options is available early and effectively. I have in mind support schemes to make cautioning work, bail enforcement schemes, early intervention to make offenders face their responsibilities and the reparation order that we suggested in our recent proposals. In other words, there must be tough and demanding approaches in the community to take a grip on youth crime.

Fourthly, we must recognise the impact of Government policy and reverse the cuts in the youth service that we experienced last year and which will be experienced again this year. We must improve housing and increase education and training opportunities. Fifthly, it is necessary to recreate the sense of community, citizenship and mutual responsibilities, which Opposition Members value and nurture in our communities. All these things need to be backed by a dynamic partnership between the police, the local authority and the community. With that, there will be a chance of reuniting people in the fight against crime.

I ask the Government to accept that while good leadership by a local authority and high-quality policing can achieve miracles for a time, it is vital that the Government accept responsibility and launch a national strategy that is designed to fight crime. They must provide the resources that will be needed for a local fight back by local people. We bear the cost anyway. The cost of car insurance has increased by 20 per cent. this year, as has the cost of house insurance. We pay for the increase in crime as we take money from our pockets, and we do so in other ways.

People throughout the United Kingdom demand that the Government recognise their responsibility to lead the fight against crime. They demand that the Government develop a coherent strategy to prevent crime, to divert youngsters from crime, to intervene quickly when

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youngsters start offending and to offer opportunities to leave the path of crime. They must be tough in the community and out of it in dealing with those who will not respond. On every one of these tests, the Government are failing.

I ask the Government to recognise the strength and wisdom that lie behind the demand of my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield that they should be tough on crime and, at the same time, tough on the causes of crime. I hope that Ministers will be big enough to admit that Conservatism in recent years has failed and that Labour's radical and practical approach to crime offers the best chance of success, from imprisonment to crime prevention.

I have concentrated on youth crime because it is the area of crime with the greatest potential for speedy intervention. As we face the challenges of Europe sans frontie res, of computer crime, satellite sex, video violence, international business crime and terrorism, we must remember that the bulk of crime takes place at local level among families and communities whose cohesion has been stretched to breaking point. The present generation of young people need help now, as will the young people who will follow it.

10.44 am

Sir Peter Emery (Honiton) : It would be wrong if I did not welcome the parts of the speech of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench, that showed a considerable conversion by the Labour party. It seems that it is prepared to work to strengthen action against crime. That has not always been its stance.

On this issue, the country does not want party polemics. Those who sit on the Front Benches must work in co-operation to deal with a national problem. All our constituents want to see positive action to reduce all aspects of crime. I shall make three short points before talking about crime prevention. I am sorry that there has been no reference so far to crimes that are committed by those who are on bail. There is a great need to ensure that those who are on bail do not reoffend. The sentencing policy that is directed to them must be strengthened. We must do everything possible by means of harsh sentencing to ensure that we do not have to do away with the bail system. We must discourage those who are on bail from committing another crime.

Mr. Michael Stephen (Shoreham) : Will my right hon. Friend support my private Member's Bill, the Bail (Amendment) Bill, which would give the prosecution a right of appeal if magistrates granted bail against police advice? It would also reverse the burden of proof in the cases of those who, in the past 10 years, have committed offences while on bail.

Sir Peter Emery : I compliment my hon. Friend on his intervention. He knows the answer to his question. He wrote to me and I gave him an assurance that I would support his Bill. I am pleased to have the opportunity publicly to confirm my support.

I ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to bear in mind that Home Office-approved secure accommodation is not being used in some instances. Netherton Hall in my constituency is near to closure

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because local authorities are not sending offenders to it. There is a need for secure accommodation and we should ensure that it is used properly.

I urge the Home Office to encourage chief constables to promote what I call mobile foot patrols. The one feature of policing that gives the greatest confidence to our constituents is the bobby on the beat. How do we make that even more effective? I suggest that we should have a system where two police officers drive a panda car to different areas, park it and then spend half an hour or two hours patrolling an estate or town on foot. They would then return to the car and drive to another area and repeat the operation.

Areas should be selected on a random basis. It should not be know that the officers will be seen at a certain corner outside a pub every Thursday. For example, they could just turn up in a farming area and take potential criminals by surprise. Their arrival would be unknown to the public. That would ensure that the criminal could never be certain that a hand would not fall on his shoulder, followed by the question, "Here, what are you up to?" Our constituents, especially the elderly, would be given confidence by the presence of police officers. They would see that there are police about who will be able to assist them whenever that is necessary.

Mr. Wolfson : Is my right hon. Friend aware of a factor that brings home to everybody the level of crime that can exist not so far from London as well as within London? The police have told me that they cannot always leave a police car unattended in the high street in some towns because it would be vandalised immediately. That is not to detract from his suggestion. I merely wish to emphasise the seriousness of the situation.

Sir Peter Emery : I accept that that is disgraceful. I believe, however, that that is the position in only a minority of individual areas. I do not think that such vandalism would occur in the majority of places. If it did, the police would have to use bicycles in city areas rather than cars. After all, the police used to use bicycles. We do not often see police officers on bicycles these days. The country must aim at more crime prevention. It is no use dealing just with measures to cure the illness of crime--we should take positive steps to cure the factors that cause it. The law alone is not the only means of crime prevention. At my surgeries over many years, young mothers have asked me, "How do we teach our children a code of conduct? How do we tell them how to behave?" The law does not communicate that knowledge to the ordinary adolescent or young family.

Of course, the family itself has a major role, as does education, but I was sorry that my hon. Friend the Minister did not mention the part that the Church can play in bringing about an understood code of conduct and behaviour.

I tried to persuade my own bishop of that--and have taken the matter up with the Archbishop of Canterbury. The answer I received was that observance of the first and third commandment is all that is needed. That does not mean anything to today's young people--that is not a lesson they can understand. They want someone to spell out the way that they should behave in society--sexually, in respect of drugs, and even when driving a car.

One sees amazing aggression among car drivers today--the bad language that flows when someone overtakes

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you, or if one complains when a motor cyclist cuts in front. If one did the same, the other road users would go crazy--but if one mentions such an incident in any way on pulling up at traffic lights, for example, the other motorist becomes aggressive.

Such a code of conduct should cover not only theft, good and evil, and Christian behaviour but general behaviour in society so that young people know of the standards at which they should aim. Of course, we all fall down. Many of us will be sinners at different times, but there must be a code to which people can aspire, towards which parents can guide their children, and which the Church can begin advocating.

Such a code cannot emanate only from politicians, because, as we have seen in today's debate, there will always be arguments across the Floor of the House. If we suggest something according to the Conservative code, Labour will suggest something else. The source of such a code must command universal support.

The code also cannot come only from teachers because educationists do not have the respect in the community that they once had. There is a role for not just the Church of England but all churches in setting out a code for the benefit of parents and of society generally.

Mr. Harry Greenway : One of the commandments to which my right hon. Friend alluded but did not enunciate was

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

If that commandment is respected, would not that have complete implications in achieving good behaviour in a good society?

Sir Peter Emery : Of course my hon. Friend's observation is accurate as far as it goes, but we must spell out how that works. People need to know how one should behave towards women and in society generally, person to person--in respect of feelings of homosexuality, and so on. Right and wrong must be spelt out in a way that they are not.

The Home Office is not the body to do that. We ought to challenge the churches to collaborate in devising a code of conduct to which society could aspire. If that can be achieved, efforts at crime prevention will be much more successful than they are at present. 10.54 am

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